Thread: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Derek Shaw
Date:
I am working with a window-manufacturing firm (the real thing!).  One of
the reasons we are about to choose one of the vertical-market
applications is that they claim ODBC compliance, and "Using other ODBC
compliant database engines should not present a problem but may require
some additional testing..."  This is in stark contrast to all the other
vendors who require MSSQL on the back end (or an AS400), and the usual
windoziness about why you'd want to do anything else.

When I asked about using PostgreSQL this is the reply I received:
----
I discussed PostureSQL with Paul and his technical director sent me the
following comment:
/   PostgreSQL// is open source and so far they have not agreed on a blob
   field properly we use blob fields for the item bitmap, old conservatory
   data and meta files for graphics. An ODBC driver is available and
   describes how to fudge a blob field but it says that it does not clean
   them up properly when updating. I suggest moving to MySQL which
   is also open source ??///
They estimate about one day additional time to make necessary changes
and to test for MySQL.  Let me know what you think.
----
These folks develop using MSAccess and MSSQL.

Can anyone shed any light on how serious this problem is, and whether it
is ever likely to be resolved so that I could use PostgreSQL?

TIA!

PS - the vertical market software is Caliburn v8 at
http://www.caliburn-software.com/

--
Derek Shaw
BIS Business Information Systems Inc.
Victoria, BC.
voice: 250-885-2021   fax: 250-386-4060
PGP Public Key ID: 0xD3783198


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Paul Thomas
Date:
On 05/02/2004 19:33 Derek Shaw wrote:
> I am working with a window-manufacturing firm (the real thing!).  One of
> the reasons we are about to choose one of the vertical-market
> applications is that they claim ODBC compliance, and "Using other ODBC
> compliant database engines should not present a problem but may require
> some additional testing..."  This is in stark contrast to all the other
> vendors who require MSSQL on the back end (or an AS400), and the usual
> windoziness about why you'd want to do anything else.
>
> When I asked about using PostgreSQL this is the reply I received:
> ----
> I discussed PostureSQL with Paul and his technical director sent me the
> following comment:
> /   PostgreSQL// is open source and so far they have not agreed on a blob
>   field properly we use blob fields for the item bitmap, old conservatory
>   data and meta files for graphics. An ODBC driver is available and
>   describes how to fudge a blob field but it says that it does not clean
>   them up properly when updating. I suggest moving to MySQL which
>   is also open source ??///
> They estimate about one day additional time to make necessary changes
> and to test for MySQL.  Let me know what you think.
> ----
> These folks develop using MSAccess and MSSQL. Can anyone shed any light
> on how serious this problem is, and whether it is ever likely to be
> resolved so that I could use PostgreSQL?

I wonder if they've got confused about the 2 ways in PostgreSQL can store
blobs. There is the older Large Object method and there is the newer bytea
data type. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
http://www.varlena.com/varlena/GeneralBits/44.php could help them
understand which to use. Or they could ask on this list.

Perhaps you should also ask them them to comment on
http://sql-info.de/mysql. Do they believe a database which can silently
corrupt your data is a product worth recommending to a paying client?

--
Paul Thomas
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Thomas Micro Systems Limited | Software Solutions for the Smaller
Business |
| Computer Consultants         |
http://www.thomas-micro-systems-ltd.co.uk   |
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jan Wieck
Date:
Paul Thomas wrote:

> On 05/02/2004 19:33 Derek Shaw wrote:
>> I am working with a window-manufacturing firm (the real thing!).  One of
>> the reasons we are about to choose one of the vertical-market
>> applications is that they claim ODBC compliance, and "Using other ODBC
>> compliant database engines should not present a problem but may require
>> some additional testing..."  This is in stark contrast to all the other
>> vendors who require MSSQL on the back end (or an AS400), and the usual
>> windoziness about why you'd want to do anything else.
>>
>> When I asked about using PostgreSQL this is the reply I received:
>> ----
>> I discussed PostureSQL with Paul and his technical director sent me the
>> following comment:
>> /   PostgreSQL// is open source and so far they have not agreed on a blob
>>   field properly we use blob fields for the item bitmap, old conservatory
>>   data and meta files for graphics. An ODBC driver is available and
>>   describes how to fudge a blob field but it says that it does not clean
>>   them up properly when updating. I suggest moving to MySQL which
>>   is also open source ??///
>> They estimate about one day additional time to make necessary changes
>> and to test for MySQL.  Let me know what you think.
>> ----
>> These folks develop using MSAccess and MSSQL. Can anyone shed any light
>> on how serious this problem is, and whether it is ever likely to be
>> resolved so that I could use PostgreSQL?
>
> I wonder if they've got confused about the 2 ways in PostgreSQL can store
> blobs. There is the older Large Object method and there is the newer bytea
> data type. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
> http://www.varlena.com/varlena/GeneralBits/44.php could help them
> understand which to use. Or they could ask on this list.
>
> Perhaps you should also ask them them to comment on
> http://sql-info.de/mysql. Do they believe a database which can silently
> corrupt your data is a product worth recommending to a paying client?
>

In addition to this, "also open source" is correct, but there are
significan differences in the quality of "open" vs. "open". MySQL is not
free, so if the application developed is closed source, it requires the
end user to purchase a commercial MySQL license per installation.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Paul Thomas
Date:
On 09/02/2004 15:25 Jan Wieck wrote:
> Paul Thomas wrote:
> [snip]
> In addition to this, "also open source" is correct, but there are
> significan differences in the quality of "open" vs. "open". MySQL is not
> free, so if the application developed is closed source, it requires the
> end user to purchase a commercial MySQL license per installation.

Another good point in our favour IMHO.

--
Paul Thomas
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Thomas Micro Systems Limited | Software Solutions for the Smaller
Business |
| Computer Consultants         |
http://www.thomas-micro-systems-ltd.co.uk   |
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Claudio Cicali
Date:
Paul Thomas wrote:
> On 09/02/2004 15:25 Jan Wieck wrote:
>
>> Paul Thomas wrote:
>> [snip]
>> In addition to this, "also open source" is correct, but there are
>> significan differences in the quality of "open" vs. "open". MySQL is
>> not free, so if the application developed is closed source, it
>> requires the end user to purchase a commercial MySQL license per
>> installation.
>
> Another good point in our favour IMHO.
>

This is *WRONG*.

MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.

Please refer to this page for further details.
http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html

--
Claudio Cicali
c.cicali@mclink.it
http://www.flexer.it
GPG Key Fingerprint = 2E12 64D5 E5F5 2883 0472 4CFF 3682 E786 555D 25CE

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jean-Michel POURE
Date:
> This is *WRONG*.
> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
> Please refer to this page for further details.
> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html

Are you serious?

By free, we also mean that a product is developed by a community of people,
not a company raising funds. MySQL AB is mainly backed-up by investors. When
all this money is burnt-away, this will be the end of it.

Free software is a cultural and shared development organisation, tightly
linked to the motivation of a individuals.

In a way, MySQL is NOT ***free***. It will be free the day when you see normal
people taking decisions and committing new features to CVS. There is no
freedom without equal access to information and decision makers.

Visit: http://www.mysql.com/company/index.html
"MySQL staff develop new releases every..."

Equal access will (probably) never happen, because MySQL AB would not be able
to release "double-licences" without the agreement of all authors.

Do not hesitate to contact us back if normal people from the normal world ever
commit code in MySQL CVS. This would be a clear sign that MySQL AB is on the
good trend and will probably go faster than a 3 year release cycle.

By choosing PostgreSQL, people are investing in a community work that will
never dissapear and will probably superseed all existing databases within 10
years.

This is as simple as life. Unless PostgreSQL hackers and manpower is wiped-out
by a nuclear winter or any natural catastrophy, there is no possibility to
stop PostgreSQL rise (joke, I am not really serious here).

Best regards,
Jean-Michel



Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Claudio Cicali
Date:
Jean-Michel POURE wrote:

>>This is *WRONG*.
>>MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
>>Please refer to this page for further details.
>>http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
>
> Are you serious?
>

Yes, I am.

> By free, we also mean that a product is developed by a community of people,
> not a company raising funds. MySQL AB is mainly backed-up by investors. When
> all this money is burnt-away, this will be the end of it.

You can't say what YOU mean with "free". In this context "free" is what is
licensed under GPL or GPL-compatible licenses.

MySQL, as a *product*, it's not free as you argue. Ok. But MySQL as simple
"software", is free. You can get the whole source and begin "forking" as you
like. This is enough for me, and for anyone pondering "licensing" problems
while choosing a dbms for her company.

> Free software is a cultural and shared development organisation, tightly
> linked to the motivation of a individuals.

I could not agree more.

> In a way, MySQL is NOT ***free***. It will be free the day when you see normal
> people taking decisions and committing new features to CVS. There is no
> freedom without equal access to information and decision makers.

Yes, in A WAY. Not the way that (imho) we were discussing here.

> Visit: http://www.mysql.com/company/index.html
> "MySQL staff develop new releases every..."
>
> Equal access will (probably) never happen, because MySQL AB would not be able
> to release "double-licences" without the agreement of all authors.

Wonder what is missing to Postgresql ? (hint: strong commercial support. No flame, please ! :))

> Best regards,
> Jean-Michel

Nice post, nice thread.


--
Claudio Cicali
c.cicali@mclink.it
http://www.flexer.it
GPG Key Fingerprint = 2E12 64D5 E5F5 2883 0472 4CFF 3682 E786 555D 25CE

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jean-Michel POURE
Date:
Le Mardi 10 Février 2004 10:59, Claudio Cicali a écrit :
> Wonder what is missing to Postgresql ?

Thanks for your answer. In fact, PostgreSQL is not missing much, even in
commercial support.

Now, as a joke and invitation, at pgAdmin:
- we are missing 48 Italian strings in
http://www.pgadmin.org/pgadmin3/translation.php.
- a translation of pgAdmin website in Italian would be nice too.

Then, if you have time, visit pgAdmin advocay page:
http://www.pgadmin.org/pgadmin3/advocacy.php

Using the PAD file, you will be able to register pgAdmin III on Italian
downloading web sites. MySQL does it all the time for several softwares,
including "MySQL control center".

:)

Any help is welcome.

Cheers,
Jean-Michel


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jan Wieck
Date:
Claudio Cicali wrote:

> Paul Thomas wrote:
>> On 09/02/2004 15:25 Jan Wieck wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Thomas wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> In addition to this, "also open source" is correct, but there are
>>> significan differences in the quality of "open" vs. "open". MySQL is
>>> not free, so if the application developed is closed source, it
>>> requires the end user to purchase a commercial MySQL license per
>>> installation.
>>
>> Another good point in our favour IMHO.
>>
>
> This is *WRONG*.
>
> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
>
> Please refer to this page for further details.
> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
>

Did you even bother to look at that page yourself? It clearly says
exactly what I said up there. If your code is available free of change
as open source, then and only then, you and the users of your code are
free from license fees. In any other case you have to buy or keep your
stuff for yourself. Special restrictions apply to any changes you might
want to make to it, and so on and so forth.

Free to me means a little more than "currently free of charge under
certain restrictions that are subject to change under our discretion".
And the latter is how I read the MySQL license explanations, but IANAL.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Claudio Cicali
Date:
Jan Wieck wrote:

> Claudio Cicali wrote:
>>
>> This is *WRONG*.
>>
>> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
>>
>> Please refer to this page for further details.
>> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
>>
>
> Did you even bother to look at that page yourself? It clearly says

Yes, I did.

> exactly what I said up there. If your code is available free of change
> as open source, then and only then, you and the users of your code are
> free from license fees. In any other case you have to buy or keep your
> stuff for yourself. Special restrictions apply to any changes you might
> want to make to it, and so on and so forth.

(quite) Right. Free of charge and Open Source are not, technically,
synonims. License fees are another story.

> Free to me means a little more than "currently free of charge under
> certain restrictions that are subject to change under our discretion".
> And the latter is how I read the MySQL license explanations, but IANAL.

Wrong.

That's true for *every* software that holds a copyright (as the GPL).
As far as I'm the (only) copyright holder of a software, I (and only me)
could CHANGE COMPLETELY the way I distribute that software. This changes
do not apply to yet-released version.

This, btw, is the problem that currently leaves the new XFree86 version (by 4.3.99)
sligthly away from GPL. They changed the licence to a more restrictive one
(point 4.).

So, your assumption is meangingless.

>
> Jan
>


--
Claudio Cicali
c.cicali@mclink.it
http://www.flexer.it
GPG Key Fingerprint = 2E12 64D5 E5F5 2883 0472 4CFF 3682 E786 555D 25CE

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Andrew Sullivan
Date:
I'm pretty sure this belongs, if anywhere, on -advocacy, so I've set
Reply-To accordingly.  Of course, if you're munging the Reply-To,
that won't work, which is why this little note is here.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 10:59:24AM +0100, Claudio Cicali wrote:

> MySQL, as a *product*, it's not free as you argue. Ok. But MySQL as simple
> "software", is free. You can get the whole source and begin "forking" as you
> like. This is enough for me, and for anyone pondering "licensing" problems
> while choosing a dbms for her company.

Are you quite sure about that?  Cause I can say for sure that both my
managers and our customers would think long and hard about my
committal if I suggested that we just fork Postgres and try to
sell things with a proprietary DBMS underneath it.  I'd also have to
think pretty hard about whether I'd want to use such a product.

Consider the disadvantages, from the point of view of a customer, of
such a proprietary system.  They don't know how stable it is.  They
have no point of reference about its stability.  They don't know how
many bugs might be lurking in there.  Most importantly, if you go
bankrupt, they may not be able to get their data out _at all_.

I know, and probably you know too, that all of those limitations are
also problems for something based on Oracle, or MySQL, or Berkeley
DB, or PostgreSQL: the truth is that most users of an application don't
need to care about the guts underlying it.  But they _do_ need to be
able to justify their decisions in case something goes wrong.  When
something _does_ go wrong, you can bet that the person who made the
decision to buy the proprietary system will be in trouble unless that
proprietary system comes with a long list of satisfied customers.

And the last point is the rub: if you fork MySQL, you can't use the
MySQL name.  So you can't talk about your satisfied customers who are
using MySQL, because you've forked.

I'm not pretending that any of this is rational behaviour, but I'd
think that the last 50 (anyway) years of research in sociology and
economics would convince everyone that the myth of the rational
consumer is handy for economic models, but several degrees removed
from a description of actual human behaviour.

Having access to the source is indeed a protection that proprietary
systems don't usually offer, but only in case there is an active
community supporting the product.  If not, the source is a liability,
because you have to support it yourself.  This is why fostering an
active community is in the interests of PostgreSQL users, and why I
would be somewhat anxious about the GPLd version of MySQL, even if
MySQL AB was not asserting rather broad application of the GPL beyond
its seeming purpose.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan  | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
This work was visionary and imaginative, and goes to show that visionary
and imaginative work need not end up well.
        --Dennis Ritchie

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Stephan Szabo
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Claudio Cicali wrote:

> Jan Wieck wrote:
>
> > Claudio Cicali wrote:
> >>
> >> This is *WRONG*.
> >>
> >> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
> >>
> >> Please refer to this page for further details.
> >> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
> >>
> >
> > Did you even bother to look at that page yourself? It clearly says
>
> Yes, I did.
>
> > exactly what I said up there. If your code is available free of change
> > as open source, then and only then, you and the users of your code are
> > free from license fees. In any other case you have to buy or keep your
> > stuff for yourself. Special restrictions apply to any changes you might
> > want to make to it, and so on and so forth.
>
> (quite) Right. Free of charge and Open Source are not, technically,
> synonims. License fees are another story.

I'm confused.  The message in question used the word "free" along with
qualifications for closed source and last time I checked the word free did
not implicitly mean free software especially when combined with a
qualification for closed source.  I mean, I'm not the best English
speaker/writer in the world, but I'd thought the word was in common usage
before the advent of computers. ;)


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Claudio Cicali wrote:

> Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
>
> > Visit: http://www.mysql.com/company/index.html
> > "MySQL staff develop new releases every..."
> >
> > Equal access will (probably) never happen, because MySQL AB would not be able
> > to release "double-licences" without the agreement of all authors.
>
> Wonder what is missing to Postgresql ? (hint: strong commercial support. No flame, please ! :))

Yes, that same problem has certainly seemed to hamper the implementation
of the apache web server.  I mean, no one uses that thing...  without a
single strong company behind it, apache has just floundered the last few
years.

Guess what?  Both Postgresql and apache have strong commercial support.
It just isn't provided by one company who holds all the strings.

That's a good thing, by the way.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Steve Crawford
Date:
On Tuesday 10 February 2004 12:13 am, Claudio Cicali wrote:
> Paul Thomas wrote:
> > On 09/02/2004 15:25 Jan Wieck wrote:
> >> Paul Thomas wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> In addition to this, "also open source" is correct, but there
> >> are significan differences in the quality of "open" vs. "open".
> >> MySQL is not free, so if the application developed is closed
> >> source, it requires the end user to purchase a commercial MySQL
> >> license per installation.
> >
> > Another good point in our favour IMHO.
>
> This is *WRONG*.
>
> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
>
> Please refer to this page for further details.
> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html

MySQL seems to have a weird self-serving interpretation of GPL and I
don't trust them. They repeatedly talk about restrictions on
_internal_ distribution. From the MySQL licensing page
(http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html) they have a:

"...Commercial License, which allows you to provide commercial
software licenses to your customers or distribute MySQL-based
applications within your organization. This is for organizations that
do not want to release the source code for their applications as open
source / free software..."

From the MySQL licensing FAQ
(http://www.mysql.com/products/opensource-license.html):
"Free use for those who never copy, modify or distribute. As long as
you never distribute (internally or externally) the MySQL Software in
any way, you are free to use it for powering your application,
irrespective of whether your application is under GPL license or
not."

From the MySQL commercial license page
(http://www.mysql.com/products/commercial-license.html):
"If you distribute MySQL Software within your organization, you should
purchase a commercial license."

The same page in its description of things interpreted to be
commercial distribution of MySQL includes this gem:

"Selling software that requires customers to install MySQL themselves
on their own machines."

If this licensing interpretation applied to Linux (imagining for the
moment that a commercial licence for Linux were to exist) any
organization wishing to use the Linux version of Oracle or OpenOffice
or even PostgreSQL even for strictly internal use would have to
purchase a commercial Linux license.

MySQL claims on its licensing page that "MySQL AB bases its
interpretation of the GPL on the Free Software Foundation's
Frequently Asked Questions" and includes a link to that FAQ but note
the disparity between MySQL's interpretation and the FSF
interpretation which reads
(http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic):

The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are
free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever
releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies),
too; an organization can make a modified version and use it
internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.

IANAL but it appears to me from their FAQs that MySQL AB seeks to
require any company using a MySQL based product in any way to buy a
commercial license.

I'll stick with PostgreSQL (and not just for the license).

Cheers,
Steve


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Claudio Cicali wrote:

> Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> >
> > By free, we also mean that a product is developed by a community of people,
> > not a company raising funds. MySQL AB is mainly backed-up by investors. When
> > all this money is burnt-away, this will be the end of it.
>
> You can't say what YOU mean with "free". In this context "free" is what is
> licensed under GPL or GPL-compatible licenses.
>
> MySQL, as a *product*, it's not free as you argue. Ok. But MySQL as simple
> "software", is free. You can get the whole source and begin "forking" as you
> like. This is enough for me, and for anyone pondering "licensing" problems
> while choosing a dbms for her company.

You isn't quite right here.  This does not fix the licensing issues, since
you would still be wholly bound by the GPL.  I.e. all the code you write
that connects to MySQL would therefore have to be GPL'd.  I.e. it does
nothing to fix the licensing problems that have been brought up.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Andrew Sullivan
Date:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:50:31AM -0700, scott.marlowe wrote:
> you would still be wholly bound by the GPL.  I.e. all the code you write
> that connects to MySQL would therefore have to be GPL'd.  I.e. it does
> nothing to fix the licensing problems that have been brought up.

I know that's what MySQL claims, but (a) I can't see any plausible
interpretation of the GPL which makes that enforcable; and (b)
assuming someone really did fork, I can't see how MySQL's reading of
the GPL would be relevant (since you'd no longer be using MySQL, but
YourSQL or whatever it was called).

A

--
Andrew Sullivan  | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
The fact that technology doesn't work is no bar to success in the marketplace.
        --Philip Greenspun

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:50:31AM -0700, scott.marlowe wrote:
> > you would still be wholly bound by the GPL.  I.e. all the code you write
> > that connects to MySQL would therefore have to be GPL'd.  I.e. it does
> > nothing to fix the licensing problems that have been brought up.
>
> I know that's what MySQL claims, but (a) I can't see any plausible
> interpretation of the GPL which makes that enforcable; and (b)
> assuming someone really did fork, I can't see how MySQL's reading of
> the GPL would be relevant (since you'd no longer be using MySQL, but
> YourSQL or whatever it was called).

simple.  They GPL'd their connection libs.  So, if you write code that has
their connection libs in it, it's gotta be GPL'd.

Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.  but
you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code if
you distributed it outside your own private organization.

Renaming it would do nothing to help you.  The GPL would still bite you
pretty hard on distribution if you decide to use the GPL'd connect libs.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Andrew Sullivan
Date:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 12:06:43PM -0700, scott.marlowe wrote:
> simple.  They GPL'd their connection libs.  So, if you write code that has
> their connection libs in it, it's gotta be GPL'd.

Yes.  But you could fork from their old libs (which were, IIRC, LGPL)
and work from there.  Of course, you can't look at the new code
first, but if Compaq could clean room the IBM BIOS, it's gotta be
possible to find someone who knows nothing about this either.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan  | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
                --Brad Holland

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 12:06:43PM -0700, scott.marlowe wrote:
> > simple.  They GPL'd their connection libs.  So, if you write code that has
> > their connection libs in it, it's gotta be GPL'd.
>
> Yes.  But you could fork from their old libs (which were, IIRC, LGPL)
> and work from there.  Of course, you can't look at the new code
> first, but if Compaq could clean room the IBM BIOS, it's gotta be
> possible to find someone who knows nothing about this either.

But they changed their connection methods completely, so the old libs
won't talk to the 4.x database.  So, you'd have to clean room implement
their 4.0 connect protocal, and make your own non-GPL connect lib by wire
sniffing it or having someone read the code, write down a white paper of
the connection protocal and then implement from there.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jan Wieck
Date:
Claudio Cicali wrote:
> Jan Wieck wrote:
>
>> Claudio Cicali wrote:
>>>
>>> This is *WRONG*.
>>>
>>> MySQL is *free*, but is double-licensed.
>>>
>>> Please refer to this page for further details.
>>> http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
>>>
>>
>> Did you even bother to look at that page yourself? It clearly says
>
> Yes, I did.
>
>> exactly what I said up there. If your code is available free of change
>> as open source, then and only then, you and the users of your code are
>> free from license fees. In any other case you have to buy or keep your
>> stuff for yourself. Special restrictions apply to any changes you might
>> want to make to it, and so on and so forth.
>
> (quite) Right. Free of charge and Open Source are not, technically,
> synonims. License fees are another story.

I might be a little slow, or misunderstand you completely. You claimed
that "MySQL is *free*". In what sense is it free?

Obviously you don't mean that MySQL is free because you can download and
use the software for some purpose without paying money directly or
indirectly to MySQL AB in Sweden. Because under that definition Oracle
10g is *free*, you can download and install the complete Linux x86
Enterprise Edition and use it for some purposes and don't owe Oracle a
nickle. I don't think that anyone, including Oracle, would agree here
that this is *free* software.

So can you please explain in detail why you think that the term *free*
applies to MySQL.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
John DeSoi
Date:
Scott,

On Feb 10, 2004, at 2:06 PM, scott.marlowe wrote:

> Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.
> but
> you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code
> if
> you distributed it outside your own private organization.

So are you saying that if you connect to any GPL database (e.g. gnumed
is a GPL database created with Postgresql), you must GPL your code?
Even when using something like ODBC as the connection method?

Thanks,

John DeSoi, Ph.D.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Greg Stark
Date:
"scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes:

> Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.  but
> you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code if
> you distributed it outside your own private organization.

Note that in the case in question it's not entirely clear that the GPL is at
all a problem. The original poster was talking about a vertical market
application delivered for to a single user. That user is probably not
interested in reselling the software, so any restrictions on them reselling it
wouldn't actually bother them.

This is in fact precisely the type of consultant market that the GPL
envisions. And it's more common than one might think. Cygnus had various
clients for gcc/binutils/gdb targets who weren't concerned about what
restrictions the source came with as long as they got the software they
needed. The GPL is after all a heck of a lot less restrictive than the typical
EULA that accompanies binary software products.

--
greg

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Chris Travers
Date:
On Wed, 2004-02-11 at 03:06, scott.marlowe wrote:

>
> simple.  They GPL'd their connection libs.  So, if you write code that has
> their connection libs in it, it's gotta be GPL'd.
>
> Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.  but
> you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code if
> you distributed it outside your own private organization.
>
I am not sure I agree.  There are plenty of ways of circumventing this
issue with the connecting libraries.  For example, if I really wanted to
(and it would be quite feasible for me to do so) I could write a SOAP
server, CORBA component, or just a simple UNIX socket server which I
could use to communicate with a GPL'd program.  This new "server" would
connect using client libraries licensed under the LGPL and released to
the world.  I don't think MySQL would be happy, but I don't really think
that they could do much.  I might even call it OurSQL to piss them off
;-).

Of course, I don't do this because I prefer PostgreSQL anyway.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Chris Travers
Date:
On Wed, 2004-02-11 at 00:47, Steve Crawford wrote:

>
> MySQL seems to have a weird self-serving interpretation of GPL and I
> don't trust them.

This is not only a problem with MySQL, IMO.  I stopped using PDFLib for
a similar reason.  Their license (Aladdin Public License) stated that
use was beyond the scope of the license, but their web site asked for a
fee for any "commercial use" and their interpretation seemed to include
many in-house uses.

I am in the process, among other things, of finalizing the business plan
for a consulting firm I will be starting based on open source
solutions.  Our choice of products to support has a lot to do with these
sorts of issues.  Needless to say, PostgreSQL gets our vote :-)

Part of the issue is avoiding litigation.  If MySQL AB starts to run out
of funds, I don't want to see another fiaSCO emerge...  If they are not
trustworthy, or seem to be pushing the limits of a license, then they
are not worth doing business with.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On 12 Feb 2004, Chris Travers wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-02-11 at 03:06, scott.marlowe wrote:
>
> >
> > simple.  They GPL'd their connection libs.  So, if you write code that has
> > their connection libs in it, it's gotta be GPL'd.
> >
> > Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.  but
> > you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> > just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> > your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code if
> > you distributed it outside your own private organization.
> >
> I am not sure I agree.  There are plenty of ways of circumventing this
> issue with the connecting libraries.  For example, if I really wanted to
> (and it would be quite feasible for me to do so) I could write a SOAP
> server, CORBA component, or just a simple UNIX socket server which I
> could use to communicate with a GPL'd program.  This new "server" would
> connect using client libraries licensed under the LGPL and released to
> the world.  I don't think MySQL would be happy, but I don't really think
> that they could do much.  I might even call it OurSQL to piss them off
> ;-).
>
> Of course, I don't do this because I prefer PostgreSQL anyway.

no kidding.  I have to admit that in my mad scientist moments, I have
envisioned writing a new connect lib that's BSD/LPGL licensed.  Primarily
just because I can be a bit antisocial... :)


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"scott.marlowe"
Date:
On 12 Feb 2004, Greg Stark wrote:

>
> "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes:
>
> > Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.  but
> > you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> > just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> > your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code if
> > you distributed it outside your own private organization.
>
> Note that in the case in question it's not entirely clear that the GPL is at
> all a problem. The original poster was talking about a vertical market
> application delivered for to a single user. That user is probably not
> interested in reselling the software, so any restrictions on them reselling it
> wouldn't actually bother them.
>
> This is in fact precisely the type of consultant market that the GPL
> envisions. And it's more common than one might think. Cygnus had various
> clients for gcc/binutils/gdb targets who weren't concerned about what
> restrictions the source came with as long as they got the software they
> needed. The GPL is after all a heck of a lot less restrictive than the typical
> EULA that accompanies binary software products.

Very good point.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Chris Browne
Date:
scrawford@pinpointresearch.com (Steve Crawford) writes:
> The same page in its description of things interpreted to be
> commercial distribution of MySQL includes this gem:
>
> "Selling software that requires customers to install MySQL themselves
> on their own machines."
>
> If this licensing interpretation applied to Linux (imagining for the
> moment that a commercial licence for Linux were to exist) any
> organization wishing to use the Linux version of Oracle or
> OpenOffice or even PostgreSQL even for strictly internal use would
> have to purchase a commercial Linux license.

I find it disingenous that, in view of this, there is the attempt to
associate MySQL(tm) with 'open source software' like Linux, Perl, and
Apache (those being the other 'members' of "LAMP.")

If Linux, or Apache, or Perl, or any number of the other pieces of
free software that helped to popularize the use of free systems "that
resemble Unix" had had the encumbrances that MySQL AB claims for their
product, they would _never_ have gotten popular the way they have.

The reason why Linux web/file servers pop up everywhere is precisely
because there is NO mandate to report "commercial use" to some fixed
owner that wants to audit licensing fees.  They would never have
gotten into such widespread use in industry otherwise.

There's certainly room for PostgreSQL to have a sub-motto something
like:

  _PostgreSQL: Free software means no need to fear license audits._
--
"cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com"
http://cbbrowne.com/info/sap.html
Canada,  Mexico,  and Australia  form  the  Axis  of Nations  That Are
Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Jan Wieck
Date:
John DeSoi wrote:

> Scott,
>
> On Feb 10, 2004, at 2:06 PM, scott.marlowe wrote:
>
>> Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.
>> but
>> you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
>> just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
>> your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code
>> if
>> you distributed it outside your own private organization.
>
> So are you saying that if you connect to any GPL database (e.g. gnumed
> is a GPL database created with Postgresql), you must GPL your code?
> Even when using something like ODBC as the connection method?

No,

if you "link" to any library that is GPL you have to ship your stuff
under GPL as well. You don't have to ship your application at all, you
can keep it just for yourself and everything is fine. But as soon as you
want to give your stuff to anyone else, and for commercial application
vendors this is rather likely, you have to GPL your code when you need
GPL libraries, and that now is rather unlikely for commercial vendors.

This is the very reason why many GPL server or development products ship
their client connect or runtime libraries under LGPL. You can link
against a LGPL lib that connects to a GPL server and sell your stuff
closed source. Those GPL projects that do this don't care what you use
their product for, they only care what you do in their code. If you do
enhancements to their server or tool code to make your stuff work
(better), the GPL makes sure they get those enhancements. If you just
use it out of the box, do it, be happy and nice to meet you.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Christopher Browne
Date:
scott.marlowe@ihs.com ("scott.marlowe") wrote:
> no kidding.  I have to admit that in my mad scientist moments, I have
> envisioned writing a new connect lib that's BSD/LPGL licensed.  Primarily
> just because I can be a bit antisocial... :)

A group of users, distressed at license changes, proposed doing
exactly that for SAP-DB(tm), and were warned that the vendor would be
likely to assume that this was an attempt to circumvent their license,
and that this would be likely to lead to legal action.  Beware of
litigious vendors...
--
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "ntlug.org")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/wp.html
Economists are still trying to figure out why the girls with the least
principle draw the most interest.

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Richard Welty
Date:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:32:11 -0500 Chris Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> There's certainly room for PostgreSQL to have a sub-motto something
> like:

>   _PostgreSQL: Free software means no need to fear license audits._

here's something that Theo de Raadt says (in the context of OpenBSD)
that seems apropos:

   "Free means free"

richard
--
Richard Welty                                         rwelty@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking                                         518-573-7592
    Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"Greg Sabino Mullane"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> > There`s certainly room for PostgreSQL to have a sub-motto something
> > like:
>
> >   _PostgreSQL: Free software means no need to fear license audits._
>
> here`s something that Theo de Raadt says (in the context of OpenBSD)
> that seems apropos:
>
>    "Free means free"

That is very ironic, considering it was a license audit that got PostgreSQL
yanked from the OpenBSD distribution, all because they have an (IMO) irrational
fear of being sued (by whom?) over a license that has held up for many,
many years. Thus, OpenBSD does not consider us "free".

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200402171930

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iD8DBQFAMrJnvJuQZxSWSsgRAgWxAKCuFHJZSt5NPla+79nFojWQtIqUbQCfU8Fr
5eO+tUvXU0iU1Idb7tlbDI4=
=dZS4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Richard Welty
Date:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:30:58 -0000 Greg Sabino Mullane <greg@turnstep.com> wrote:
attribution of my quote of Theo de Raadt got stripped some how:
> >    "Free means free"
>
> That is very ironic, considering it was a license audit that got PostgreSQL
> yanked from the OpenBSD distribution, all because they have an (IMO) irrational
> fear of being sued (by whom?) over a license that has held up for many,
> many years. Thus, OpenBSD does not consider us "free".

you call it irrational, but Theo did it based on advice from an attorney.

i do not wish to reopen the license debate, so this will be my last
post in this thread.

cheers,
  richard
--
Richard Welty                                         rwelty@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking                                         518-573-7592
    Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"Ian Harding"
Date:
SCO is acting on advice from attorneys as well.

My last post.;^)

>>> Richard Welty <rwelty@averillpark.net> 02/17/04 05:38PM >>>
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:30:58 -0000 Greg Sabino Mullane <greg@turnstep.com> wrote:
attribution of my quote of Theo de Raadt got stripped some how:
> >    "Free means free"
>
> That is very ironic, considering it was a license audit that got PostgreSQL
> yanked from the OpenBSD distribution, all because they have an (IMO) irrational
> fear of being sued (by whom?) over a license that has held up for many,
> many years. Thus, OpenBSD does not consider us "free".

you call it irrational, but Theo did it based on advice from an attorney.

i do not wish to reopen the license debate, so this will be my last
post in this thread.

cheers,
  richard
--
Richard Welty                                         rwelty@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking                                         518-573-7592
    Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Scott Ribe
Date:
> I mean, I'm not the best English
> speaker/writer in the world

That's irrelevant, given how much time native English speakers spend
debating the "proper" use of the word "free" ;-)


--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@killerbytes.com
http://www.killerbytes.com/
(303) 665-7007 voice


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Karsten Hilbert
Date:
> >Now, if you don't mind using the ODBC connector, you're scott free.
> >but you WILL be bound by the GPL, and the GPL (not MySQL's interpretation,
> >just the GPL in general) being applied to connect libs seriously limits
> >your ability to distribute code, since you'd have to GPL your own code
> >if you distributed it outside your own private organization.
>
> So are you saying that if you connect to any GPL database (e.g. gnumed
> is a GPL database created with Postgresql), you must GPL your code?

The above only talks about the relationship between the license
of the connection libraries used on the client side in some
frontend code and the license of that frontend code. Any driver
can connect to PostgreSQL regardless of the driver's license.
But software that wants to *incorporate* the *driver*, say,
load it as a Python DB-API module is bound to comply with the
license of the driver. So, GnuMed has to be GPL if it wants to
use pyPgSQL which happens to be a GPL Python DB-API driver for
PostgreSQL.

What you seem to be asking, though, is whether I as a GnuMed
developer can say "No, you cannot connect to our GPL *schema*
unless your connection application is also GPL." Interesting.
Common Sense says "No, I can't do that." But Common Sense
also ponders why.

Myself, personally, as a GnuMed developer, don't really feel
inclined to think that I can stop you from connecting a
commercial application to "our" schema. I would prefer
cooperation.

> Even when using something like ODBC as the connection method?
No, see above.

Karsten Hilbert, MD
GnuMed i18n coordinator
--
GPG key ID E4071346 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net
E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
John DeSoi
Date:
Hi Karsten,

On May 24, 2004, at 7:59 PM, Karsten Hilbert wrote:

> Myself, personally, as a GnuMed developer, don't really feel
> inclined to think that I can stop you from connecting a
> commercial application to "our" schema. I would prefer
> cooperation.

OK, this is really spooky. As best as I know, I did not send this
message today -- only the original post back in February. It does not
appear I have a copy of it anywhere on my computer. I have no clue how
it was reposted today apparently from me.

But anyway, thanks for your input on this.

Best,

John DeSoi, Ph.D.


Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
Karsten Hilbert
Date:
Hi John,

> >Myself, personally, as a GnuMed developer, don't really feel
> >inclined to think that I can stop you from connecting a
> >commercial application to "our" schema. I would prefer
> >cooperation.
>
> OK, this is really spooky. As best as I know, I did not send this
> message today -- only the original post back in February. It does not
> appear I have a copy of it anywhere on my computer. I have no clue how
> it was reposted today apparently from me.
Don't worry. Just yesterday a repost from me appeared
mysteriously on GnuMed-devel from 10 weeks back ...

They are out there, I'm sure ;-)

Karsten
--
GPG key ID E4071346 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net
E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346

Re: I want to use postresql for this app, but...

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
> So are you saying that if you connect to any GPL database (e.g. gnumed
> is a GPL database created with Postgresql), you must GPL your code? Even
> when using something like ODBC as the connection method?

I don't think so. The difference is, that PostgreSQL is BSD and you are
connecting from a GPL source versus say MySQL which is GPL and
connecting from a BSD source.

The GPL is pervasive in that if your app requires libs that are GPL then
your app must also be GPL. However, since PostgreSQL libs are BSD we
don't have that issue.

IANAL but I believe that is the case.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



>
> Thanks,
>
> John DeSoi, Ph.D.
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend


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