Thread: read this and puke
http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/linux/0,1411,53006,00.html MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the application running my nulcear power station to MySQL... Tony -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
All well and good, but from what I have seen and heard with Postgresql, it is quietly and effectively running very large and complex jobs that MySQL cannot touch. As I was saying to my co-workers recently... is is one of the best truly *active* database servers out there. We recently switched everything to Postgersql from Mysql and were wondering why we didn't do it before. Still... it would be nice to do some more marketing... a better, more colorful, flashier Postgresql site perhaps? (I volunteer) - Ericson Smith eric@did-it.com http://www.did-it.com On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 15:05, tony wrote: > http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/linux/0,1411,53006,00.html > > MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... > > Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the application > running my nulcear power station to MySQL... > > Tony > -- > RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S > http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html > Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL > http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org
tony wrote: > http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/linux/0,1411,53006,00.html > > MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... > > Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the application > running my nulcear power station to MySQL... I have to read any email with that subject line. :-) Anyway, you are right. We need such highly visible sites to help continue our user growth. It isn't required, but it clearly helps. We also need our users to continue telling their friends what a great laundry soap^H^H^H^H, uh, database we are. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> tony wrote: > > http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/linux/0,1411,53006,00.html > > > > MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... > > While I think we all would agree that PostgreSQL is a better database, I liked the article. As long as it's an open-source-db vs. commercial-db I don't think PostgreSQL can lose. Sure, that article will get people looking at MySQL and for some (probably most) people MySQL will do everything they want... but for some it won't and they'll wonder if there's something else out there and find PostgreSQL. That's what happened to me... I started with mssql, then *had* to use Oracle because of another apps requirement, then used mySQL for some intranet stuff (didn't want to pay for another oracle license for starters). I didn't start using PostgreSQL until I decided i really wanted views, triggers, foreign-keys, etc.. I still use both depending on the client (and where it's going to be hosted). I prefer PostgreSQL, but for some things it's overkill.. > > Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the application > > running my nuclear power station to MySQL... You might also ask if you'd switch your power plant to PostgreSQL :) I don't think I would only because of some of Tom Lane's comments regarding PostgreSQL's appropriateness for mission critical 24/7 environments... I'm also not saying that Oracle would be better either... I prefer to leave nuclear power plants to Homer Simpson :) > Anyway, you are right. We need such highly visible sites to help > continue our user growth. It isn't required, but it clearly helps. We One thing that PHP (well Zend) does that I think is pretty useful is to have a nice case study section. For example this link about the navy using PHP. I send that to a lot of people when they start wavering about using PHP... http://www.zend.com/zend/cs/csnavalready.php Granted it means that we need to find people that are using PostgreSQL and find someone to write about it as well, but this sort of thing is pretty useful. Heck the whole "Community" section on zend.com is pretty nice. I'm up for helping with website stuff (development wise) ... don't know that I have much to offer article/case-study wise though... -philip
Hi guys, Along these lines, does anyone want to setup and run jobs.postgresql.org? It was a project which someone close to me was going to do, but for various reasons hasn't been able to get into. No real spec to it as of yet apart from: - PostgreSQL community oriented site to encourage IT Professionals to get into PostgreSQL by encouraging and growing it's job market, etc - No-cost posting of PostgreSQL jobs, regardless of whether by an agency, corp, individual, etc - Must integrate with the centralised PostgreSQL site user and membership system already in place (as developed for the techdocs.postgresql.org site) Looking for self-starting team players with vision, decent experience, and spare time more than anything, as I can tell you right now it should be a pretty active and important PostgreSQL site when up and running. The catch here is that 99% of everyone working on the existing PostgreSQL website infrastructure(s) are overloaded with work as it is and probably can't take large amounts of time to help out much, thus the self-starter bit. :-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
> Granted it means that we need to find people that are using PostgreSQL and
> find someone to write about it as well, but this sort of thing is pretty
> useful. Heck the whole "Community" section on zend.com is pretty nice.
I think you've made a very good point here- I went to the "user gallery"
early in my evaluation of PostgreSQL, and found that it was not organized in
a useful way. A few in-depth case studies or a more useful way to slice &
dice the data would be a great improvement.
It looks like the gallery is connected to pgsql.com, rather than
PostgreSQL.org. maybe somebody on the org side could do something nicer on
the main site. Our company would probably be willing to supply information
for a case-study.
Some of the ways to slice the info that might help for evaluators would be:
Size of database
Estimated transactions per day
Number of users
Size of company (employees or customers)
Database converted from, if conversion
Interface used (DBI, PHP, JDBC etc...)
Other tools used (How PostgreSQL is integrated with other tools to create
applications.)
Users should have a way to update this info as their database evolves. For
instance, we *hope* to add at least 1 Gbyte and many users each month, so we
look pretty insignificant now, but it should be an impressive database soon.
Unfortunately, when we added our first monthly chunk of data, I couldn't
update our info in the gallery to reflect that success.
-Nick
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Fankhauser
nickf@doxpop.com Phone 1.765.965.7363 Fax 1.765.962.9788
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I often enjoy reading about software development on the O'Reilly Network (http://www.oreillynet.com). One of their primary sub-sites is OnLAMP (http://www.onlamp.com/) where LAMP stands for Linux Apache MySQL Perl|Python|PHP. This is a collection of war story and how-to articles for those technologies. This is a pretty high profile site. If you really want more and better press then this is the sort of exposure that you need. Someone that has good pull in the PostgreSQL community (Bruce? Tom?) should be talking with Tim O'Reilly to get him to sponsor a similar site for Postgres. FWIW I sent an email to the "Ask Tim" link asking about getting that sort of exposure and volunteering my time to make it happen but I never heard back. I don't think that I rate a blip on his RADAR but I'm sure that someone with a good name could make some in-roads. Have your people call his people to schedule a con-call over a nice latte or something. rjsjr > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Philip Hallstrom > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:43 PM > To: Bruce Momjian > Cc: tony; postgres list > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] read this and puke > > > > tony wrote: > > > > http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/lin > ux/0,1411,53006,00.html > > > > > > MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... > > > > > While I think we all would agree that PostgreSQL is a better database, I > liked the article. As long as it's an open-source-db vs. commercial-db I > don't think PostgreSQL can lose. Sure, that article will get people > looking at MySQL and for some (probably most) people MySQL will do > everything they want... but for some it won't and they'll wonder if > there's something else out there and find PostgreSQL. That's what > happened to me... > > I started with mssql, then *had* to use Oracle because of another apps > requirement, then used mySQL for some intranet stuff (didn't want to pay > for another oracle license for starters). I didn't start using PostgreSQL > until I decided i really wanted views, triggers, foreign-keys, etc.. I > still use both depending on the client (and where it's going to be > hosted). I prefer PostgreSQL, but for some things it's overkill.. > > > > Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the > application > > > running my nuclear power station to MySQL... > > You might also ask if you'd switch your power plant to PostgreSQL :) I > don't think I would only because of some of Tom Lane's comments regarding > PostgreSQL's appropriateness for mission critical 24/7 environments... > I'm also not saying that Oracle would be better either... I prefer to > leave nuclear power plants to Homer Simpson :) > > > Anyway, you are right. We need such highly visible sites to help > > continue our user growth. It isn't required, but it clearly helps. We > > One thing that PHP (well Zend) does that I think is pretty useful is to > have a nice case study section. For example this link about the navy > using PHP. I send that to a lot of people when they start wavering about > using PHP... > > http://www.zend.com/zend/cs/csnavalready.php > > > Granted it means that we need to find people that are using PostgreSQL and > find someone to write about it as well, but this sort of thing is pretty > useful. Heck the whole "Community" section on zend.com is pretty nice. > > I'm up for helping with website stuff (development wise) ... don't know > that I have much to offer article/case-study wise though... > > -philip > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org >
I think a big bonus for postgres would be more and better FAQ's. Several issues that I have run into trying to transition myself and my developers from MSSQL and MySQL have only been resolved through hours of usenet searches (at least until I subscribed to the pgsql-general system.) I admit that I may just not know where to find all of the good dirt on postgres, but that is a large part of the problem. Some good questions that I have dealt with since starting postgres: when I run a query comparing a float8 > 3343432, why will it not use the index. The best answer I found is that I have to quote the number (leaving it unquoted the parser complains about some float8 compirson not defined.). case sensitive searches. I have seen the FAQ on this, but for my developers this has been hard to swallow. It has even caused me a great deal of headaches (i need a like search for address, city and state in case insensitive, but to date just deal with only using a UCASE(state) index -- a little on the slow side). This would be useful to have stronger comparisons against other leading db's (i have heard that oracle suffers this problem as well.) This being said, i personally think that postgres is a VERY powerful database solution that I enjoy using.
One site, that is a start at least is... http://www.designmagick.com I don't know how much exposure he has, but some of the tutorials haven been helpful and at least he seems to be open to anyone with experience posting articles, code, and so forth. Ray -----Original Message----- From: Robert J. Sanford, Jr. [mailto:rsanford@trefs.com] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:45 PM To: postgres list Subject: Re: [GENERAL] read this and puke I often enjoy reading about software development on the O'Reilly Network (http://www.oreillynet.com). One of their primary sub-sites is OnLAMP (http://www.onlamp.com/) where LAMP stands for Linux Apache MySQL Perl|Python|PHP. This is a collection of war story and how-to articles for those technologies. This is a pretty high profile site. If you really want more and better press then this is the sort of exposure that you need. Someone that has good pull in the PostgreSQL community (Bruce? Tom?) should be talking with Tim O'Reilly to get him to sponsor a similar site for Postgres. FWIW I sent an email to the "Ask Tim" link asking about getting that sort of exposure and volunteering my time to make it happen but I never heard back. I don't think that I rate a blip on his RADAR but I'm sure that someone with a good name could make some in-roads. Have your people call his people to schedule a con-call over a nice latte or something. rjsjr > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Philip Hallstrom > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:43 PM > To: Bruce Momjian > Cc: tony; postgres list > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] read this and puke > > > > tony wrote: > > > > http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/lin > ux/0,1411,53006,00.html > > > > > > MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... > > > > > While I think we all would agree that PostgreSQL is a better database, I > liked the article. As long as it's an open-source-db vs. commercial-db I > don't think PostgreSQL can lose. Sure, that article will get people > looking at MySQL and for some (probably most) people MySQL will do > everything they want... but for some it won't and they'll wonder if > there's something else out there and find PostgreSQL. That's what > happened to me... > > I started with mssql, then *had* to use Oracle because of another apps > requirement, then used mySQL for some intranet stuff (didn't want to pay > for another oracle license for starters). I didn't start using PostgreSQL > until I decided i really wanted views, triggers, foreign-keys, etc.. I > still use both depending on the client (and where it's going to be > hosted). I prefer PostgreSQL, but for some things it's overkill.. > > > > Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the > application > > > running my nuclear power station to MySQL... > > You might also ask if you'd switch your power plant to PostgreSQL :) I > don't think I would only because of some of Tom Lane's comments regarding > PostgreSQL's appropriateness for mission critical 24/7 environments... > I'm also not saying that Oracle would be better either... I prefer to > leave nuclear power plants to Homer Simpson :) > > > Anyway, you are right. We need such highly visible sites to help > > continue our user growth. It isn't required, but it clearly helps. We > > One thing that PHP (well Zend) does that I think is pretty useful is to > have a nice case study section. For example this link about the navy > using PHP. I send that to a lot of people when they start wavering about > using PHP... > > http://www.zend.com/zend/cs/csnavalready.php > > > Granted it means that we need to find people that are using PostgreSQL and > find someone to write about it as well, but this sort of thing is pretty > useful. Heck the whole "Community" section on zend.com is pretty nice. > > I'm up for helping with website stuff (development wise) ... don't know > that I have much to offer article/case-study wise though... > > -philip > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
Hi everybody Last week there was the LinuxTag in Germany, the biggest Linux-event in Europe. About PostgreSQL there was one lecture held by Michael Meskes. At his booth there was one poster with the blue elephant, that was all about PostgreSQL at the LinuxTag;-( For contrast: MySQL had a own booth (the second year) and several MySQL-developers were there all the four days long. So, I think, the presence at such a event is also a way to bring PostgreSQL to the people. Regards Conni
Cornelia Boenigk wrote: > Hi everybody > > Last week there was the LinuxTag in Germany, the biggest Linux-event > in Europe. About PostgreSQL there was one lecture held by Michael > Meskes. At his booth there was one poster with the blue elephant, that > was all about PostgreSQL at the LinuxTag;-( > > For contrast: MySQL had a own booth (the second year) and several > MySQL-developers were there all the four days long. > > So, I think, the presence at such a event is also a way to bring > PostgreSQL to the people. Yes, I miss going those these events. With the dot-bomb, it is getting harder and harder to attend these. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> > Last week there was the LinuxTag in Germany, the biggest Linux-event > > in Europe. About PostgreSQL there was one lecture held by Michael > > Meskes. At his booth there was one poster with the blue elephant, that > > was all about PostgreSQL at the LinuxTag;-( > > > > For contrast: MySQL had a own booth (the second year) and several > > MySQL-developers were there all the four days long. > > > > So, I think, the presence at such a event is also a way to bring > > PostgreSQL to the people. > > Yes, I miss going those these events. With the dot-bomb, it is getting > harder and harder to attend these. > Greatbridge [remember them? :)] had a great booth when I attended the O'Reilly Open Source conference last year. They has pretty much the same booth as mySQL and they had shirts/CD's etc. Bruce was even there :) The whole mySQL/pgsql debate bores me stupid, but let's not forget that mySQL is the *database*, the mySQL that has all the booths etc is 'mySQL AB' which is a *company*. The closest analog to the mySQL the company 'PostgreSQL Inc' but they merely offer commercial support etc. If you read the histtory of mySQL you'll know that mySQL was essentially a company first (TcX Datakonsult AB) while postgreSQL has essentiually remained in the academic/open source environment. Remember also that it wasn't that long ago the mySQL was GPL'ed. It's all in the history :) Cheers, Graeme
Along the same vein, I came across this notice (in the dead tree version) just a few days ago, else I would have mentioned it earlier: http://www.samag.com/ed/call.htm (the october 2002 edition is about databases). -ron > -----Original Message----- > From: Cornelia Boenigk [mailto:poppcorn@cornelia-boenigk.de] > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:41 PM > To: postgres list > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] read this and puke > > > Hi everybody > > Last week there was the LinuxTag in Germany, the biggest Linux-event > in Europe. About PostgreSQL there was one lecture held by Michael > Meskes. At his booth there was one poster with the blue elephant, that > was all about PostgreSQL at the LinuxTag;-( > > For contrast: MySQL had a own booth (the second year) and several > MySQL-developers were there all the four days long. > > So, I think, the presence at such a event is also a way to bring > PostgreSQL to the people. > > Regards > Conni > > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > http://archives.postgresql.org
Graeme Merrall sez: [...] } Greatbridge [remember them? :)] had a great booth when I attended the } O'Reilly Open Source conference last year. They has pretty much the same } booth as mySQL and they had shirts/CD's etc. Bruce was even there :) Isn't RedHat the primary commercial entity pushing PostgreSQL these days? See http://www.redhat.com/software/database/ } The whole mySQL/pgsql debate bores me stupid, but let's not forget that } mySQL is the *database*, the mySQL that has all the booths etc is 'mySQL } AB' which is a *company*. The closest analog to the mySQL the company } 'PostgreSQL Inc' but they merely offer commercial support etc. Did anyone notice if RedHat was visibly pushing their database product, or the PostgreSQL name? } If you read the histtory of mySQL you'll know that mySQL was essentially } a company first (TcX Datakonsult AB) while postgreSQL has essentiually } remained in the academic/open source environment. Remember also that it } wasn't that long ago the mySQL was GPL'ed. It's all in the history :) What license is PostgreSQL, anyway? I never did find out when I was looking for it. } Cheers, } Graeme --Greg
Hi Ron, SysAdmin Magazine. :-( Subscribed to them a few years ago, they sent me one issue, billed my CC for a year worth of issues, and I never received any more issues. Then they had the gall to send threatening legal-type snail mail, demanding I pay again for some reason, and never returned any of my emails. Thought they were a scam which I'd somehow been sucked into, and promptly ignored them from then on. Hope your experiences with them have been better. Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift Ron Snyder wrote: > > Along the same vein, I came across this notice (in the dead tree version) > just a few days ago, else I would have mentioned it earlier: > http://www.samag.com/ed/call.htm (the october 2002 edition is about > databases). > > -ron > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cornelia Boenigk [mailto:poppcorn@cornelia-boenigk.de] > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:41 PM > > To: postgres list > > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] read this and puke > > > > > > Hi everybody > > > > Last week there was the LinuxTag in Germany, the biggest Linux-event > > in Europe. About PostgreSQL there was one lecture held by Michael > > Meskes. At his booth there was one poster with the blue elephant, that > > was all about PostgreSQL at the LinuxTag;-( > > > > For contrast: MySQL had a own booth (the second year) and several > > MySQL-developers were there all the four days long. > > > > So, I think, the presence at such a event is also a way to bring > > PostgreSQL to the people. > > > > Regards > > Conni > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of > > broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > > http://archives.postgresql.org > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 21:22, Bruce Momjian wrote: > I have to read any email with that subject line. :-) Well for the world at large there is one, and only one, free SQL database IMO. Guess which was the first one I looked at when I discovered I needed to learn SQL? Then I looked at the licence and I couldn't use it without paying for it so I checked out PostgreSQL... From various mails I have been receiving an important part of lost users checked out PostgreSQL a couple of years ago. They weren't impressed by the speed. We also need a campaign along the lines of "come back, we got speed"... RedHat can not push its version of PostgreSQL and stay friends with Larry who gives them lots of money. So we can't count on them being a motor behind a marketing effort. You all know why we need more visibility? Because it becomes easier to propose a PostgreSQL solution to clients! Ever had the CIO asking "why don't we use MySQL? That seems to be a very poular database"?... Maybe we could do a campaogn on "putting the P back into LAPP"? (Linux, Apache, PHP, PostgreSQL) I think that we should emphasize "high-end" and "powerful" as we are looking for capturing the elite user aren't we? Enough fluff for today Cheers Tony -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
On 14 Jun 2002, tony wrote: > Maybe we could do a campaogn on "putting the P back into LAPP"? (Linux, > Apache, PHP, PostgreSQL) "LAMP" is just one of those stupid things that happens on the open source world: one product becomes "the one" and everything else gets ignored. Linux got it in operating systems, perl got it in scripting languages, MySQL in databases, and so on. The biggest problem with this is not that I care so much what others use, but, as you pointed out, people tend to ask for just the one thing. As a NetBSD developer, I've been dealing with this sort of problem for years, and I don't really see any way of overcoming it.... cjs -- Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> +81 90 7737 2974 http://www.netbsd.org Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light. --XTC
Le Jeudi 13 Juin 2002 21:59, Justin Clift a écrit : > Along these lines, does anyone want to setup and run > jobs.postgresql.org? I am interested. Jean-Michel POURE
On Fri, 2002-06-14 at 07:31, Gregory Seidman wrote: > Isn't RedHat the primary commercial entity pushing PostgreSQL these days? > See http://www.redhat.com/software/database/ $2000? Ok, isn't much when you compare to Oracle, but I wonder... Installing Debian+postgres get's me quite everything rh db is offering, except the phone support. And once the support problems go beyond basic things, I'm not sure RH is willing to answer them, a service contract with one of the pg support companies will probably give a better roi? cheers -- vbi -- secure email with gpg avbidder@fortytwo.ch: key id 0x92082481 avbidder@acter.ch: key id 0x5E4B731F
Attachment
I'm also would be interested in this project but just have no time
to be really involved. What I'd propose is to develop simple form-based
Web interface with minimal number of input fieds, so people will not bored
to fill them. Someone should prepare several lists of predefined
categorizations ( position, languages, country ...). This is most important
part, in my opinion. All everything, like skills, should go to the
free text. All searches should begin from full text search (on free text).
This is the most simple way. User (employer) get a list of categorization where
search is succeeded. Then it's easy to navigate him through selected
categories.
As a developer of OpenFTS I could help embedding and tunning full text
search engine into application.
Oleg
On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> Le Jeudi 13 Juin 2002 21:59, Justin Clift a Иcrit :
> > Along these lines, does anyone want to setup and run
> > jobs.postgresql.org?
>
> I am interested.
> Jean-Michel POURE
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
Hi > Most of the German PHP-developers use MySQL, some of them not even > know about PostgreSQL. Sorry To avoid misunderstandings: I mean the people developing websites, not the poople developing PHP. Regards Conni
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes:
> "LAMP" is just one of those stupid things that happens on the open
> source world: one product becomes "the one" and everything else
> gets ignored.
Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better
standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough
market share. We should worry about the prospect that MySQL will
achieve such complete mindshare dominance that no other open source
database project remains viable.
Great Bridge did a good job of marketing Postgres while they were
around. Red Hat has not picked up the ball at all :-(
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes: > >>"LAMP" is just one of those stupid things that happens on the open >>source world: one product becomes "the one" and everything else >>gets ignored. > > Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better > standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough > market share. We should worry about the prospect that MySQL will > achieve such complete mindshare dominance that no other open source > database project remains viable. > > Great Bridge did a good job of marketing Postgres while they were > around. Red Hat has not picked up the ball at all :-( This is a wild generalization ... but it's just a friendly conversation. I've noticed that technically oriented folks don't tend to be the best marketers ever. I'm like this myself. I'll sit around and code into the wee hours of the morning but when it comes to selling my ideas to the people who would pay for them, I avoid it until my creditors are banging on my door. It's kind of surprising that more marketing-oriented people aren't drawn to open source, you'd think there would be the potential for big money there. The product can be obtained for free, you know? Anyway, just some thoughts. MySQL AB is a company that has people on staff that get paid to market MySQL. It's only logical that MySQL would get a lot of press. If a company made most of it's money off of Postgre, you would think their marketing staff would be creating quite a stir (just like the folks at MySQL do). Or maybe there's another way to accomplish the same thing? Regardless of exactly how it happens, the widespread knowledge of Postgre will come about because people actively work to get others interested. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology http://www.potentialtech.com
I think pushing PostgreSQL itself isn't a single (probably not the best) way.
We need more real applications based on PostgreSQL. There are several of
them. OpenFTS is one of them ( I hope :-) But it lacks good documentation,
packaging and support. I wrote standalone crawler and search script for
OpenFTS to let people index and search their personal web sites, document
collections. But again, I had no time to document it, so they have not
submitted to CVS. Without support it has a little chance go to the
end user. We need commercial companies around PostgreSQL. But after
GreatBridge it's unlikely to happen. I hoped Redhat would do something,
but I don't see any movement.
Oleg
On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:
> Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes:
> > "LAMP" is just one of those stupid things that happens on the open
> > source world: one product becomes "the one" and everything else
> > gets ignored.
>
> Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better
> standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough
> market share. We should worry about the prospect that MySQL will
> achieve such complete mindshare dominance that no other open source
> database project remains viable.
>
> Great Bridge did a good job of marketing Postgres while they were
> around. Red Hat has not picked up the ball at all :-(
>
> regards, tom lane
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
On Fri, 2002-06-14 at 16:47, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > We need more real applications based on PostgreSQL. There are several of > them. OpenFTS is one of them ( I hope :-) <snip> There is another on the way... but shhhh > submitted to CVS. Without support it has a little chance go to the > end user. We need commercial companies around PostgreSQL. But after > GreatBridge it's unlikely to happen. I hoped Redhat would do something, > but I don't see any movement. RedHat makes more money from Oracle than from PostgreSQL. Don't expect anything from them. Right RedHat guys? We don't blame you. We are looking for other solutions. Cheers Tony -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
I'd like to help out. I'm a php / postgresql developer, but I can work in PERL or Java if I have to. Should we create a list for jobs-postgresql-devel?
On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Bill Moran wrote: > Tom Lane wrote: > > Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes: > > > >>"LAMP" is just one of those stupid things that happens on the open > >>source world: one product becomes "the one" and everything else > >>gets ignored. > > > > Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better > > standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough > > market share. We should worry about the prospect that MySQL will > > achieve such complete mindshare dominance that no other open source > > database project remains viable. > > > > Great Bridge did a good job of marketing Postgres while they were > > around. Red Hat has not picked up the ball at all :-( > > This is a wild generalization ... but it's just a friendly conversation. > I've noticed that technically oriented folks don't tend to be the > best marketers ever. I'm like this myself. I'll sit around and code > into the wee hours of the morning but when it comes to selling my > ideas to the people who would pay for them, I avoid it until my > creditors are banging on my door. > It's kind of surprising that more marketing-oriented people aren't > drawn to open source, you'd think there would be the potential for > big money there. The product can be obtained for free, you know? > Anyway, just some thoughts. MySQL AB is a company that has people > on staff that get paid to market MySQL. It's only logical that > MySQL would get a lot of press. If a company made most of it's > money off of Postgre, you would think their marketing staff would > be creating quite a stir (just like the folks at MySQL do). Or > maybe there's another way to accomplish the same thing? Regardless > of exactly how it happens, the widespread knowledge of Postgre will > come about because people actively work to get others interested. Actually, one of the problems that we've (PgSQL, Inc) noticed with our clients is getting them to publicly acknowledge/endorse using PostgreSQL ... ... over the past couple of months, we've provided onsite training to several large companies, in order to facilitate them switching over to PostgreSQL, but they keep the fact that they've switched over "hush-hush" for internal reasons ...
I would be interested in helping out. I am an internet developer, doing php, java, and xml. Let me know what I can do to help out. Ray Hunter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Clift" <justin@postgresql.org> To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> Cc: "Ericson Smith" <eric@did-it.com>; "tony" <tony@animaproductions.com> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: [GENERAL] jobs.postgresql.org - Who's interested? > Hi guys, > > Along these lines, does anyone want to setup and run > jobs.postgresql.org? > > It was a project which someone close to me was going to do, but for > various reasons hasn't been able to get into. > > No real spec to it as of yet apart from: > > - PostgreSQL community oriented site to encourage IT > Professionals to get into PostgreSQL by encouraging > and growing it's job market, etc > - No-cost posting of PostgreSQL jobs, regardless of > whether by an agency, corp, individual, etc > - Must integrate with the centralised PostgreSQL site > user and membership system already in place > (as developed for the techdocs.postgresql.org site) > > Looking for self-starting team players with vision, decent experience, > and spare time more than anything, as I can tell you right now it should > be a pretty active and important PostgreSQL site when up and running. > > The catch here is that 99% of everyone working on the existing > PostgreSQL website infrastructure(s) are overloaded with work as it is > and probably can't take large amounts of time to help out much, thus the > self-starter bit. > > :-) > > Regards and best wishes, > > Justin Clift > > > -- > "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those > who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the > first group; there was less competition there." > - Indira Gandhi > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
I can help out. Would be a challenge and i have spare time in the evening when i finish work and at the weekend sometimes :-) Darren Ferguson On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Scott Marlowe wrote: > I'd like to help out. I'm a php / postgresql developer, but I can work > in PERL or Java if I have to. Should we create a list for > jobs-postgresql-devel? > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org >
Hello everybody > Maybe we could do a campaogn on "putting the P back into LAPP"? (Linux, > Apache, PHP, PostgreSQL) at http://www.phpconference.de/2002/index_en.php you find the call for papers for the international PHP Conference. Maybe a step to LAPP? Most of the German PHP-developers use MySQL, some of them not even know about PostgreSQL. Regards Conni
I think you have to give MySQL it's due. 1. It seems to have gotten into a lot of ISPs very early. I first started to use sql when I had to had some DB driven functions to my companies website. We where using netware at the time so a real DB server was out of the question. I wonder how many other people got there first taste of SQL using MySQL, perl DBI, and or PHP? 2. It works for a lot of things. If it ain't broke don't fix it. 3. There is a company behind it. What I wish is that some company would get behind PostgreSQL and start pushing it. It will not be IBM. They have DB2. I thought RedHat was supposed to be getting into the DB market using Postgres. http://r.hotwired.com/r/wn_html_link/http://www.wired.com/news/linux/0,1411, 53006,00.html MySQL a dangerous competitor to Oracle... Guys we need a marketing department!!! Or I'll just move the application running my nulcear power station to MySQL...
tony wrote: > > On Fri, 2002-06-14 at 16:47, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > > > submitted to CVS. Without support it has a little chance go to the > > end user. We need commercial companies around PostgreSQL. But after > > GreatBridge it's unlikely to happen. I hoped Redhat would do something, > > but I don't see any movement. > > RedHat makes more money from Oracle than from PostgreSQL. Don't expect > anything from them. Right RedHat guys? Yes and no... Yes, Red Hat makes money from Oracle. and No, you should expect something from Red Hat but not direct marketing support. Red Hat markets its own database distribution, Red Hat Database, which is powered by PostgreSQL. This fact is clearly stated on all RHDB marketing literature. What you should expect is that modifications made to PostgreSQL proper to support the direction of RHDB be made available to the community (a current example being SQL schemas). Cheers, Patrick -- Patrick Macdonald Red Hat Database Development
hi all,
I have been working with PostgreSQL for at least 6 to 7 months now. I think it is a great product. I have been working on my own trying to create an auction site using PostgreSQL and Java, RedHat Linux. On every web page of mine at the bottom there is a logo of PostgreSQL, RedHat saying that the server is powered by them. I have also contacted Sun for the Java logo, but they require licensing agreement to use their logo, so I am waiting for that. Soon as I can get the internet connection with modem working my website should be ready. This is my little effort to promote PostgreSQL database.
Sanjeev Rathore
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
Gregory Seidman wrote: > > Did anyone notice if RedHat was visibly pushing their database product, or > the PostgreSQL name? Yes, Red Hat Database is being marketed (a little lighter than I had hoped) and all RHDB marketing material states that RHDB is powered by PostgreSQL. In fact, we are just finishing development on V2. Snapshots of various tools can be found at http://sources.redhat.com/rhdb The team is alive and well and based in Toronto, except for our Pittsburgh based member, Tom Lane. Also, PostgreSQL is still being packaged as part of the Red Hat Linux distributions. Cheers, Patrick Macdonald -- Red Hat Database Development
Patrick Macdonald <patrickm@redhat.com> writes:
>> Did anyone notice if RedHat was visibly pushing their database product, or
>> the PostgreSQL name?
> The team is alive and well and based in Toronto,
> except for our Pittsburgh based member, Tom Lane.
For the record: I too am alive and well.
regards, tom lane
On Fri, 2002-06-14 at 23:12, Patrick Macdonald wrote: > Yes, Red Hat Database is being marketed (a little > lighter than I had hoped) and all RHDB marketing > material states that RHDB is powered by PostgreSQL. Understatement =:-D This was the point I was trying to make. Since the launch it has dissapeared from the front page of the site and is not in the solutions page. You have to dig around in software to find it. And not much has been written by the marketing dept in a while judging by the dates... > In fact, we are just finishing development on V2. > Snapshots of various tools can be found at > http://sources.redhat.com/rhdb They look great. Would redHat like to contribute icons to the java front end we are working on? Cheers Tony Grant -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 01:41:05PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> Actually, one of the problems that we've (PgSQL, Inc) noticed with our
> clients is getting them to publicly acknowledge/endorse using PostgreSQL
I can confirm that statement.
> PostgreSQL, but they keep the fact that they've switched over "hush-hush"
> for internal reasons ...
That one, too.
I have had some luck recently getting our marketing guys to talk up
our use of PostgreSQL, but it's like pulling teeth.
A
--
----
Andrew Sullivan 87 Mowat Avenue
Liberty RMS Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M6K 3E3
+1 416 646 3304 x110
tony wrote: > > On Fri, 2002-06-14 at 23:12, Patrick Macdonald wrote: > > > Yes, Red Hat Database is being marketed (a little > > lighter than I had hoped) and all RHDB marketing > > material states that RHDB is powered by PostgreSQL. > > Understatement =:-D This was the point I was trying to make. Since the > launch it has dissapeared from the front page of the site and is not in > the solutions page. For the record, this is normal process. When a product is launched, it gets front page real estate for a set amount of time. That time frame has passed for us, we're now on the "Products and Services" page. The "Solutions" page is a whitepaper/howto information collection. You will not find any products marketed there. > You have to dig around in software to find it. And > not much has been written by the marketing dept in a while judging by > the dates... Not really... all Red Hat distributions/products (Linux, Database, GNUPro, Stronghold, etc) are listed under "Products and Services" off the front page. I agree with your second statement and the RHDB development team compensates with the sources.redhat.com/rhdb site. Between releases, there is very little change to the redhat.com pages. Again, standard procedure. Updates to the RHDB product have be ongoing (newer version of PostgreSQL, newer documentation, etc) and these updates are propagated to users via Red Hat Network. > > In fact, we are just finishing development on V2. > > Snapshots of various tools can be found at > > http://sources.redhat.com/rhdb > > They look great. Would redHat like to contribute icons to the java front > end we are working on? Since we have yet to ship our tools, the answer at this time is probably "not yet". Cheers, Patrick
On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:01:05AM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better > standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough > market share. That's not exactly true, according to <http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.html>. But it _is_ an instructive analogy. There are a couple of things about MySQL that give it an advantage. First, it is widely believed to be fast. Second, it is good enough for many types of application. Third, it has "mind share". The first belief seems to be true under light load. Everything I've ever been able to discover about MySQL suggests that it is badly hobbled under heavy load. Work-arounds to that handicap are common. (As an aside, one thing I have noted is that many people -- even ones who ought to know better -- think they can get away with somehow building transactional integrity "in the application, without the speed penalty". I have yet to see that approach work. But it is something many MySQL mavens suggest.) The second belief is certainly true, with the load issues taken into consideration. Maybe what that means is that PostgreSQL plays MS SQL Server to MySQL's Access (ooh, I'll get flamed for that one). But the third is the one that Tom really was worrying about, and he's right to worry. As the AFU page shows, the real advantage that VHS had is that, for whatever reason, it started to take over the market. At some point, there was just no reason to continue supporting Beta. Even though Beta was in firm control of the market at the beginning (and had a full year head start), it ended up losing to VHS on the grounds of ubiquity. RDBMSs are like VCRs in that it is better to use a system a lot of others use, because then you can get stuff (like DBAs) easily. It is a major PITA to hire a PostgreSQL DBA these days. Everyone and his brother knows about MySQL (well, or claims he does!), but competent PostgreSQL people are thin on the ground. And that's a real cost for a company considering using PostgreSQL. Hmm. Maybe there's room for some sort of certification programme? A -- ---- Andrew Sullivan 87 Mowat Avenue Liberty RMS Toronto, Ontario Canada <andrew@libertyrms.info> M6K 3E3 +1 416 646 3304 x110
On Sat, 2002-06-15 at 15:16, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > That's not exactly true, according to > <http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.html>. But it _is_ > an instructive analogy. Beta went on of course to become a professional format. > There are a couple of things about MySQL that give it an advantage. > First, it is widely believed to be fast. Second, it is good enough > for many types of application. Third, it has "mind share". <snip> Speed at the web application level must surely depend on what application layer you are using between the web server and the database? Maybe people say that because PHP is optimized for MySQL? > The second belief is certainly true, with the load issues taken into > consideration. Maybe what that means is that PostgreSQL plays MS SQL > Server to MySQL's Access (ooh, I'll get flamed for that one). Access isn't a database so MySQL isn't either? =:-D <snip> > RDBMSs are like VCRs in that it is better to use a system a lot of > others use, because then you can get stuff (like DBAs) easily. It is > a major PITA to hire a PostgreSQL DBA these days. Everyone and his > brother knows about MySQL (well, or claims he does!), but competent > PostgreSQL people are thin on the ground. And that's a real cost for > a company considering using PostgreSQL. In the web application field hosting is just as big a PITA. Cheers Tony -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: > Not only in open source. Remember Betamax? Technically a better > standard than VHS, but it died anyway because it couldn't get enough > market share. We should worry about the prospect that MySQL will > achieve such complete mindshare dominance that no other open source > database project remains viable. I don't think it's likely that PostgreSQL would be become non-viable just because MySQL might have vastly more market share. There's much less network effect in this instance for a couple of reasons. One is that there's much more tendency to generate one's own content (i.e., programs that use a database) oneself, in which case you can use any database you like, and the other is that there are enough databases out there anyway (Oracal, Sybase, MS SQL Server, etc.) that pretty much everyone with an application that many sites use finds it worthwhile to support multiple databases, in which case adding PostgreSQL support is relatively trivial. cjs -- Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> +81 90 7737 2974 http://www.netbsd.org Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light. --XTC
> Some of the ways to slice the info that might help for evaluators would be: > > Size of database > Estimated transactions per day > Number of users > Size of company (employees or customers) > Database converted from, if conversion > Interface used (DBI, PHP, JDBC etc...) > Other tools used (How PostgreSQL is integrated with other tools to create > applications.) That would work for rational programers. For the perl crowd, you'd have to appeal to coolness. But more so, for the business world, you need to have a list of big names up top. I've found that 9 times out of 10, decision makers feel best doing the same thing everyone else is doing. If Postgre is in any fortune 500 companies, that's the info we need to make visiable. Build a case that it does the job while saving time and money. Show ROI with real support costs included. Unless you're dealing with other oracle centric pieces of technology, I think it's clear posgre fufills this propisition, but we need to have case studies to prove it.
The other thing I'd say is, making the debate MySQL vs PostgreSQL is picking a battle on 2 fronts. It would be better to present a unified front of options from OSS for database needs. Have a dead simple info store, something that needs to back something simplistic that is predominately read only? Go MySQL. Have a true application with complex business rules, PosgreSQL will get you there. I think this is the way most people end up viewing them. Even tho I consider PostgreSQL fast enough for even simple needs. And of course, getting replication and fallover going would really strengthen Postgre's case. I feel bad saying that without being able to contrib code tho.
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > RDBMSs are like VCRs in that it is better to use a system a lot of > others use, because then you can get stuff (like DBAs) easily. It is > a major PITA to hire a PostgreSQL DBA these days. Everyone and his > brother knows about MySQL (well, or claims he does!), but competent > PostgreSQL people are thin on the ground. And that's a real cost for > a company considering using PostgreSQL. > > Hmm. Maybe there's room for some sort of certification programme? This is already being worked on by PgSQL, Inc ... we have been working with several colleges/universities towards running courses in the fall revolving around PgSQL, and are developing a textbook for said course ... As for 'hiring a PgSQL DBA', our clients have been bringing us in to provide onsite training to their current DBAs in order to be prepared to convert from Oracle->PgSQL ... most feel it is more cost-effective to bring their current staff up to speed then to bring in someone to handle just that aspect ...
On 15 Jun 2002, tony wrote: > In the web application field hosting is just as big a PITA. How so? There are several companies out there that offer PgSQL hosting ... Hub.Org (http://www.hub.org) has been offering it since '95 ...
On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 05:25:04PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> As for 'hiring a PgSQL DBA', our clients have been bringing us in to
> provide onsite training to their current DBAs in order to be prepared to
> convert from Oracle->PgSQL ... most feel it is more cost-effective to
> bring their current staff up to speed then to bring in someone to handle
> just that aspect ...
This is certainly true, but doesn't help you start as a PostgrSQL
shop. We have also found that training people internally is good.
But one has to see that, in a small shop, one person leaving can make
a huge difference. In such a case, a small shop can't afford the
time to train someone new. Managers will look at that problem and
say, "I can get DBAs for [insert certain product names] in an
instant, so PostgreSQL looks like a liability."
Market share makes a big difference. This isn't to bash those with
lesser share. But one needs to be aware of it. The same thing could
be said to someone contemplating using Informix for a new prodct.
A
--
----
Andrew Sullivan 87 Mowat Avenue
Liberty RMS Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M6K 3E3
+1 416 646 3304 x110
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 05:25:04PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > As for 'hiring a PgSQL DBA', our clients have been bringing us in to > > provide onsite training to their current DBAs in order to be prepared to > > convert from Oracle->PgSQL ... most feel it is more cost-effective to > > bring their current staff up to speed then to bring in someone to handle > > just that aspect ... > > This is certainly true, but doesn't help you start as a PostgrSQL shop. > We have also found that training people internally is good. But one has > to see that, in a small shop, one person leaving can make a huge > difference. In such a case, a small shop can't afford the time to train > someone new. Managers will look at that problem and say, "I can get > DBAs for [insert certain product names] in an instant, so PostgreSQL > looks like a liability." Agreed, which is why we are ramping up development of the jobs.postgresql.org site, as means of providing a 'central clearing house' of potential programmers and DBAs ... as well as why we've been so keen on getting PgSQL into the classrooms for the fall session, so that *some* secondary level/accredited programs are available for training ...
I volunteer to do project management, design and architecture. The fastest way to get this done quickly is just to get a team assembled and start planning. How about if we get a set of requirements. A possible starting point -Free to post for all? -Allow paid adds with more space? (1) -Besides postgreSQL what other info do we want posters to be able to post. For instance languages, knowledge on other databases, etc.. -Do we want a "resume" posting feature? If so do we also want specific fields for things which may go hand in hand with PostgreSQL such as a specific OS knowledge (Linux, FreeBSD, etc) or a particular language (PHP, etc)? I think certain things we may want to have fields for. In particular OSs and selected languages such as Perl and PHP. This way it would make it easier for those looking for people to be able to add more weight to their search based on those criterias. -Where are we going to host this? -Will we have job agents for both employers and job seekers? -How will we market this site? Notes: 1) Money collected could be used to pay for enhancements or hosting. Or do we want this to be an all volunteer effort? I personally would not mind putting some money to get this project to succeed. In particular any of us who would like to work fulltime with PostgreSQL can benefit from this resource becoming a reality. Although volunteer work can be just as succesfull paid work seems to do wonder for keeping something on track.
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > -Where are we going to host this? same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ...
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > -Where are we going to host this? > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace?
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > > -Where are we going to host this? > > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? Yup ...
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? > > Yup ... Marc, Should we be using the www list for this or creating a new list? Although I got approved to the list it seems there was a little confusion and initially my application was rejected and then approved. It seems it is a closed list.
Hi Francisco, Sorry about the confusion regarding joining the right mailing list. I notified the wrong person about people needing to join it, and therefore the *right person* got the requests and rejected them unknowingly. Should now be fixed for everyone. :-) The present www list will probably do fine for everyone to communicate. When stuff of general interest and importance arises we can always CC the General mailing list to let people know, ask opinions, and so forth. So, lets try it out and see how it goes. :-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift Francisco Reyes wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > > > > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? > > > > Yup ... > > Marc, > > Should we be using the www list for this or creating a new list? > Although I got approved to the list it seems there was a little confusion > and initially my application was rejected and then approved. It seems it > is a closed list. > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > > > > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? > > > > Yup ... > > Marc, > > Should we be using the www list for this or creating a new list? > Although I got approved to the list it seems there was a little confusion > and initially my application was rejected and then approved. It seems it > is a closed list. Just checked the list, and it should be fine as is ... subscribe_policy is set to: # closed - Anyone can use the subscribe command for any address, # but the approval of the list moderators is required. # which just means that I have to approve the subscription ... you wouldn't have kept the 'rejected' email, would you?
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > > > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > > > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > > > > > > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? > > > > > > Yup ... > > > > Marc, > > > > Should we be using the www list for this or creating a new list? > > Although I got approved to the list it seems there was a little confusion > > and initially my application was rejected and then approved. It seems it > > is a closed list. > > Just checked the list, and it should be fine as is ... subscribe_policy is > set to: > > # closed - Anyone can use the subscribe command for any address, > # but the approval of the list moderators is required. > # > > which just means that I have to approve the subscription ... you wouldn't > have kept the 'rejected' email, would you? I rejected it. Remember me, the one you designated the list owner? Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > > > > > > same place as the rest of the .postgresql.org sites ... actually, Justin > > > > > > was provided with a machine when he first proposed it, to work with ... > > > > > > its to be moved over to the new server tomorrow, actually ... > > > > > > > > > > New server, as in the new machine you just got from Rackspace? > > > > > > > > Yup ... > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > Should we be using the www list for this or creating a new list? > > > Although I got approved to the list it seems there was a little confusion > > > and initially my application was rejected and then approved. It seems it > > > is a closed list. > > > > Just checked the list, and it should be fine as is ... subscribe_policy is > > set to: > > > > # closed - Anyone can use the subscribe command for any address, > > # but the approval of the list moderators is required. > > # > > > > which just means that I have to approve the subscription ... you wouldn't > > have kept the 'rejected' email, would you? > > I rejected it. Remember me, the one you designated the list owner? Oops :)
> > Hmm. Maybe there's room for some sort of certification programme? > > This is already being worked on by PgSQL, Inc ... we have been working > with several colleges/universities towards running courses in the fall > revolving around PgSQL, and are developing a textbook for said course ... Wondering is there anywhere on the web about these courses, and/or are they're any plans to provide a off site , or corespondance version ? This is a great step forward IMHO. > > As for 'hiring a PgSQL DBA', our clients have been bringing us in to > provide onsite training to their current DBAs in order to be prepared to > convert from Oracle->PgSQL ... most feel it is more cost-effective to > bring their current staff up to speed then to bring in someone to handle > just that aspect ...
O agree with design and architecture and getting them out of the way early. Project managemet if you want to do it great. I will be more than happy to follow a lead. If needed i can help with design and archiecture issues. Resume posting feature definately a good idea. There are a few ways that we can achieve this. Off list topic i think. Another big topic what web server will we use?? Apache, Aolserver ? Ok enough from me just now Darren Ferguson On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I volunteer to do project management, design and architecture. > The fastest way to get this done quickly is just to get a team assembled > and start planning. > > How about if we get a set of requirements. > A possible starting point > -Free to post for all? > -Allow paid adds with more space? (1) > -Besides postgreSQL what other info do we want posters to be able to post. > For instance languages, knowledge on other databases, etc.. > -Do we want a "resume" posting feature? If so do we also want specific > fields for things which may go hand in hand with PostgreSQL such as a > specific OS knowledge (Linux, FreeBSD, etc) or a particular language (PHP, > etc)? I think certain things we may want to have fields for. In particular > OSs and selected languages such as Perl and PHP. This way it would make it > easier for those looking for people to be able to add more weight to their > search based on those criterias. > -Where are we going to host this? > -Will we have job agents for both employers and job seekers? > -How will we market this site? > > Notes: > 1) Money collected could be used to pay for enhancements or hosting. Or do > we want this to be an all volunteer effort? I personally would not mind > putting some money to get this project to succeed. In particular any of us > who would like to work fulltime with PostgreSQL can benefit from this > resource becoming a reality. Although volunteer work can be just as > succesfull paid work seems to do wonder for keeping something on track. >
To all those following this thread on general I would like to suggest that we follow this conversation in the www list. Maybe keeping it another day just so others see that we are moving. the www list is a closed list and your subscription will need to be approved. Send: subscribe pgsql-www To: majordomo@postgresql.org
On Sun, 2002-06-16 at 00:45, Sander Steffann wrote: > > > In the web application field hosting is just as big a PITA. > > > > How so? There are several companies out there that offer PgSQL hosting > > ... Hub.Org (http://www.hub.org) has been offering it since '95 ... > > I know of several companies here in The Netherlands that offer PostgreSQL > hosting. Our company (www.nederland.net) has also been offering it since > '95... And some web-appliances (Cobalt for example) have it pre-installed. Our clients here in France want to pay just one bill. They also want hosting in France. Generaly they want their ISP who is already hosting the static pages to host the dynamic ones too. Cheers Tony -- RedHat Linux on Sony Vaio C1XD/S http://www.animaproductions.com/linux2.html Macromedia UltraDev with PostgreSQL http://www.animaproductions.com/ultra.html
Hi, > > In the web application field hosting is just as big a PITA. > > How so? There are several companies out there that offer PgSQL hosting > ... Hub.Org (http://www.hub.org) has been offering it since '95 ... I know of several companies here in The Netherlands that offer PostgreSQL hosting. Our company (www.nederland.net) has also been offering it since '95... And some web-appliances (Cobalt for example) have it pre-installed. Sander.
Please note that this list is a *small, invite-only* list ... once those invited have something to present, such will be done on the -general list, so unless you've previously talked with Justin, Vince or myself, any subscription requests to this list will be rejected ... On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > To all those following this thread on general I would like to > suggest that we follow this conversation in the www list. > Maybe keeping it another day just so others see that we are moving. > > the www list is a closed list and your subscription will need to be > approved. > > Send: > subscribe pgsql-www > > To: > majordomo@postgresql.org > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org >
> > >Isn't RedHat the primary commercial entity pushing PostgreSQL these days? >See http://www.redhat.com/software/database/ > Actually I don't see much marketing from RedHat on their version at all. I see more from ourselves ;), dbExperts and PgSQL, Inc. Command Prompt, and dbExperts both actually advertise. >} 'PostgreSQL Inc' but they merely offer commercial support etc. > >Did anyone notice if RedHat was visibly pushing their database product, or >the PostgreSQL name? > There major push appears to be for RedHat DB. Which is PostgreSQL but only mentioned in the FAQ's. > >} If you read the histtory of mySQL you'll know that mySQL was essentially >} a company first (TcX Datakonsult AB) while postgreSQL has essentiually >} remained in the academic/open source environment. Remember also that it >} wasn't that long ago the mySQL was GPL'ed. It's all in the history :) > >What license is PostgreSQL, anyway? I never did find out when I was looking >for it. > >} Cheers, >} Graeme >--Greg > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > >http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html > >
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Darren Ferguson wrote: > O agree with design and architecture and getting them out of the way > early. This just makes the rest easier. It also makes it easier to distribute the work. > Project managemet if you want to do it great. I will be more than happy to > follow a lead. If needed i can help with design and archiecture issues. I will try to do my best with the PM and I think design and architecture should be a more communal issue given that the people who will volunteer to do the work should agree with the design/architecture choices. > Another big topic what web server will we use?? Apache, Aolserver ? I was thinking Apache because it is installed at the host we currently have. Do you have any preference? Any advantages of Aolserver over Apache?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Darren Ferguson wrote: > > > O agree with design and architecture and getting them out of the way > > early. > > This just makes the rest easier. It also makes it easier to distribute the > work. > > > Project managemet if you want to do it great. I will be more than happy to > > follow a lead. If needed i can help with design and archiecture issues. > > I will try to do my best with the PM and I think design and architecture > should be a more communal issue given that the people who will volunteer > to do the work should agree with the design/architecture choices. > > > Another big topic what web server will we use?? Apache, Aolserver ? > > I was thinking Apache because it is installed at the host we currently > have. Do you have any preference? Any advantages of Aolserver over Apache? Aolserver is what i use now hence the TCL background because it have the TCL built into it. There are pro's and cons for both and since Apache is already installed we would probably be better just going with Apache. I don't have a problem using either since i do use Apache in my spare time :-) Also i am going to install bash on the jobs.postgresql.org machine. I would like it global but do not have permissions. If i can't get them then i will just install it locally but for obvious reasons would prefer global. Anyone out there who may be able to either give me the permissions or has the permissions themself Thanks in advance > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > -- Darren Ferguson
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Managers will look at that problem and > say, "I can get DBAs for [insert certain product names] in an > instant, so PostgreSQL looks like a liability." That's too bad that they think that, because one can get up to speed pretty quickly on postgres if you've already been a DBA for another system. Perhaps those wanting to market postgres should stress that more. cjs -- Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> +81 90 7737 2974 http://www.netbsd.org Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light. --XTC