Thread: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/e_sess Proposals are due on February 9, 2004, and it would be nice to see a lot of PostgreSQL talks there. The talk can be about anything relating to PostgreSQL; it does not matter if you have never even read the source code. Talk about how to set it up on Win32, how your company converted from Sybase to PostgreSQL, a neat project you built with PostgreSQL as the backend, etc. Feel free to post your ideas on the advocacy list (and post replies to that list, please). Even if you are not interested in speaking, let everyone know what you would like to hear, and perhaps it will inspire somebody. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312182022 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/4mNvvJuQZxSWSsgRArexAKCsf/cZ89ikr7gEPdsCWLazvOJw+wCg343A yG0KiL+kDliJng56ZeyRZGY= =0Gdv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Greg, > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track: Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me seperately today. Just one of us should be the contact point. Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this? I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Greg, > Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me > seperately today. Just one of us should be the contact point. Hmmm ... not sure that came out right. I meant "you wanna be the contact point? If so, I should tell O'Reilly" -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> > >I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going >to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, >rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly. > > > What about nilly-willy? -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge of which postgres people are speaking. I am planning on submitting a talk as I did last year. It would help us coordinate the BOF better. We did not do a good job last year. It would also help us talk about some of the things that could be better this year than last. I have some (ahem) opinions about this. It would also help those of us from different coasts spend some time talking at reasonable hours and places I would be happy to help coordinate people in whatever way I can for the actual fling. This does not have anything to do with who is talking to O'Reilly by the way. Remember, they had a single point of contact failure last year and caused some hard feelings. It is *good* that they've sent out notices to several of us. Now we just have to act like we are sort of coordinated... --elein On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 07:15:27PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > >I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's > >going to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL > >this time, rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly. > > > > > > > What about nilly-willy? > > > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
elein wrote: > It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge > of which postgres people are speaking. I am > planning on submitting a talk as I did last year. I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome): - contrib build system basics - building a simple scalar function - I/O functions and a building custom datatype - simple polymorphic scalar functions - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api - SRF using a tuplestore I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones. > It would help us coordinate the BOF better. > We did not do a good job last year. It would > also help us talk about some of the things that > could be better this year than last. I have some > (ahem) opinions about this. Great -- let's hear 'em ;-) Joe
On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote: > elein wrote: > >It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge > >of which postgres people are speaking. I am > >planning on submitting a talk as I did last year. > > I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL > with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome): > - contrib build system basics > - building a simple scalar function > - I/O functions and a building custom datatype > - simple polymorphic scalar functions > - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api > - SRF using a tuplestore This was the tutorial I submitted last year that was rejected. Perhaps we will all have better luck this year. Add the explanation of the many macros. They and the internal represenations of data types (varlenas :-) are not familiar or obvious to others. (I'll go through my notes for other ideas.) > > I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use > of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones. > > >It would help us coordinate the BOF better. > >We did not do a good job last year. It would > >also help us talk about some of the things that > >could be better this year than last. I have some > >(ahem) opinions about this. > > Great -- let's hear 'em ;-) In the next message... > > Joe >
On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote: > elein wrote: > >It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge > >of which postgres people are speaking. I am > >planning on submitting a talk as I did last year. > > I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL > with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome): > - contrib build system basics > - building a simple scalar function > - I/O functions and a building custom datatype > - simple polymorphic scalar functions > - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api > - SRF using a tuplestore > > I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use > of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones. > > >It would help us coordinate the BOF better. > >We did not do a good job last year. It would > >also help us talk about some of the things that > >could be better this year than last. I have some > >(ahem) opinions about this. > > Great -- let's hear 'em ;-) > > Joe > From General Bits Issue #34: ( http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/34 ) PostgreSQL people were not particularly visible in the general milieu of the conference. We were there, but not seen too much. Several of the talks in the conference and discussions in our birds of a feather session pointed out that open source projects need to establish relationships with other open source organizations. I know that some of us are members of more than one open source group, but for the most part, we remain fairly isolated. Talk to each other. Reason things out. This is open source so steal ideas that work! For example, we need to have more visible, vocal and active user groups across the world, including the United States. And perl-mongers is quite successful. What advice can we get from them? The establishment of relationships between people and groups was raised in many different contexts at the conference. PostgreSQL, the database, particularly plays well with others. Is there something in this that we can use to promote our favorite database? One mistake that was made at least once was to bad mouth the perceived competition. Venting one's frustration is one thing, but, particularly with our minimal visibility, we must make a good impression. Also to be noted (not from general bits): I was the only one who hung out in the speaker room. This is a key place where contacts with leaders of other groups can be made. This is a good place to make a good impression. We'll need to come into OSCON as a cohesive yet diverse group and then show a united face and integrate with other people and groups. Doing the people thing is hard for a lot of us. But individually my experience is that everyone I've met with postgresql is very knowledgeable, friendly and personable. Specific Ideas: * Pre-plan the BOF. Make sure it is in the printed schedule. * "Sponsor" a social outing. A postgres dinner, bar hours or a walk along the river. * Make sure all postgres speakers and tutorial instructors are well "marked" as such. T-shirts or SIG stickers, I suppose. Or just clear and readable badges. * Attend sessions besides postgres and: - interject how the project relates or could relate to postgres, tactfully - see how people hold good (and bad) sessions - listen to see what people are talking about and how that will integrate in your work and with postgres possibilities. * Have a booth (Josh, can we have a little booth?) or a corner staffed by someone who can provide information and help people find answers to questions about postgres. Obviously there is always more to be done. But at very least we should focus on visibility and friendliness. elein
On Friday 19 December 2003 08:22, Josh Berkus wrote: > Greg, > > > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly > > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track: > > Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me > seperately today. Just one of us should be the contact point. > > Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this? > > I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's > going to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL > this time, rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly. We need a central task tracking system rather than mailing list. We have discussed this before as well (I think) Mailing list is not the way to go at it.. Something like OGO(open groupware) would be good enough I guess.. Shridhar
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted to share that with the community. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/4unYvJuQZxSWSsgRAgOUAKCGz9GmirorxvFA9q8qGyHenI0QBACaA/gg v1qHgFl1fwI/eS3Ni6rAK5w= =UWV5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anybody here got a running correspondance with chromatic? Who ever does should be the one Robert Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I >just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted >to share that with the community. > >- -- >Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com >PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >iD8DBQE/4unYvJuQZxSWSsgRAgOUAKCGz9GmirorxvFA9q8qGyHenI0QBACaA/gg >v1qHgFl1fwI/eS3Ni6rAK5w= >=UWV5 >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > > >
Folks, > This does not have anything to do with who is talking > to O'Reilly by the way. Remember, they had a single > point of contact failure last year and caused some > hard feelings. It is *good* that they've sent out > notices to several of us. Now we just have to act > like we are sort of coordinated... Yeah, it's just that they asked me yesterday if I was the "official" contact. I do think that one person (picked by us) should talk to O'Reilly. Otherwise they're liable to receive multiple messages and get confused. > Who's funding whom to do what at the conference? Um ... funding? I'm paying my own way; I presume that Bruce will get paid for by his employer; otherwise we're pay-as-you-go. We probably have a little money for printing stuff (like a few $100) but that's it. Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into gear. Greg? What's our status for setup? > Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I > just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted > to share that with the community. Sorry, Greg. I thought you worked with them and might want to be the contact. > We need a central task tracking system rather than mailing list. We have > discussed this before as well (I think) > > Mailing list is not the way to go at it.. Something like OGO(open > groupware) would be good enough I guess.. I don't remember this discussion, Shridhar. You have a server we can get accounts on? I do think that some sort of collaboration system is a good idea, but not if we spend effort on the collaboration system that could be spent on prep. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Hello, As OSCON is in Portland (I think?). I might also be willing to host an informal get together here at Command Prompt for everyone. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake elein wrote: >On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote: > > >>elein wrote: >> >> >>>It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge >>>of which postgres people are speaking. I am >>>planning on submitting a talk as I did last year. >>> >>> >>I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL >>with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome): >> - contrib build system basics >> - building a simple scalar function >> - I/O functions and a building custom datatype >> - simple polymorphic scalar functions >> - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api >> - SRF using a tuplestore >> >> > >This was the tutorial I submitted last year that was rejected. >Perhaps we will all have better luck this year. >Add the explanation of the many macros. They and >the internal represenations of data types (varlenas :-) >are not familiar or obvious to others. (I'll go >through my notes for other ideas.) > > > >>I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use >> of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones. >> >> >> >>>It would help us coordinate the BOF better. >>>We did not do a good job last year. It would >>>also help us talk about some of the things that >>>could be better this year than last. I have some >>>(ahem) opinions about this. >>> >>> >>Great -- let's hear 'em ;-) >> >> > >In the next message... > > >>Joe >> >> >> -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Robert Bernier wrote: > > Anybody here got a running correspondance with chromatic? Who ever > does should be the one > I talk with chromatic occassionaly. In fact I just sent a list of authors over. J > Robert > > > > Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I >> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted >> to share that with the community. >> >> - -- >> Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com >> PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706 >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> iD8DBQE/4unYvJuQZxSWSsgRAgOUAKCGz9GmirorxvFA9q8qGyHenI0QBACaA/gg >> v1qHgFl1fwI/eS3Ni6rAK5w= >> =UWV5 >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 21:52, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Greg,
>
> > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
>
> Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me
> seperately today. Just one of us should be the contact point.
>
> Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this?
>
> I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going
> to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time,
> rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
>
Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have
mentioned to me or I have been kicking around:
Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features,
set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find
add-on software,
PostgreSQL on Windows - Showcase postgresql native windows (hopefully),
explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information.
From LRU to ARC - explain the changes involved in the switch and the
reasoning behind it.
Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 - explain how it all works
Optimizing PostgreSQL queries - explain output of explain commands and
what too look for in them. Also go over logging options that can help
PostgreSQL Advanced Tools and Tricks - examples of using complex
functions / data types / operators, using rules to make updateable
views, using triggers to make materialized views.
Replication - give a run down of various replication solutions,
including rserv in contrib, and rserve/slony from gborg. Potentially
highlight commercial offerings.
PostGIS - explain what it is, how you use it, how it's handy.
DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this,
also some items in contrib.
PostgreSQL war stories - A good example is the .org registry, but it's
been done, so showcase another "enterprise level" setup, or perhaps a
migration from Oracle/DB2/m$
Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these?
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert Treat wrote: [snip] > DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this, > also some items in contrib. [snip] > > Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these? I was considering this one for a 45 minute presentation. Joe
I like Joe's ideas about presentations on the
specific PLs. This crosses over with Robert's
idea about advanced Tools and Tricks.
So...I'm considering both a talk and a tutorial
proposal. I can't decide yet exactly what
I'm going to do, yet, but I need to put it
out so that if someone else wants one of
these topics we can either work together
or figure out who wants to do what.
* What is a ORDBMS? And how does postgresql
implement it? (talk)
* Advanced plpgsql (talk or tutorial)
* Basic plpython (talk or tutorial)
* Intro to postgresql (tutorial)
* Creating new datatypes (this might conflict
with Joe's tutorial). (tutorial)
--elein
On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 01:41:15PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 21:52, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Greg,
> >
> > > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> > > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
> >
> > Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me
> > seperately today. Just one of us should be the contact point.
> >
> > Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this?
> >
> > I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going
> > to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time,
> > rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
> >
>
> Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have
> mentioned to me or I have been kicking around:
>
> Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features,
> set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find
> add-on software,
>
> PostgreSQL on Windows - Showcase postgresql native windows (hopefully),
> explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information.
>
> >From LRU to ARC - explain the changes involved in the switch and the
> reasoning behind it.
>
> Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 - explain how it all works
>
> Optimizing PostgreSQL queries - explain output of explain commands and
> what too look for in them. Also go over logging options that can help
>
> PostgreSQL Advanced Tools and Tricks - examples of using complex
> functions / data types / operators, using rules to make updateable
> views, using triggers to make materialized views.
>
> Replication - give a run down of various replication solutions,
> including rserv in contrib, and rserve/slony from gborg. Potentially
> highlight commercial offerings.
>
> PostGIS - explain what it is, how you use it, how it's handy.
>
> DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this,
> also some items in contrib.
>
> PostgreSQL war stories - A good example is the .org registry, but it's
> been done, so showcase another "enterprise level" setup, or perhaps a
> migration from Oracle/DB2/m$
>
>
>
> Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these?
>
>
> Robert Treat
> --
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 14:32, elein wrote:
> I like Joe's ideas about presentations on the
> specific PLs. This crosses over with Robert's
> idea about advanced Tools and Tricks.
>
> * Advanced plpgsql (talk or tutorial)
> * Basic plpython (talk or tutorial)
One talk that I think would be sure to be accepted would be something on
plphp, but I haven't personally found any great uses for it. Joe's talk
last year on plR made a lot of sense, since it covered a lot of items
that you really couldn't do in the other pl's. However, with
plphp/pltcl/plpython/plperl I don't see anything that stands out.
Perhaps I should take a swing through your talk from last year on
plpython...is it on the web anywhere?
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert, > One talk that I think would be sure to be accepted would be something on > plphp, but I haven't personally found any great uses for it. Well, until PL/PHP gets SPI, it's pretty much a toy. Joshua, how likely is PL/PHP to have SPI before OSCON? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
>Well, until PL/PHP gets SPI, it's pretty much a toy. Joshua, how likely is >PL/PHP to have SPI before OSCON? > > > In july? Extremely likely as well as plPerl. -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > > This does not have anything to do with who is talking > > to O'Reilly by the way. Remember, they had a single > > point of contact failure last year and caused some > > hard feelings. It is *good* that they've sent out > > notices to several of us. Now we just have to act > > like we are sort of coordinated... > > Yeah, it's just that they asked me yesterday if I was the "official" contact. > I do think that one person (picked by us) should talk to O'Reilly. Otherwise > they're liable to receive multiple messages and get confused. > > > Who's funding whom to do what at the conference? > > Um ... funding? I'm paying my own way; I presume that Bruce will get paid > for by his employer; otherwise we're pay-as-you-go. We probably have a > little money for printing stuff (like a few $100) but that's it. I never get funding from SRA for these trips (except Japan) --- the presenters usually pay for my trip. In the O'Reilly case, I usually get paid for a tutorial, but I don't think I am going to be sending in a tutorial proposal this year to encourage others to make presentations. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have > mentioned to me or I have been kicking around: > > Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features, > set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find > add-on software, > > PostgreSQL on Windows - Showcase postgresql native windows > (hopefully), > explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information. > > From LRU to ARC - explain the changes involved in the switch and the > reasoning behind it. > > Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 - explain how it all works I would be willing to give a talk on tsearch2 at the 2004 O'Reilly Open Source Conference. I'm using tsearch2 on some projects at work. I would defer though to the authors of the software or documentation, or anyone else with more experience. George Essig
On Friday 19 December 2003 23:09, Josh Berkus wrote: > I don't remember this discussion, Shridhar. You have a server we can get > accounts on? I do think that some sort of collaboration system is a good > idea, but not if we spend effort on the collaboration system that could be > spent on prep. I agree with you. Unfortunately I don't have access to any servers. In fact I don't have home internet connectivity as yet which hinders(a lot) whatever I could do for postgresql..:-( Hope to get it sometime soon.. Shridhar
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into > gear. Greg? What's our status for setup? My goal is to have everything done by January 31st. >> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I >> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted >> to share that with the community. > > Sorry, Greg. I thought you worked with them and might want to be > the contact. I didn't know we had an official contact per se, but if we did, I always assumed it was Bruce. Wasn't he involved in it last year? FWIW, I know a few people at O'Reilly (including chromatic). Things I would really, really like to see at OSCON: * PostgreSQL t-shirts. (I've done some research on this - separate thread?) * State of the union address for PostgreSQL. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312201027 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/5GqKvJuQZxSWSsgRAgvRAKC29WI+6YSfOW5clElEfi4q4JVsXwCg1OZs OBSkmw+aFB3P9w6Yn3M8dBk= =DDZk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: [ There is text before PGP section. ] > [ PGP not available, raw data follows ] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into > > gear. Greg? What's our status for setup? > > My goal is to have everything done by January 31st. > > >> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I > >> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted > >> to share that with the community. > > > > Sorry, Greg. I thought you worked with them and might want to be > > the contact. > > I didn't know we had an official contact per se, but if we did, I > always assumed it was Bruce. Wasn't he involved in it last year? > FWIW, I know a few people at O'Reilly (including chromatic). > > Things I would really, really like to see at OSCON: > > * PostgreSQL t-shirts. (I've done some research on this - separate thread?) > > * State of the union address for PostgreSQL. No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the contact now. I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have other people involved. Perhaps I should continue going to the events that need me to attend. Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good hands. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
>>Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into >>gear. Greg? What's our status for setup? > > > My goal is to have everything done by January 31st. Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations' system whereby people can donate money to projects. Maybe you want to enable it on the PostgreSQL project. We at the phpPgAdmin project don't really have any use for donations, but we could just forward them all through to the PostgreSQL project? Would this be at all useful? Chris
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > >>Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into > >>gear. Greg? What's our status for setup? > > > > > > My goal is to have everything done by January 31st. > > Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations' > system whereby people can donate money to projects. Maybe you want to > enable it on the PostgreSQL project. > > We at the phpPgAdmin project don't really have any use for donations, > but we could just forward them all through to the PostgreSQL project? > > Would this be at all useful? Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through paypal.Would this be at all useful?Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?
---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > >> > >>Would this be at all useful? > >> > >> > > > >Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you > >lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge? > > > > > > > If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through > paypal. I'd rather pay the high fees and actually have access to the money ... Paypal I'm 110% *against* ... they have had *way* too many problems. In fact, there was a time when we ourselves setup the whole paypal account and were looking at moving to it, until our clients started telling us they wouldn't use it. We, as a business, have had something like 25 "new clients" sign up in the past month that its turning out are cards stolen from clients who made purchases through paypal in the recent past ... We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found to have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints about their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about our current one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the way of fees ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On 21 Dec 2003 at 18:09, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card > services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a > company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found > to have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints > about their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about > our current one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the > way of fees ... I have been using http://www.nstarsolutions.com/ for several years. I recommend them for credit card payments. They suit my needs. YMMV. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Dan Langille wrote: > On 21 Dec 2003 at 18:09, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card > > services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a > > company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found > > to have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints > > about their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about > > our current one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the > > way of fees ... > > I have been using http://www.nstarsolutions.com/ for several years. > I recommend them for credit card payments. They suit my needs. YMMV. They look like an e-commerce outsourcing site, and not just credit card processing ... rates look reasonable, though, and they don't look like they have a 'monthly fee' associated with their service(s), based on their 'Special Features' page? The fun part, we found, is there are sooooo many options available now, compared to even a couple of years ago ... comparison shop'ng tends to be fun :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, George Essig wrote: > > Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have > > mentioned to me or I have been kicking around: > > > > Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features, > > set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find > > add-on software, > > > > PostgreSQL on Windows - Showcase postgresql native windows > > (hopefully), > > explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information. > > > > From LRU to ARC - explain the changes involved in the switch and the > > reasoning behind it. > > > > Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 - explain how it all works > > I would be willing to give a talk on tsearch2 at the 2004 O'Reilly Open Source Conference. I'm > using tsearch2 on some projects at work. I would defer though to the authors of the software or > documentation, or anyone else with more experience. George, we (me and Teodor), would be happy to help you in preparing your talk about tsearch2. There are many tips and tricks we learned from peoples experience. Also, it would be useful to describe OpenFTS which uses now tsearch2. > > George Essig > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > OpenFTS-general mailing list > OpenFTS-general@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openfts-general > Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet, Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia) Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes:
> Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations'
> system whereby people can donate money to projects. Maybe you want to
> enable it on the PostgreSQL project.
Uh ... there is no PostgreSQL project on SourceForge, AFAIK.
regards, tom lane
>I'd rather pay the high fees and actually have access to the money ... >Paypal I'm 110% *against* ... they have had *way* too many problems. In >fact, there was a time when we ourselves setup the whole paypal account >and were looking at moving to it, until our clients started telling us >they wouldn't use it. We, as a business, have had something like 25 "new >clients" sign up in the past month that its turning out are cards stolen >from clients who made purchases through paypal in the recent past ... > > All due respect but that is just bad mojo in general. We have had zero problems with paypal. We also don't use them as our primary payment. We use a real merchant account and checking account for that. However paypal is good for a lot of things. Namely you want to provide the most ways to get paid (perfect for donations). It has also greatly increased its security and viability sense that really big billion dollar company call E-bay bought it. >We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card >services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a >company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found to > > We use Echo, which also accepts electronic check but remember we are talking about donations here, not a for profit accepting credit cards. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints about >their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about our current >one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the way of fees ... > >---- >Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) >Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
On 22 Dec 2003 at 9:31, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > All due respect but that is just bad mojo in general. We have had zero > problems with paypal. We also don't use them as our primary payment. > We use a real merchant account and checking account for that. and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the > contact now. Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union? > I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have > other people involved. Perhaps I should continue going to the events > that need me to attend. Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good > hands. Good one, Bruce! :) Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312302225 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/8kHevJuQZxSWSsgRAnyAAKDMiYEiQF/kXl7MdIuqGaR/efePuQCgq/ER AmFAtrw7Na6x5wHXsEJlScY= =knrg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: [ There is text before PGP section. ] > [ PGP not available, raw data follows ] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the > > contact now. > > Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union? > > > I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have > > other people involved. Perhaps I should continue going to the events > > that need me to attend. Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good > > hands. > > Good one, Bruce! :) > > Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face > of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed. I was hoping no one would say that. :-) Anyway, I will not submit any presentations, and let's see where I have to be in July. If there isn't anything else, I will try to go to O'Reilly. I know LinuxTag is coming, I think in July, so I am not sure. Anyway, it seems like there is a critical mass of folks at O'Reilly that the event will be a success no matter what. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> > No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the > > contact now. > > Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union? Me Josh or JoshB? J > > > I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have > > other people involved. Perhaps I should continue going to the events > > that need me to attend. Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good > > hands. > > Good one, Bruce! :) > > Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face > of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed. > > - -- > Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com > PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312302225 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iD8DBQE/8kHevJuQZxSWSsgRAnyAAKDMiYEiQF/kXl7MdIuqGaR/efePuQCgq/ER > AmFAtrw7Na6x5wHXsEJlScY= > =knrg > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >>> No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the >> contact now. >> >> Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union? > Me Josh or JoshB? Um, whichever Josh that Bruce was referring to when I quoted him. :) (Pretty sure that it was the other Josh) - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312310658 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/8rqpvJuQZxSWSsgRAnvqAKDiB2VRDrrNs9/Akftkt2MwJ+GRvwCdE3ua E481JoGraVT+dq81S2hYwqg= =roW6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Guys, > Um, whichever Josh that Bruce was referring to when I quoted him. :) > (Pretty sure that it was the other Josh) Me, I think. Sorry, I've been out of town. I will be trying to coordinate this next week, since I definitely will be going to OSCON. What deal does OSCON offer speakers? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
All expenses paid plus spending allowance for those people who do tutorials (3hr, 6hr sessions) By the way it seems I have a shot of being accepted to putting on a half day lecture on data mining using postgres. Stay tuned :-) Josh Berkus wrote: >What deal does OSCON offer speakers? > > >
Guys, > and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. Most of us are remembering the Abiword debacle, where a someone robbed Abiword's donations account by exploiting a known flaw in Paypal's system, and when the Abiword people complained Paypal cancelled their account and threatened them with litigation. Despite the change of management at Paypal, neither an apology nor a restoration of funds has been made to Abiword. Also, Paypal continues to require an agreement which says that they are not responsible for malfeasance even by one of their employees or because failure to fix a known security flaw. And EBay hasn't exactly had a stellar track record when it comes to fraud claims. While on a risk management side, we can simple clear our Paypal account weekly and be relatively safe. But I'm quite set against validating Paypal's way of doing business by using them. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: >Guys, > > > >>and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. >> >> > >Most of us are remembering the Abiword debacle, where a someone robbed >Abiword's donations account by exploiting a known flaw in Paypal's system, >and when the Abiword people complained Paypal cancelled their account and >threatened them with litigation. Despite the change of management at Paypal, >neither an apology nor a restoration of funds has been made to Abiword. > > That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see: http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > What deal does OSCON offer speakers? - From the page at http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/e_sess "All presenters whose talks are accepted (excluding Lightning Talks) will receive free registration at the conference. For each half-day tutorial, the presenter receives one night's accommodation, a limited travel allowance, and an honorarium. We give tutors and speakers registration to the convention, and tutors are eligible for a travel allowance: up to US$300 from the west coast of the USA, up to US$500 from the east coast of the USA, up to US$800 from outside the USA." All in all, a very good deal. Let's see lots of PostgreSQL proposals! - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200401060653 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/+qKlvJuQZxSWSsgRAmHVAJ9vP8prk/pp6TMZ43rzlSDxXqQI9ACdFqij 4EDAS9Pu+A0AOBqYRdIJo+Y= =5L/C -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Josh, > That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see: > > http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml Hmmm... odd. I talked to one of the Abiword people about it just in November, and they said that the money was never returned. Will ask for clarification. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh, > That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see: > > http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml Odd. I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never returned; I will contact them to clarify. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh: > Odd. I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never > returned; I will contact them to clarify. OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got slashdotted. Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal .... This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa. Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their "Kazaa Gold" service. We discussed it, and decided that participating in this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined. For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with them. Of course, I could be outvoted .... -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> > >For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through >PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, >the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would >not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with >them. > > > First let me say that I am not "voting" for PayPal as much as I am trying to make sure we make decisions based on actual facts. I do have question on this though... I read the PayPal terms of service and it seems to me that they are fairly upfront about their service. What is it that you feel is customer-abusive about their policies? Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >Of course, I could be outvoted .... > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 14:04, Josh Berkus wrote: > Josh: > > > Odd. I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never > > returned; I will contact them to clarify. > > OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or > event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got > slashdotted. > > Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal .... > > This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa. > Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their > "Kazaa Gold" service. We discussed it, and decided that participating in > this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on > Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined. > Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and bittorrent? > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through > PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with > them. > yeesh... given that AbiWord themselves still use paypal for donations (http://www.abisource.com/information/news/donation-abiword.phtml) I think that folks who avoid paypal based on that incident are off the mark. Not saying there aren't a lot of other reasons you might want to avoid using them, but if they're good enough for Abiword.... Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Josh, > What is it that you feel is customer-abusive about their policies? It's mostly in the 25-page Terms Of Service document, which I can no longer access without having an account (which I do not). More or less, it amounts to your having to agree that you are not entitled to collect any damages from Paypal less than $10,000 if they don't want to give them (to be specific, you have to be awarded damages by an arbitrator selected by Paypal). I have to admit that I've also heavily perused paypalsucks.com, and was discouraged by the number of reports there in 2002. And there's the class-action lawsuit still proceeding in California and Nebraska. However, looking at paypalsucks.com, the number of serious angry-customer reports seems to have decreased sharply in 2003. This may indicate a change of practice by Paypal in the wake of negative publicity. Also, apparently in a month they will be supervised by the British Financial Authority, which has *got* to mean some cleaning house. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Robert, > Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and > bittorrent? 1) Bittorrent provides a secure way to certify downloaded content an prevent viruses from being inserted in the distribution. The method offered through the Kazaa Gold service at the time of its introduction was believed to be easily circumvented. 2) At the time we made the decision, Kazaa was bundling spyware with thier client. I don't know whether they do now. 3) Also that season, Kazaa had been found to be a virus vector for Windows machines due to poor security code and they got a lot of (deserved) negative publicity for this. This issue has since been fixed. 4) Finally, Kazaa is used by some people to distribute digital content in violation of the owner's copyrights. The OOo steering committee felt that using Kazaa to distribute OpenOffice.org would create an association in the public mind between Open Source and music piracy; a perception that Microsoft was doing their best to encourage as well. Bittorrent has none of these issues. Were we to consider using Kazaa to distribute PostgreSQL (unlikely, since Kazaa is Windows-only) we would need to consider these issues carefully as well. And keep in mind that we did *not* reject Kazaa's offer outright, since Kazaa made the offer in good faith and they and some of our community though that it would be good for both OOo and Kazaa. As I recall, we debated it for the better part of a month. Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe we should drop it? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
It's mostly in the 25-page Terms Of Service document, which I can no longer access without having an account (which I do not).
You can access it right here:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside
They also include information about FDIC pass through insurance here:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fdic-outside
The above link also includes links to the banks where the money is kept and an
additional link to the user agreement.
And if we keep a balance with them, we can turn it into a Money Market account.
They even have a fairly extensive privacy policy.
Also per paypalsucks.com, although I have not read the entire site it appears to be
fairly inaccurate to real facts.
PaypalSucks says:
- It is difficult to find the phone number to Paypal:
It was very easy to find under About us, and under the privacy agreement. It was easier to find
their phone number than many other "Online Businesses"
- PaypalSucks says: According to PayPal accepting their ToS (Terms of Service) in effect means you waive your rights
- to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase -using your credit card and PayPal account that you are unsatisfied with. Is this legal? We don't know. But it's how - Paypal operates.
Actually paypal has extensive protection policies including buyer and seller which is a rarity. Visa for example HEAVILY
favors the buyer which is a real pain the but for a lot of legitamate business that deal with fraudulent customers.
Now all of this may be the way "it used to be", but I don't think that is the way it is anymore. Paypal has become
the preferred method of payment per Ebay (for obvious reasons) and that carries quite a bit of responsibility.
I am not saying they are perfect but EBay has done a lot of good things and I personally find that the good far
out weighs the bad.
It is kind of like the old saying, "One bad voice is heard by a million ears. A million good voices are only heard by one ear."
(o.k. I made that up, but I think you get might drift)
All bearing action against previous behavior (presumably before the Ebay buy out).I have to admit that I've also heavily perused paypalsucks.com, and was discouraged by the number of reports there in 2002. And there's the class-action lawsuit still proceeding in California and Nebraska.
Yes that is very true. I know that it will be alot easier for my international customers once they are firmlyHowever, looking at paypalsucks.com, the number of serious angry-customer reports seems to have decreased sharply in 2003. This may indicate a change of practice by Paypal in the wake of negative publicity. Also, apparently in a month they will be supervised by the British Financial Authority, which has *got* to mean some cleaning house.
entrenched in Europe.
The reason I think Paypal is not a bad idea is that most people I know have a paypal account. However,
if it is feasible we might as well just get a merchant account for the non profit. Then we could even accept
e-check.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> > >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and >bittorrent? > > > I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology. Where Kazaa is a business. Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should use every legal means possible to distribute their software. If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the gun maker? Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Josh Berkus wrote: > Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe > we should drop it? To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: What entity will receive the money? What will they do with it? What sort of public accounting will they have? How will cross-border money transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need my fingerprints? Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it. I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone can explain why they think they need to.
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 12:32:36 -0800, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > > Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe we should > drop it? I wouldn't say that. They are owned buy eBay which is known for having a low regard for user privacy, especially with regard to Law Enforcement fishing expeditions. The main thing going for Paypal is the network effect. If you used say e-Gold, a lot of people that might donate via Paypal probably wouldn't bother to set up an e-Gold account just to be able to send money electronicly.
Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for advocacy???To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: What entity will receive the money?
I would personally like to see it for things like professional documentation editing, shows/events,What will they do with it?
anything that has to do with advocating PostgreSQL
Well, I think (I would have to double check) that as a non profit you have to make your booksWhat sort of public accounting will they have?
public.
How will cross-border money transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need my fingerprints?
Only if you plan on flying in.
Well there are problems with bank wire.Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it. I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone can explain why they think they need to.
One: it is typically more expensive than using a credit card or paypal account.
Two: it is ridiculous to wire 5.00, where it is useful to paypal or credit card 5.00.
Three: with a wire, once the money is gone, it is gone. Zero recourse.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use > > are: What entity will receive the money? > > Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for > advocacy??? Oh really? When will the rest of us learn about that? Hopefully before it is set up?
Peter, > Oh really? When will the rest of us learn about that? Hopefully before > it is set up? We'll be discussing a mission statement and governance on this list (and others) at the end of this month, when we're ready to do something concrete about it. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Quoting Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>: > Josh Berkus wrote: > > Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe > > we should drop it? > > To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: > What entity will receive the money? What will they do with it? What > sort of public accounting will they have? How will cross-border money > transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need > my fingerprints? > > Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it. > I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone > can explain why they think they need to. > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match > I'm going second, third and forth this point. I'm kinda of the mindset we should be reviewing banks and how to set up a system ourself. 'Course that is not practical here however I don't like using a middleman either and wire are very easy and standard for me to deal with out of my companies business account. Plus it will be in my accounting reports. The only downside is that (at least for me) there is a fee. -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Josh: > > > Odd. I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never > > returned; I will contact them to clarify. > > OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or > event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got > slashdotted. Not this Marc, by the way .. :) > Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal .... > > This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa. > Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their > "Kazaa Gold" service. We discussed it, and decided that participating in > this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on > Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined. > > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through > PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with > them. > > Of course, I could be outvoted .... I'm still anti-Paypal, even more so after this ... I'd hate to have to see us, at some point, having to go the same route as abiword just to get at the money, *especially* if it is/was at a time when we were at the last minute on something .. imagine being at the last minute on paying for a booth at Comdex and finding out Paypal has arbitrarily locked our funds? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through > > PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, > > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would > > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with > > them. > > > > yeesh... given that AbiWord themselves still use paypal for donations > (http://www.abisource.com/information/news/donation-abiword.phtml) I > think that folks who avoid paypal based on that incident are off the > mark. Not saying there aren't a lot of other reasons you might want to > avoid using them, but if they're good enough for Abiword.... Josh, can you find out why, after everything they went through, they decided to stick with Paypal? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > 2) At the time we made the decision, Kazaa was bundling spyware with thier > client. I don't know whether they do now. I just spent my Xmas holidays clearing off at least a dozen spyware packages from Andrea's fathers computer that were installed when her brother installed Kazaa ... it was to the point where you couldn't browse the web for the popups that were being generated ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > > > >To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: > >What entity will receive the money? > > > Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for advocacy??? yes > >What will they do with it? > > > I would personally like to see it for things like professional > documentation editing, shows/events, > anything that has to do with advocating PostgreSQL this is the intent ... we'd like to be able to start funding booths and marketing material if we can ... > Three: with a wire, once the money is gone, it is gone. Zero recourse. Agreed, we've absorbed a few invoices as a result of a client swearing that the money was wired and they had proof of that, but we never received it :( ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>: > > > > > >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and > >bittorrent? > > > > > > > I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that > Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology. > Where Kazaa is a business. > > Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should > use every legal means possible to > distribute their software. > > If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the > gun maker? Hmmm, we'll I agree with that arguement but I don't think that is a good example. As a musician and owner of a publishing company also, I think the American retail commerical music market is grossly over priced- CDs are sometimes the same price as DVDs- PUHLEEEZZEE- the point of the matter is the kazaa is enabling- this like one of the top things for college student to do these days. From what I understand, last year RIAA and Kazaa regularly squared off on TechTV and the basically (this is 3rd party info so I could be wrong) the jist of things from Kazaa, "we know about the piracy and we don't care". I my mind his is more like buying a gun and the selling telling you how to get teflon coated ammo. Someone mentioned the "appearance" of things an I think that argument holds some weight. I think MS and many other people/orgs are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling blow- anything that will curtail growth and acceptance. Perfect example of ths is when SCO's stock shot way up when they announced their suit again Linux/IBM. Kazaa just has too much bad press in the recent past. One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you can do that an protect copywrites as well. > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and > >bittorrent? > > > > > > > I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that > Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology. > Where Kazaa is a business. > > Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should > use every legal means possible to > distribute their software. > > If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the > gun maker? But with Kazaa and the spyware, you could say the gun is faulty and why would you want to be associated with a faulty gun. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have. The reality is, people aren't honest.True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.
They are either stealing a pen from a bank, or an mp3 from the web. The only thing Kazaa has done is
make it so that the people that will steal pens from the bank can also steal music (images whatever) as easily
as they would steal that pen.
The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling within humans that they somehow deserve
something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not they have earned it. So you get this mindset
that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.
This is nothing new, people have been trading on Usenet, IRC and Archie (and these people are the primary culprits)
for a long time. I think that you would find that the majority of people that are in the "major" offense of mp3 trading are the same
people that have always and will always do it.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
Someone mention the "appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight. I think MS and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling blow. I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either. Especially since they were spywear at one point. One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you can do that an protect copywrites as well.Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.orgKP- ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without permission. If a person installsIf I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the gun maker?But with Kazaa and the spyware, you could say the gun is faulty and why would you want to be associated with a faulty gun.
Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without > permission. If a person installs > Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse. When we first moved to Panama, one of the servers on our network had gotten our IP block blacklisted for email on a *load* of lists (something that was quickly remedied by our provider by shutting down the site, as our provider is quite anti-spam as well) ... turns out that what ppl were downloading a client from them (voluntarily), and one of the steps in the installation procedure is a long license agreement ... turns out that one of the things you agree to in it is that the software can harvest email addresses off of your computer and make use of it for spamming purposes ... ... the trick: you had to actually read the license agreement to find this out ... and most ppl are lazy (I'm as guilty as the next) and don't read them, so altho they *agreed* with the license, they had no idea that the software was going to do this ... I've never installed Kazaa, so maybe they are more open about the Spyware it installs, but if its something that is "agreed to" inside of their license agreement, chances are, 99.9% of computer users will never see "the fine print" ... and even if they do read it, chances are they will gloss over it ... The point: Ignorance may not be an excuse, but we all tend to "trust" that the software we try to use, that is in use by millions of others, will be trustworthy software and not try to pull a swift one ... and, in this case, a swift one is burying a loophole into the license agreement about what the software can/will do :( ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Josh, > The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without > permission. If a person installs > Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse. So? It's still reason for OOo not to want to be associated with them, in the same way that we would not publicize a testimonial that Enron or Al Queda used OOo (though those are, of course, much more clear-cut). Same thing with the music piracy angle. Regardless of what we do, a certain number of execs think that Open Source must be stealing because it's "free". Authorizing a distribution service which also carries stolen property will simply encourage more execs to think this way and feed directly into Microsoft's marketing campaigns which paint Linux and OOo as "anti-capitalist". Mind you, Kazaa can distribute OOo whenever they wish but it was up to us whether we participated in their PR, and we decided not to. Given that you sell copyrighted material for a living, I find your attitude surprising. Or are you simply playing devil's advocate? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Which of course is OO's perogative... but Kazaa at least from what you were saying was trying toThe spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without permission. If a person installs Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.So? It's still reason for OOo not to want to be associated with them, in the same way that we would not publicize a testimonial that Enron or Al Queda used OOo (though those are, of course, much more clear-cut).
provide (agruably) a legitimate distribution channel for OO via a legitimate service. Especially since
OO is free, I don't see a problem with it.
Now on the flip side I think that distribution through Kazaa is going to help Kazaa more than it would
help OO... as Kazaa is more of a desparate need to prove that they are legitamite.
I have never actually ran into that. Not saying it exists, but most execs that I run into just don'tSame thing with the music piracy angle. Regardless of what we do, a certain number of execs think that Open Source must be stealing because it's "free".
understand how it works but usually it is more in the vein of "Why do it if its free"...
That is not exactly untrue. It is also not exactly a bad thing. Linux is anti-captilist to some degree.Microsoft's marketing campaigns which paint Linux and OOo as "anti-capitalist".
Linux is more socio-capitlism where the better good overrides the larger dollar. Today's capitalism doesn't
look that far. Although it should as the better good in the end will bring the larger dollar.
Part of it is Devil's Advocate. Part of it is irritation at being snowed in for over a week. Part of itMind you, Kazaa can distribute OOo whenever they wish but it was up to us whether we participated in their PR, and we decided not to. Given that you sell copyrighted material for a living, I find your attitude surprising. Or are you simply playing devil's advocate?
is me wanting to explore the argument further.
In reality I think that your choice specifically for Kazaa and OO was probably the right one. I didn't
realize that they wanted the whole PR thing. I wouldn't want that PR either. I thought it was more
of a "We don't want you do distribute OO" type of thing where I could see Kazaa actually doing
you some good.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Part of it is irritation at being snowed in for over a week. Cool ... I'm on the East Coast, and snow is the occasional flurry ... what's it like to actually be snowed in? And how is 'snowed in' defined in this case? For instance, when I was still a baby, my parents talk about snow so deep they had to go out the second story windows ... are you *that* snowed in? :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>Cool ... I'm on the East Coast, and snow is the occasional flurry ... >what's it like to actually be snowed in? And how is 'snowed in' defined >in this case? For instance, when I was still a baby, my parents talk >about snow so deep they had to go out the second story windows ... are you >*that* snowed in? :) > > > Well for some parts of the country I would be considered a Wimp but I will probably hit 2Ft by the end of tommorow. Everything was fine until my truck decided to slide into a ditch because of crusted (iced over) snow. Western Oregon doesn't typically get real snow beyond a couple of days and at max 2 inches... Well I am since Christmas Eve I have been able to make it into the office only twice... I am going slightly insane. Sincerely, Joshua Drake >---- >Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) >Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:51, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
> >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other
> > system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.
>
> I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have.
> The reality is, people aren't honest.
<snip>
> The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling
> within humans that they somehow deserve
> something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not
> they have earned it. So you get this mindset
> that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't
> hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
> last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.
>
Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture. Maybe
they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public domain"
of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are
tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured
border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem to
have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act. Maybe some
people see people building operating systems better than the biggest
commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have quality
music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to come.
Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning information.
Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil
disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of
the bottom line.
Or maybe not.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture. Maybe >they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public domain" >of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are >tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured >border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem to >have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act. > I have no problem with my retirement solution. I actually save money instead of spending it on 4 latte's a day. I buy used cars instead of new ones at 329.00 a month on my 1600.00 a month salary. I choose not to have cable so I can save 600.00 a year tax free towards retirement. I take the bus instead of drive everyday to save 75.00 a month on gas. I work a second job two days a week to cover my kids college. This isn't me, but it was once. I earned everything that I have through hard work and the grace of God. Life is a choice people. You make of it what you will. It is up to you to choose your direction and the things that you want. If you don't have something you want (prescription drugs for example) then change jobs. If you can't change jobs, organize with your fellow employees and walk out. Can't afford to walk out? Start taking night classes over the Internet.. Can't afford it? Why not? If you can't afford it legitamitely, then you will qualify for financial aid. Educate: Get a better job. Maybe some people are ignorant and lazy... Maybe some are a victim of circumstance. The latter is the rarity.. I am fat because I have to eat McDonalds.... > Maybe some >people see people building operating systems better than the biggest >commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have quality >music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to come. >Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning information. >Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil >disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of >the bottom line. > > > Except that information can be owned, Legitamate protest, organized events, and knowledge is the power to change it. Personally I think that certain IP laws are ridiculous. The DMCA is one of them, Copyrights that last longer than the author's life, and corporations like Wal-Mart all disgust me... Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >Or maybe not. > >Robert Treat > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it. Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that. Unfair laws shouldn't be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say welfare) at the expense of the people. Alex Satrapa
Paypal Risk Management, was Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
From
"Chris Travers"
Date:
Hi Mark et al. It seems to me that if we use a service such as Paypal as a venue for recieving payment, that our risks are pretty minor. The risks people are talking about here come into play only when we are storing sums of money in Paypal. Paypal has a number of issues that I would like to avoid: 1: They don't have a very good security record. (Abiword comes to mind) 2: They are large and well known, making users susceptible to fraud in the same way e-bay users are. This means that their security record may not always be under their control, as less knowledgable customers may fall for such scams. Even if they have improved their terms of service, I still am unsure based on these points. So here is my counterproposal. This viewpoint errs on the side of security and safety. 1: Have a separate bank account or money market (if we have enough of a ballance to make it worth it). 2: Clear out the Paypall acct weekly and transfer to the bank account. That way if somethign happens, we lose 1 week's worth. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> To: "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com> Cc: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>; "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>; <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 4:59 AM Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > Josh: > > > > > Odd. I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never > > > returned; I will contact them to clarify. > > > > OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or > > event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got > > slashdotted. > > Not this Marc, by the way .. :) > > > Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal .... > > > > This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa. > > Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their > > "Kazaa Gold" service. We discussed it, and decided that participating in > > this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on > > Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined. > > > > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through > > PayPal. However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, > > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would > > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with > > them. > > > > Of course, I could be outvoted .... > > I'm still anti-Paypal, even more so after this ... I'd hate to have to see > us, at some point, having to go the same route as abiword just to get at > the money, *especially* if it is/was at a time when we were at the last > minute on something .. imagine being at the last minute on paying for a > booth at Comdex and finding out Paypal has arbitrarily locked our funds? > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > >
Hi Robert;
The problem I see it with the viewpoint you have mentioned here is that
infringing on the record label's copyright doesn't do an adequate job of
furthering an alternative system-- it only draws a line in the sand which
will cause more grief for consumers. BTW, I don't believe that the RIAA is
correct that their revenues are dropping due to piracy. I think that their
revenues are dropping because an alienated user base doesn't want to support
them by buying their products!
The answer is not to pirate music, but rather to do the open source thing
and support open content. Same thing with software. The single biggest
obstacle to acceptance of open source software in most of the world is the
quantity of pirated software out there. Piracy isn't the solution--
constructing an alternate system and forcing the RIAA to learn the HARD
lesson is... I actually think that their actions will signal the beginning
fo the end for record labels in general...
I also would be opposed to distributing open source software via Kazaa, for
these reasons. ANd no, I generally do not pay for software.
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Treat" <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>; <keith@vcsn.com>
Cc: "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com>; "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>;
<pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
OSCON
> On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:51, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are
digital
> > >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other
> > > system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.
> >
> > I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have.
> > The reality is, people aren't honest.
> <snip>
> > The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling
> > within humans that they somehow deserve
> > something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not
> > they have earned it. So you get this mindset
> > that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't
> > hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
> > last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.
> >
>
> Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture.
Maybe
> they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public
domain"
> of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are
> tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured
> border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem
to
> have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act. Maybe some
> people see people building operating systems better than the biggest
> commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have
quality
> music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to
come.
> Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning
information.
> Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil
> disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of
> the bottom line.
>
> Or maybe not.
>
> Robert Treat
> --
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
>
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 21:30, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture.
> > Maybe they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public
> > domain" of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe
> > people are tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription
> > drug/ secured border / retirement solution / insert your social cause
> > here but we seem to have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny
> > Bono Act.
>
> I have no problem with my retirement solution. I actually save money
> instead of spending it on 4 latte's a day.
> I buy used cars instead of new ones at 329.00 a month on my 1600.00 a
> month salary. I choose not to have
> cable so I can save 600.00 a year tax free towards retirement. I take
> the bus instead of drive everyday to
> save 75.00 a month on gas. I work a second job two days a week to cover
> my kids college.
>
> This isn't me, but it was once. I earned everything that I have through
> hard work and the grace of God.
>
> Life is a choice people. You make of it what you will. It is up to you
> to choose your direction and the things
> that you want. If you don't have something you want (prescription drugs
> for example) then change jobs.
> If you can't change jobs, organize with your fellow employees and walk out.
>
> Can't afford to walk out? Start taking night classes over the Internet..
> Can't afford it? Why not? If you
> can't afford it legitamitely, then you will qualify for financial aid.
> Educate: Get a better job.
>
> Maybe some people are ignorant and lazy...
>
> Maybe some are a victim of circumstance.
>
> The latter is the rarity..
>
> I am fat because I have to eat McDonalds....
>
Two thing you seem to overlook. First, in regards to a decent retirment plan,
in this country we are forced to pay into a system like social security even
though we may never recieve a dime from it. I can think of a lot better ways
to invest my money than handing it over via FICA.
Second, while they can choose to avoid fast food, poor people can't afford
food of the same quality that rich people can afford. Ever notice how
"organic food" is generally more expensive than it's regular counterparts?
Or fresh produce is more expensive than it's canned counterparts? Sure you
can tell people they just need to "try harder", but it glosses over a lot of
details in actually being successfull...
> > Maybe some
> >people see people building operating systems better than the biggest
> >commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have
> > quality music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for
> > generations to come. Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the
> > idea of owning information. Maybe those people downloading them are
> > hoping that thier acts of civil disobediance might lead to a cultural
> > revolution that puts people ahead of the bottom line.
>
> Except that information can be owned, Legitamate protest, organized
> events, and knowledge is the power
> to change it. Personally I think that certain IP laws are ridiculous.
> The DMCA is one of them,
> Copyrights that last longer than the author's life, and corporations
> like Wal-Mart all disgust me...
>
> Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.
>
You haven't studied your history Joshua. Civil disobedience has always been a
useful tool in changing a societies laws. Course the bus company never sued
Rosa Parks for $17,000 for sitting in the wrong seat....
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>: > > >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital > >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other > system) > >the could at least cut done the amount of piracy. > > > I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have. Well we get a little smarter everytime with technology sometimes we get it kinda right (e.g. the one-way encryption for unix password files, the tocom chips in digital cable boxes) sometimes we get it wrong (e.g. WAP 802.11 encryption, DVD encryption) but I think my point was lost in making a specific case. A deterrant is just that. A person can do just about anything with enough time and motivation. Since deterrants can be technically based quite often they will have a low cost of implementation. When a company like Kazaa indicates that they would still not implement such technology (and who knows maybe they will or do) it makes me wonder. > The reality is, people aren't honest. > They are either stealing a pen from a bank, or an mp3 from the web. The > only thing Kazaa has done is > make it so that the people that will steal pens from the bank can also > steal music (images whatever) as easily > as they would steal that pen. True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime. Take the case with the guy who wanted to make a dvd player for linux. Even though he did nothing illegal the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for DVD encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have that information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal". Again this guy gets a negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing more than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete a project. Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD player at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed. It actually funny how we treat people sometimes. > The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling > within humans that they somehow deserve > something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not > they have earned it. So you get this mindset > that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't > hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million > last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it. heheh, well I kinda have to agree with that but still, not every artist or software writer (lets just say copywrite owner) is in the position to get the royalties he or she is entitiled to. In fact most do not. > This is nothing new, people have been trading on Usenet, IRC and Archie > (and these people are the primary culprits) > for a long time. I think that you would find that the majority of people > that are in the "major" offense of mp3 trading are the same > people that have always and will always do it. hey lets go even further back to GOPHER, FTP (before there were directories) and of course the dial-up BBS' (ahh the C-64 days!) What you're saying is absolutely true but if it known that these same elements now also use Kazaa as well as all the folks that are not as savy then why align ourselves with something that even has the appeareance of a negative image. I'm sure we all spend enough time trying to promote PG that we really don't want to get into discussions about why PostgreSQL up on Kazaa along side Quincy Jones' Jook Joint > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > >Someone mention the > >"appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight. I think > MS > >and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a > disabling > >blow. I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either. Especially since > they > >were spywear at one point. > > > >One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think > you > >can do that an protect copywrites as well. > > > > > > > >>Sincerely, > >> > >>Joshua D. Drake > >> > >>-- > >>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > >>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > >>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > >>Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org > >> > >> > >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >KP- > > > >____________________________________ > >This email account is being host by: > >VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com > > > > > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org > > -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Quoting Alex Satrapa <alex@lintelsys.com.au>: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it. > > Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that. Unfair laws shouldn't > be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have > been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say > welfare) at the expense of the people. > > Alex Satrapa > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > As long as we as human beings continue to gravity towards a concept of have and have-nots then the only way to change an existing system will to call attention to it. The only way to do that is to "challange" that system. Sometimes its breaking the law, sometimes its a sit-in sometimes is the courage of a singular individual, sometimes is the cowardice of a group. The haves will in more cases than not do things at the expense of the have-nots -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort. Ghandi was successful. The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters is only now really becoming aparent, as well. The point is that when it is the last resort, it should be done publically, with one's identity known. You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the legitimate acts of civil disobedience. The point is that civil disobedience, done publically and strongly, sends a powerful message, and the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time in jail over it. I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to change their strategies. The only change that will happen here will be a hardening of it. If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your approach and why you are doing it. Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years in jail as a way of proving your point. Then publicize, publicize, publicize. But I do not think that this is necessary... yet... Best Wishes, Chrs Travers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Satrapa" <alex@lintelsys.com.au> To: <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it. > > Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that. Unfair laws shouldn't > be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have > been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say > welfare) at the expense of the people. > > Alex Satrapa > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > >
Quoth chris@travelamericas.com ("Chris Travers"):
> I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.
>
> Ghandi was successful. The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square
> protesters is only now really becoming aparent, as well. The point
> is that when it is the last resort, it should be done publically,
> with one's identity known.
>
> You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music
> to the legitimate acts of civil disobedience. The point is that
> civil disobedience, done publically and strongly, sends a powerful
> message, and the message is all the more powerful based on the
> willingness to spend time in jail over it.
There's a VERY large difference between Ghandi and "music pirates."
(Aside: I consider "piracy" to be a _terrible_ term to use, since the
crime by that name, as traditionally and even still practiced, is a
HORRIBLY violent crime. Once a pirate has seized a ship and robbed
cargo, adding rape and murder to their list of crimes is quite
typical, and refugees that flee frightening places by boat are quite
likely to be able to attest to that sort of thing...)
Ghandi accepted that the legal system was going to do something unjust
to him, and depended on the fact that people would regard this as a
revolting result necessitating a "revolt" against the then-current
state of the legal system.
If the people "stealing music" were doing so out of an intent to a
similar sort of "civil disobedience," they would be documenting this
carefully, sending in signed confessions that "I just broke the DMCA
when, on 2003-07-01, I copied [Song] by [Artist]. Do your worst; it's
clearly unjust, and I will be reporting publicly whatever you do to
me."
There are _some_ instances of that sort of thing happening today; the
cases I have mostly heard of are where anti-abortion protestors ask
the courts to give them maximum sentences after they have done things
they regard as right but which the law considers, um, "not so great."
They may be pretty "way out there" in terms of some of their
principles, but they're operating rather closer to Ghandi's model of
"civil disobedience" than totally unprincipled teenagers ripping CDs
or DVDs.
--
let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/languages.html
"People who don't use computers are more sociable, reasonable, and ...
less twisted" -- Arthur Norman
On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:57:02 -0500, "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com> wrote: > > True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime. Take the case with the guy > who wanted to make a dvd player for linux. Even though he did nothing illegal > the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for DVD > encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have that > information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal". Again this guy gets a > negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing more > than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete a > project. Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD player > at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed. It > actually funny how we treat people sometimes. John wasn't in the US. The MPAA tried to make an example of him by pressuring the Norwegian government to go after him. Just with in the last week the goverment decided not to appeal the case any further. DVD encryption is not useful against real pirates. They can just copy the entire DVD. It is used to enforce region codes and macrovision by forcing DVD makers to aggree to that as part of their license to get decryption keys so that they can make DVD players that can play encrypted disks. Fortunately many of the Asian DVD player makers know that consumers don't want DVD players which enforce region codes (and to some extent macrovision) and somehow their test mode codes that disable these features somehow manage to leak out on the internet after their product is on the shelves in major markets. Depending on where you live it isn't necessarily illegal to make copies of a DVD, especially if it is a backup copy for your personal use.
Chris Travers wrote: > I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort. > > Ghandi was successful. The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters > is only now really becoming apparent, as well. The point is that when it is > the last resort, it should be done , with one's identity known. > > You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the > legitimate acts of civil disobedience. The point is that civil > disobedience, done publicly and strongly, sends a powerful message, and > the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time > in jail over it. > > I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think > they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with > something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to > change their strategies. The only change that will happen here will be a > hardening of it. > > If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something > noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your > approach and why you are doing it. Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay > damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years > in jail as a way of proving your point. Then publicize, publicize, > publicize. But I do not think that this is necessary... yet... Yes, I think the big point is whether you are gaining anything personally from the illegal activities. If you are, you have to ask yourself if you are doing it because you want to protest or because you want to get benefit from the action. I don't think in the Ghandi or Tieneman cases that the protesters benefited, and in fact went through great hardship. It was clear that they were doing it out of conscious. The MP3/DVD/Kazaa cases are unclear because there is benefit from the actions. Frankly I think 99% of it is getting something for free, and I think it is more prevalent because it is so _easy_ to do. It is not like walking into a bank and taking money, and it isn't taking something that deprives someone else of also having it, so it has a shared value that doesn't diminish if multiple people own it, which also make it more prevalent. [ Am I far enough off topic yet? :-) ] -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Sure, so can I and I make sure that I take advantage of it. That doesn't change the argument.Two thing you seem to overlook. First, in regards to a decent retirment plan, in this country we are forced to pay into a system like social security even though we may never recieve a dime from it. I can think of a lot better ways to invest my money than handing it over via FICA.
I had this argument with a friend of mine recently. Just because the food isn't organic doesn't meanSecond, while they can choose to avoid fast food, poor people can't afford food of the same quality that rich people can afford. Ever notice how "organic food" is generally more expensive than it's regular counterparts? Or fresh produce is more expensive than it's canned counterparts? Sure you can tell people they just need to "try harder", but it glosses over a lot of details in actually being successfull...
it is "bad" for you. Also canned food is fine for you. In fact if you are smart about the way you shop
you can easily eat reasonably healthy without breaking the bank... even if you are poor.
Simple example:
BigMac Value Meal contains something like 3 times the fat you should have in a day AND
what 1500? calories.... It will cost you about 4.00 bucks.
A box of nutragrain bars will cost 2.99 and will feed you breakfast for a week. Nutrgrain
bars are what I would consider "the most healthy" but they are as good or better for you than
a bowl of serial.
You are confusing Civil Disobedience with breaking the law. They are different things. Perhaps you-Mart all disgust me... Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.You haven't studied your history Joshua. Civil disobedience has always been a useful tool in changing a societies laws.
should reivew your history.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
-- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Quoting Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:57:02 -0500, > "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com> wrote: > > > > True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime. Take the case with the > guy > > who wanted to make a dvd player for linux. Even though he did nothing > illegal > > the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for > DVD > > encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have > that > > information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal". Again this guy gets > a > > negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing > more > > than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete > a > > project. Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD > player > > at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed. > It > > actually funny how we treat people sometimes. > > John wasn't in the US. The MPAA tried to make an example of him by > pressuring > the Norwegian government to go after him. Just with in the last week the > goverment decided not to appeal the case any further. Ahhh, thanks for the update. I didn't realize he wasn't an American citizen. > DVD encryption is not useful against real pirates. They can just copy the > entire DVD. It is used to enforce region codes and macrovision by forcing > DVD makers to aggree to that as part of their license to get decryption > keys so that they can make DVD players that can play encrypted disks. > Fortunately many of the Asian DVD player makers know that consumers don't > want DVD players which enforce region codes (and to some extent macrovision) > and somehow their test mode codes that disable these features somehow manage > to leak out on the internet after their product is on the shelves in major > markets. I never got that region thing (thus in my mind it had to be a marketing ploy). Gotta love Asia for having for some foresight on that on. > Depending on where you live it isn't necessarily illegal to make copies > of a DVD, especially if it is a backup copy for your personal use. > Heheh, I'll leave that discussion for another thread :) -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 12:42, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Chris Travers wrote:
> > I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.
> >
> > Ghandi was successful. The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters
> > is only now really becoming apparent, as well. The point is that when it is
> > the last resort, it should be done , with one's identity known.
> >
> > You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the
> > legitimate acts of civil disobedience. The point is that civil
> > disobedience, done publicly and strongly, sends a powerful message, and
> > the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time
> > in jail over it.
> >
> > I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think
> > they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with
> > something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to
> > change their strategies. The only change that will happen here will be a
> > hardening of it.
> >
> > If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something
> > noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your
> > approach and why you are doing it. Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay
> > damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years
> > in jail as a way of proving your point. Then publicize, publicize,
> > publicize. But I do not think that this is necessary... yet...
>
> Yes, I think the big point is whether you are gaining anything
> personally from the illegal activities. If you are, you have to ask
> yourself if you are doing it because you want to protest or because you
> want to get benefit from the action.
>
> I don't think in the Ghandi or Tieneman cases that the protesters
> benefited, and in fact went through great hardship. It was clear that
> they were doing it out of conscious. The MP3/DVD/Kazaa cases are
> unclear because there is benefit from the actions.
>
> Frankly I think 99% of it is getting something for free, and I think it
> is more prevalent because it is so _easy_ to do. It is not like walking
> into a bank and taking money, and it isn't taking something that
> deprives someone else of also having it, so it has a shared value that
> doesn't diminish if multiple people own it, which also make it more
> prevalent.
>
> [ Am I far enough off topic yet? :-) ]
>
Let me toss in the anecdote that my TV broke a couple weeks ago, so
we've been using an old TV that doesn't have any digital inputs. In
order to hook up the dvd player we have to run it through the VCR, but
alas in the infinite wisdom of the conglomerates you can't play DVD's*
through a VCR due to the copy protection programs. I'm not trying to
pirate/steal/whatever anything, I'd just like to watch the DVD's I have
purchased legally without buying new hardware... This little episode is
sure to curtail my DVD spending habits this coming year...
*not all DVD's have the copy protection program, but most of the newer
ones do. I was able to rent winged migration and watch that the other
night...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Chris Travers wrote: > You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software If you call it "pirating" to obtain a copy of a work that is no longer published, that was written, performed and originally published by people who are long since dead, then you're playing the RIAA or BSA game. Using the term "piracy" to describe copyright infringement dilutes the word. "Piracy" means raiding a ship at sea and taking its goods by force (ie: the maritime equivalent of highway robbery). It is also associated (by law) with the slave trade. Thus the crime of piracy means you take goods by force, deal in slaves, or associate with people who do so. The act of taking a copy of a copyrighted work and not crediting the source or paying royalties, is "copyright infringement". It's not even theft, since the person who made the work is not deprived of the use of their work, only the royalties thereof. So please, call a spade a spade. > I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think > they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with > something better, That something better was MP3.com - sign up unknown artists, distribute their songs as MP3s. A whole album for $US6 (plus download costs and time), most of which goes to the artist? What a deal! I loved it, it's just a pity the RIAA didn't like the competition. I'm certain that groups such as orchestras and garage bands would love to have the opportunity to be published without selling their lives to the RIAA. One of the reasons I love Free software is that I can happily use it and modify it to my heart's content without fear of recrimination. If I have a problem with (for example) tcpdump, I can change the software to do what I want it to (eg: parse a new protocol I'm working on) - and if the work is good enough, the author of the program will actually be *happy* that I've done something with it. How do you think the RIAA would feel about you sending them a dance/house album that you've composited and blended from a bunch of their copyrighted works? You'd end up in gaol in no time flat. How do you think Microsoft would feel about you sending in a bugfix to Excel? You'd end up in gaol for reverse engineering without permission, for starters (isn't the DMCA wonderful? aren't extradition treaties wonderful?) I personally don't see the sense in copyrights and patents on software - innovation in the software industry is usually incremental. I believe Free software will triumph over proprietary software simply because the authors have the freedom to borrow ideas and build on other's successes. Alex Satrapa
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>: > > > > > >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and > >bittorrent? > > > > > > > I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that > Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology. > Where Kazaa is a business. > > Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should > use every legal means possible to > distribute their software. > > If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the > gun maker? Hmmm, we'll I agree with that arguement but I don't think that is a good example. As a musician and owner of a publishing company also, I think the American retail commerical music market is grossly over priced- CDs are sometimes the same price as DVDs- PUHLEEEZZEE- the point of the matter is the kazaa is enabling- this like one of the top things for college student to do these days. From what I understand, last year RIAA and Kazaa regularly squared off on TechTV and the basically (this is 3rd party info so I could be wrong) the jist of things from Kazaa, "we know about the piracy and we don't care". True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy. Someone mention the "appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight. I think MS and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling blow. I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either. Especially since they were spywear at one point. One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you can do that an protect copywrites as well. > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > KP- ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com