Thread: Training events policy ... first test case

Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Folks,

Everyone on this list who spoke up approved of the "No more than one training 
event per company per month" policy for training events.  The purpose of this 
policy is to prevent training companies from messing with our events listings 
in order to grab the "top 3 spots" from the home page.

EnterpriseDB has just submitted 3 trainings for November and 2 for December.  
While I believe that EDB actually plans on holding all of these trainings, it 
is the kind of flooding of the training listings that we're trying to 
prevent.  

How should we suggest they revise the training listings?  

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:58:28 -0700
Josh Berkus <> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Everyone on this list who spoke up approved of the "No more than one
> training event per company per month" policy for training events.
> The purpose of this policy is to prevent training companies from
> messing with our events listings in order to grab the "top 3 spots"
> from the home page.
>
> EnterpriseDB has just submitted 3 trainings for November and 2 for
> December. While I believe that EDB actually plans on holding all of
> these trainings, it is the kind of flooding of the training listings
> that we're trying to prevent.
>
> How should we suggest they revise the training listings?
>
Have them submit a single event that states:

Training events from November thru December

Joshua D. Drake

--
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Robert,

> Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you can
> always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them
> all.

They problem is that we *know* we have companies who are scheduling 
training sessions which will never be held, in order to keep their names 
in that "top 3".  Maybe we need to revisit how training events are listed 
on the home page?

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
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- --On Tuesday, October 23, 2007 14:28:11 -0700 Josh Berkus <> 
wrote:

> Robert,
>
>> Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you can
>> always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them
>> all.
>
> They problem is that we *know* we have companies who are scheduling
> training sessions which will never be held, in order to keep their names
> in that "top 3".  Maybe we need to revisit how training events are listed
> on the home page?

Why not make an 'events calendar', instead of a scrolling list of events?

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Robert Treat
Date:
On Tuesday 23 October 2007 14:59, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:58:28 -0700
>
> Josh Berkus <> wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > Everyone on this list who spoke up approved of the "No more than one
> > training event per company per month" policy for training events.
> > The purpose of this policy is to prevent training companies from
> > messing with our events listings in order to grab the "top 3 spots"
> > from the home page.
> >
> > EnterpriseDB has just submitted 3 trainings for November and 2 for
> > December. While I believe that EDB actually plans on holding all of
> > these trainings, it is the kind of flooding of the training listings
> > that we're trying to prevent.
> >
> > How should we suggest they revise the training listings?
>
> Have them submit a single event that states:
>
> Training events from November thru December
>

That seems to suck in a number of ways; penalizes companies who offer more 
diverse training schedules, penalizes users looking for training in specific 
locales.  The classes between november and december have a month interval, if 
no other classes are taking place during that time, I think it is ok that 
thier listings show up, so for me this is not an issue.  Now, looking at each 
month individually, if we approve all 3 november events, currently that would 
knock out the modern course untill the 8th, which kind of sucks too.  The tie 
breaker for me is that it seems what is really important to someone looking 
for training is the date and location, so that two classes on different 
continents should not be penalized because they are put on by the same 
company (this thinking is re-enforced in that we dont show company names on 
the main page).  Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you 
can always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them 
all.  

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Robert Treat
Date:
On Tuesday 23 October 2007 17:28, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you can
> > always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them
> > all.
>
> They problem is that we *know* we have companies who are scheduling
> training sessions which will never be held, in order to keep their names
> in that "top 3".  Maybe we need to revisit how training events are listed
> on the home page?

Ok, but we know enterprisedb isnt one of them, so I say let them have at it, 
and for companies we find out are doing this, we put them on probation and 
limit them to 1 posting a month. 

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Magnus Hagander"
Date:
> > Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you can
> > always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them
> > all.
> 
> They problem is that we *know* we have companies who are scheduling 
> training sessions which will never be held, in order to keep their names 
> in that "top 3".  Maybe we need to revisit how training events are listed 
> on the home page?

If we _know_ they do this why don't we put a clear policy on what's allowed (which we should do anyway) and if they
breakthat we limit them to _zero_ posts for a couple of months until they start complying?
 

Unrelated, we could change the frontpage to only show the first event per company. The rest would only be listed on the
detailspage.
 

/Magnus


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Magnus,

> Unrelated, we could change the frontpage to only show the first event per
> company. The rest would only be listed on the details page.

That's a great idea!

What about also making the representation of training events more compact?
Currently we have a fairly space-consumptive layout:

2007-10-22 – 2007-10-26
PostgreSQL Administration Boot Camp
(Morrisville, NC, United States)

2007-11-13 – 2007-11-15
PostgreSQL Database Implementation, Management, and Tuning
(London, United Kingdom)

2007-11-12 – 2007-11-16
Intense PostgreSQL Training (Certification Available)
(Ontario, CA, United States)

What if we did:

Upcoming Training

PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
etc. ...

With all links actually going to:
http://www.postgresql.org/about/eventarchive#training
(yes, we'd have to create that header link)

That would make the fighting for the "top 3" spot less intense.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
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- --On Wednesday, October 24, 2007 08:56:35 -0700 Josh Berkus <>
wrote:

> Magnus,
>
>> Unrelated, we could change the frontpage to only show the first event per
>> company. The rest would only be listed on the details page.
>
> That's a great idea!
>
> What about also making the representation of training events more compact?
> Currently we have a fairly space-consumptive layout:
>
> 2007-10-22 – 2007-10-26
> PostgreSQL Administration Boot Camp
> (Morrisville, NC, United States)
>
> 2007-11-13 – 2007-11-15
> PostgreSQL Database Implementation, Management, and Tuning
> (London, United Kingdom)
>
> 2007-11-12 – 2007-11-16
> Intense PostgreSQL Training (Certification Available)
> (Ontario, CA, United States)
>
> What if we did:
>
> Upcoming Training
>
> PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
> PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
> Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
> PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
> etc. ...

I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not State/Province
... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow tired of clicking through if
the result is always something in the US, when all that really interests them
are stuff in the UK ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:10:19 -0300
"Marc G. Fournier" <> wrote:

> > What if we did:
> >
> > Upcoming Training
> >
> > PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
> > PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
> > Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
> > PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
> > etc. ...
>
> I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not
> State/Province ... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow tired
> of clicking through if the result is always something in the US, when
> all that really interests them are stuff in the UK ...

Country and State/Province.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> - ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org) Email .
>                               MSN . 
> Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Folks,

> > > PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
> > > PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
> > > Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
> > > PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
> > > etc. ...
> >
> > I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not
> > State/Province ... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow tired
> > of clicking through if the result is always something in the US, when
> > all that really interests them are stuff in the UK ...
>
> Country and State/Province.

Hmmm, let's stay on target here.  What I'm trying to do is to make those "top 
3" spots less valuable so that training providers won't fight over them.  
That is, so list enough on the home page to make people realize training 
exists, but have all links go to the full training listings.

Right now the issue is that training events get something like 1000 views a 
week while their on the home page, and < 100 views a week otherwise.  That's 
enough of a difference to make providers manipulate the listings a bit.  

So, I'd be happy with this as well:

USA, Atlanta ... 2007-10-22
USA, Edison ...2007-11-13
UK, London ...2007-11-12
Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01
etc.

I *don't* buy the argument that "we can trust EDB so they're exempt from the 
restrictions we level on other providers," since we don't seem to have cut 
OTG any slack whatsoever despite their contributions.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:51:28 -0700
Josh Berkus <> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> > > > PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
> > > > PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
> > > > Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
> > > > PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
> > > > etc. ...
> > >
> > > I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not
> > > State/Province ... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow
> > > tired of clicking through if the result is always something in
> > > the US, when all that really interests them are stuff in the
> > > UK ...
> >
> > Country and State/Province.
>
> Hmmm, let's stay on target here.  What I'm trying to do is to make
> those "top 3" spots less valuable so that training providers won't
> fight over them. That is, so list enough on the home page to make
> people realize training exists, but have all links go to the full
> training listings.

I believe we are. I agree with what you are trying to do, but I also
don't think providing unnecessary clicks to our community helps us any.
>
> Right now the issue is that training events get something like 1000
> views a week while their on the home page, and < 100 views a week
> otherwise.  That's enough of a difference to make providers
> manipulate the listings a bit.

Certainly.

>
> So, I'd be happy with this as well:
>
> USA, Atlanta ... 2007-10-22
> USA, Edison ...2007-11-13
> UK, London ...2007-11-12
> Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01
> etc.

Hmm I like that. I guess it depends on how much room we have on the
page for such a thing. One thought would be to swap LATEST NEWS for
UPCOMING TRAINING.

That would give more room to what is likely our most sought after
information on the front page.

>
> I *don't* buy the argument that "we can trust EDB so they're exempt
> from the restrictions we level on other providers," since we don't
> seem to have cut OTG any slack whatsoever despite their contributions.

I believe that we should not trust *any* company that is submitting
their news through a PR firm. PR firms, lie, on purpose, for profit.
They make money on manipulation, not truth or substance.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:51:28 -0700
> Josh Berkus <> wrote:
> Hmm I like that. I guess it depends on how much room we have on the
> page for such a thing. One thought would be to swap LATEST NEWS for
> UPCOMING TRAINING. 
> 
> That would give more room to what is likely our most sought after
> information on the front page.

I don't like that part :-)


>> I *don't* buy the argument that "we can trust EDB so they're exempt
>> from the restrictions we level on other providers," since we don't
>> seem to have cut OTG any slack whatsoever despite their contributions.
> 
> I believe that we should not trust *any* company that is submitting
> their news through a PR firm. PR firms, lie, on purpose, for profit.
> They make money on manipulation, not truth or substance.

Why does it matter how they're submitting it? Plus, we're talking
events, not news here.

But if we have a policy, *everybody* should be treated the same way
against it. Including edb, and including cmd if that would become an
issue. The only exception that would be reasonable is if there was a
completely community-driven not-for-profit training event, IMHO.

//Magnus


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:30:23 +0200
Magnus Hagander <> wrote:

> > That would give more room to what is likely our most sought after
> > information on the front page.
>
> I don't like that part :-)

Well I am not suggesting removing news. I think that would be bad.

>
> But if we have a policy, *everybody* should be treated the same way
> against it. Including edb, and including cmd if that would become an
> issue. The only exception that would be reasonable is if there was a
> completely community-driven not-for-profit training event, IMHO.

I did say *any*. Everyone should be treated fairly (although I believe
that contributors should get first billing but that is a different
thread).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> //Magnus
>


--
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
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Hash: SHA1



- --On Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:51:28 -0700 Josh Berkus
<> 
wrote:

> So, I'd be happy with this as well:
>
> USA, Atlanta ... 2007-10-22
> USA, Edison ...2007-11-13
> UK, London ...2007-11-12
> Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01
> etc.

I like this one ... shows that training can be found around the world ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Peter Eisentraut
Date:
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Hmmm, let's stay on target here.  What I'm trying to do is to make
> those "top 3" spots less valuable so that training providers won't
> fight over them. That is, so list enough on the home page to make
> people realize training exists, but have all links go to the full
> training listings.

I suggest removing the top 3 items from the home page and put the 
complete listing on a different page altogether.  A link 
called "Training" should be obvious enough.  In reality, the training 
that happens now or next week shouldn't really interest anyone.  
Attending that sort of stuff is planned months in advance.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Peter, All,

> I suggest removing the top 3 items from the home page and put the
> complete listing on a different page altogether.  A link
> called "Training" should be obvious enough.  In reality, the training
> that happens now or next week shouldn't really interest anyone.
> Attending that sort of stuff is planned months in advance.

I think this makes sense.  It certainly would be the easiest way to fix 
things.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Simon Riggs
Date:
On Wed, 2007-10-24 at 19:01 -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> > So, I'd be happy with this as well:
> >
> > USA, Atlanta ... 2007-10-22
> > USA, Edison ...2007-11-13
> > UK, London ...2007-11-12
> > Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01
> > etc.
> 
> I like this one ... shows that training can be found around the world ...

Not sure about that. It assumes people are more interested in location
than they are about content. People used to do "training", but now the
range of available classes is increasing and not all training is the
same, so the short description is essential, the location is not.

The main issue seems to be that there are only 3 slots.

We're wasting loads of space elsewhere on the home page and we should
make better use of that. Or, as Magnus suggested way back, have the main
page scroll down the page further.

Things are pretty much the same with blogs. People writing one line
blogs to force other people's names off the list. 

Maybe we need some kind of regionalisation, randomisation or click-thru
oriented prioritisation. Good blogs stay higher, longer etc..

--  Simon Riggs 2ndQuadrant  http://www.2ndQuadrant.com



Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Hello,<br /><br /> Josh Berkus wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre
wrap="">Peter,All,
 
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">I suggest removing the top 3 items from the home page and put the
complete listing on a different page altogether.  A link
called "Training" should be obvious enough.  In reality, the training
that happens now or next week shouldn't really interest anyone.
Attending that sort of stuff is planned months in advance.   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
I think this makes sense.  It certainly would be the easiest way to fix 
things.
 </pre></blockquote> Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few enrollments the week before a class... 
solisting classes that are "next week" is a good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all training companies.... 
<br/><br /> For us, this becomes even more attractive to companies that decide on last minute training but wouldn't
otherwisego but for the cost of last minute travel.  In our case, we offer an "all inclusive" package, that we usually 
honorup until the day before a class (assuming there is space in the class).  <br /><br /> Showing classes that are
currentlyoccurring doesn't seem like a good idea since its too late to enroll.  However, it's not uncommon for a course
startingnext week to not make it to the homepage until the week it starts...and for that to drive some last minute
enrollments.<br/><br /> just my 2 cents.<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a></pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> ------- Original Message -------
> From: Chander Ganesan <>
> To: 
> Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
> 
> Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few enrollments 
> the week before a class...  so listing classes that are "next week" is a 
> good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all training companies.... 

Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from /index.html altogether and replace them
witha dynamically generated summary saying something like:
 

"There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt,
2ndQuadrant and others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
 

The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and we could just grab 3 or 4 company names randomly.

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> 
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> From: Chander Ganesan <>
>> To: 
>> Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
>>
>> Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few enrollments 
>> the week before a class...  so listing classes that are "next week" is a 
>> good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all training companies.... 
> 
> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from /index.html altogether and replace them
witha dynamically generated summary saying something like:
 
> 
> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt,
2ndQuadrant and others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
 
> 
> The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and we could just grab 3 or 4 company names randomly.

I like it. Takes away the whole problem, really. So +1 from me.

//Magnus


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Tom Lane
Date:
"Dave Page" <> writes:
> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from /index.html altogether and replace them
witha dynamically generated summary saying something like:
 

> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt,
2ndQuadrant and others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
 

Love it, if not too difficult to implement.  Solves the whole problem.
        regards, tom lane


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



- --On Saturday, November 03, 2007 14:15:32 -0400 Tom Lane <> 
wrote:

> "Dave Page" <> writes:
>> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from
>> /index.html altogether and replace them with a dynamically generated summary
>> saying something like:
>
>> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6
>> months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and others. View
>> the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
>
> Love it, if not too difficult to implement.  Solves the whole problem.

That 'from' list could get fairly long, no?  Why not just cut out the 'from' 
part of it, leave it as '24 training events in 9 countries schedualed over the 
next 6 months' and then a click thru to the actual list?

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Saturday, November 03, 2007 14:15:32 -0400 Tom Lane <> 
> wrote:
> 
>> "Dave Page" <> writes:
>>> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from
>>> /index.html altogether and replace them with a dynamically generated summary
>>> saying something like:
>>> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6
>>> months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and others. View
>>> the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
>> Love it, if not too difficult to implement.  Solves the whole problem.
> 
> That 'from' list could get fairly long, no?  Why not just cut out the 'from' 
> part of it, leave it as '24 training events in 9 countries schedualed over the 
> next 6 months' and then a click thru to the actual list?

Daves suggestion was to pull a couple of company names at random, and
then include the "and others" part. That way you'll get a circulation on
who's listed there without making the list take up half our frontpage.

I like that better than to cut the names completely. Still with click
thru to the actual list, of course.

//Magnus


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



- --On Saturday, November 03, 2007 19:51:20 +0100 Magnus Hagander 
<> wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>
>>
>> --On Saturday, November 03, 2007 14:15:32 -0400 Tom Lane <>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Dave Page" <> writes:
>>>> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from
>>>> /index.html altogether and replace them with a dynamically generated
>>>> summary saying something like:
>>>> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6
>>>> months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and others.
>>>> View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
>>> Love it, if not too difficult to implement.  Solves the whole problem.
>>
>> That 'from' list could get fairly long, no?  Why not just cut out the 'from'
>> part of it, leave it as '24 training events in 9 countries schedualed over
>> the  next 6 months' and then a click thru to the actual list?
>
> Daves suggestion was to pull a couple of company names at random, and
> then include the "and others" part. That way you'll get a circulation on
> who's listed there without making the list take up half our frontpage.

That works too

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Magnus Hagander wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Dave Page wrote:
</pre><blockquotetype="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">------- Original Message -------
 
From: Chander Ganesan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case

Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few enrollments 
the week before a class...  so listing classes that are "next week" is a 
good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all training companies....      </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Here's a
possiblycrazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4 listings from /index.html altogether and replace them with a
dynamicallygenerated summary saying something like:
 

"There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt,
2ndQuadrant and others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training you want."
 

The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and we could just grab 3 or 4 company names randomly.
</pre></blockquote><prewrap="">
 
I like it. Takes away the whole problem, really. So +1 from me.
 </pre></blockquote> I've got mixed feelings about it, for a few reasons:<br /><br /> - The problem, as I see it, is
reallyin culling from the list those companies that post training events to achieve one of the following:<br />     A. 
Gain"front page" status by posting events they have no intention of running (this definitely addresses that).<br />    
B. Gan "overwhelming odds" status by listing a whole lots of events, the majority of which they never intend to run.  I
knowof a number of different training companies (not all of which offer PostgreSQL training) that do the following:<br
/>       - List courses in many cities at once for lead generation.<br />        - Follow up with those leads by
"consolidating"them into a single class they run in a single city.<br /><br /> Consider that when you advertise on
Googleif you have three impressions per page (say 2 natural search results and a single paid result) your leads
actuallygo up by more than a factor of three...the more impressions the better results, and the response is
non-linear. <br /><br /> The same thing occurs with the PG training page.  Legitimate providers are unable to compete
aseffectively because they list courses they intend to run...and not a mashup of courses designed to generate leads.<br
/><br/> The proposal drives people to look at a training page, and limits those "front page" impressions.  However it
doesnot address the fact that when someone goes to the training page they have to somehow sift through an immense
amountof courses, many of which may not run, and many of which are designed for lead generation, rather than to drive
enrollmentin a single class.<br /><br /> The question is really, how do you weed out the legitimate courses from the
not-so-legitimateones?  I think that there isn't a really "good" way, and hence some sort of restriction...  Some
ideas:<br/><br /> - Have training providers provide the name of their instructors and a few references, then limit them
toposting courses that those instructors would be able to teach (and an instructor can't be in two places at once). 
Thishowever placed an undue burden on PGDG, since now you have to weed out instructors.<br /> - Have providers pay a
non-trivialadministrative fee to list a course ($1000 per course listing?) .  A small fee would be a license to ill, a
largerfee however would serve as a deterrent (and the fee is a donation..).  This however places an undue burden on
smallercompanies or companies that are venturing into this area and thus stymies growth.<b><br /> - Have providers pay
anon-trivial fee for each course over the 8 per year free listings.  Say 8 free listings per year, others are $1000
apiece. This would allow EDB's and OTG's to legitimately list courses they intend to offer, and prevent "spam" type
postings.</b><br/><br /> My guess is that those folks that aren't legitimate will probably start to drop off when they
findthe cost of using bait and switch techniques becomes unfeasible.<br /><br /> 8 a month works even better for those
growingcompanies.  They can offer lots of courses at the start of the year (back to back, whatever) and if they are
successfulthey can pay the fee to continue the practice later in the year.<br /><br /> I like the third one, it allows
forcommunity growth, and the regular courses offered by BNR, Modern, and others.  If a company really plans to offer
30+courses a year and run them, I'm sure that they wouldn't mind paying a bit extra...especially considering they are
"cleaningup" running all those courses with the large frequency.<br /><br /> In general, people, once they enroll or
arein contact with a single vendor, don't go out of their way to search for something else unless their experience
(takinga crappy course) drives them elsewhere.  If I have someone enroll and tell them that they have to wait until
nextmonth, or fly to some other city for the course, they won't be happy...but more times than not they will most
likelydo it...since it saves them the work of looking elsewhere for training.  It's a sad thing to say, but I think its
thetruth.  An example for us was a Sony subdivision company.  They went somewhere else for training and absolutely
hatedit...their training was someone with some unix admin experience, but almost no PG experience.  Their course was
originallyscheduled in the LA area, but they ended up having to fly to a different city for the course.  At the time,
theywere even reluctant to provide the name of the company, since they were considering pursuing legal action to get
theirmoney back<br /><br /> When they looked to train other staff they called and gave us the third degree, asked for
references,asked technical questions, asked about experience, etc.  I think if customers did that right off the bat,
thewhole training industry would be a lot smaller....  <br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:03:31 -0000
"Dave Page" <> wrote:

> 
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > From: Chander Ganesan <>
> > To: 
> > Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
> > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
> > 
> > Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few
> > enrollments the week before a class...  so listing classes that are
> > "next week" is a good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all
> > training companies.... 
> 
> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4
> listings from /index.html altogether and replace them with a
> dynamically generated summary saying something like:
> 
> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next
> 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and
> others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training
> you want."
> 
> The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and we could just grab 3
> or 4 company names randomly.

That is actually pretty cool. 

+1

Joshua D. Drake


> 
> /D
> 
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: if posting/reading
> through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command
> to  so that your message can get through to
> the mailing list cleanly
> 


- -- 
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/        UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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=K0iR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:03:31 -0000
> "Dave Page" <> wrote:
> 
> 
>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>> From: Chander Ganesan <>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
>>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
>>>
>>> Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few
>>> enrollments the week before a class...  so listing classes that are
>>> "next week" is a good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all
>>> training companies.... 
>> Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3 or 4
>> listings from /index.html altogether and replace them with a
>> dynamically generated summary saying something like:
> 
>> "There are 24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next
>> 6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and
>> others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training
>> you want."
> 
>> The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and we could just grab 3
>> or 4 company names randomly.
> 
> That is actually pretty cool. 
> 
> +1

Thanks.

http://dave.pgadmin.org/

To try it out. Before anyone asks, it does properly handle the case when
there are less than 4 companies with events in the next 6 months and
modifies the text accordingly.

If noone objects, I'll commit in a day or two.

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Dave Page wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Joshua D. Drake
wrote:</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:03:31 -0000
 
"Dave Page" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a>
wrote:

   </pre><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">------- Original Message -------
From: Chander Ganesan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
Sent: 03/11/07, 16:31:33
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case

Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few
enrollments the week before a class...  so listing classes that are
"next week" is a good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all
training companies....        </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Here's a possibly crazy idea - how about we remove the 3
or4
 
listings from /index.html altogether and replace them with a
dynamically generated summary saying something like:     </pre></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">"There
are24 training events in 9 countries scheduled over the next
 
6 months from OTG, EnterpriseDB, Command Prompt, 2nd Quadrant and
others. View the complete schedule to find the PostgreSQL training
you want."     </pre></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">The numbers are easy to calcuate of course, and
wecould just grab 3
 
or 4 company names randomly.     </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">That is actually pretty cool. 

+1   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Thanks.

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dave.pgadmin.org/">http://dave.pgadmin.org/</a>

To try it out. Before anyone asks, it does properly handle the case when
there are less than 4 companies with events in the next 6 months and
modifies the text accordingly.

If noone objects, I'll commit in a day or two. </pre></blockquote> Perhaps the font size can be reduced so that its
morein line with the size used for events.  It looks a bit bigger than everything else on the page, kind of an
eye-draw...<br/><br /> However, I think this brings to the forefront issue #2...that certain companies use training
eventsas a lead generation tool...much the same way that some companies will post many press releases around the same
timeto generate leads for their products.<br /><br /> I know that there are some "guidelines" for the press release
issue,why not apply something similar to training events?  Or perhaps the "8 per year and pay for more"
strategy....witha "per event" fee ($1000 USD in the US?) for additional events that varies based on the country of
incorporation(so Brazilian companies would pay a smaller fee than an American one)....<br /><br /> Heck, perhaps even
"8per year per course type"?  So companies would have an added incentive to grow their PG offerings (this might be a
bitone-sided, since AFAIK we offer the widest range of PG courses), but it seems like a good strategy to keep things on
theup-and-up.  Such a strategy would also make sense (IMHO) for folks like EDB, which has a couple of courses, and
Modernand BNR, that offer their courses only sporadically.<br /><blockquote cite="mid:"
type="cite"><prewrap="">
 
/D

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate      subscribe-nomail command to <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"href="mailto:"></a> so that your
messagecan get through to the mailing list cleanly </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature"
cols="72">--
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Tom Lane
Date:
Chander Ganesan <> writes:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> http://dave.pgadmin.org/
>> 
>> To try it out. Before anyone asks, it does properly handle the case when
>> there are less than 4 companies with events in the next 6 months and
>> modifies the text accordingly.

> Perhaps the font size can be reduced so that its more in line with the 
> size used for events.  It looks a bit bigger than everything else on the 
> page, kind of an eye-draw...

I'm not sure if it's the font size or just the fact that it's a big slug
of text, but it does seem a bit dominating.  Maybe we should go with
Marc's suggestion to drop the list of company names.
        regards, tom lane


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 23:22:11 +0000
Dave Page <> wrote:

> > That is actually pretty cool. 
> > 
> > +1
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> http://dave.pgadmin.org/
> 
> To try it out. Before anyone asks, it does properly handle the case
> when there are less than 4 companies with events in the next 6 months
> and modifies the text accordingly.
> 
> If noone objects, I'll commit in a day or two.

Kudos on this but I agree with the blob of text argument.. perhaps we
could change:

There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.

To:

21 events in 4 countries <link over the next six months >.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




> 
> /D
> 
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: if posting/reading
> through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command
> to  so that your message can get through to
> the mailing list cleanly
> 


- -- 
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/        UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Tom Lane
Date:
Kevin Hunter <> writes:
> Or perhaps:

> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
> from 13 different companies.

+1, especially if the number of companies is noticeably more than
three-or-four.
        regards, tom lane


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



- --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 00:53:48 -0400 Kevin Hunter 
<> wrote:

> At 11:51p -0400 on 03 Nov 2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Kudos on this but I agree with the blob of text argument.. perhaps we
>> could change:
>>
>> There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
>> months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
>> Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.
>>
>> To:
>>
>> 21 events in 4 countries <link over the next six months >.
>
> Or perhaps:
>
> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
> from 13 different companies.

I like this, reduces the 'pick-n-choose' which companies to choose ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Kevin Hunter
Date:
At 11:51p -0400 on 03 Nov 2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Kudos on this but I agree with the blob of text argument.. perhaps we
> could change:
> 
> There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
> months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
> Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.
> 
> To:
> 
> 21 events in 4 countries <link over the next six months >.

Or perhaps:

In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
from 13 different companies.

Kevin


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
<br /><blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><pre
wrap="">At11:51p -0400 on 03 Nov 2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote:   </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Kudos on
thisbut I agree with the blob of text argument.. perhaps we
 
could change:

There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.

To:

21 events in 4 countries <link over the next six months >.     </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Or perhaps:

In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
from 13 different companies.   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
I like this, reduces the 'pick-n-choose' which companies to choose ... </pre></blockquote><br /> After some further
thought,I don't think that doing this is in the best interest of the community, or the companies that offer training. 
Mostpeople learn about training events that might be of interest to them via the smattering of courses that are listed
onthe main page.  Aside from those people, there is a small group of people that are actually actively looking for
trainingthat will go to the "training" page for upcoming events.<br /><br /> As such, providers who might want to
increasetheir support for PostgreSQL or related products will have less incentive to do so, since its unlikely that
theircourses will even be considered.  For example, we offer a "PostgreSQL Performance Tuning" course that focuses on
topicsthat would be of interest to experience PostgreSQL administrators.  This course is geared at folks who have lots
ofPG experience - and thus aren't interested in training.  We commonly see enrollment for this course when the course
hitsthe front page, and little to no enrollment in it at other times.  If we offer it a few times and don't get a
certainenrollment level, we'll just stop offering it.  The same would be true of other courses that we offer, such as
"Implementingdatabases with PostgreSQL", which we've had specific community requests for on -advocacy, but which
probablywouldn't get much enrollment in unless it hit the front page.<br /><br /> I'm torn on this, on one hand I'm
surethe intention is to allow the community to grow and prosper as much as possible, while on the other hand to take an
even-handedapproach to the display of upcoming courses on the homepage.<br /><br /> What are the chances of adding a
coursetitle or two on that display on the home page.  For example:<br /><br /><pre wrap="">In the next six months,
thereare <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
 
<span class="moz-txt-citetags"></span>from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and PostgreSQL
Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.</pre><br /><blockquote
cite="mid:"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.hub.org">http://www.hub.org</a>)
Email . <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
  MSN . <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Tom Lane wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Kevin Hunter <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"href="mailto:"><></a> writes:
</pre><blockquotetype="cite"><pre wrap="">Or perhaps:   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap=""> </pre><blockquote
type="cite"><prewrap="">In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
 
from 13 different companies.   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
+1, especially if the number of companies is noticeably more than
three-or-four. </pre></blockquote> I'm still opposed to event spam..which everyone seems to conveniently ignore when I
bringit up. :-( .<br /><br /> How about trying to limit the number of events that a company can have on the list at a
time? Say a maximum of 5 events listed at a time?  That's fairly even handed, and would force folks to post courses
thatthey would consider would have some likelihood of running?<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
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- --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 01:53:35 -0400 Chander Ganesan 
<> wrote:

> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
> from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and
> PostgreSQL
> Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.

You'd need to go something like:

Over the next 6 months, there are <link>21 courses</link> being offered in 4 
countries, split up as:<p>
<ul> <li> 3 - Administration <li> 2 - Implementation <li> 9 - Tuning
</ul>

Or something like that ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Tom Lane
Date:
Chander Ganesan <> writes:
> I'm still opposed to event spam..which everyone seems to conveniently 
> ignore when I bring it up. :-( .

Oh, we hear you, we're just not sure what to do about it ...

> How about trying to limit the number of events that a company can have 
> on the list at a time?  Say a maximum of 5 events listed at a time?  
> That's fairly even handed, and would force folks to post courses that 
> they would consider would have some likelihood of running?

I don't much like this one, because it would skew the playing field in
favor of smaller companies.  If there were someone out there able to
field 100 events, but they could only advertise 5, how is that good for
either them or the potential attendees?

Conversely, I think your ultimate concern is with companies that can
really only field 5 events but advertise 100 to see what will happen :-(

Maybe we should try to discourage that sort of gamesmanship by instead
allowing/supporting ad campaigns on the order of "call us, we'll bring
our training to you", or "vote here for course X offered in city Y at
time Z".
        regards, tom lane


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
jam@zoidtechnologies.com
Date:
On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 12:53:48AM -0400, Kevin Hunter wrote:
> At 11:51p -0400 on 03 Nov 2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Kudos on this but I agree with the blob of text argument.. perhaps we
> > could change:
> > 
> > There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
> > months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
> > Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.
> > 
> > To:
> > 
> > 21 events in 4 countries <link over the next six months >.
> 
> Or perhaps:
> 
> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
> from 13 different companies.
> 

how about "...in <link>4 countries</link>" so that I can look only at
courses in a specific country?

also, how about some text like:

here are some examples of the courses available:
<ul>
[events selected at random limit 5]
</ul>

that way an event has a chance of getting on the front page.

> Kevin

regards,
J
-- 
http://zoidtechnologies.com/ -- software that sucks less


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Josh Berkus wrote:
> All,
>
>> There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
>> months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
>> Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.
>
> Sounds good to me.  Can we have a non-US company in there somewhere? 
> Maybe Dextra Systemas?
>
> --Josh
I've got another idea...

There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.

18 PostgreSQL Administration
3 PostgreSQL Implementation, Performance & Tuning
2 Implementing Databases with PostgreSQL
And 6 other types

The real estate is definitely there from the old way that events were 
listed, we could show 3 upcoming "course types" with the most recent of 
each type listed.  That allows visitors to see the range of offerings as 
well as some numbers.

I still think that there should be a limit as to the number of courses a 
vendor can list and/or a limit on the number of each type of course (for 
example, dextra could list a maximum of 3 upcoming admin courses, 3 
upcoming intro courses, etc.).  Limiting by type would also encourage 
training vendors to put more effort into offering a range of courses, 
and keep things on the up-and-up from a listing perspective...thus 
preventing event spam.

-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com



Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
All,

> There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
> months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
> Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.

Sounds good to me.  Can we have a non-US company in there somewhere? 
Maybe Dextra Systemas?

--Josh


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre
wrap="">-----BEGINPGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
Hash: SHA1



- --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 01:53:35 -0400 Chander Ganesan 
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a> wrote:
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4
countries
from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and
PostgreSQL
Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
You'd need to go something like:

Over the next 6 months, there are <link>21 courses</link> being offered in 4 
countries, split up as:<p>
<ul> <li> 3 - Administration <li> 2 - Implementation <li> 9 - Tuning
</ul>

Or something like that ... </pre></blockquote><br /> I really like this layout.  It takes out the question of showing a
companyname, which is just wordiness anyways, and then we have to worry about equal exposure.  Just list the 3 upcoming
coursesby type/name/etc and then show them on the list.<br /><br /> I *still* think (and am apparently still
ignored...)there should be limits placed on the number of events a vendor can list...either by type, or by vendor.  A
vendoris less likely to post "training spam", and more likely to post events they really plan to run when they have a
limitas to their total listings...<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Tom Lane wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Chander Ganesan <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"href="mailto:"><></a> writes: </pre><blockquote
type="cite"><prewrap="">I'm still opposed to event spam..which everyone seems to conveniently 
 
ignore when I bring it up. :-( .   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Oh, we hear you, we're just not sure what to do about it ...
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">How about trying to limit the number of events that a company can have 
on the list at a time?  Say a maximum of 5 events listed at a time?  
That's fairly even handed, and would force folks to post courses that 
they would consider would have some likelihood of running?   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
I don't much like this one, because it would skew the playing field in
favor of smaller companies.  If there were someone out there able to
field 100 events, but they could only advertise 5, how is that good for
either them or the potential attendees? </pre></blockquote> First off, I apologize..I didn't see this before I sent out
mylast message (where I said I felt like I was being ignored..).<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
Conversely, I think your ultimate concern is with companies that can
really only field 5 events but advertise 100 to see what will happen :-( </pre></blockquote> That's the gist of it, but
Idon't see how you can differentiate between the two and be "fair".  <br /><br /> I think that if the time came where
someonesaid "this is too restrictive, I can field lots of events and want to" then this could be revisited.  At
present,I don't think there is anyone that can do so.  I also don't think the training market for PG events is big
enoughto support such a thing anyways..  Also, keep in mind that this isn't the only venue for advertising events. 
Lotsof other venues exist...  This is just one of them...<br /><br /> Besides, someone would be able to list their 5
upcomingcourses and as soon as one drops off add another to the end.  If you consider admin courses alone that's
listinga calendar 5 months in advance (potentially).<br /><blockquote cite="mid:"
type="cite"><prewrap="">
 
Maybe we should try to discourage that sort of gamesmanship by instead
allowing/supporting ad campaigns on the order of "call us, we'll bring
our training to you", or "vote here for course X offered in city Y at
time Z". </pre></blockquote> I think that might be worse than the situation we have now..  <br /><br /> chander<br
/><br/><br /><blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre wrap="">            regards, tom
lane

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate      subscribe-nomail command to <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"href="mailto:"></a> so that your
messagecan get through to the mailing list cleanly </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature"
cols="72">--
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> 
> - --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 01:53:35 -0400 Chander Ganesan 
> <> wrote:
> 
>> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
>> from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and
>> PostgreSQL
>> Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.
> 
> You'd need to go something like:
> 
> Over the next 6 months, there are <link>21 courses</link> being offered in 4 
> countries, split up as:<p>
> <ul>
>   <li> 3 - Administration
>   <li> 2 - Implementation
>   <li> 9 - Tuning
> </ul>
> 
> Or something like that ...

That would require a much more significant redesign of the way we handle 
events which is not something I have time for atm unfortunately. For the 
record, I think we'd want to properly seperate them from the other 
events and allow them to be categorised in one or more categories (a 
single course might cover multiple topics).

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Tom Lane wrote:
> Kevin Hunter <> writes:
>> Or perhaps:
> 
>> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
>> from 13 different companies.
> 
> +1, especially if the number of companies is noticeably more than
> three-or-four.

Grr - the companies bit was the part that took all the time :-)

The way it is now, it will never name more than three companies, of 
which it will pull the names randomly from the upcoming events.

I think it's useful to keep the companies names there as it will give 
people more of an impression of the range of different training 
providers available. I'll play with the wording and layout later (maybe 
tomorrow) and see if I can address the general concern that it looks too 
'blocky'.

If that doesn't work, I'll back it off to just the count.

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Josh Berkus wrote:
> All,
> 
>> There are 21 training events in 4 countries scheduled over the next six
>> months from EnterpriseDB, CertFirst, Open Technology Group and others.
>> Take a look at our schedule to find the training that you want.
> 
> Sounds good to me.  Can we have a non-US company in there somewhere? 
> Maybe Dextra Systemas?

We could if they scheduled a course in the next six months. The names 
are taken randomly from whoever has something scheduled.

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> >> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
> >> from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and
> >> PostgreSQL
> >> Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.
> > 
> > You'd need to go something like:
> > 
> > Over the next 6 months, there are <link>21 courses</link> being offered in 4 
> > countries, split up as:<p>
> > <ul>
> >   <li> 3 - Administration
> >   <li> 2 - Implementation
> >   <li> 9 - Tuning
> > </ul>
> > 
> > Or something like that ...
> 
> That would require a much more significant redesign of the way we handle 
> events which is not something I have time for atm unfortunately. For the 
> record, I think we'd want to properly seperate them from the other 
> events and allow them to be categorised in one or more categories (a 
> single course might cover multiple topics).

Personally I never liked having the "more" link show both events and
training because the design suggests that "more" and "submit event" goes
only with training.  The fact we only have one event listed:
http://www.postgresql.org/about/eventarchive

suggests that people don't realize they can submit events using the link
under Training.  That should be fixed somehow.

FYI, why is the Brazil Postgres conference not listed:
http://www.postgresql.org.br/

--  Bruce Momjian  <>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Chander Ganesan wrote:
> I *still* think (and am apparently still ignored...) there should be 
> limits placed on the number of events a vendor can list...either by 
> type, or by vendor.  A vendor is less likely to post "training spam", 
> and more likely to post events they really plan to run when they have a 
> limit as to their total listings...

The problem is that we don't want to prevent legitimate courses being 
listed. As PostgreSQL grows, and the companies around it grow there will 
inevitably be more and more courses scheduled, especially by the bigger 
multi-national players.

Regards, Dave


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> Chander Ganesan wrote:
>> I *still* think (and am apparently still ignored...) there should be 
>> limits placed on the number of events a vendor can list...either by 
>> type, or by vendor.  A vendor is less likely to post "training spam", 
>> and more likely to post events they really plan to run when they have 
>> a limit as to their total listings...
>
> The problem is that we don't want to prevent legitimate courses being 
> listed. As PostgreSQL grows, and the companies around it grow there 
> will inevitably be more and more courses scheduled, especially by the 
> bigger multi-national players.
>
> Regards, Dave
I understand, however the issue now isn't one of growth...IMHO it's one 
of growth being stymied because we have a list of training events that 
doesn't represent classes *actually* being offered.  Seems like at the 
very least a short term "band aid" solution could be applied while we 
try to figure out a way to adequately and fairly address the issue...  
I'm sure as time goes on we'll come to better understand the needs of 
companies that legitimately offer training courses.

-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com



Re: [SPAM] Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>
>> - --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 01:53:35 -0400 Chander Ganesan 
>> <> wrote:
>>
>>> In the next six months, there are <link>21 events</link> in 4 countries
>>> from 13 different companies, including PostgreSQL Administration, and
>>> PostgreSQL
>>> Database Implement ion and Performance Tuning events.
>>
>> You'd need to go something like:
>>
>> Over the next 6 months, there are <link>21 courses</link> being 
>> offered in 4 countries, split up as:<p>
>> <ul>
>>   <li> 3 - Administration
>>   <li> 2 - Implementation
>>   <li> 9 - Tuning
>> </ul>
>>
>> Or something like that ...
>
> That would require a much more significant redesign of the way we 
> handle events which is not something I have time for atm 
> unfortunately. For the record, I think we'd want to properly seperate 
> them from the other events and allow them to be categorised in one or 
> more categories (a single course might cover multiple topics).
I think perhaps not.  We already have course titles...and vendors 
consistently use the same name for their courses.  We could simply take 
the course names, their counts, and when the most recent of any 
particular group of courses (start date) is.  Then list the three most 
recent (in terms of start date) along with a count as to the number of 
times they are offered...

Like: Upcoming courses:

PostgreSQL Administration (14 events)
PostgreSQL Cool Tricks and Stuff (3 events)
PostgreSQL for Dummies (1 event)
plus 4 Other events...

If you can send me some DDL I can write up a sample query...
>
> /D
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
>               http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq


-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com



Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



- --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:53:47 -0500 Chander Ganesan 
<> wrote:

> I understand, however the issue now isn't one of growth...IMHO it's one of
> growth being stymied because we have a list of training events that doesn't
> represent classes *actually* being offered.  Seems like at the very least a
> short term "band aid" solution could be applied while we try to figure out a
> way to adequately and fairly address the issue...  I'm sure as time goes on
> we'll come to better understand the needs of companies that legitimately
> offer training courses.

How is this much different then universities / colleges that offer Course 
timeslot X/Y and Z, but cancel slot Z because there wasn't enough enrollment to 
make it worth doign?

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email .                               MSN . 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 10:53:47 -0500
Chander Ganesan <> wrote:

> Dave Page wrote:
> > Chander Ganesan wrote:
> >> I *still* think (and am apparently still ignored...) there should
> >> be limits placed on the number of events a vendor can
> >> list...either by type, or by vendor.  A vendor is less likely to
> >> post "training spam", and more likely to post events they really
> >> plan to run when they have a limit as to their total listings...
> >
> > The problem is that we don't want to prevent legitimate courses
> > being listed. As PostgreSQL grows, and the companies around it grow
> > there will inevitably be more and more courses scheduled,
> > especially by the bigger multi-national players.
> >
> > Regards, Dave
> I understand, however the issue now isn't one of growth...IMHO it's
> one of growth being stymied because we have a list of training events
> that doesn't represent classes *actually* being offered.

I seriously doubt that postgresql training growth is being stymied by
one obscure link among dozens on a website front page.

Joshua D. Drake



- -- 
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/        UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:06:55 -0400
"Marc G. Fournier" <> wrote:


> > I understand, however the issue now isn't one of growth...IMHO it's
> > one of growth being stymied because we have a list of training
> > events that doesn't represent classes *actually* being offered.
> > Seems like at the very least a short term "band aid" solution could
> > be applied while we try to figure out a way to adequately and
> > fairly address the issue...  I'm sure as time goes on we'll come to
> > better understand the needs of companies that legitimately offer
> > training courses.
> 
> How is this much different then universities / colleges that offer
> Course timeslot X/Y and Z, but cancel slot Z because there wasn't
> enough enrollment to make it worth doign?

Colleges do that as a last resort, versus a companies that does it by
design.

Joshua D. Drake



- -- 
     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/        UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:" type="cite"><pre
wrap="">-----BEGINPGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
Hash: SHA1



- --On Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:53:47 -0500 Chander Ganesan 
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a> wrote:
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">I understand, however the issue now isn't one of growth...IMHO it's one of
growth being stymied because we have a list of training events that doesn't
represent classes *actually* being offered.  Seems like at the very least a
short term "band aid" solution could be applied while we try to figure out a
way to adequately and fairly address the issue...  I'm sure as time goes on
we'll come to better understand the needs of companies that legitimately
offer training courses.   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
How is this much different then universities / colleges that offer Course 
timeslot X/Y and Z, but cancel slot Z because there wasn't enough enrollment to 
make it worth doign? </pre></blockquote> I think the University has the intention of offering the class, they also have
anestablished and published rule in regard to the criteria to offer the course, they have an instructor that is slated
andavailable to teach the class in advance, they have a facility that is "reserved" in advance for the event, etc.  I
couldgo on and on....  In our case, we've got companies that are using the training list for lead generation, to sell
PGrelated services and/or training.  One such company in question apparently lists themselves as a consulting company
thatalso offers PG training (refer to the PG services page).<br /><br /> If someone goes to the training page, they see
20+events, all in different cities, some of which are "close by" to them..so they give them a call.  They then get a
marketpitch for an on-site course, PG consulting services, or "herded" into a different class in a different cities,
wherethey try to "pool" sufficient people for a class.  It's a common technique in the training industry...<br /><br />
It'sno different than, say CMD, listing training events so they can gain leads for on-site training or PG services. 
Theydon't do it (and I doubt that JD would stoop to that level), but it illustrates the point.<br /><br /> From my
perspective,we offer a quality product...in a competitive market, with above-the-board business practices we've been
ableto flourish - as have a number of others (Modern, BNR, EDB, etc).  I'd hate to see companies stop offering PG
training,or reduce the frequency of such courses, because of such practices by others.  As Tom said, he recognizes
thereis a problem...I think most of us do...<br /><br /> chander<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.hub.org">http://www.hub.org</a>)
Email . <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
  MSN . <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:"></a>
 
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20071104082524.4ae7524c@scratch" type="cite"><pre wrap="">
I seriously doubt that postgresql training growth is being stymied by
one obscure link among dozens on a website front page. </pre></blockquote> I think it's stymied by 30+ events in 5+
citieslisted on the training page by one or more companies that has plans to run maybe 1 of those courses, if any. 
Checkout the training event list...  <br /><br /> I think that the training page should list only events that have a
moderatechance of running...that's my whole point.  <br /><br /> chander<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:20071104082524.4ae7524c@scratch"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
Joshua D. Drake



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datatypesdo not      match </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:49:04 -0500
Chander Ganesan <> wrote:


> It's no different than, say CMD, listing training events so they can 
> gain leads for on-site training or PG services.  They don't do it
> (and I doubt that JD would stoop to that level), but it illustrates
> the point.

Just to be clear :).. There is no reason to doubt. I would never do
such as thing and I would fire my marketing department (if I had one)
should they ever do such a thing.

Joshua D. Drake


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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:40 -0500
Chander Ganesan <> wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> > I seriously doubt that postgresql training growth is being stymied
> > by one obscure link among dozens on a website front page.
> >   
> I think it's stymied by 30+ events in 5+ cities listed on the
> training page by one or more companies that has plans to run maybe 1
> of those courses, if any.  Check out the training event list... 

Of the first 14 training events, 3 are from unknowns (including
certfirst).

Are we making more out of this than we should be?

However I do see a flood of entries later from Certfirst. Not to be an
ass, but this problem goes away for the forseeable future if we just
ban Certfirst from posting training events. There is no way they are
running all those classes.

/me puts FG hat on.

Perhaps as 50.00 donation should be required for each training listing.

Joshua D. Drake

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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20071104093921.1764ce36@scratch" type="cite"><pre wrap="">-----BEGIN PGP
SIGNEDMESSAGE-----
 
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:40 -0500
Chander Ganesan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a>
wrote:
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Joshua D. Drake wrote:   </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">I
seriouslydoubt that postgresql training growth is being stymied
 
by one obscure link among dozens on a website front page.      </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">I think it's stymied by
30+events in 5+ cities listed on the
 
training page by one or more companies that has plans to run maybe 1
of those courses, if any.  Check out the training event list...    </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Of the first 14 training events, 3 are from unknowns (including
certfirst).

Are we making more out of this than we should be?

However I do see a flood of entries later from Certfirst. Not to be an
ass, but this problem goes away for the forseeable future if we just
ban Certfirst from posting training events. There is no way they are
running all those classes. </pre></blockquote><blockquote cite="mid:20071104093921.1764ce36@scratch" type="cite"><pre
wrap="">
/me puts FG hat on.

Perhaps as 50.00 donation should be required for each training listing. </pre></blockquote> Me, puts of community
supporterhat....we donate either way ;-)  However, I think that $50 isn't much of a deterrent.  I think if you want it
tobe a deterrent to event spam, put that number a bit higher.   That was my idea with the "first X are free for 1
calendaryear, the rest are $1k apiece" or something like that.<br /><br /> Chander<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:20071104093921.1764ce36@scratch"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
Joshua D. Drake

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messagecan get through to the mailing list cleanly </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature"
cols="72">--
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:53:00 -0500
Chander Ganesan <> wrote:

> >
> > Perhaps as 50.00 donation should be required for each training
> > listing. 

> Me, puts of community supporter hat....we donate either way ;-)  
> However, I think that $50 isn't much of a deterrent.  I think if you 

50 * 1 isn't much of a deterrent.
50 * 12 could be. 

Especially since it would be non refundable and the listing time is
short, but it isn't so much the dollar amount (I left it low on
purpose). It is the fact they must donate.

Most unsavory companies I know are also cheap bastards and won't spend
a nickel if they don't have to. I strongly doubt that we are generating
enough leads for certfirst for them to go through the requisition
process for the donations.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake





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     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20071104100021.2d67ad72@scratch" type="cite"><pre wrap="">-----BEGIN PGP
SIGNEDMESSAGE-----
 
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:53:00 -0500
Chander Ganesan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:"><></a>
wrote:
 </pre><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Perhaps as 50.00 donation should be required for
eachtraining
 
listing.      </pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre wrap=""> </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Me, puts of
communitysupporter hat....we donate either way ;-)  
 
However, I think that $50 isn't much of a deterrent.  I think if you    </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
50 * 1 isn't much of a deterrent.
50 * 12 could be.  </pre></blockquote> I disagree.  Consider that if they sell a class for $2200 apiece, 600 is a
pittance...it'sless than the profit of 1 student, and if you consider that listing a class 12 times brings them, say 2
students(probably more, but I'm being ultra-conservative here), it's still worth the cost.<br /><br /> Consider that we
posta limited number of classes and make regular donations that are much larger than $600 (note: we offer air, hotel,
andtraining for that price...so our margins are considerably smaller).<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:20071104100021.2d67ad72@scratch"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
Especially since it would be non refundable and the listing time is
short, but it isn't so much the dollar amount (I left it low on
purpose). It is the fact they must donate.

Most unsavory companies I know are also cheap bastards and won't spend
a nickel if they don't have to. I strongly doubt that we are generating
enough leads for certfirst for them to go through the requisition
process for the donations. </pre></blockquote> I think you'd be surprised...companies do something similar with Novell,
andhave to pay Novell something like $1000/year/location listed (they can then list an unlimited number of classes at
thelocation) but still find it worthwhile, IMHO Novell's training locater is virtually useless, the number of courses
listedis an order of magnitude greater than the number that actually run...  A single lead that turned into an on-site
coursewould more than pay for a good 100+ listings...<br /><br /> Besides, if a company is running that many courses,
thenthey can definitely afford to pony up a bit more change...especially here in the US.  I would propose some kind of
slidingscale based on the country perhaps...we don't want to price Dextra out of a market....or any other company that
doesbusiness in a weaker currency (though the way things are going there might not be that many...).<br /><blockquote
cite="mid:20071104100021.2d67ad72@scratch"type="cite"><pre wrap="">
 
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake





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     === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- </pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> ------- Original Message -------
> From: "Joshua D. Drake" <>
> To: Chander Ganesan <>
> Sent: 04/11/07, 17:39:21
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
> 
> However I do see a flood of entries later from Certfirst. Not to be an
> ass, but this problem goes away for the forseeable future if we just
> ban Certfirst from posting training events. There is no way they are
> running all those classes.

Any talk along those lines should not be held in this public forum.

Regards, Dave


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Kris Jurka
Date:

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, Dave Page wrote:

>> ------- Original Message -------
>> From: "Joshua D. Drake" <>
>> To: Chander Ganesan <>
>> Sent: 04/11/07, 17:39:21
>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
>>
>> However I do see a flood of entries later from Certfirst. Not to be an
>> ass, but this problem goes away for the forseeable future if we just
>> ban Certfirst from posting training events. There is no way they are
>> running all those classes.
>
> Any talk along those lines should not be held in this public forum.
>

I don't see why not.  This whole thread has been full of vague, "some 
companies" are doing bad things.  If there are bad apples out there, let's 
expose them.  While it may not be appropriate to speak for the community 
yet, I don't see why individuals naming names is a bad thing.  It focuses 
the actual discussion back to reality and let's people in the know have 
some useful information when discussing or considering training.

Your suggestion implies that instead of doing this publicly a www team 
cabal should decide this in some back room and not inform anyone of it.

Kris Jurka



Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> ------- Original Message -------
> From: Kris Jurka <>
> To: Dave Page <>
> Sent: 04/11/07, 19:28:54
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
> 
> 
> On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, Dave Page wrote:
> 
> >> ------- Original Message -------
> >> From: "Joshua D. Drake" <>
> >> To: Chander Ganesan <>
> >> Sent: 04/11/07, 17:39:21
> >> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Training events policy ... first test case
> >>
> >> However I do see a flood of entries later from Certfirst. Not to be an
> >> ass, but this problem goes away for the forseeable future if we just
> >> ban Certfirst from posting training events. There is no way they are
> >> running all those classes.
> >
> > Any talk along those lines should not be held in this public forum.
> >
> 
> I don't see why not.  This whole thread has been full of vague, "some 
> companies" are doing bad things.  If there are bad apples out there, let's 
> expose them.  While it may not be appropriate to speak for the community 
> yet, I don't see why individuals naming names is a bad thing.  It focuses 
> the actual discussion back to reality and let's people in the know have 
> some useful information when discussing or considering training.
> 
> Your suggestion implies that instead of doing this publicly a www team 
> cabal should decide this in some back room and not inform anyone of it.
> 

You have some proof they're doing anything inappropriate? Confident a judge would accept it if they sued for damage to
theirreputation and loss of potential business by allegations made in a public forum?
 

Regards, Dave


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Kris Jurka
Date:

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, Dave Page wrote:

> You have some proof they're doing anything inappropriate? Confident a 
> judge would accept it if they sued for damage to their reputation and 
> loss of potential business by allegations made in a public forum?
>

You're right, I hadn't thought about it in that respect.  I don't like it, 
but this is probably an area to tread carefully.

Kris Jurka


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:51:03 -0000
"Dave Page" <> wrote:


> > Your suggestion implies that instead of doing this publicly a www
> > team cabal should decide this in some back room and not inform
> > anyone of it.
> > 
> 
> You have some proof they're doing anything inappropriate? Confident a
> judge would accept it if they sued for damage to their reputation and
> loss of potential business by allegations made in a public forum?
> 

Well let's start at the top. Has *anyone* bothered to contact the party
and just talk to them? See what is going on? A lot of this seems it may
be circumspect.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


> Regards, Dave
> 
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: if posting/reading
> through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command
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> the mailing list cleanly
> 


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Re: [SPAM] Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Chander Ganesan wrote:
> I think perhaps not.  We already have course titles...and vendors
> consistently use the same name for their courses.  We could simply take
> the course names, their counts, and when the most recent of any
> particular group of courses (start date) is.  Then list the three most
> recent (in terms of start date) along with a count as to the number of
> times they are offered...
> 
> Like: Upcoming courses:
> 
> PostgreSQL Administration (14 events)
> PostgreSQL Cool Tricks and Stuff (3 events)
> PostgreSQL for Dummies (1 event)
> plus 4 Other events...
> 
> If you can send me some DDL I can write up a sample query...

Well thats not exactly the same as was originally suggested, and in fact
does little more than to force events to be grouped by what could easily
be minor differences in phrasing:

PostgreSQL Administration for Beginners (3 events)
PostgreSQL Administration 101 (5 events)
Getting started with PostgreSQL (2 events)
Beginning PostgreSQL (4 events).

If we want to do something like that it needs to be done properly by
(for example) pre-defining some set categories to ensure we list things
appropriately.

Regards, Dave.


Re: [SPAM] Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> If we want to do something like that it needs to be done properly by
> (for example) pre-defining some set categories to ensure we list things
> appropriately.
>   
We could fund the change...OTG is willing to foot the bill (assuming we 
get an estimate of cost in advance) , or make a sizable SPI contribution 
(say $1000?) .  I agree this is the best way to go...

I think the community gets the most bang for the buck when they can see 
the breadth of courses offered, rather than sheer numbers.

-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com



Re: [SPAM] Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Chander Ganesan wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> If we want to do something like that it needs to be done properly by
>> (for example) pre-defining some set categories to ensure we list things
>> appropriately.
>>   
> We could fund the change...OTG is willing to foot the bill (assuming 
> we get an estimate of cost in advance) , or make a sizable SPI 
> contribution (say $1000?) .  I agree this is the best way to go...
>
> I think the community gets the most bang for the buck when they can 
> see the breadth of courses offered, rather than sheer numbers.
>
I guess I need to be straight up about this...we're making the SPI 
contribution either way, but it'd be cool to have it done :-)

-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com



Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Dave,

> We could if they scheduled a course in the next six months. The names 
> are taken randomly from whoever has something scheduled.

OK, perfect then.  Can we go with your solution?  I think it's a great 
compromise.

--Josh



Re: [SPAM] Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Chander Ganesan wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> If we want to do something like that it needs to be done properly by
>> (for example) pre-defining some set categories to ensure we list things
>> appropriately.
>>   
> We could fund the change...OTG is willing to foot the bill (assuming we
> get an estimate of cost in advance) , or make a sizable SPI contribution
> (say $1000?) .  I agree this is the best way to go...

That won't fix my own lack of time, but someone might be interested in
taking a look.

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> I think it's useful to keep the companies names there as it will give
> people more of an impression of the range of different training
> providers available. I'll play with the wording and layout later (maybe
> tomorrow) and see if I can address the general concern that it looks too
> 'blocky'.

I've changed the following:

- It lists at most 2 company names, picked at random from those with
outstanding events.

- The font is a touch smaller.

- There is a paragraph break between the summary text and the 'click
here to see the full schedule' text.

http://dave.pgadmin.org/

Look better?

/D


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:04:21 +0000
Dave Page <> wrote:

> - It lists at most 2 company names, picked at random from those with
> outstanding events.
> 
> - The font is a touch smaller.
> 
> - There is a paragraph break between the summary text and the 'click
> here to see the full schedule' text.
> 
> http://dave.pgadmin.org/
> 
> Look better?

Yes. Good job!

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> /D
> 


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Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Dave,

+1!

Can we get it up ASAP?  I'm getting harassed by some of the training 
providers ...

Also, I'll note that at this point almost all of the training providers 
are also financial donors (although at rather different levels).  The 
only exceptions are Big Nerd Ranch (and I'd be willing to give them a 
pass based on early support) and dbExperts (whom we might bounce as 
general parasites, unless they've patched things up with PostgreSQL.Br 
sometime recently).

--Josh Berkus


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Dave Page
Date:
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> +1!
> 
> Can we get it up ASAP?  I'm getting harassed by some of the training 
> providers ...

Done.

Regards, Dave


Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20071104123014.21e2e19d@scratch" type="cite"><blockquote
type="cite"><blockquotetype="cite"><pre wrap="">Your suggestion implies that instead of doing this publicly a www
 
team cabal should decide this in some back room and not inform
anyone of it.
     </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">You have some proof they're doing anything inappropriate? Confident a
judge would accept it if they sued for damage to their reputation and
loss of potential business by allegations made in a public forum?
   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Well let's start at the top. Has *anyone* bothered to contact the party
and just talk to them? See what is going on? A lot of this seems it may
be circumspect. </pre></blockquote> Any progress on this?  How about a policy with regard to event posting?  I think at
thevery least something should be done about events that appear to be overzealous in nature (to say the very least). 
<br/><br /> Berkus original post in this thread was with regard to preventing the "flooding" of training listings. 
Whilewe've addressed a "front page" issue, with regard to jockeying for position...I don't think anything has been done
toaddress the flooding issue.<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>

Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From
Chander Ganesan
Date:
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20071104123014.21e2e19d@scratch" type="cite"><blockquote
type="cite"><blockquotetype="cite"><pre wrap="">Your suggestion implies that instead of doing this publicly a www
 
team cabal should decide this in some back room and not inform
anyone of it.
     </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">You have some proof they're doing anything inappropriate? Confident a
judge would accept it if they sued for damage to their reputation and
loss of potential business by allegations made in a public forum?
   </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Well let's start at the top. Has *anyone* bothered to contact the party
and just talk to them? See what is going on? A lot of this seems it may
be circumspect. </pre></blockquote> Any progress on this?  How about a policy with regard to event posting?  I think at
thevery least something should be done about events that appear to be overzealous in nature (to say the very least). 
<br/><br /> Berkus original post in this thread was with regard to preventing the "flooding" of training listings. 
Whilewe've addressed a "front page" issue, with regard to jockeying for position...I don't think anything has been done
toaddress the flooding issue.<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a>
</pre>