Thread: EnterpriseDB Postgres
Hi, I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever professional-grade distribution". regards, Lukas [1] http://www.enterprisedb.com/news_events/press_releases/07_08_07.do
Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > professional-grade distribution". It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-EnterpriseDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: >> I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open >> source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature >> for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get >> this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another >> PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever >> professional-grade distribution". > > It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an > unusual way. Unusual? > Certainly not the first, Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing available at no cost. > and arguably not professional. Thanks. The Windows build was written by me, using the same technology, and indeed much of our existing code from pgInstaller. Please detail what is unprofessional so I can fix both packages. Regards, Dave
Peter, On Wednesday 8 August 2007 11:36, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > > professional-grade distribution". > > It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an > unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. > > http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-EnterpriseDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html I appreciate the analysis you reported on your blog. The PR firm, Prequent, Inc. made the announcement, Might I suggest that somebody from this company, http://www.prequent.com/about-us.html, get on the advocacy list so as to get up to become sensitized to the salient issues. Robert
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Dave Page wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith:
>
>> Certainly not the first,
>
> Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing
> available at no cost.
Mammoth PostgreSQL was doing this quite some time ago. We found that it
was better to insure support of the surrounding projects so that all the
Pg packages could make it upstream.
That is why we have so many packges in FC (for example now). Go Devrim!
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert Bernier wrote: > Peter, > > On Wednesday 8 August 2007 11:36, Peter Eisentraut wrote: >> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: >>> I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open >>> source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature >>> for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get >>> this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another >>> PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever >>> professional-grade distribution". >> It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an >> unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. >> >> > http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-EnterpriseDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html > > I appreciate the analysis you reported on your blog. > > The PR firm, Prequent, Inc. made the announcement, Might I suggest that > somebody from this company, http://www.prequent.com/about-us.html, get on the > advocacy list so as to get up to become sensitized to the salient issues. Doubtful. ALthough EDB has shown a willingness to be very attentive, their PR firm is obviously clueless when it comes to the salient issues and frankly, it is EDBs responsibility to insure the QA. Regardless, this is just once again marketing speak and we shouldn't really concern ourselves with it as long as they are not dissing the probject. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Robert > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGuensATb/zqfZUUQRAl06AJ0bzrD9LSJdI0aAT72aABCGGPf/TACfbJO/ LyyfQcIGmeDFk5n2Y47qW4k= =XoR3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dave Page wrote: > Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > >> I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > >> source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > >> for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > >> this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > >> PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > >> professional-grade distribution". > > > > It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an > > unusual way. > > Unusual? > > > Certainly not the first, > > Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing > available at no cost. Agreed, bundled is the issue. They didn't mention "bundled" in the press release, but that is kind of a geek word, so I assume that is why "bundled" wasn't mentioned. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
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Dave Page wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith:
>>> I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open
>>> source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature
>>> for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get
>>> this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another
>>> PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever
>>> professional-grade distribution".
>> It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an
>> unusual way.
>
> Unusual?
It is certainly unusual to not use a standard package format
(rpm,deb,pkg). Although I have to double check if PeterE is actually
correct on his linux filesystem standard comment because as I recall non
standard packages are supposed to go into /opt .
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > Hi, > > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > professional-grade distribution". If it is actually the first, I would wonder what all the other distributions are doing and have been doing before EDB even existed ;) alas go Marketing! Joshua D. Drake > > regards, > Lukas > > [1] http://www.enterprisedb.com/news_events/press_releases/07_08_07.do > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend > - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFGuep4ATb/zqfZUUQRAlDvAJ9n98HsOv5qsN/C+su3FQy+h+E2LQCYmdvZ sN90b7ou0FXyd5asPAcCVQ== =jaGQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Dave Page wrote: >> Peter Eisentraut wrote: >>> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: >>> Certainly not the first, >> Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing >> available at no cost. > > Mammoth PostgreSQL was doing this quite some time ago. We found that it > was better to insure support of the surrounding projects so that all the > Pg packages could make it upstream. You were including server, admin tools and drivers in a point 'n' click distro-independent installer? I thought Mammoth was a rebranded server (now community standard). > That is why we have so many packges in FC (for example now). Go Devrim! Absolutely - and we hope that will continue, just as I will be continuing with pgInstaller. The EDB Postgres distros are aimed squarely at new users and those that want a quick and easy install - we don't want them to have to understand all the contrib module options in pgInstaller, or figure out the right combinations of RPMs (not forgetting the libpq-compat one!), and then install and configure a webserver, find some admin tools, work out where the driver websites are etc. We want these users to just download, run and get hooked. Later, when they decide to deploy, thats when they might choose to switch to the RPM distros or pgInstaller, so they can tailor their production systems to their precise needs. Regards, Dave
Peter, Lukas, et al, What I would like to convey to the community is that this release is not targeted at you. You are already Postgres experts. You all already know how this works and have intimate knowledge of all of the contrib modules and add-ons. You are the experts. This release is designed for the developer who has never used PostgreSQL before. He may have heard of it and how it is better than MySQL. But, in the past, he has opted for MySQL because it is a simple download and ready for deployment in his eyes. This release is intended for those folks. For example, take a look at ohloh.net. MySQL is the 5th highest rated project. PostgreSQL is rated much lower. Don't we want that to be reversed? In my entire life, I have always been the underdog and I thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog. EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the world knows we are better than MySQL. We are tying to bring Postgres to the masses so they can really understand it. Anyone who is already familiar with Postgres or any real DBA is going to build it himself from the Postgres community and he will be able to do it quickly. While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. We are trying to help PostgreSQL, and in turn, help ourselves. I would be interested to see how the hits on www.postgresql.org and www.slony.info, etc. increased since this announcement. Derek M. Rodner Director, Product Strategy EnterpriseDB Corporation 732.331.1333 office 484.252.1943 cell www.enterprisedb.com -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Peter Eisentraut Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:36 AM To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org Cc: Lukas Kahwe Smith Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > professional-grade distribution". It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-Enterpris eDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Dave Page wrote: >> Peter Eisentraut wrote: >>> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: >>>> I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open >>>> source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature >>>> for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get >>>> this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another >>>> PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever >>>> professional-grade distribution". >>> It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an >>> unusual way. >> Unusual? > > It is certainly unusual to not use a standard package format > (rpm,deb,pkg). I must admit I kinda hat my Win32 hat on when I read that, and haven't really looked at the Linux installer in detail. Outside of the open source world it is far more normal to have distro-independent installers - and this is specifically what we wanted because we want to get PostgreSQL on as many machines as possible. > Although I have to double check if PeterE is actually > correct on his linux filesystem standard comment because as I recall non > standard packages are supposed to go into /opt . That was my recollection as well. I guess it is a little odd to have the sub components in the PostgreSQL installation root, but we do similarly wierd things in pginstaller to make everything work as it should without having lots of copies of libpq and friends. The important thing to note is that it is entirely self contained, won't futz up your filesystem with fluff, and can be uninstalled. /D
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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> You were including server, admin tools and drivers in a point 'n' click
> distro-independent installer? I thought Mammoth was a rebranded server
> (now community standard).
No it was a complete distribution. Not it was not point in click well
except that you could use *standard* tools ;) such as yum/apt etc.. (we
never did get yum working quite right).
>
>> That is why we have so many packges in FC (for example now). Go Devrim!
>
> Absolutely - and we hope that will continue, just as I will be
> continuing with pgInstaller.
>
> The EDB Postgres distros are aimed squarely at new users and those that
> want a quick and easy install - we don't want them to have to understand
> all the contrib module options in pgInstaller, or figure out the right
> combinations of RPMs (not forgetting the libpq-compat one!),
And breaking package management in the process. I am not trying to start
a war here, but really, if it was done correctly you would have set up
and apt server, a yum server etc... which is much more in line with the
goal I would think.
> We want these users to just download, run and get hooked. Later, when
> they decide to deploy, thats when they might choose to switch to the RPM
> distros or pgInstaller, so they can tailor their production systems to
> their precise needs.
But that won't happen. Instead the users will be contained in the bubble
that is the installer package (any not just EDB) and then when we say,
download the latest RPMs, debs, use apt, use ports.. whatever, they go
what? Please repeat.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Regards, Dave
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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I appreciate Derek's candor in talking about why the press release was structured the way it was. This brings up something I have realized recently. There is no question in my mind that EnterprseDB's many mentions of PostgreSQL in their press releases has greatly helped PostgreSQL to become more visible. Not that this wouldn't have happened on its own, but with EnterpriseDB's help, it has happened faster. The other good news is that we are getting better at PR ourselves, and I think more companies are willing to help us do PR, so we are moving into a phase where we aren't as "off in our own corner" as we were before. Can we get Tom Lane on the cover of ComputerWorld? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derek Rodner wrote: > Peter, Lukas, et al, > > What I would like to convey to the community is that this release is not > targeted at you. You are already Postgres experts. You all already > know how this works and have intimate knowledge of all of the contrib > modules and add-ons. You are the experts. > > This release is designed for the developer who has never used PostgreSQL > before. He may have heard of it and how it is better than MySQL. But, > in the past, he has opted for MySQL because it is a simple download and > ready > for deployment in his eyes. This release is intended for those folks. > For example, take a look at ohloh.net. MySQL is the 5th highest rated > project. PostgreSQL is rated much lower. Don't we want that to be > reversed? In my entire life, I have always been the underdog and I > thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog. > EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to > MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop > being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the > world knows we are better than MySQL. We are tying to bring Postgres to > the masses so they can really understand it. > > Anyone who is already familiar with Postgres or any real DBA is going to > build it himself from the Postgres community and he will be able to do > it quickly. > > While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the > community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to > do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases > yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. > > We are trying to help PostgreSQL, and in turn, help ourselves. I would > be interested to see how the hits on www.postgresql.org and > www.slony.info, etc. increased since this announcement. > > > Derek M. Rodner > Director, Product Strategy > EnterpriseDB Corporation > 732.331.1333 office > 484.252.1943 cell > www.enterprisedb.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Eisentraut > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:36 AM > To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > Cc: Lukas Kahwe Smith > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres > > Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to > get > > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate > another > > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > > professional-grade distribution". > > It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an > unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. > > http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-Enterpris > eDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html > > -- > Peter Eisentraut > http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to > choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not > match > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
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> thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog.
> EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to
> MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop
> being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the
I was with you, until right here. I think you have vastly misestimated
the market. I will concur that PostgreSQL is the underdog to MySQL in
one very specific sense:
The ignorant and the code monkey.
The knowledgable (including many of the fortune 5000) won't touch MySQL
because it is broke, where PostgreSQL isn't.
Now all that being said, there is zero argument that if you can get all
the people running Ubuntu, wanting to run PostgreSQL that our community
will grow. However I wonder, seriously how much of our community would
be willing to deal with that level of newness.
A good portion of our community are DBMS snobs. They have no basis in
reality and are more interested in what is "right" versus what actually
"works".
Is that bad? I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner: > While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the > community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to > do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases > yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth. I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on the postgresql.org web site any longer. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 09:30:28AM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dave Page wrote: > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Dave Page wrote: > >>> Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > You were including server, admin tools and drivers in a point 'n' click > > distro-independent installer? I thought Mammoth was a rebranded server > > (now community standard). > > No it was a complete distribution. Not it was not point in click well > except that you could use *standard* tools ;) such as yum/apt etc.. (we > never did get yum working quite right). I thought it was RPM only? Did it work on slackware for example? > >> That is why we have so many packges in FC (for example now). Go Devrim! > > > > Absolutely - and we hope that will continue, just as I will be > > continuing with pgInstaller. > > > > The EDB Postgres distros are aimed squarely at new users and those that > > want a quick and easy install - we don't want them to have to understand > > all the contrib module options in pgInstaller, or figure out the right > > combinations of RPMs (not forgetting the libpq-compat one!), > > And breaking package management in the process. I am not trying to start Uh, I haven't checked the installer on linux, but I was under the impression that everything went in dedicated directory in /opt. How can that break the package manager? Sure you can't *use* the package manager - just like you acn't use it if you install Oracle or DB2. > a war here, but really, if it was done correctly you would have set up > and apt server, a yum server etc... which is much more in line with the > goal I would think. I assume the whole package is directed at people who do not want to have to reconfigure their yum/apt/whatever just to be able to try something out. > > We want these users to just download, run and get hooked. Later, when > > they decide to deploy, thats when they might choose to switch to the RPM > > distros or pgInstaller, so they can tailor their production systems to > > their precise needs. > > But that won't happen. Instead the users will be contained in the bubble > that is the installer package (any not just EDB) and then when we say, > download the latest RPMs, debs, use apt, use ports.. whatever, they go > what? Please repeat. I'd be very surprised if anybody who would go off and manually download the binaries otherwise will use this distro. And I'd be surprised if users who are used to using yum/apt/whatever will do that, they'll just use the one they're used to. We're talking *new* users here. (Though personally, I'd prefer a distro that doesn't mess around with the packages like the debian one does for example. Not sure if this one fits, but hey, I build from source all the time anyway) //Magnus
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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>> It is certainly unusual to not use a standard package format
>> (rpm,deb,pkg).
>
> I must admit I kinda hat my Win32 hat on when I read that, and haven't
> really looked at the Linux installer in detail.
>
> Outside of the open source world it is far more normal to have
> distro-independent installers - and this is specifically what we wanted
> because we want to get PostgreSQL on as many machines as possible.
Yes but they still install the right way :). (e.g; windows will still be
able to use add/remove programs).
>
> The important thing to note is that it is entirely self contained, won't
> futz up your filesystem with fluff, and can be uninstalled.
Until you get a newbie that links to it the wrong way.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> /D
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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I am not saying we did not tell the truth and we absolutely did. This is the first distribution for Postgres that is packagedin this fashion with a graphical installer and the like. The title of that press release is accurate. Derek M. Rodner Director, Product Strategy EnterpriseDB Corporation 732.331.1333 office 484.252.1943 cell www.enterprisedb.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:37 AM To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.orgI Cc: Derek Rodner Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner: > While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the > community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to > do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases > yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth. I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on the postgresql.org web site any longer. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I appreciate Derek's candor in talking about why the press release was
> structured the way it was.
> The other good news is that we are getting better at PR ourselves, and I
> think more companies are willing to help us do PR, so we are moving into
> a phase where we aren't as "off in our own corner" as we were before.
>
> Can we get Tom Lane on the cover of ComputerWorld? ;-)
To follow this, every time EDB gets press, we get a new customer (and no
I am not being sarcastic). The press helps everyone :)
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Josh,
Actually, that is it exactly. You have summed it up so well when you
said:
" However I wonder, seriously how much of our community would
be willing to deal with that level of newness.
A good portion of our community are DBMS snobs. They have no basis in
reality and are more interested in what is "right" versus what actually
"works".
Is that bad? I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not."
We are trying to make it easy for the newbies and that is what this new
distribution and site are designed for!!!!!
As for the comment about the Fortune 1000? They ALL RUN MySQL
somewhere. We know. We have talked to them. They actually recognize
that it is not enterprise-class, etc. but, it was free and easy to use.
Derek M. Rodner
Director, Product Strategy
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732.331.1333 office
484.252.1943 cell
www.enterprisedb.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:37 AM
To: Derek Rodner
Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog.
> EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to
> MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop
> being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the
I was with you, until right here. I think you have vastly misestimated
the market. I will concur that PostgreSQL is the underdog to MySQL in
one very specific sense:
The ignorant and the code monkey.
The knowledgable (including many of the fortune 5000) won't touch MySQL
because it is broke, where PostgreSQL isn't.
Now all that being said, there is zero argument that if you can get all
the people running Ubuntu, wanting to run PostgreSQL that our community
will grow. However I wonder, seriously how much of our community would
be willing to deal with that level of newness.
A good portion of our community are DBMS snobs. They have no basis in
reality and are more interested in what is "right" versus what actually
"works".
Is that bad? I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Magnus Hagander wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 09:30:28AM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>> Dave Page wrote:
>>>>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>>> You were including server, admin tools and drivers in a point 'n' click
>>> distro-independent installer? I thought Mammoth was a rebranded server
>>> (now community standard).
>> No it was a complete distribution. Not it was not point in click well
>> except that you could use *standard* tools ;) such as yum/apt etc.. (we
>> never did get yum working quite right).
>
> I thought it was RPM only? Did it work on slackware for example?
No we had debs too, and it could work on slackware should anyone have
actually asked for it ;)
>> a war here, but really, if it was done correctly you would have set up
>> and apt server, a yum server etc... which is much more in line with the
>> goal I would think.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 09:37:28AM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog. > > EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to > > MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop > > being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the > > I was with you, until right here. I think you have vastly misestimated > the market. I will concur that PostgreSQL is the underdog to MySQL in > one very specific sense: > > The ignorant and the code monkey. I assume you claim the press is ignorant? Because they're certainly not codemonkeys ;-) Sure, they may be, but we still need them, and a press release is much directed at the press - they won't report it if they don't find it interesting. And *they* haven't looked over mysql *or* postgresql enough to know the difference. //Magnus
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Derek Rodner wrote:
> I am not saying we did not tell the truth and we absolutely did. This is the first distribution for Postgres that is
packagedin this fashion with a graphical installer and the like. The title of that press release is accurate.
Derek you are arguing the marketing truth versus the pedantic truth.
This is not an argument you can win :) The problem is simple your
wording "implies" certain things that are certainly not true.
I agree with you that you didn't explicitly state something that is not
true, but your "implication" is something that the community will always
take exception with.
That is the way it works. I would also note that you are arguing a
marketing argument to a bunch of engineers ;) You will not convince them.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Derek M. Rodner
> Director, Product Strategy
> EnterpriseDB Corporation
> 732.331.1333 office
> 484.252.1943 cell
> www.enterprisedb.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:37 AM
> To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.orgI
> Cc: Derek Rodner
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
>
> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner:
>> While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the
>> community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to
>> do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases
>> yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it.
>
> Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth.
>
> I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on
> the postgresql.org web site any longer.
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:44 schrieb Dave Page: > Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing > available at no cost. That was not the topic of the announcement, however. > Thanks. The Windows build was written by me, using the same technology, > and indeed much of our existing code from pgInstaller. Please detail > what is unprofessional so I can fix both packages. I mentioned my concerns in the blog entry. The installer is actually pretty neat, certainly newbie-friendly, and a lot better than the installer for EnterpriseDB proper. There is no reason given, however, that the label "professional" is in any way warranted. But I am aware that that was not your idea anyway. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
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Derek Rodner wrote:
> Josh,
>
> We are trying to make it easy for the newbies and that is what this new
> distribution and site are designed for!!!!!
>
> As for the comment about the Fortune 1000? They ALL RUN MySQL
> somewhere. We know. We have talked to them. They actually recognize
> that it is not enterprise-class, etc. but, it was free and easy to use.
They don't run it where they would be running Oracle. They do run
PostgreSQL in those spots. Oh and as a sticking point, I said Fortune
5000 ;)
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
> Derek M. Rodner
> Director, Product Strategy
> EnterpriseDB Corporation
> 732.331.1333 office
> 484.252.1943 cell
> www.enterprisedb.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:37 AM
> To: Derek Rodner
> Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
>
>> thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog.
>> EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to
>> MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop
>> being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the
>
> I was with you, until right here. I think you have vastly misestimated
> the market. I will concur that PostgreSQL is the underdog to MySQL in
> one very specific sense:
>
> The ignorant and the code monkey.
>
> The knowledgable (including many of the fortune 5000) won't touch MySQL
> because it is broke, where PostgreSQL isn't.
>
> Now all that being said, there is zero argument that if you can get all
> the people running Ubuntu, wanting to run PostgreSQL that our community
> will grow. However I wonder, seriously how much of our community would
> be willing to deal with that level of newness.
>
> A good portion of our community are DBMS snobs. They have no basis in
> reality and are more interested in what is "right" versus what actually
> "works".
>
> Is that bad? I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Though I would love to continue this discussion because I always learn so much about community interaction in these debates, I am now late for booth duty. I hope you will realize that our intention is not malicious and we benefit from the community just as you benefit from our PR ;).
I am more than happy to continue this discussion later tonight or you can always call my cell.
Derek M. Rodner
Director, Product Strategy
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732-331-1333 office
484-252-1943 cell
www.enterprisedb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
To: Derek Rodner
Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wed Aug 08 12:49:46 2007
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Derek Rodner wrote:
> Josh,
>
> We are trying to make it easy for the newbies and that is what this new
> distribution and site are designed for!!!!!
>
> As for the comment about the Fortune 1000? They ALL RUN MySQL
> somewhere. We know. We have talked to them. They actually recognize
> that it is not enterprise-class, etc. but, it was free and easy to use.
They don't run it where they would be running Oracle. They do run
PostgreSQL in those spots. Oh and as a sticking point, I said Fortune
5000 ;)
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
> Derek M. Rodner
> Director, Product Strategy
> EnterpriseDB Corporation
> 732.331.1333 office
> 484.252.1943 cell
> www.enterprisedb.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:37 AM
> To: Derek Rodner
> Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
>
>> thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog.
>> EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to
>> MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop
>> being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the
>
> I was with you, until right here. I think you have vastly misestimated
> the market. I will concur that PostgreSQL is the underdog to MySQL in
> one very specific sense:
>
> The ignorant and the code monkey.
>
> The knowledgable (including many of the fortune 5000) won't touch MySQL
> because it is broke, where PostgreSQL isn't.
>
> Now all that being said, there is zero argument that if you can get all
> the people running Ubuntu, wanting to run PostgreSQL that our community
> will grow. However I wonder, seriously how much of our community would
> be willing to deal with that level of newness.
>
> A good portion of our community are DBMS snobs. They have no basis in
> reality and are more interested in what is "right" versus what actually
> "works".
>
> Is that bad? I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:07 schrieb Joshua D. Drake: > Although I have to double check if PeterE is actually > correct on his linux filesystem standard comment because as I recall non > standard packages are supposed to go into /opt . I just want to clarify that I did not mean "This package violates the Linux File System Hierarchy Standard" (which it does, but not in an important way), but rather that it lays out the files in a manner that is unusual for what I estimate to be the average Linux administrator. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter, Lukas, et al, What I would like to convey to the community is that this release is not targeted at you. You are already Postgres experts. You all already know how this works and have intimate knowledge of all of the contrib modules and add-ons. You are the experts. This release is designed for the developer who has never used PostgreSQL before. He may have heard of it and how it is better than MySQL. But, in the past, he has opted for MySQL because it is a simple download and ready for deployment in his eyes. This release is intended for those folks. For example, take a look at ohloh.net. MySQL is the 5th highest rated project. PostgreSQL is rated much lower. Don't we want that to be reversed? In my entire life, I have always been the underdog and I thrive on that. My college basketball team is always the underdog. EnterpriseDB is the underdog to Oracle. Postgres is the underdog to MySQL. I am starting to get sick of that and want Postgres to stop being the underdog. We know we are better than MySQL. Most of the world knows we are better than MySQL. We are tying to bring Postgres to the masses so they can really understand it. Anyone who is already familiar with Postgres or any real DBA is going to build it himself from the Postgres community and he will be able to do it quickly. While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. We are trying to help PostgreSQL, and in turn, help ourselves. I would be interested to see how the hits on www.postgresql.org and www.slony.info, etc. increased since this announcement. Derek M. Rodner Director, Product Strategy EnterpriseDB Corporation 732.331.1333 office 484.252.1943 cell www.enterprisedb.com -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Peter Eisentraut Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:36 AM To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org Cc: Lukas Kahwe Smith Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > I read about EnterpriseDB PostGres [1] today. Guess since its open > source it does not contain DynaTune (or what their auto tuning feature > for EnterpriseDB is called). Might be a nice addition to be able to get > this unbundled as a binary .. for this distribution? At any rate another > PostgreSQL distribution, well not another actually its "the first-ever > professional-grade distribution". It's basically PostgreSQL and regular add-on components installed in an unusual way. Certainly not the first, and arguably not professional. http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/9-Enterpris eDB-and-the-Professional-Grade.html -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:39 schrieb Derek Rodner: > I am not saying we did not tell the truth and we absolutely did. This is > the first distribution for Postgres that is packaged in this fashion with a > graphical installer and the like. The title of that press release is > accurate. The title of the press release is "EnterpriseDB Announces First-Ever Professional-Grade PostgreSQL Distribution for Linux". Nothing in the entire press release even mentions a "graphical" installer. In at least one of the meanings "made for profit", "made by a professional", or "exhibiting the technical standards of a profession", this is probably a "professional" distribution, but not the first such. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner:
>> While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the
>> community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to
>> do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases
>> yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it.
>
> Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth.
>
> I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on
> the postgresql.org web site any longer.
How do we make that determination?
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Derek Rodner wrote: > I am not saying we did not tell the truth and we absolutely did. This is the first distribution for Postgres that is packagedin this fashion with a graphical installer and the like. The title of that press release is accurate. Or in other words this is the first distribution labeled "EnterpriseDB Postgres". If you put enough and's nto your explanation it will eventually be first. Though these and's were not in your press release. I do think this language harms PostgreSQL because it makes it sound like previously it was only available in unprofessional packaging, which implies this PostgreSQL thing just for the first time made it out of the world of "oh this is fun to hack on" stage and anyone doing anything with a previous PostgreSQL distro was either toying or on the absolute bleeding edge (or over the edge). I find this release especially disturbing since we just went over this a few weeks ago. But I guess its time to stop trying to fix this behavior, its more a question of just accepting it. While its mighty annoying, I guess it does not offset the good things EDB contributes. So it goes. regards, Lukas
> I do think this language harms PostgreSQL because it makes it sound like > previously it was only available in unprofessional packaging, which implies Erg, I have a dumb question. What does this package provide over and above the standard PG .msi's available for Windows? Is it merely a consistency so that Linux newbies can get an easy Postgres package too? I'm just wondering. I would beleive that those inclined to develop using MySQL would also be inclined to develop under Windows - I didn't find it difficult at all to install PG 8.2.4 or pgAdminIII on my C5 boxes... Cheers, -J
--- "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > Derek you are arguing the marketing truth versus the pedantic > truth. > This is not an argument you can win :) The problem is simple your > wording "implies" certain things that are certainly not true. > Sort of like a company calling itself, "THE PostgreSQL Company"? LewisC ----------------------------------------------------------- Lewis R Cunningham An Expert's Guide to Oracle Technology http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/oracle/guide/ LewisC's Random Thoughts http://lewiscsrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/ EnterpriseDB: The Definitive Reference http://tinyurl.com/39246e ----------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lewis Cunningham wrote: > --- "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > >> Derek you are arguing the marketing truth versus the pedantic >> truth. >> This is not an argument you can win :) The problem is simple your >> wording "implies" certain things that are certainly not true. >> > > Sort of like a company calling itself, "THE PostgreSQL Company"? As EDB said, If CMD does't use it, they will ;). There are plenty other offenses that are much more important to be focusing on. Oh and nice to see you on the list. Perhaps your blogs will be better informed about the community now. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > LewisC > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Lewis R Cunningham > > An Expert's Guide to Oracle Technology > http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/oracle/guide/ > > LewisC's Random Thoughts > http://lewiscsrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/ > > EnterpriseDB: The Definitive Reference > http://tinyurl.com/39246e > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings > - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGugH8ATb/zqfZUUQRAks2AKCE+vghN1EijcOB8m44SW/OcwhrngCbBmjc Fv66mbsm0zM5EABdM932s3g= =80y0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Magnus Hagander wrote: > (Though personally, I'd prefer a distro that doesn't mess around with the > packages like the debian one does for example. Not sure if this one fits, > but hey, I build from source all the time anyway) The packages are entirely standard (with the exception of the odd wrapper script to set the library paths etc - similar to what we do on Windows to set the codepage etc.). The only exception at the moment is the version of pgAdmin in the Windows build. I used an unoffical 1.8 beta 2.5 because I wanted to get the pl/pgsql debugger working out of the box. /D
--- "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > Oh and nice to see you on the list. Perhaps your blogs will be > better > informed about the community now. > Thanks. I'll try. ;-) LewisC ----------------------------------------------------------- Lewis R Cunningham An Expert's Guide to Oracle Technology http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/oracle/guide/ LewisC's Random Thoughts http://lewiscsrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/ EnterpriseDB: The Definitive Reference http://tinyurl.com/39246e ----------------------------------------------------------
On 8/8/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases prior to posting to the site. Not true?
It would seem to make more sense to do so as issues such as this could be worked out privately.
Presoak the laundry before hanging on the line. Otherwise, neighbors may gossip.
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Hash: SHA1
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner:
>> While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the
>> community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to
>> do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases
>> yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it.
>
> Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth.
>
> I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on
> the postgresql.org web site any longer.
How do we make that determination?
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases prior to posting to the site. Not true?
It would seem to make more sense to do so as issues such as this could be worked out privately.
Presoak the laundry before hanging on the line. Otherwise, neighbors may gossip.
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Hash: SHA1
Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> On 8/8/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>> I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be
>> posted on
>>> the postgresql.org web site any longer.
>> How do we make that determination?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Joshua D. Drake
>>
>
> I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases prior to
> posting to the site. Not true?
Well sure but... This particular release is really difficult. Blatant
lies are one thing but seem my comment about marketing truth versus
pedantic truth.
An engineer shouldn't be making a determination if a marketing truth is
valid.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Joshua_Kramer wrote: > >> I do think this language harms PostgreSQL because it makes it sound >> like previously it was only available in unprofessional packaging, >> which implies > > Erg, I have a dumb question. What does this package provide over and > above the standard PG .msi's available for Windows? Is it merely a > consistency so that Linux newbies can get an easy Postgres package too? > > I'm just wondering. I would beleive that those inclined to develop > using MySQL would also be inclined to develop under Windows - I didn't > find it difficult at all to install PG 8.2.4 or pgAdminIII on my C5 > boxes... As a disclaimer, I build both the PG msi's and I produced the one thats available from postgres.enterprisedb.com (though I'm handing the maintenance of that over to another team). The EDB installer has a number of differences. For the people here, they will largely be uninteresting (bar 2 or 3, which will likely be in PG 8.3) - - Is it vastly simplified. For example, a number of the installer steps are gone, including the grid of checkboxes for contrib modules. The feature selection tree has also been reduced to 3 core elements. - It has a few less pieces of bundled software - in particular, no pl/java, and no oledb. - It will (in the next version) include Apache, PHP and phpPgAdmin as an option. - It includes pgAdmin 1.8 beta 2(.5), and the debugger plugin to allow pl/pgsql debugging. - It is Vista compatible. - It includes a simple demo database. - pgAgent is pre-installed (but needs a pgpass.conf file which we don't silently create). There's probably something else I forgot, but that's about it. Regards, Dave.
Mike Ellsworth wrote: > I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases prior > to posting to the site. Not true? We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single company (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and appropriateness. We don't check they are factually accurate, or try to second guess the intent of the companies posting them. And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets all our agreed acceptance criteria. Regards, Dave.
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > No it was a complete distribution. Not it was not point in click well > except that you could use *standard* tools ;) such as yum/apt etc.. (we > never did get yum working quite right). OK > And breaking package management in the process. I am not trying to start > a war here, but really, if it was done correctly you would have set up > and apt server, a yum server etc... which is much more in line with the > goal I would think. It doesn't break it, it sits entirely outside of it, allowing it to run on pretty much any vaguely recent distro. You mention youself that you never really got Yum to work properly - imagine the effort it would take to cover all the major distros using the native package management. Even Devrim's job is complex enough just covering the Redhat distros for the core server, and pgAdmin at different times. This is why the likes of Oracle and IBM use similar non-specific installera. > But that won't happen. Instead the users will be contained in the bubble > that is the installer package (any not just EDB) and then when we say, Better that than they not use PostgreSQL at all. > download the latest RPMs, debs, use apt, use ports.. whatever, they go > what? Please repeat. Our intent is to produce new builds on the community schedule, as well as additional point releases to pick up new versions of Apache, PHP, Slony, pgAdmin etc. I can pretty much guarantee they'll be able to upgrade to a newer version as quickly, if not more quickly than the user of an OS distribution. Regards, Dave
peter_e@gmx.net (Peter Eisentraut) writes: > Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 18:11 schrieb Derek Rodner: >> While the wording of the press release is cause for concern in the >> community because of "first-ever" and "professional grade", we need to >> do this for marketing purposes. If we had said "EnterpriseDB releases >> yet another PostgreSQL distribution" then no one would cover it. > > Well, at least you are admitting that you are not telling the truth. > > I will suggest, however, that knowingly wrong material should not be posted on > the postgresql.org web site any longer. How about we leave it thus... It *is* true to say that this is the first professional grade release of _EnterpriseDB PostgreSQL_. It may be that they'll discover improvements that can be made to it to make it "even more professional," at which point they could rename it _EnterpriseDB PostgreSQL Pro_ and have another press release... -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="linuxfinances.info" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/emacs.html Ubuntu is an ancient African word, meaning "can't configure Debian"
On 8/8/07, Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
Not pointing a finger in any direction, particularly at you Dave. My point was that if it meets the criteria, then there should be no issue -- or thread. If there is a problem with the criteria or vetting process, then focus should be redirected to *that* as an issue.
Praise in public, criticize in private. Particularly when it's 'one of our own'.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases prior
> to posting to the site. Not true?
We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single company (so
noone floods the news pages), relevancy and appropriateness. We don't
check they are factually accurate, or try to second guess the intent of
the companies posting them.
And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets all our
agreed acceptance criteria.
Regards, Dave.
Not pointing a finger in any direction, particularly at you Dave. My point was that if it meets the criteria, then there should be no issue -- or thread. If there is a problem with the criteria or vetting process, then focus should be redirected to *that* as an issue.
Praise in public, criticize in private. Particularly when it's 'one of our own'.
Thanks,
Mike
Dave Page wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> No it was a complete distribution. Not it was not point in click well >> except that you could use *standard* tools ;) such as yum/apt etc.. (we >> never did get yum working quite right). > > OK > >> And breaking package management in the process. I am not trying to start >> a war here, but really, if it was done correctly you would have set up >> and apt server, a yum server etc... which is much more in line with the >> goal I would think. > > It doesn't break it, it sits entirely outside of it, allowing it to run > on pretty much any vaguely recent distro. You mention youself that you > never really got Yum to work properly - imagine the effort it would take > to cover all the major distros using the native package management. Even > Devrim's job is complex enough just covering the Redhat distros for the > core server, and pgAdmin at different times. > > This is why the likes of Oracle and IBM use similar non-specific > installera. actually oracle has packages for their express edition that work quite nice on a number of platforms: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/htdocs/102xelinsoft.html > >> But that won't happen. Instead the users will be contained in the bubble >> that is the installer package (any not just EDB) and then when we say, > > Better that than they not use PostgreSQL at all. > >> download the latest RPMs, debs, use apt, use ports.. whatever, they go >> what? Please repeat. > > Our intent is to produce new builds on the community schedule, as well > as additional point releases to pick up new versions of Apache, PHP, > Slony, pgAdmin etc. I can pretty much guarantee they'll be able to > upgrade to a newer version as quickly, if not more quickly than the user > of an OS distribution. the problem comes if you need the OS or generally apps to interact with the database. Most distributions have a large number of packages and a lot of them depend on say libpq or even say the postgresql client utils. Since the OS has no clue about your "independent" package it will usually install their own copy which could cause even more confusion (and problems) for some users(like ending up with two different versions of psql in the simplest case). This is probably not that much a problem on Windows (which does not have that kind of packaging usually) but I guess it could be on other platforms. Stefan
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Mike Ellsworth wrote: > > I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases > > prior to posting to the site. Not true? > > We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single company > (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and appropriateness. We > don't check they are factually accurate, or try to second guess the > intent of the companies posting them. > > And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets all > our agreed acceptance criteria. Dave, I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: > > Praise in public, criticize in private. This should be the main take away from this thread. > Particularly when it's 'one of our own'. > That too. Cheers, Steve
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
David Fetter wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the
> appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody
> not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces.
Actually this is probably a good idea in general. It isn't a question of
inappropriateness but the appearance of thus by *any* member. We have
quite a few prominent members employed by several prominent postgresql
companies.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Cheers,
> David.
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Atkins wrote: > > On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: >> >> Praise in public, criticize in private. > > This should be the main take away from this thread. > >> Particularly when it's 'one of our own'. There is nothing wrong with public constructive criticism. The problem is when people turn it into a war. I have zero problem with public criticism of CMD that is kind of the FOSS way. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >> > > That too. > > Cheers, > Steve > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq > - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGuhUwATb/zqfZUUQRAhE9AJ4mY5IYnWRHI8/e0OAGW95tgYbM3wCfbBYP XIP1tR2qt64ymap1cKys+TA= =Bdcn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > David Fetter wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: >>> Mike Ellsworth wrote: > >> Dave, > >> I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the >> appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody >> not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. > > Actually this is probably a good idea in general. It isn't a question of > inappropriateness but the appearance of thus by *any* member. We have > quite a few prominent members employed by several prominent postgresql > companies. I don't necessarily disagree, and in fact did refuse to post it and approve it myself (hence why it came from Peter Yarrow). However, as I know I subjected it to the same rules as we apply to all articles, I didn't see a problem approving it myself. I've had to deal with these conflicts of interest for years on the website - for example, dealing with news relating to other admin tools, especially those from one particular company who like to try to flood us with postings from time to time. If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that. Regards, Dave.
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Steve Atkins wrote: >> On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: >>> Praise in public, criticize in private. >> This should be the main take away from this thread. > >>> Particularly when it's 'one of our own'. > > There is nothing wrong with public constructive criticism. The problem > is when people turn it into a war. I have zero problem with public > criticism of CMD that is kind of the FOSS way. Agreed 100%. If I've done something that others consider to be unacceptable for example, I want to know about it, and I'd like people to know I know about it. I will then do what I can to put it right. I think the difficulty perhaps comes when disagreements become more intense - JD and I for example often clash antlers, but certainly from my side there is no ill-will intended (in fact I'm looking forward to the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to better what we're collectively doing. Anyhoo, this is getting off-topic... /D
On Aug 8, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Steve Atkins wrote: >> >> On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: >>> >>> Praise in public, criticize in private. >> >> This should be the main take away from this thread. >> >>> Particularly when it's 'one of our own'. > > There is nothing wrong with public constructive criticism. The problem > is when people turn it into a war. I have zero problem with public > criticism of CMD that is kind of the FOSS way. True. But it would be good if everyone involved remembers that this is a public forum, and keeps the criticism as professional, constructive (and ideally, not misquotable out of context) as much as possible. Convincing DBAs at an Oracle-only company that PG is a solid, professionally maintained and supported application is tricky enough without an impression of public infighting amongst ourselves. Cheers, Steve
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 08:18:38PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > David Fetter wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > >>> Mike Ellsworth wrote: > > > >> Dave, > > > >> I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the > >> appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody > >> not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. > > > > Actually this is probably a good idea in general. It isn't a question of > > inappropriateness but the appearance of thus by *any* member. We have > > quite a few prominent members employed by several prominent postgresql > > companies. > > I don't necessarily disagree, and in fact did refuse to post it and > approve it myself (hence why it came from Peter Yarrow). > > However, as I know I subjected it to the same rules as we apply to all > articles, I didn't see a problem approving it myself. I've had to deal > with these conflicts of interest for years on the website - for example, > dealing with news relating to other admin tools, especially those from > one particular company who like to try to flood us with postings from > time to time. > > If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies > items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that. Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :) Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Dave Page wrote: > This is why the likes of Oracle and IBM use similar non-specific > installera. And the fact that PostgreSQL does not require such nonsense is a major selling point. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Steve Atkins wrote:
>>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> Agreed 100%. If I've done something that others consider to be
> unacceptable for example, I want to know about it, and I'd like people
> to know I know about it. I will then do what I can to put it right.
>
> I think the difficulty perhaps comes when disagreements become more
> intense - JD and I for example often clash antlers,
Are you saying I have antlers buddy! :)
> but certainly from
> my side there is no ill-will intended (in fact I'm looking forward to
None whatsoever, just two of the most intelligent, good looking
PostgreSQL guys occasionally vying for a win over the other ;)
> the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to
> better what we're collectively doing.
Agree 100%, I would be happy to let you buy me several beers.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Anyhoo, this is getting off-topic...
>
> /D
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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When do I get free beer?
After all, aren't I the one who provides the most fodder for debate? lol
Derek M. Rodner
Director, Product Strategy
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732-331-1333 office
484-252-1943 cell
www.enterprisedb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org <pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org>
To: Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>
Cc: Steve Atkins <steve@blighty.com>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wed Aug 08 15:41:23 2007
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Steve Atkins wrote:
>>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> Agreed 100%. If I've done something that others consider to be
> unacceptable for example, I want to know about it, and I'd like people
> to know I know about it. I will then do what I can to put it right.
>
> I think the difficulty perhaps comes when disagreements become more
> intense - JD and I for example often clash antlers,
Are you saying I have antlers buddy! :)
> but certainly from
> my side there is no ill-will intended (in fact I'm looking forward to
None whatsoever, just two of the most intelligent, good looking
PostgreSQL guys occasionally vying for a win over the other ;)
> the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to
> better what we're collectively doing.
Agree 100%, I would be happy to let you buy me several beers.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Anyhoo, this is getting off-topic...
>
> /D
>
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
match
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Are you saying I have antlers buddy! :) I thought everyone knew already? >> but certainly from >> my side there is no ill-will intended (in fact I'm looking forward to > > None whatsoever, just two of the most intelligent, good looking > PostgreSQL guys occasionally vying for a win over the other ;) Well, I was trying to be modest, but seeing as you put it that way :-) >> the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to >> better what we're collectively doing. > > Agree 100%, I would be happy to let you buy me several beers. I said 'a' beer. I don't like you that much :-) /D
Derek Rodner wrote: > When do I get free beer? You're on a jolly with our Chief Architect and you're asking *us* where the free beer is? Is he ill or something? Or did you leave already? /D
Denis is still here, but who knows where. I have been sick for the last 2 days so I have a LOT of catching up to do tonight!
Derek M. Rodner
Director, Product Strategy
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732-331-1333 office
484-252-1943 cell
www.enterprisedb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>
To: Derek Rodner
Cc: jd@commandprompt.com <jd@commandprompt.com>; steve@blighty.com <steve@blighty.com>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wed Aug 08 15:52:44 2007
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] EnterpriseDB Postgres
Derek Rodner wrote:
> When do I get free beer?
You're on a jolly with our Chief Architect and you're asking *us* where
the free beer is? Is he ill or something? Or did you leave already?
/D
David Fetter wrote: > Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making > this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :) > > Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can > avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the > PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce > things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable > about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though. Just write it in German and send it to Andreas. He'll translate it back into English if he thinks it's good. //Magnus
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 Chris Browne wrote: > It *is* true to say that this is the first professional grade release > of _EnterpriseDB PostgreSQL_. Actually, it's just "EnterpriseDB Postgres", according to the site. Guess they figured one mixed cap name was enough. That makes me happy, as a strong supporter of us officially dropping the "SQL" part of PostgreSQL and just using the name everyone ends up using anyway. :) - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200708081638 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFGuinpvJuQZxSWSsgRA2khAJ9m0PYwQDpCZAh4Hrk1RGwvjSfuDQCeLgvl 2WKwM7tmfUREeb5ZUsp5C3o= =bTIh -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > ..as a strong supporter of us officially dropping the > "SQL" part of PostgreSQL and just using the name everyone ends > up using anyway. :) Well that's probably controversal and not an issue to be discussed piggy-backed on an EDB thread. Regards, Andreas
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:28:22PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Joshua_Kramer wrote: > > > >> I do think this language harms PostgreSQL because it makes it sound > >> like previously it was only available in unprofessional packaging, > >> which implies > > > > Erg, I have a dumb question. What does this package provide over and > > above the standard PG .msi's available for Windows? Is it merely a > > consistency so that Linux newbies can get an easy Postgres package too? > > > > I'm just wondering. I would beleive that those inclined to develop > > using MySQL would also be inclined to develop under Windows - I didn't > > find it difficult at all to install PG 8.2.4 or pgAdminIII on my C5 > > boxes... > > As a disclaimer, I build both the PG msi's and I produced the one thats > available from postgres.enterprisedb.com (though I'm handing the > maintenance of that over to another team). > > The EDB installer has a number of differences. For the people here, they > will largely be uninteresting (bar 2 or 3, which will likely be in PG > 8.3) - Given the target of newbies, something we should probably add to that list is turning autovacuum on. Leaving that off is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a lot of folks, far worse than our minimalist configuration. -- Decibel!, aka Jim Nasby decibel@decibel.org EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell)
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Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > Chris Browne wrote: > >> It *is* true to say that this is the first professional grade release >> of _EnterpriseDB PostgreSQL_. > > Actually, it's just "EnterpriseDB Postgres", according to the site. > > Guess they figured one mixed cap name was enough. That makes > me happy, as a strong supporter of us officially dropping the > "SQL" part of PostgreSQL and just using the name everyone ends > up using anyway. :) Yeah, that was a conscious decision. I've lost count of the number of speelings I've seen of Postgrays SQL. /D
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 08:50:29PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Are you saying I have antlers buddy! :) > > I thought everyone knew already? > > >> but certainly from > >> my side there is no ill-will intended (in fact I'm looking forward to > > > > None whatsoever, just two of the most intelligent, good looking > > PostgreSQL guys occasionally vying for a win over the other ;) > > Well, I was trying to be modest, but seeing as you put it that way :-) > > >> the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to > >> better what we're collectively doing. > > > > Agree 100%, I would be happy to let you buy me several beers. > > I said 'a' beer. I don't like you that much :-) Be careful Dave... next you know he'll be selling you free $5 beers. -- Decibel!, aka Jim Nasby decibel@decibel.org EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell)
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Decibel! wrote: > On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:28:22PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Given the target of newbies, something we should probably add to that > list is turning autovacuum on. Leaving that off is going to leave a bad > taste in the mouth of a lot of folks, far worse than our minimalist > configuration. We've always done that on the Windows community builds (well, since 8.1). /D
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Decibel! wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 08:50:29PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>> the day we finally meet and I can buy him a beer), just the desire to
>>>> better what we're collectively doing.
>>> Agree 100%, I would be happy to let you buy me several beers.
>> I said 'a' beer. I don't like you that much :-)
>
> Be careful Dave... next you know he'll be selling you free $5 beers.
Hey we raised over 1k thank you very much :)
Joshua D. Drake
- --
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Decibel! wrote: > Given the target of newbies, something we should probably add to that > list is turning autovacuum on. Leaving that off is going to leave a > bad taste in the mouth of a lot of folks, far worse than our > minimalist configuration. Or alternatively, the bad taste may stem from someone unilaterally overriding configuration decisions consciously made by the developers. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 11:38:18PM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Decibel! wrote: > > Given the target of newbies, something we should probably add to that > > list is turning autovacuum on. Leaving that off is going to leave a > > bad taste in the mouth of a lot of folks, far worse than our > > minimalist configuration. > > Or alternatively, the bad taste may stem from someone unilaterally > overriding configuration decisions consciously made by the developers. Well, you mentioned lack of vacuuming twice in your blog, so you're the last person I expected to object to this. I don't see how leaving autovacuum turned off can be a good idea in a package that's specifically meant to be easy. "Congratulations, you've just installed Postgres! Oh, wait... one more thing... go edit this file by hand otherwise your performance will suck as soon as you start throwing any real data at the database." -- Decibel!, aka Jim Nasby decibel@decibel.org EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell)
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David Fetter wrote: > On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > Mike Ellsworth wrote: > > > I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases > > > prior to posting to the site. Not true? > > > > We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single company > > (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and appropriateness. We > > don't check they are factually accurate, or try to second guess the > > intent of the companies posting them. > > > > And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets all > > our agreed acceptance criteria. > > Dave, > > I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the > appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody > not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. We don't have the manpower to insulate ourselves like this. I apply EnterpriseDB patches, and have no intention of stopping. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
David Fetter wrote: > > If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies > > items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that. > > Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making > this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :) > > Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can > avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the > PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce > things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable > about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though. Disagree. We are not making policy over one person's suggestion here, and taken to an extreem, this will slow us down, with zero cases of conficts actually causing problems. I would prefer people act responsibly rather than add more rules. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> David Fetter wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>>> Mike Ellsworth wrote:
>>>> I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press Releases
>>>> prior to posting to the site. Not true?
>>> We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single company
>>> (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and appropriateness. We
>>> don't check they are factually accurate, or try to second guess the
>>> intent of the companies posting them.
>>>
>>> And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets all
>>> our agreed acceptance criteria.
>> Dave,
>>
>> I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the
>> appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask somebody
>> not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces.
>
> We don't have the manpower to insulate ourselves like this. I apply
> EnterpriseDB patches, and have no intention of stopping.
We aren't really talking about patches here. We are talking about news
items and we have *plenty* of manpower in that instance.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> David Fetter wrote:
>>> If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies
>>> items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that.
>> Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making
>> this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :)
>>
>> Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can
>> avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the
>> PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce
>> things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable
>> about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though.
>
> Disagree. We are not making policy over one person's suggestion here,
> and taken to an extreem, this will slow us down, with zero cases of
> conficts actually causing problems. I would prefer people act
> responsibly rather than add more rules.
Easy Bruce, this is something that the community is discussing and
appears to agree with. Although I do think the PostgreSQL Weekly News on
is kind of offtopic.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
- --
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
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On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 06:08:39PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > David Fetter wrote: > >>> If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies > >>> items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that. > >> Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making > >> this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :) > >> > >> Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can > >> avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the > >> PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce > >> things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable > >> about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though. > > > > Disagree. We are not making policy over one person's suggestion here, > > and taken to an extreem, this will slow us down, with zero cases of > > conficts actually causing problems. I would prefer people act > > responsibly rather than add more rules. > > Easy Bruce, this is something that the community is discussing and > appears to agree with. Although I do think the PostgreSQL Weekly News on > is kind of offtopic. Which is why I called for another thread. :) Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 08:37:30PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > David Fetter wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:32:15PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > > Mike Ellsworth wrote: > > > > I was under the impression that www scrutinizes all Press > > > > Releases prior to posting to the site. Not true? > > > > > > We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single > > > company (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and > > > appropriateness. We don't check they are factually accurate, or > > > try to second guess the intent of the companies posting them. > > > > > > And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets > > > all our agreed acceptance criteria. > > > > Dave, > > > > I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the > > appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask > > somebody not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. > > We don't have the manpower to insulate ourselves like this. I apply > EnterpriseDB patches, and have no intention of stopping. The subject wasn't patches, so I'm calling straw man on this. Face it, Momjian, you don't hold the sway you used to, nor will you ever again. Back off. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On 8/8/07, David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > The subject wasn't patches, so I'm calling straw man on this. Face > it, Momjian, you don't hold the sway you used to, nor will you ever > again. Back off. David, There's no need to get personal here. Just chill. -- Jonah H. Harris, Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324 EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301 33 Wood Ave S, 3rd Floor | jharris@enterprisedb.com Iselin, New Jersey 08830 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/
All, > > If people want to make 'no self approval of your or your companies > > items' a new moderation rule, I have no problem with that. > > Good idea. We have enough people and enough diversity that making > this explicit in the moderation rules is reasonable. :) I don't have a problem with that. Actually I usually try to get someone from -WWW to approve anything I post, including stuff for the Project. Otherwise I never know what stupid cut-and-paste errors I might miss. I'll point out though that our policy on News/Events/Training postings has always been one of permissiveness. For example, there has been an ongoing one-upsmanship in the Training postings for the last 6 months and WWW has refused to get involved in constraining it. If we started deciding that we'd block certain kinds of news posts (like those with too much hyperbole) then that would be a major change of direction for our website approval policy. It would also make it highly politicized. > Speaking of which, I'd love to figure out a system whereby I can > avoid (the appearance of) similar conflicts of interest in the > PostgreSQL Weekly News, as I have been in a position to announce > things I've done, are doing, etc., and have never felt comfortable > about it. I guess that's a subject for another thread, though. I haven't seen a problem except that I'm not keen on your reporting on flamewars, even resolved ones. But that's an editorial decision that you and I will continue to disagree on. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
David, Bruce, > it, Momjian, you don't hold the sway you used to, nor will you ever > again. Back off. Hey, both of you calm down. This is a fairly reasonable process discussion and there is no call for either of you to get emotional about it. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 23:47 schrieb Decibel!: > Well, you mentioned lack of vacuuming twice in your blog, so you're the > last person I expected to object to this. > > I don't see how leaving autovacuum turned off can be a good idea in a > package that's specifically meant to be easy. It's more of a general observation. Several downstream distributors turned autovacuum on by default some time ago, their decision process having been something like, "Automatic vacuum? Cool!". There are certainly cases where enabling autovacuum by default is reasonable. But remember the lengthy discussion we had before the 8.2 release about whether to turn it on, and the extensive development necessary for 8.3 to make enabling it by default safe. There was clearly more thought being put into it than some of the distributors did. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 12:11, Dave Page wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Dave Page wrote: > >> Peter Eisentraut wrote: > >>> Am Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 17:14 schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith: > >>> Certainly not the first, > >> > >> Barring pgInstaller, it's the first bundled distribution I recall seeing > >> available at no cost. > > > > Mammoth PostgreSQL was doing this quite some time ago. We found that it > > was better to insure support of the surrounding projects so that all the > > Pg packages could make it upstream. > > You were including server, admin tools and drivers in a point 'n' click > distro-independent installer? I thought Mammoth was a rebranded server > (now community standard). > FWIW, BitRock has been doing a verson of this for a little while (single download, graphical install, admin tool, works across linux distros) http://bitrock.com/download_webstacks_download.html -- Robert Treat Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
David Fetter wrote: > > > > We do. We check them for frequency of posting from a single > > > > company (so noone floods the news pages), relevancy and > > > > appropriateness. We don't check they are factually accurate, or > > > > try to second guess the intent of the companies posting them. > > > > > > > > And yes, I did approve that one - despite my employer it meets > > > > all our agreed acceptance criteria. > > > > > > Dave, > > > > > > I know you mean well, but in this case, you created, at best, the > > > appearance of a conflict of interest. Next time, please ask > > > somebody not employed at EnterpriseDB to review such pieces. > > > > We don't have the manpower to insulate ourselves like this. I apply > > EnterpriseDB patches, and have no intention of stopping. > > The subject wasn't patches, so I'm calling straw man on this. Face > it, Momjian, you don't hold the sway you used to, nor will you ever > again. Back off. I am unsure of David's purpose in posting this. I assume he was trying to assert his will and somehow scare me off. However, the effect was to renew doubts about his ability to function effectively in the community. FYI, David is a key member in assisting our PostgreSQL user base. Not only does he do the PostgreSQL Weekly News (which is a huge job), but he tirelessly works on our IRC channel and attends conferences to talk about PostgreSQL. (He is in Argentina now.) These are key activities in promoting PostgreSQL adoption. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bruce Momjian wrote: > I am unsure of David's purpose in posting this. I assume he was trying > to assert his will and somehow scare me off. However, the effect was to > renew doubts about his ability to function effectively in the community. > > FYI, David is a key member in assisting our PostgreSQL user base. Not > only does he do the PostgreSQL Weekly News (which is a huge job), but he > tirelessly works on our IRC channel and attends conferences to talk > about PostgreSQL. (He is in Argentina now.) These are key activities > in promoting PostgreSQL adoption. Both of you, to your corners and count to 10. This is ridiculous. 1. This is offtopic, I already moved the topic to pgsql-www. http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2007-08/msg00098.php 2. This is offtopic, I already moved the topic to pgsql-www. http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2007-08/msg00098.php 3. Both of you take your personal beefs elsewhere. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGu0UkATb/zqfZUUQRApOOAJkBVxl3bbXZe8H6b/fF7bSSCvgo4wCeIkC0 lIrpEgcGbQ6WKGX0Rhh4tVk= =O+pK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----