Thread: Majordomo drops multi-line Subject:
I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to a mail from Bruce as well. Is this fixable? -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Alvaro Herrera wrote: > I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a > Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has > done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda > but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to > a mail from Bruce as well. Can you have multi-line subject lines? I didn't think that was possible. -- Bruce Momjian bruce@momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a
> > Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has
> > done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda
> > but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to
> > a mail from Bruce as well.
>
> Can you have multi-line subject lines? I didn't think that was
> possible.
Yes. This is the header of a mail you sent to -patches:
From: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
To: Zdenek Kotala <Zdenek.Kotala@Sun.COM>
CC: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in
Note the Subject is truncated w.r.t. the mail you were responding, which
had this:
From: Zdenek Kotala <Zdenek.Kotala@Sun.COM>
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Cc: pgsql-patches@postgresql.org, bruce@momjian.us
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:44:19 +0200
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in postgresql.conf to -
See your sent-mail folder, you'll see that the message you actually sent
had something like this:
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in
postgresql.conf to -
What happened with the second line? What I concluded has happened, from
observations on the other list, Majordomo removed it.
--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
On 23.08.2006, at 16:31 Uhr, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>> Can you have multi-line subject lines? I didn't think that was
>> possible.
>
> Yes. This is the header of a mail you sent to -patches:
Aha? Subject is an "unstructured header field" and according to RFC
2822 [1]:
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----
2.2.1. Unstructured Header Field Bodies
Some field bodies in this standard are defined simply as
"unstructured" (which is specified below as any US-ASCII characters,
except for CR and LF) with no further restrictions. These are
referred to as unstructured field bodies. Semantically,
unstructured
field bodies are simply to be treated as a single line of characters
with no further processing (except for header "folding" and
"unfolding" as described in section 2.2.3).
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----
So they don't contain line feeds or carriage returns and so the can't
be multi-line. If a mail client sends multi line subjects it does
something against the RFC and I assume with that, it does something
wrong.
This is the theory in RFC 2822 as far as I understand it.
cug
[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822
It most likely conforms strictly to <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc822#page-21">Rfc 822</a> which is the standard, and mostly canonical, and allows for CR and LF but not the two together (CRLF), if I'm reading it correctly: text = <any CHAR, including bare ; => atoms, specials, CR & bare LF, but NOT ; comments and including CRLF> ; quoted-strings are ; NOT recognized. optional-field = / "Message-ID" ":" msg-id / "Resent-Message-ID" ":" msg-id / "In-Reply-To" ":" *(phrase / msg-id) / "References" ":" *(phrase / msg-id) / "Keywords" ":" #phrase / "Subject" ":" *text / "Comments" ":" *text / "Encrypted" ":" 1#2word / extension-field ; To be defined / user-defined-field ; May be pre-empted Alvaro Herrera wrote: > Bruce Momjian wrote: > >> Alvaro Herrera wrote: >> >>> I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a >>> Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has >>> done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda >>> but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to >>> a mail from Bruce as well. >>> >> Can you have multi-line subject lines? I didn't think that was >> possible. >> > > Yes. This is the header of a mail you sent to -patches: > > From: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> > To: Zdenek Kotala <Zdenek.Kotala@Sun.COM> > CC: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org > Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in > > > Note the Subject is truncated w.r.t. the mail you were responding, which > had this: > > From: Zdenek Kotala <Zdenek.Kotala@Sun.COM> > To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> > Cc: pgsql-patches@postgresql.org, bruce@momjian.us > Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:44:19 +0200 > Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in postgresql.conf to - > > See your sent-mail folder, you'll see that the message you actually sent > had something like this: > > Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in > postgresql.conf to - > > > What happened with the second line? What I concluded has happened, from > observations on the other list, Majordomo removed it. > > -- erik jones <erik@myemma.com> software development emma(r)
Guido Neitzer wrote:
> ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----
> 2.2.1. Unstructured Header Field Bodies
>
>
> Some field bodies in this standard are defined simply as
> "unstructured" (which is specified below as any US-ASCII characters,
> except for CR and LF) with no further restrictions. These are
> referred to as unstructured field bodies. Semantically,
> unstructured
> field bodies are simply to be treated as a single line of characters
> with no further processing (except for header "folding" and
> "unfolding" as described in section 2.2.3).
>
> ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----
So see what "folding" means. Section 2.2.3 says
2.2.3. Long Header Fields
Each header field is logically a single line of characters comprising
the field name, the colon, and the field body. For convenience
however, and to deal with the 998/78 character limitations per line,
the field body portion of a header field can be split into a multiple
line representation; this is called "folding". The general rule is
that wherever this standard allows for folding white space (not
simply WSP characters), a CRLF may be inserted before any WSP. For
example, the header field:
Subject: This is a test
can be represented as:
Subject: This
is a test
--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
On 23.08.2006, at 16:51 Uhr, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > Guido Neitzer wrote: > >> ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- >> 2.2.1. Unstructured Header Field Bodies >> >> >> Some field bodies in this standard are defined simply as >> "unstructured" (which is specified below as any US-ASCII >> characters, >> except for CR and LF) with no further restrictions. These are >> referred to as unstructured field bodies. Semantically, >> unstructured >> field bodies are simply to be treated as a single line of >> characters >> with no further processing (except for header "folding" and >> "unfolding" as described in section 2.2.3). >> >> ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- > > So see what "folding" means. Section 2.2.3 says > > 2.2.3. Long Header Fields > > > Each header field is logically a single line of characters > comprising > the field name, the colon, and the field body. For convenience > however, and to deal with the 998/78 character limitations per > line, > the field body portion of a header field can be split into a > multiple > line representation; this is called "folding". The general rule is > that wherever this standard allows for folding white space (not > simply WSP characters), a CRLF may be inserted before any WSP. For > example, the header field: Interesting. Haven't seen that. Thanks for the hint. Not really intuitive, but okay. cug
Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>>> I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a
>>> Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has
>>> done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda
>>> but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to
>>> a mail from Bruce as well.
>> Can you have multi-line subject lines? I didn't think that was
>> possible.
>
> Yes. This is the header of a mail you sent to -patches:
To further this:
RCPT TO: jd@lists.commandprompt.oc
m550 5.7.1 jd@lists.commandprompt.oc... Relaying denied. Proper
authentication required.
RCPT TO: jd@lists.commandprompt.com
250 2.1.5 jd@lists.commandprompt.com... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
Subject: asdf
asdfasdf
hello
.
250 2.0.0 k7NFEHfh005371 Message accepted for delivery
RCPT TO: jd@lists.commandprompt.com
503 5.0.0 Need MAIL before RCPT
MAIL FROM: linuxpoet@gmail.com
250 2.1.0 linuxpoet@gmail.com... Sender ok
RCPT TO: jd@lists.commandprompt.com
250 2.1.5 jd@lists.commandprompt.com... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
Subject: asdfasdfasdf
asdfasdfasdfaasdffasdfasdasdf
this is a test
.
250 2.0.0 k7NFEHfi005371 Message accepted for delivery
Both of these came through with proper multi line subjects.
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Guido Neitzer wrote: > So they don't contain line feeds or carriage returns and so the can't > be multi-line. If a mail client sends multi line subjects it does > something against the RFC and I assume with that, it does something wrong. > > This is the theory in RFC 2822 as far as I understand it. I think he referred to a long subject line being "folded" as per section 2.2.3 of rfc2822. -- bkw
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes:
> I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a
> Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has
> done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda
> but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to
> a mail from Bruce as well.
> Is this fixable?
Even though multi-line Subject: is theoretically legal according to the
RFCs, it's certainly an awful idea; how many MUAs do you know that
provide more than one line to display the subject in a normal view?
So I don't really care if Majordomo truncates the subject --- I wouldn't
see the rest of it anyway.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes: > > I noticed that Majordomo drops the second and subsequent lines of a > > Subject: line in message before dispatching for some reason. It has > > done this for some time; I noticed it some time ago in pgsql-es-ayuda > > but I thought it may be a bug in my MUA. But I just saw it happened to > > a mail from Bruce as well. > > > Is this fixable? > > Even though multi-line Subject: is theoretically legal according to the > RFCs, it's certainly an awful idea; how many MUAs do you know that > provide more than one line to display the subject in a normal view? > So I don't really care if Majordomo truncates the subject --- I wouldn't > see the rest of it anyway. Huh, but the MUA auto-unfolds it for view. Both mutt and Elm do that fine -- the folding and unfolding. I would think exmh is pretty thoroughly broken if it didn't. We can do an experiment and send you a Cc'ed message through the list and a copy to you directly. The direct copy should have the full subject, and the list one would be truncated. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> Even though multi-line Subject: is theoretically legal according to the
>> RFCs, it's certainly an awful idea; how many MUAs do you know that
>> provide more than one line to display the subject in a normal view?
>> So I don't really care if Majordomo truncates the subject --- I wouldn't
>> see the rest of it anyway.
> Huh, but the MUA auto-unfolds it for view. Both mutt and Elm do that
> fine -- the folding and unfolding. I would think exmh is pretty
> thoroughly broken if it didn't.
Well, if I actually choose to read the message, sure I'll see all of it.
The point here is that you've got one line (and only about 50 characters
at that) to get my attention, and so I'm perfectly fine with list
software that, erm, strongly encourages brevity of Subject: headers.
If you're composing a paragraph it ought to be in the message body,
not the subject.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes: > > Tom Lane wrote: > >> Even though multi-line Subject: is theoretically legal according to the > >> RFCs, it's certainly an awful idea; how many MUAs do you know that > >> provide more than one line to display the subject in a normal view? > >> So I don't really care if Majordomo truncates the subject --- I wouldn't > >> see the rest of it anyway. > > > Huh, but the MUA auto-unfolds it for view. Both mutt and Elm do that > > fine -- the folding and unfolding. I would think exmh is pretty > > thoroughly broken if it didn't. > > Well, if I actually choose to read the message, sure I'll see all of it. > The point here is that you've got one line (and only about 50 characters > at that) to get my attention, and so I'm perfectly fine with list > software that, erm, strongly encourages brevity of Subject: headers. > If you're composing a paragraph it ought to be in the message body, > not the subject. Have a look at how mutt displays the message index: 69 L Aug 23 Zdenek Kotala ( 37) Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in postgresql.conf to - 70 L Aug 23 Bruce Momjian ( 52) ->Re: [PATCHES] Allow commenting of variables in Note that the rest of the second subject line could still use the same space as the line above it. I mostly don't use 80-line terminals to read mail anymore because there's so much stuff that's too wide. Subjects have already less space available because of those [FOOBAR] stuff that's prepended to it. (I noticed a couple of days ago that you strip those. Maybe I should do that too.) In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one complaining about it. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
> > Even though multi-line Subject: is theoretically legal according to the > RFCs, it's certainly an awful idea; how many MUAs do you know that > provide more than one line to display the subject in a normal view? > So I don't really care if Majordomo truncates the subject --- I wouldn't > see the rest of it anyway. Well my MUA actually reads the new line and makes it a single line. Joshua D. Drake > > regards, tom lane > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue > to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects > this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one > complaining about it. Based on this thread, and the fact that you are the first to have ever noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one complaining about it :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > >> In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue >> to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects >> this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one >> complaining about it. > > Based on this thread, and the fact that you are the first to have ever > noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one complaining > about it :) Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman. Joshua D. Drake > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org > Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > > > >>In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue > >>to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects > >>this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one > >>complaining about it. > > > >Based on this thread, and the fact that you are the first to have ever > >noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one complaining > >about it :) > > Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman. Please don't, unless Majordomo is really broken and unfixed (i.e. there isn't a newer version with the bug fixed). What version are we running? May I assume we are running a rather obsolete version? Like the version we are running of CVS, which doesn't support the usage of LocalKeyword=PostgreSQL=CVSHeader KeywordExpand=iPostgreSQL in CVSROOT/config which replaces the old, unsupported, broken hack of putting tag=PostgreSQL=CVSHeader in CVSROOT/options. I've been wanting to propose an upgrade to that as well. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>>>
>>>> In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue
>>>> to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects
>>>> this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one
>>>> complaining about it.
>>> Based on this thread, and the fact that you are the first to have ever
>>> noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one complaining
>>> about it :)
>> Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman.
>
> Please don't, unless Majordomo is really broken and unfixed (i.e. there
> isn't a newer version with the bug fixed). What version are we running?
From what I can tell Majordomo isn't even supported any longer.
Secondly we get some better management (not great but better) interfaces
with mailman.
Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is
battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding
on with a dying breaths to old software is silly.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Alvaro Herrera wrote: > >Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >>Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >>>On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > >>> > >>>>In any case I don't see any reason to let the broken software continue > >>>>to be broken. Surely there must be an updated version which corrects > >>>>this bug? A patch at least? I mean, I can't be the only one > >>>>complaining about it. > >>>Based on this thread, and the fact that you are the first to have ever > >>>noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one complaining > >>>about it :) > >>Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman. > > > >Please don't, unless Majordomo is really broken and unfixed (i.e. there > >isn't a newer version with the bug fixed). What version are we running? > > From what I can tell Majordomo isn't even supported any longer. > Secondly we get some better management (not great but better) interfaces > with mailman. > > Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is > battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding > on with a dying breaths to old software is silly. Can Mailman do moderation over email? If it can do that, then I'm all for it. If it can't, which was the case last time I checked (more than a year ago or two, I admit), then I repeat my plea that it's not done. Moderation over www is a PITA. My MUA allows me to accept/reject a message in a single keystroke. If I had to fetch a webpage any time I wanted to approve a post I'd abandon the job pretty quickly. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
> >>> ever noticed/commented about it ... ya, you are the only one > >>> complaining about it :) > >> Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman. > > > > Please don't, unless Majordomo is really broken and unfixed (i.e. > > there isn't a newer version with the bug fixed). What version > are we running? > > From what I can tell Majordomo isn't even supported any longer. > Secondly we get some better management (not great but better) > interfaces with mailman. Seriously, I think that's the first time anybody said anything good about the mailman interfaces.... Just the stuff I have to do for the pgFoundry lists (of which I have only *two*) is just so much pain. (who came up with such a brilliant thing as different-password-for-everything-you-do? It's just god-awful if you have more than one list..) If we're changing anyway, I think we should seriously consider Sympa, IMHO. For one thing, it can store it's Config and userlists and stuf in a PostgreSQL database, so if you're not happy with the interface, it's fairly trivial to whack something else up. Or if you need to do batch changes or something... I'm not advocating a change though - I'll stand neutral on that - but *if* we're going to change... //Magnus
>>
>> Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is
>> battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding
>> on with a dying breaths to old software is silly.
>
> Can Mailman do moderation over email? If it can do that, then I'm all
> for it. If it can't, which was the case last time I checked (more than
> a year ago or two, I admit), then I repeat my plea that it's not done.
> Moderation over www is a PITA. My MUA allows me to accept/reject a
O.k. this is a little silly. This constant old school, we have to be
able to administer things from email is counter-productive. Email is
dead, long live www! ;)
Seriously though, from a list administrator point of view, someone who
has to manage many, many lists moderation over email is the PITA. It is
much nicer to just view a nice long list in a web brower, select a
couple that I want to keep -- and submit. The rest get thrown away.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
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http://www.commandprompt.com/
>
> Seriously, I think that's the first time anybody said anything good
> about the mailman interfaces.... Just the stuff I have to do for the
> pgFoundry lists (of which I have only *two*) is just so much pain. (who
> came up with such a brilliant thing as
> different-password-for-everything-you-do? It's just god-awful if you
> have more than one list..)
You don't have to have a different password for everything you do. Could
you elaborate as to what you are talking about?
>
>
> If we're changing anyway, I think we should seriously consider Sympa,
Well no one said we were changing, I just made the suggestion. I have
never seen or even of heard of Sympa for that matter. Unless it has a
very large, active, supported community -- I am not interested in the least.
Joshua D. Drake
--
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http://www.commandprompt.com/
> > Seriously, I think that's the first time anybody said anything > good > > about the mailman interfaces.... Just the stuff I have to do for > the > > pgFoundry lists (of which I have only *two*) is just so much > pain. > > (who came up with such a brilliant thing as > > different-password-for-everything-you-do? It's just god-awful if > you > > have more than one list..) > > You don't have to have a different password for everything you do. > Could you elaborate as to what you are talking about? For example, to manage my pgFoundry lists, I have to log in with one password to manage pginstaller-devel and a different one to manage pginstaller-cvs (which has been discontinued, but keeps getting spams that notify me - at least it used to). Sure, I can set them to the same, but... Same goes as a user of mailman lists. What I want is to log in to "lists.postgresql.org", and get an interface that wil show me everything about the lists i'm subscribed to (capability to change my flags etc) and everything about the ones I'm admin for (which I'm not for any on pgsql.org, but in principle - admin requests, moderation requests etc). It's possible this can be done in other versions of mailman than the ones I've been exposed to, in which case the point isn't valid given those would be the versions we'd talk about. > > If we're changing anyway, I think we should seriously consider > Sympa, > > Well no one said we were changing, I just made the suggestion. Oh, I know that. I just wanted to get the suggestion into a possible discussion about it. > I have never seen or even of heard of Sympa for that matter. Unless > it has a very large, active, supported community -- I am not > interested in the least. It has a pretty large community supporting it in France, IIRC. Certainly not as big as mailman, though. //Magnus
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> > >>Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is > >>battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding > >>on with a dying breaths to old software is silly. > > > >Can Mailman do moderation over email? If it can do that, then I'm all > >for it. If it can't, which was the case last time I checked (more than > >a year ago or two, I admit), then I repeat my plea that it's not done. > >Moderation over www is a PITA. My MUA allows me to accept/reject a > > O.k. this is a little silly. This constant old school, we have to be > able to administer things from email is counter-productive. Email is > dead, long live www! ;) > > Seriously though, from a list administrator point of view, someone who > has to manage many, many lists moderation over email is the PITA. It is > much nicer to just view a nice long list in a web brower, select a > couple that I want to keep -- and submit. The rest get thrown away. For each moderation request I get, I press a single key. Either "A" or "R" (yes, I wrote a script for this and set up a mutt macro. Does you MUA allow you to bind keys to macros?). And I get to see the message to check if it's actual spam or not. These condensed lists of yours are a mess because you can't readily tell without looking at the content, thus leading to opening new windows or tabs. Plus, I get the moderation requests on the regular inbox, so they get handled right away and discarded (the single key macro I wrote takes care of deleting the mail as well). I don't see how the web stuff can be any simpler. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
>
> Same goes as a user of mailman lists.
>
>
> What I want is to log in to "lists.postgresql.org", and get an interface
> that wil show me everything about the lists i'm subscribed to
> (capability to change my flags etc) and everything about the ones I'm
> admin for (which I'm not for any on pgsql.org, but in principle - admin
> requests, moderation requests etc).
O.k. from list to list yes you are correct. Hmmm... I wonder how they
handle the token... (decides to take a look after the class he is
teaching today).
Joshua D. Drake
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>
> I don't see how the web stuff can be any simpler.
I view a single page, select the items I wish to keep, hit a single
button, I am done and I don't have to clutter my inbox.
This discussion is all about how people work. Most people *DO NOT* work
from email the way Alvaro and and some of the other hackers do.
I do not use email for todo lists, sending commands to servers,
moderating lists. I use it for email, which is to say I communicate with
people with it. I receive attachments of contracts I need to sign and
requests for work.
When I open my email it is bad enough I have some spam to deal with, I
don't want a bunch of emails that have nothing to do with my actual
email cluttering my inbox. Administrative commands, for me -- belong in
an interface that is separate from my business medium.
Joshua D. Drake
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-----Original Message----- From: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>; "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>; "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>;"General" <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> Sent: 07/09/06 14:27 Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Majordomo drops multi-line Subject: > O.k. this is a little silly. This constant old school, we have to be > able to administer things from email is counter-productive. Email is dead, long live www! ;) As someone who has been building webapps since the (very) early 90's I'm far from a www-luddite, but it'll be a cold dayin hell when I willingly moderate any of the pg lists using mailman's interface (or mj's for that matter) - and yes, Ido moderate a few of them. Regards, Dave
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As someone who does a lot of moderation using both mailman and majordomo every single day, I can assure everyone that both of them suck in their own way. Majordomo is nice in that I can view a whole bunch of lists at once, and accept/reject en masse, across many lists. Plus, it has a gazillion options, some of which are useful and that mailman does not have yet. Majordomo stinks because it only shows the "from" on the main moderation page, and not the subject line, which would *really* speed up the moderating. Mailman is nice in that it shows the subject, but also gives a whole irritating box per message, which makes quick moderating a pain. I'd rather have a single line list. > Plus, I get the moderation requests on the regular inbox, so they get > handled right away and discarded (the single key macro I wrote takes > care of deleting the mail as well). > > I don't see how the web stuff can be any simpler. You've got to be kidding: that sounds horrible. I don't want an email for every message that comes in. I want to handle them all at once, on /my time frame/. In addition, many of the lists I moderate are admin'ed by more than one person, so sending the message to all moderators is extremely inefficient. As much as I dislike majordomo, I'm not seeing a strong argument here for replacing it. As far as I can tell, there are no problems with our using it: the "unsubscribe-in-subject" thing was added to pgsql-general and seems to be working just fine. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@endpoint.com greg@turnstep.com End Point Corporation 610-983-9073 PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200609071154 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFFAEFfvJuQZxSWSsgRAhYuAKDZ3qqAdeRvPm6rIxTW/Ccs4KN35QCg41e1 q1/f0B5O/j8brzQVt3qm4Xk= =XZ+l -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > As much as I dislike majordomo, I'm not seeing a strong argument here > for replacing it. As far as I can tell, there are no problems with our > using it: the "unsubscribe-in-subject" thing was added to pgsql-general > and seems to be working just fine. Actually, am going to add it so that you can do it as part of the To address too ... just found out what I was missing for that one ... that will clean up the linking from the web for subscribe/unsubscribe, I think ... BTW, for those that want the multi-line behaviour, there is a mj2 mailing list ... post there with the RFC references you have, and see if they will "fix it" ... the guys are pretty responsive if there is an argument for it ... the list is at mj2-dev@lists.mj2.org ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
This is a Reply to the message "Re: Majordomo drops multi-line Subject:" and I produce a Subject lomger then 80 characters and since the OP is using mutt like me, whats going on here?
From
Michelle Konzack
Date:
Hello,
the OP is using mutt like me and I have never seen mutt,
breaking the Subject in multiple lines. If I send mails,
with such subjects, the are always bandworms...
Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
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##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
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50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
Am 2006-09-07 06:15:15, schrieb Joshua D. Drake:
> >>Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman.
> From what I can tell Majordomo isn't even supported any longer.
> Secondly we get some better management (not great but better) interfaces
> with mailman.
>
> Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is
> battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding
> on with a dying breaths to old software is silly.
When do you want to migrate?
I have this question, because mailman can set to "nomail" if someone
is subscribe (I am subscribed with two E-Mails an get ALL messages
twice) but I need it to write from different locations or preventing
to get messages bounced, because a worm hit my linux4michelle Mailbox
(currently I get over 14.000 Spams and Viruses per day) which has
only 500 MBytes...
Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
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On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Michelle Konzack wrote: > Am 2006-09-07 06:15:15, schrieb Joshua D. Drake: > >>>> Honestly, it may be time we start looking at mailman. > >> From what I can tell Majordomo isn't even supported any longer. >> Secondly we get some better management (not great but better) interfaces >> with mailman. And I missed this one from Joshua ... but, we aren't running Majordomo from GreatCircle, we are running Majordomo2 (http://www.mj2.org) which is very much being actively support ... >> Mailman is a supported, large, active, FOSS community project that is >> battle tested in the current field much more so then Majordomo. Holding >> on with a dying breaths to old software is silly. > > When do you want to migrate? > > I have this question, because mailman can set to "nomail" if someone > is subscribe (I am subscribed with two E-Mails an get ALL messages > twice) but I need it to write from different locations or preventing > to get messages bounced, because a worm hit my linux4michelle Mailbox > (currently I get over 14.000 Spams and Viruses per day) which has > only 500 MBytes... Majordomo2 support a nomail option as well ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
Re: This is a Reply to the message "Re: Majordomo drops multi-line Subject:" and I produce a Subject lomger then 80 characters and since the OP is using mutt like me, whats going on here?
From
Alvaro Herrera
Date:
Michelle Konzack wrote: > Hello, > > the OP is using mutt like me and I have never seen mutt, > breaking the Subject in multiple lines. If I send mails, > with such subjects, the are always bandworms... I don't know what the conditions are, but mutt frequently produces multiline Subjects on my messages, even when I'm answering mail whose Subject was not multiline. Maybe the usage of non-ASCII chars has something to do with it. If you search the archives of pgsql-es-ayuda you can find plenty of examples of this, where threads have changing subjects -- some of the mails from me have the truncated subject on the archives, while other mails on the same thread have the non-truncated subject. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
OK, this is a Test für a Subject containing one non ASCII character ans some more like éáóèàòôç [WAS: Re: [GENERAL] This is i©+h¶¦zË the OP is using mutt like me, whats going on here?]
From
Michelle Konzack
Date:
Hi Alvaro,
This is a second test with some non US-ACII characters...
Since I am in France, I have never seen broken Subject lines.
Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
Am 2006-09-09 12:30:25, schrieb Alvaro Herrera:
> I don't know what the conditions are, but mutt frequently produces
> multiline Subjects on my messages, even when I'm answering mail whose
> Subject was not multiline. Maybe the usage of non-ASCII chars has
> something to do with it. If you search the archives of pgsql-es-ayuda
> you can find plenty of examples of this, where threads have changing
> subjects -- some of the mails from me have the truncated subject on the
> archives, while other mails on the same thread have the non-truncated
> subject.
>
------------------------- END OF REPLIED MESSAGE -------------------------
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Hello Marc, Am 2006-09-09 12:50:36, schrieb Marc G. Fournier: > And I missed this one from Joshua ... but, we aren't running Majordomo > from GreatCircle, we are running Majordomo2 (http://www.mj2.org) which is > very much being actively support ... I have seen... > Majordomo2 support a nomail option as well ... I know, since some Mailinglist I am on are migrated to Majordomo2. Afaik does Mailman not support the "nomail" Option. Same for ezmlm, sympha, and smartlist. Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ##################### Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
Michelle Konzack wrote: > Hello Marc, > > Am 2006-09-09 12:50:36, schrieb Marc G. Fournier: > >> And I missed this one from Joshua ... but, we aren't running Majordomo >> from GreatCircle, we are running Majordomo2 (http://www.mj2.org) which is >> very much being actively support ... > > I have seen... > >> Majordomo2 support a nomail option as well ... > > I know, since some Mailinglist I am on are migrated to Majordomo2. > Afaik does Mailman not support the "nomail" Option. > > Same for ezmlm, sympha, and smartlist. fwiw: "sympa" - and that one has a nomail option for ages ... Stefan
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 03:09:17PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: > Hi Alvaro, > > This is a second test with some non US-ACII characters... FWIW, this appeared fine in Mutt, the raw message has the subject split across multiple lines, but Mutt handles that just fine. My guess is someone's MUA truncates the newline when hitting "reply". Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate.
Attachment
Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 03:09:17PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: > > Hi Alvaro, > > > > This is a second test with some non US-ACII characters... > > FWIW, this appeared fine in Mutt, the raw message has the subject split > across multiple lines, but Mutt handles that just fine. > > My guess is someone's MUA truncates the newline when hitting "reply". Like Martijn's MUA for example? Your message has a truncated subject, at least the copy I got from the list (I was not in Cc: so I didn't get the original. Nevermind that I installed the formail trick for supressing duplicates so I would have gotten only a single copy anyway ...) But see the archives: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2006-09/msg00561.php You'll see that your message's subject has been truncated. But see Michelle's: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2006-09/msg00528.php it's not truncated. Why the difference? Not sure. I downloaded the archives' mbox, and I see there that Michelle's subject appears as: Subject: OK, this is a Test =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr_a_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Subject_containing_one_non_ASCII_character_ans_some_more_?= =?iso-8859-1?B?bGlrZSDp4fPo4PL05yBbV0FTOiBSZTogW0dFTkVSQUxdIFRoaXMgaXMg?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?a_Reply_to_the_message_=22Re=3A_Majordomo_drops_multi-line?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Subject=3A=22_and_I_produce_a_Subject_lomger_then_80_char?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?acters_and_sinc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e?= the OP is using mutt like me, whats going on here?] Your message, on the other hand, has this on the archives: Subject: Re: OK, this is =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= Why didn't it truncate Michelle's but did truncate yours? FYI, I've seen this on my messages (mutt), yours (also mutt), and Bruce's (elm). I find it strange that Michelle's mutt didn't do the same. Maybe it's not Majordomo at all, but I haven't seen it anywhere else (for example on lists I am that are managed with Mailman, on spanish, carrying lots of non-ASCII chars in subjects, I don't think I've ever seen a truncated subject). -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
It is definitvly not the Mailinglist software which cut the Subject lines.
My unencoded Subject looks:
Subject: OK, this is a Test =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr_a_?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Subject_containing_one_non_ASCII_character_ans_some_more_?=
=?iso-8859-1?B?bGlrZSDp4fPo4PL05yBbV0FTOiBSZTogW0dFTkVSQUxdIFRoaXMgaXMg?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?a_Reply_to_the_message_=22Re=3A_Majordomo_drops_multi-line?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?_Subject=3A=22_and_I_produce_a_Subject_lomger_then_80_char?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?acters_and_sinc?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?e?= the OP is using mutt like me, whats going on here?]
And even with mixed encoding type (base64 and quoted-printable)
it is correct.
Greetings
Michelle
Am 2006-09-13 15:09:17, schrieb Michelle Konzack:
> Hi Alvaro,
>
> This is a second test with some non US-ACII characters...
>
> Since I am in France, I have never seen broken Subject lines.
>
> Greetings
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
> ------------------------- END OF REPLIED MESSAGE -------------------------
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Am 2006-09-15 08:41:00, schrieb Alvaro Herrera:
> Why didn't it truncate Michelle's but did truncate yours?
From the Mutt-Manual:
``All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less.'' -me, circa 1995
Thats why I love it (even it has no GUI) and it is very strong
RFC-Compliant plus resolving Bugs from MTA's and other MUA's.
> FYI, I've seen this on my messages (mutt), yours (also mutt), and
> Bruce's (elm). I find it strange that Michelle's mutt didn't do the
> same.
Do you run a "real" mutt or mutt-ng?
I have:
mutt:
Installed: 1.5.9-2
Candidate: 1.5.9-2
Version Table:
*** 1.5.9-2 0
200 http://sarge.debian.tamay-dogan.net sarge/main Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
the one on my Toshiba T1950CT (486dx50, 12 MB of memory)
is older and from Debian/Woody and works too. Same for
the lates version from Debian/Unstable
> Maybe it's not Majordomo at all, but I haven't seen it anywhere else
> (for example on lists I am that are managed with Mailman, on spanish,
> carrying lots of non-ASCII chars in subjects, I don't think I've ever
> seen a truncated subject).
:-)
This is, why I was wondering about it.
I use mutt since 1999/03 and never seen a truncated Subject: header.
Greetings and nice Weekend
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
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On Sep 13, 2006, at 9:05 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: >> Majordomo2 support a nomail option as well ... > > I know, since some Mailinglist I am on are migrated to Majordomo2. > Afaik does Mailman not support the "nomail" Option. BTW, majordomo may not support 'nomail', but it does allow you to add additional email addresses to a primary email, which I find to be far easier for dealing with multiple accounts. -- Jim Nasby jimn@enterprisedb.com EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> I know, since some Mailinglist I am on are migrated to Majordomo2. >> Afaik does Mailman not support the "nomail" Option. > > BTW, majordomo may not support 'nomail', but it does allow you to add > additional email addresses to a primary email, which I find to be far > easier for dealing with multiple accounts. Just for the record, both Mailman and Majordomo support the "nomail" option. More specifically, all the Postgres lists do, and a number of subscribers are using this feature. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com End Point Corporation PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200609221021 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFFE/GNvJuQZxSWSsgRAkoSAKDfXCQ5NIkRkFUIttFbb1j6/Mc7xACeJFtg i4TDwh/B4F062fz2Gl20yMM= =tF9p -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----