Thread: PostgreSQL Magazine #00 is out ! Send feedback please !
Hi advocacy folks, I'm very pleased to announce the release of the demo version of the so-called "PostgreSQL Magazine". This issue #00 is brought to you thanks to the collective work of a dozen of people. In particular : Greg Smith, Frank Wiles, Hubert Lubaczewski, Jim Mlodgenski, Matt Tescher, Josh Berkus , Alvarro Herrera, Thom Brown, Greg Smith, Raymond O'Donnell, Ian Bailey-Leung, Osvaldo Tulini, Sivakumar Krishnamurthy, Evan Bennett and Belvedere Editorial Kudos to them ! The magazine is available in both online and paper versions. You can either : * Read it Online: http://pgmag.org/00/read * Buy the Print Edition: http://pgmag.org/00/buy * or Download the PDF: http://pgmag.org/00/download If you are currently at pgcon in ottawa, keep your eyes open ! A few print copies should be spread by Josh Berkus and Jehan-Guillaume de Rorthais :-) Please consider this first issue as a "beta". Our goal is to get feedback and see if there's a public for such a magazine. So if you've read the magazine and have some time to write an e-mail, we'd love to know what you think of this first attempt. More precisely, let us know : * If you would buy such a magazine on a regular basis ? * If you would recommend it to your friends or colleagues ? * If you would offer it to your clients as advocacy material ? * If you would write or help the magazine in any way ? * If you would be ok to see advertisement in the magazine ? * If you would like to have more pages in it ? * etc. Please send your comments, suggestions and critics at contact@pgmag.org. A global recap of all the feedbacks will be published on http://www.pgmag.org in a few days. Once again i'd like to tell my most sincere thanks to all the people involved in this project ! And to you, future readers of PostgreSQL Magazine : Enjoy ! ;-) -- damien clochard PS : The magazine itself is free software ! You can download the source files at: https://github.com/daamien/pgmag . The licence is CC-BY-SA 3.0: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ PPS : If you want to translate this magazine in your own language, please wait ! I will send a specific message for the i18n teams in a few days.
Excerpts from damien clochard's message of mié may 18 15:51:54 -0400 2011: > Hi advocacy folks, > > I'm very pleased to announce the release of the demo version of the > so-called "PostgreSQL Magazine". > > This issue #00 is brought to you thanks to the collective work of a > dozen of people. In particular : Greg Smith, Frank Wiles, Hubert > Lubaczewski, Jim Mlodgenski, Matt Tescher, Josh Berkus , Alvarro > Herrera, Thom Brown, Greg Smith, Raymond O'Donnell, Ian Bailey-Leung, > Osvaldo Tulini, Sivakumar Krishnamurthy, Evan Bennett and Belvedere > Editorial > > Kudos to them ! Thanks, I kept one of the physical copies as part of your thank-me gift :-D Kudos to you for pulling this off the ground! It looks great. -- Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
On 19 May 2011 18:34, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
Excerpts from damien clochard's message of mié may 18 15:51:54 -0400 2011:> Hi advocacy folks,Thanks, I kept one of the physical copies as part of your thank-me gift
>
> I'm very pleased to announce the release of the demo version of the
> so-called "PostgreSQL Magazine".
>
> This issue #00 is brought to you thanks to the collective work of a
> dozen of people. In particular : Greg Smith, Frank Wiles, Hubert
> Lubaczewski, Jim Mlodgenski, Matt Tescher, Josh Berkus , Alvarro
> Herrera, Thom Brown, Greg Smith, Raymond O'Donnell, Ian Bailey-Leung,
> Osvaldo Tulini, Sivakumar Krishnamurthy, Evan Bennett and Belvedere
> Editorial
>
> Kudos to them !
:-D
Kudos to you for pulling this off the ground! It looks great.
+1 !!
This really is excellent work Damien. :D ... although I haven't seen any copies to nab yet. :/
--
Thom Brown
Twitter: @darkixion
IRC (freenode): dark_ixion
Registered Linux user: #516935
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
El jue, 19-05-2011 a las 13:34 -0400, Alvaro Herrera escribió: > Excerpts from damien clochard's message of mié may 18 15:51:54 -0400 2011: > > Hi advocacy folks, > > > > I'm very pleased to announce the release of the demo version of the > > so-called "PostgreSQL Magazine". > > > > This issue #00 is brought to you thanks to the collective work of a > > dozen of people. In particular : Greg Smith, Frank Wiles, Hubert > > Lubaczewski, Jim Mlodgenski, Matt Tescher, Josh Berkus , Alvarro > > Herrera, Thom Brown, Greg Smith, Raymond O'Donnell, Ian Bailey-Leung, > > Osvaldo Tulini, Sivakumar Krishnamurthy, Evan Bennett and Belvedere > > Editorial Kudos all team!!! Remember to send No. to us we will encragar translation. -- Saludos, Gilberto Castillo Edificio Beijing. Miramar Trade Center. Etecsa. Miramar, La Habana.Cuba. --- This message was processed by Kaspersky Mail Gateway 5.6.28/RELEASE running at host imx3.etecsa.cu Visit our web-site: <http://www.kaspersky.com>, <http://www.viruslist.com>
Excerpts from Thom Brown's message of jue may 19 13:47:57 -0400 2011: > This really is excellent work Damien. :D ... although I haven't seen any > copies to nab yet. :/ Ping me if you see me around, I'm hauling my copy. -- Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
We'll be auctioning off three copies at the end of pgcon. Signed by Bruce and Greg! -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com San Francisco
Kudos.... :) I ordered a copy... now waiting for the postal service.
All, Can someone please take on re-formatting this magazine in US paper sizes? I'd like to get a bunch printed for OSCON and the other US conferences. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:51 PM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: > > PPS : If you want to translate this magazine in your own language, > please wait ! I will send a specific message for the i18n teams in a few > days. > BTW, how is the translation work going? -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación
Le 08/06/2011 03:57, Josh Berkus a écrit : > All, > > Can someone please take on re-formatting this magazine in US paper > sizes? I'd like to get a bunch printed for OSCON and the other US > conferences. > Changing the format from A4 to Letter should be doable although it will need a little work. All pages have to be reorganized. Here a few tips for people who want to hack the magazine * if possible, i would like that you change the title. Forks are ok but i think it's better if they don't use the name "PostgreSQL Magazine" * the source code is here : https://github.com/daamien/pgmag * put your work under a CC-BY-SA compatible licence. * you have to use Scribus 1.4.x The current version is 1.4.0rc3, available on recent debian/ubuntu as scribus-ng * the text might not fit entirely in the letter format. Slightly reduce the image sizes to give more space for the text frames. * first of all you have to modify the master pages, go to Edit>Master Pages * do not select all objects in the page and resize them all at once. This is a quick and dirty solution. The result would seem akward for the readers. You have to move and/or resize each object one by one * except for the name of the magazine, you don't have to edit the content or mess with the text styles. * if you need any help, please send a mail at contact@pgmag.org Depending on how you're comfortable with Scribus, this should take between 30 minutes and 2 hour. Personnally I don't have time to do this before june 18th. Josh : what's your deadline ? Anyway if you can't change the format to letter on time before OSCON, you can still buy the A4 version from lulu.com : http://www.lulu.com/product/couverture-souple/postgresql-magazine-%2300/15662484 I can't say it's cheap but the quality and delivery time are quite good. -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Le 08/06/2011 05:12, Jaime Casanova a écrit : > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:51 PM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: >> >> PPS : If you want to translate this magazine in your own language, >> please wait ! I will send a specific message for the i18n teams in a few >> days. >> > > BTW, how is the translation work going? > Not started yet ! I'm still fixing a few things in the magazine to ease the translations and preparing the website for collaborative work. I expect to send a call for translators by the end of the week. -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
El mar, 07-06-2011 a las 22:12 -0500, Jaime Casanova escribió: > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:51 PM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: > > > > PPS : If you want to translate this magazine in your own language, > > please wait ! I will send a specific message for the i18n teams in a few > > days. > > > > BTW, how is the translation work going? When have decision, wait your invitation write to join in this work. -- Saludos, Gilberto Castillo Edificio Beijing. Miramar Trade Center. Etecsa. Miramar, La Habana.Cuba. --- This message was processed by Kaspersky Mail Gateway 5.6.28/RELEASE running at host imx3.etecsa.cu Visit our web-site: <http://www.kaspersky.com>, <http://www.viruslist.com>
El mar, 07-06-2011 a las 18:57 -0700, Josh Berkus escribió: > All, > > Can someone please take on re-formatting this magazine in US paper > sizes? I'd like to get a bunch printed for OSCON and the other US > conferences. We started a diploma course on PostgreSQL in July, we will deal the improvements of 9.1. -- Saludos, Gilberto Castillo Edificio Beijing. Miramar Trade Center. Etecsa. Miramar, La Habana.Cuba. --- This message was processed by Kaspersky Mail Gateway 5.6.28/RELEASE running at host imx3.etecsa.cu Visit our web-site: <http://www.kaspersky.com>, <http://www.viruslist.com>
Damien, > * if possible, i would like that you change the title. Forks are ok > but i think it's better if they don't use the name "PostgreSQL > Magazine" Wait, are you saying that you want me to rename it if I reformat it to US Letter? That pretty much eliminates any desire I have to get the magazine printed. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com San Francisco
On Jun 8, 2011, at 12:07 PM, Joshua Berkus wrote: > Damien, > >> * if possible, i would like that you change the title. Forks are ok >> but i think it's better if they don't use the name "PostgreSQL >> Magazine" > > Wait, are you saying that you want me to rename it if I reformat it to US Letter? We should call it the "Postgres Magazine"! /me runs for cover -- Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect jim@nasby.net 512.569.9461 (cell) http://jim.nasby.net
xte déposéxte déposéLe 08/06/2011 19:07, Joshua Berkus a écrit : > Damien, > >> * if possible, i would like that you change the title. Forks are ok >> but i think it's better if they don't use the name "PostgreSQL >> Magazine" > > Wait, are you saying that you want me to rename it if I reformat it to US Letter? > Except for translations, i think that forks should not be named "PostgreSQL Magazine". My general concern is : what happens if someone get the source file, puts his own articles (or more likely advertisment) in it ? I'd be uncomfortable if that new version used the same name that the original one. Of course, we can argue that there are different types of forks. Some may consider that the name should be changed only if the content is modified. I disagree with that. Personnally i think that (like body and soul) layout and content can't be separated... Now this is just my point of view. I don't have a strong opinion about this. If you want to keep the original name, do it. I won't stop you :) > That pretty much eliminates any desire I have to get the magazine printed. > I don't understand why. To me there are at least 3 simple ways to fulfill your desire : a/ Changing the name would take 2 minutes. Compared to the work needed by the format change, it's peanuts. I could even write a scribus script to do it in 3 seconds tops :) b/ Again, you can print the magazine in the original A4 format via lulu.com. The copies will be printed and shipped from the US. c/ I guess other printing services in US can handle A4 paper too. Anyway this first issue is just a demo. If we decide to launch the magazine for real, there will be lots of questions raised such as the economic model, the number of pages and of course the "trademark" policy. About the paper format, if people prefer US Letter instead of A4, obviously we'll switch to Letter -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On 6/8/11 12:13 PM, damien clochard wrote: > c/ I guess other printing services in US can handle A4 paper too. You're missing the point. We have (limited) free printing here in the US, but only if we use US paper sizes. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > On 6/8/11 12:13 PM, damien clochard wrote: >> c/ I guess other printing services in US can handle A4 paper too. > > You're missing the point. We have (limited) free printing here in the > US, but only if we use US paper sizes. > Maybe try running a few on legal (8.5 x 14) and trimming it. I assume Damien can save a copy of the existing & add trim (crop) marks. I think A4 is ~ 8.3 x 11.7 .... correct? -- Mike Ellsworth
On 06/08/2011 12:20 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > On 6/8/11 12:13 PM, damien clochard wrote: >> c/ I guess other printing services in US can handle A4 paper too. > > You're missing the point. We have (limited) free printing here in the > US, but only if we use US paper sizes. It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to avoid problems such as this. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development The PostgreSQL Conference - http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ @cmdpromptinc - @postgresconf - 509-416-6579
> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one > of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to > avoid problems such as this. That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on US, even if we were paying for printing on US. Anyway, I don't think Damien understood why I was wanting to reformat it. Let's wait for him to answer. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On ons, 2011-06-08 at 21:13 +0200, damien clochard wrote: > My general concern is : what happens if someone get the source file, > puts his own articles (or more likely advertisment) in it ? I'd be > uncomfortable if that new version used the same name that the original > one. > > Of course, we can argue that there are different types of forks. Some > may consider that the name should be changed only if the content is > modified. I disagree with that. Personnally i think that (like body > and soul) layout and content can't be separated... If that's what you want, you should put it under a more appropriate license. The work is currently distributed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike, which clearly allows adding articles or reformatting the paper size, as long as it is marked somewhere (most reasonably in the imprint) that modifications were made. Perhaps you would like to add -NoDerivs or -NonCommercial to address these concerns of yours. Additionally, you could consider trademarking the magazine name. Not that I necessarily recommend doing any of these, but those would be the right steps.
Le 08/06/2011 22:24, Peter Eisentraut a écrit :
> On ons, 2011-06-08 at 21:13 +0200, damien clochard wrote:
>> My general concern is : what happens if someone get the source file,
>> puts his own articles (or more likely advertisment) in it ? I'd be
>> uncomfortable if that new version used the same name that the original
>> one.
>>
>> Of course, we can argue that there are different types of forks. Some
>> may consider that the name should be changed only if the content is
>> modified. I disagree with that. Personnally i think that (like body
>> and soul) layout and content can't be separated...
>
> If that's what you want, you should put it under a more appropriate
> license. The work is currently distributed under Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike, which clearly allows adding articles or
> reformatting the paper size, as long as it is marked somewhere (most
> reasonably in the imprint) that modifications were made.
>
> Perhaps you would like to add -NoDerivs or -NonCommercial to address
> these concerns of yours.
Again i am ok with derivative works wether they are commercial or not.
I certainly need to do more research to know is the CC licences are
covering the name of document itself... Until you raise that point, i
was thinking that if you modify a song published under CC licence, than
you have to change its title... but i might be wrong.
btw here is the current licence of the magazine :
#########
The articles contained in this magazine are released under the Creative
Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. This means you may
adapt, copy, distribute and transmit the articles but only under the
following conditions: You must attribute the work to the original author
in some way (at least a name, email or URL) and to this magazine by name
('PostgreSQL Magazine') and the URL (pgmag.org). You cannot attribute
the article(s) in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your
use of the work. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you
must distribute the resulting work under the same, similar or a
compatible license.
#########
> Additionally, you could consider trademarking the magazine name.
>
Probably...
My first idea was to let the PGDG claim the ownership of the "PostgreSQL
Magazine" trademark... Now i see there's a Canadian non-profit coming up
for that. Why not giving the trademark to this association as wall. But
this is my priority for now...
> Not that I necessarily recommend doing any of these, but those would be
> the right steps.
>
Yes this is one of the many discussions we need to have before lauching
the magazine for real :)
--
damien clochard
dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Le 08/06/2011 21:29, Mike Ellsworth a écrit : > On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: >> On 6/8/11 12:13 PM, damien clochard wrote: >>> c/ I guess other printing services in US can handle A4 paper too. >> >> You're missing the point. We have (limited) free printing here in the >> US, but only if we use US paper sizes. >> I was not aware of that. I understand your need now. > Maybe try running a few on legal (8.5 x 14) and trimming it. > I assume Damien can save a copy of the existing & add trim (crop) marks. > I think A4 is ~ 8.3 x 11.7 .... correct? > This is a good idea. I've just tried it: Moving from A4 to legal is way easier than moving from A4 to letter. The width is almost the same. The legal eight to bigger so you get a very big margin on the bottom. But i guess the printer can either cut the margin or with a little scribus work you can make less huge... -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Damien, > This is a good idea. I've just tried it: Moving from A4 to legal is way > easier than moving from A4 to letter. The width is almost the same. The > legal eight to bigger so you get a very big margin on the bottom. But i > guess the printer can either cut the margin or with a little scribus > work you can make less huge... I'll ask our print donor. I'm not sure this is possible because they'll be printing double sheets, and while 11"X17" is a common paper size for reprographics departments, 17"X28" is not. But I'll ask. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
damien clochard wrote: > Of course, we can argue that there are different types of forks. Some > may consider that the name should be changed only if the content is > modified. I disagree with that. Personnally i think that (like body and > soul) layout and content can't be separated... > If your intention for releasing the magazine source code was to provide extra publicity around it, by allowing more copies to distribute at no cost to you, that isn't really compatible with your position here. Josh wants to print more copies so that more people see "PostgreSQL Magazine" and would be interested in future issues. Let's say he reformats and releases it as the first issue of "Awesome Postgre". Even though it will still reference your publication in the credit, some of the branding publicity you really should want here will be lost by that change. People remember the title more than they look at the attribution information. > About the paper format, if people prefer US Letter instead of > A4, obviously we'll switch to Letter > US Letter is 8.5 x 11 = 216 × 279 mm, Legal 8.5 x 14 = 216 × 356 mm. A4 is 8.27 × 11.69 = 210 × 297 mm. What I have done as someone who ends up working on material that publishes in both formats is limit the size I use to 8.27 x 11 = 210 x 279 mm. When printed on US Letter you get larger margins on the left and right, on A4 they are at the top and bottom, and the total area you have to work with drops. But if you assume all your printing will have some white margin anyway, this is not a terrible approach. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > >> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one >> of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to >> avoid problems such as this. > > That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. > Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on > US, even if we were paying for printing on US. Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the states) around our ridiculous measuring system. > > Anyway, I don't think Damien understood why I was wanting to reformat > it. Let's wait for him to answer. > Nod. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development The PostgreSQL Conference - http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ @cmdpromptinc - @postgresconf - 509-416-6579
Le 09/06/2011 02:38, Joshua D. Drake a écrit : > On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> >>> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one >>> of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to >>> avoid problems such as this. >> >> That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. >> Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on >> US, even if we were paying for printing on US. > > Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I > checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't > used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole > on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the > states) around our ridiculous measuring system. > Understood. My next question would be : "Is that true in others countries ?" What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On Jun 9, 2011 9:30 AM, "damien clochard" <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
>
> Le 09/06/2011 02:38, Joshua D. Drake a écrit :
> > On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> >>
> >>> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one
> >>> of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to
> >>> avoid problems such as this.
> >>
> >> That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to.
> >> Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on
> >> US, even if we were paying for printing on US.
> >
> > Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I
> > checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't
> > used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole
> > on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the
> > states) around our ridiculous measuring system.
> >
>
> Understood.
> My next question would be : "Is that true in others countries ?"
>
> What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ?
>
I am pretty sure that A4 is the default everywhere except the us and Canada. Though japan may be different too?
/Magnus
Hi Damien, > What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? In Australia it is A4. -- Gabriele Bartolini - 2ndQuadrant Italia PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support Gabriele.Bartolini@2ndQuadrant.it - www.2ndQuadrant.it
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:30 AM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: > > What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? > A4 in Ecuador, and i'm pretty sure is the same for whole latinamerican region... but i can be wrong :D -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación
Le 08/06/2011 23:55, Greg Smith a écrit : > damien clochard wrote: >> Of course, we can argue that there are different types of forks. Some >> may consider that the name should be changed only if the content is >> modified. I disagree with that. Personnally i think that (like body and >> soul) layout and content can't be separated... >> > > If your intention for releasing the magazine source code was to provide > extra publicity around it, by allowing more copies to distribute at no > cost to you, that isn't really compatible with your position here. Josh > wants to print more copies so that more people see "PostgreSQL Magazine" > and would be interested in future issues. Let's say he reformats and > releases it as the first issue of "Awesome Postgre". Even though it > will still reference your publication in the credit, some of the > branding publicity you really should want here will be lost by that > change. People remember the title more than they look at the > attribution information. > My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. I've been behind a PostgreSQL booth more than once, and i've always been disappointed by the quality of promotional leaflets and flyers we were giving. Especially compared to level of what you can find for other RDBMS booth. It's not about building a trademark. If after some time, a fork of the magazine becomes more popular than the magazine itself, frankly it won't bother me... I look at this as i look to the debian/ubuntu situation : in terms of trademark ubuntu is far more popular, but that doesn't stop people from getting involved in debian community and it doesn't lower the quality of their work. > >> About the paper format, if people prefer US Letter instead of >> A4, obviously we'll switch to Letter >> > > US Letter is 8.5 x 11 = 216 × 279 mm, Legal 8.5 x 14 = 216 × 356 mm. A4 > is 8.27 × 11.69 = 210 × 297 mm. What I have done as someone who ends up > working on material that publishes in both formats is limit the size I > use to 8.27 x 11 = 210 x 279 mm. When printed on US Letter you get > larger margins on the left and right, on A4 they are at the top and > bottom, and the total area you have to work with drops. But if you > assume all your printing will have some white margin anyway, this is not > a terrible approach. > I clearly disagree with that. Just open any magazine you'll find : they are never limited by a "printers margin" . Of course in most pages, there will be an "editor margin" to easethe reading. But at any moment, they have the ability to print a full-page photo or use the borders of the pages. I'm using a lot of full page photos or edge objects in the issue #00. I think this is one of the things that make it look "like a real magazine". For instance, take a look at page 8. The full page photograph gives a lot of "power" to the following interview. It really has a strong effect on readers.That might seem strange but I believe that this effect would be lower with margin around the photo. -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
2011/6/9 Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net>: > > On Jun 9, 2011 9:30 AM, "damien clochard" <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: >> >> Le 09/06/2011 02:38, Joshua D. Drake a écrit : >> > On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> >> >> >>> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and >> >>> one >> >>> of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to >> >>> avoid problems such as this. >> >> >> >> That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. >> >> Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on >> >> US, even if we were paying for printing on US. >> > >> > Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I >> > checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't >> > used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole >> > on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the >> > states) around our ridiculous measuring system. >> > >> >> Understood. >> My next question would be : "Is that true in others countries ?" >> >> What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? >> > > I am pretty sure that A4 is the default everywhere except the us and Canada. > Though japan may be different too? Japan uses the DIN (ISO 216) system and A4 is in common use; e.g. the flyers lying around on my desk are all A4 size. "By 1975 so many countries were using the German system that it was established as an ISO standard, as well as the official United Nations document format. By 1977 A4 was the standard letter format in 88 of 148 countries. Today the standard has been adopted by all countries in the world except the United States and Canada. In Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile and the Philippines the US letter format is still in common use, despite their official adoption of the ISO standard." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#The_international_standard:_ISO_216 Ian Barwick
On Thursday 9. June 2011 09.36.51 Magnus Hagander wrote: > On Jun 9, 2011 9:30 AM, "damien clochard" <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: > > Le 09/06/2011 02:38, Joshua D. Drake a écrit : > > > On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > >> That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. > > >> Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing > > >> on US, even if we were paying for printing on US. > > > > > > Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I > > > checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't > > > used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole > > > on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the > > > states) around our ridiculous measuring system. > > > > Understood. > > My next question would be : "Is that true in others countries ?" > > > > What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? > > I am pretty sure that A4 is the default everywhere except the us and > Canada. Though japan may be different too? <flame>I wonder if the people of the US is suffering from a collective "Not Invented Here"-syndrome?</flame> regards, Leif
El jue, 09-06-2011 a las 02:41 -0500, Jaime Casanova escribió: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:30 AM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote: > > > > What is the default paper format outside North America and Europe ? > > > > A4 in Ecuador, and i'm pretty sure is the same for whole latinamerican > region... but i can be wrong :D In Cuban, letter (11'X17') -- Saludos, Gilberto Castillo Edificio Beijing. Miramar Trade Center. Etecsa. Miramar, La Habana.Cuba. --- This message was processed by Kaspersky Mail Gateway 5.6.28/RELEASE running at host imx3.etecsa.cu Visit our web-site: <http://www.kaspersky.com>, <http://www.viruslist.com>
Le 09/06/2011 02:38, Joshua D. Drake a écrit : > On 06/08/2011 01:22 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> >>> It seems to me, that this falls directly in line with education and one >>> of the non profits would be willing to spend money to print at A4 to >>> avoid problems such as this. >> >> That also falls under the heading of spending money we don't have to. >> Especially since printing on A4 would cost us 4X as much as printing on >> US, even if we were paying for printing on US. > > Just as a follow up to this, I thought JB was not quite accurate but I > checked. It is going to be expensive to print this at A4. This didn't > used to be true (which is why I checked) but nowadays with the whole > on-demand thing, the printers have really unified (at least in the > states) around our ridiculous measuring system. > I'm just curious but exactly how much are talking about here ? How much would cost the printing of 24 pages in A4 with full color and no margins ? Based on the lulu.com pricing, you can get 100 copies for US$710 (without shipping). Is that the numbers you found too ? -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Leif Biberg Kristensen wrote: > <flame>I wonder if the people of the US is suffering from a collective "Not > Invented Here"-syndrome?</flame> > The paper size conversion is blocked behind converting the US to metric, which started in 1975 and was abandoned six years later as too expensive to continue by our government. You first have to get rid of the idea that a paper size measured in inches is important before people in the US would be open to the benefits the standard A[N] and B[N] sizes give, i.e. how folded copies turn into the smaller sizes. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
damien clochard wrote: > My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the > form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. And you succeeded at that, no question. And the idea of having a magazine to give out, instead of the usual boring stuff, is an interesting one. There's a disconnect between where you're at and where I'm at here now though, one that this whole discussion highlights. I'd rather see something that's possible to produce in quantity, around the world, as a more important priority than optimizing for "classy and eye-catching" at the expense of other practical constraints. I think the PostgreSQL community might be better served by something less ambitious, graphically, that was easier to print on a global scale. I really appreciate the work you put into targeting print magazine levels of polish for the design of #00. I just don't think that's a sustainable nor necessary quality level for a PUG/booth magazine to target in the future. It's hard enough to get useful magazine-style content produced on any regular schedule. If it's got to be graphically intense and it ends up being challenging to distribute, too, you may have made the requirements too hard to accomplish. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
On Thursday, June 09, 2011 9:30:34 am Greg Smith wrote: > Leif Biberg Kristensen wrote: > > <flame>I wonder if the people of the US is suffering from a collective > > "Not Invented Here"-syndrome?</flame> > > The paper size conversion is blocked behind converting the US to metric, > which started in 1975 and was abandoned six years later as too expensive > to continue by our government. You first have to get rid of the idea > that a paper size measured in inches is important before people in the > US would be open to the benefits the standard A[N] and B[N] sizes give, > i.e. how folded copies turn into the smaller sizes. Unfortunately, the US conversion to metric has a longer history than that(1866):) http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/metric-act.html -- Adrian Klaver adrian.klaver@gmail.com
Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. Thanks -- Mike Ellsworth
Le 09/06/2011 19:55, Mike Ellsworth a écrit : > Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. > I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on > 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. > http://pgmag.org/00/download -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Le 09/06/2011 18:45, Greg Smith a écrit : > damien clochard wrote: >> My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the >> form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. > > And you succeeded at that, no question. And the idea of having a > magazine to give out, instead of the usual boring stuff, is an > interesting one. > > There's a disconnect between where you're at and where I'm at here now > though, one that this whole discussion highlights. I'd rather see > something that's possible to produce in quantity, around the world, as a > more important priority than optimizing for "classy and eye-catching" at > the expense of other practical constraints. I think the PostgreSQL > community might be better served by something less ambitious, > graphically, that was easier to print on a global scale. I really > appreciate the work you put into targeting print magazine levels of > polish for the design of #00. I just don't think that's a sustainable > nor necessary quality level for a PUG/booth magazine to target in the > future. It's hard enough to get useful magazine-style content produced > on any regular schedule. If it's got to be graphically intense and it > ends up being challenging to distribute, too, you may have made the > requirements too hard to accomplish. > You put the debate in a nutshell ! Indeed, there is a strategic choice : being Flashy vs. being Universal ;-) For the demo issue, i wanted to go as far as i could with my little knowledge of Scribus... This was a kind of Proof of Concept. Now we know what we can get. The question is "do we need such a graphical complexity ?". This is a great debate. A long one ! There's lot of parameters to consider : the difference of paper format of course but also more generic arguments. For example i guess it also depends on the economic model we will build. If we can have sponsors that are ok to pay for an high-end magazine, why limiting ourselves ? Anyway who can do more, can do less :-) In the end, if we decide that the priority is to make an easily printable magazine, that won't be a problem... -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On 6/9/11 12:58 AM, damien clochard wrote: > My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the > form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. I've been behind a > PostgreSQL booth more than once, and i've always been disappointed by > the quality of promotional leaflets and flyers we were giving. > Especially compared to level of what you can find for other RDBMS booth. Right, so you missed the point that the magazine needs to be easy/cheap to print everywhere, or it doesn't get distributed at all. > Based on the lulu.com pricing, you can get 100 copies for US$710 > (without shipping). Is that the numbers you found too ? ... plus shipping. As opposed to getting 200 copies made for *free*, which I can do if it's US Letter. If we have to pay $7 each for copies of the magazine, we're going to be pretty reluctant to give them out. Which is the exact opposite of what I thought you wanted. I'm not asking you to reformat the magazine as US Letter. I'm asking you to allow others to do so, without pitching a fit that they're messing up your magazine. And the reason I asked for a volunteer to reformat is that my desire is to have a US Letter layout which looks as good as the current A4 layout, rather than something which has huge awkward margins and text shrunk 10%. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 09/06/2011 22:38, Josh Berkus a écrit : > On 6/9/11 12:58 AM, damien clochard wrote: >> My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the >> form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. I've been behind a >> PostgreSQL booth more than once, and i've always been disappointed by >> the quality of promotional leaflets and flyers we were giving. >> Especially compared to level of what you can find for other RDBMS booth. > > Right, so you missed the point that the magazine needs to be easy/cheap > to print everywhere, or it doesn't get distributed at all. > Honestly I think is the "easy to print" goal is achieved. With lulu.com, you can get as many copies you want shipped where you want. It takes a few seconds. Now if you want "easy and cheap and classy" than yes it's gonna be hard. Again, i may have a strong opinion on this, but i'm open to discussion. If in the end, we decide that "easy and cheap" is the priority then i will lower the layout quality of the magazine. >> Based on the lulu.com pricing, you can get 100 copies for US$710 >> (without shipping). Is that the numbers you found too ? > > ... plus shipping. As opposed to getting 200 copies made for *free*, > which I can do if it's US Letter. They are free because the specific sponsor that you found requires US Letter format. Maybe for the next issues, once we have an economic model, then we will find sponsors that can pay for A4 format printing. Do you think it's possible or am i daydreaming ? :-) > If we have to pay $7 each for copies > of the magazine, we're going to be pretty reluctant to give them out. > Which is the exact opposite of what I thought you wanted. Well it's not exactly what i want. I don't think that you can give this magazine just like you give away leaflets or flyers. The magazine should be free, but not given to everyone. I mean you don't give 24 pages of paper to a guy that will throw it before the end of the day. To me, flyers and leaflet are "mass marketing" whereas the magazine fills the need for "target marketing". For instance, you would give the magazine to people that come to the booth with a bunch of questions, or people who spend a little time chatting on the booth. It's not a reward or anything like that... It's just a advocacy material aimed for smaller but better audience In a nutshell, my goal is not print as many magazine as possible and give them out to anybody. That would be a terrible waste of paper. I prefer printing less copies, with a high-end look and feel, and give to people that will actually read it. > I'm not asking you to reformat the magazine as US Letter. I'm asking > you to allow others to do so, without pitching a fit that they're > messing up your magazine. wow :-/ a) I am ok to reformat the magazine for you. I just said that i can't do it before june 18th. Btw you never gave your deadline. b) I'm doing my best to allow forks. The source code is on github under a CC-BY-SA licence. I'm using open formats everywhere. c) I am not pitching a fit to you. I am just discussing about trademarks issues, format possibilities and other questions that are raised by what you are asking d) I never said it was MY magazine. Almost 20 persons have worked on the first issue and i expect more people to contribute. If you find any sentence where i say that the magazine is my own project, let me know. > And the reason I asked for a volunteer to > reformat is that my desire is to have a US Letter layout which looks as > good as the current A4 layout, rather than something which has huge > awkward margins and text shrunk 10%. > Like i said, you can't have "easy + cheap + classy". At least for this demo issue. For the next ones, we will try to ease format transformation. For now, if you want the US Letter version to be as good as the original version, than each page needs to be revamped. This is not trivial. I think it would take between 30 minutes and 2 hours. If you can wait for week, i will do it for you. -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On Jun 9, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: > Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. > I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on > 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. Failing that, pretty much any major US stationary store carries A4 paper. -- -- Christophe Pettus xof@thebuild.com
Damien, > They are free because the specific sponsor that you found requires US > Letter format. Maybe for the next issues, once we have an economic > model, then we will find sponsors that can pay for A4 format printing. > Do you think it's possible or am i daydreaming ? :-) It's possible, but you're *always* going to have a use for that $800 to $2000 you'd spend on printing if we could get it printed for free. Besides ... > I don't think that you can give this magazine just like you give away > leaflets or flyers. The magazine should be free, but not given to > everyone. I mean you don't give 24 pages of paper to a guy that will > throw it before the end of the day. Sure. But $7 each is on the same scale as a t-shirt. I'd like to get it down to $3 each (or free in the US). At that level, I can give one to every MIS or CTO or DBA I meet who is seriously interested in PostgreSQL. As an example, we had some nice PostgreSQL USB drives made. But they ended up costing us $8 each. Which we then couldn't justify giving out for free. As a result, we sat on them for over a year and didn't give *any* of them out. I'd like to avoid repeating that with the magazine. > In a nutshell, my goal is not print as many magazine as possible and > give them out to anybody. That would be a terrible waste of paper. I > prefer printing less copies, with a high-end look and feel, and give to > people that will actually read it. What I'm pointing out is that 100 is not enough in the US. We'd need 200 to 300, which is $2000 if we print them A4, but only $700 or so if we print them US Letter. That's a pretty substantial difference. > a) I am ok to reformat the magazine for you. I just said that i can't do > it before june 18th. Btw you never gave your deadline. Biggest deadline would be getting them printed in time for OSCON. June 18th would be in plenty of time for that. > c) I am not pitching a fit to you. I am just discussing about trademarks > issues, format possibilities and other questions that are raised by what > you are asking Right, this started with you saying that you didn't want me using the name "PostgreSQL Magazine" if I reformatted it US Letter. > Like i said, you can't have "easy + cheap + classy". At least for this > demo issue. For the next ones, we will try to ease format transformation. > > For now, if you want the US Letter version to be as good as the original > version, than each page needs to be revamped. This is not trivial. I > think it would take between 30 minutes and 2 hours. That actually sound pretty easy to me ... ah. You mean 2 hours per page? Huh. Seems like most of the pages would be easier than that, there's just a few with bleeds to edge which would be painful. Of course, I've never designed anything bigger than a flyer with Scribus, maybe it's really difficult to use. BTW, you should maybe try redoing the EU flyers around some of our flyer designs here. We do some pretty professional-looking flyers in the US. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 09/06/2011 23:45, Josh Berkus a écrit : > Damien, > >> They are free because the specific sponsor that you found requires US >> Letter format. Maybe for the next issues, once we have an economic >> model, then we will find sponsors that can pay for A4 format printing. >> Do you think it's possible or am i daydreaming ? :-) > > It's possible, but you're *always* going to have a use for that $800 to > $2000 you'd spend on printing if we could get it printed for free. > Besides ... > I understand perfectly but look at the situation the other way around : if the magazine was in US Letter format, then the rest-of-the-world would have to pay an expensive price to print it. From your point of view, Letter format is cheaper. But from a global perspective it would be more expensive. >> I don't think that you can give this magazine just like you give away >> leaflets or flyers. The magazine should be free, but not given to >> everyone. I mean you don't give 24 pages of paper to a guy that will >> throw it before the end of the day. > > Sure. But $7 each is on the same scale as a t-shirt. I'd like to get > it down to $3 each (or free in the US). At that level, I can give one > to every MIS or CTO or DBA I meet who is seriously interested in PostgreSQL. > > As an example, we had some nice PostgreSQL USB drives made. But they > ended up costing us $8 each. Which we then couldn't justify giving out > for free. As a result, we sat on them for over a year and didn't give > *any* of them out. I'd like to avoid repeating that with the magazine. > I've been there too :) My conclusion is that when we decide that some goodies are free, then we should give them all out. Regardless how much they cost. Like you said the worst thing is to sat on them... Afterwards you can judge that it was a "bad idea"(tm) and decide you won't do it again. But during the booth i think it's better not to raise such questions. That's just not the right place and time. >> a) I am ok to reformat the magazine for you. I just said that i can't do >> it before june 18th. Btw you never gave your deadline. > > Biggest deadline would be getting them printed in time for OSCON. June > 18th would be in plenty of time for that. > ok >> c) I am not pitching a fit to you. I am just discussing about trademarks >> issues, format possibilities and other questions that are raised by what >> you are asking > > Right, this started with you saying that you didn't want me using the > name "PostgreSQL Magazine" if I reformatted it US Letter. > What is said was : **if possible**, i **would like** that **any fork** change their name. Then I repeated that it wasn't a strong opinion and that i was ok if you don't follow my view. Call that "pitching a fit" if you want... :D >> Like i said, you can't have "easy + cheap + classy". At least for this >> demo issue. For the next ones, we will try to ease format transformation. >> >> For now, if you want the US Letter version to be as good as the original >> version, than each page needs to be revamped. This is not trivial. I >> think it would take between 30 minutes and 2 hours. > > That actually sound pretty easy to me ... ah. You mean 2 hours per > page? Huh. Seems like most of the pages would be easier than that, > there's just a few with bleeds to edge which would be painful. > > Of course, I've never designed anything bigger than a flyer with > Scribus, maybe it's really difficult to use. Scribus is not difficult. You would have the very same problem with InDesign or Quark, really. Ask any layout editor you can find, the page format is a key parameter. You don't jump from one to another like that. The problem we face here (providing a magazine in multiple page format) is complex. There's a reason why professional magazines don't do it. Just try for yourself if you don't believe me... > BTW, you should maybe try redoing the EU flyers around some of our flyer > designs here. We do some pretty professional-looking flyers in the US. I didn't see that one coming :) Actually, most of the time i would use Inkscape for flyers, precisely because scalable documents are a dream if you have to deal with multiple formats... Anyway i'm interested by your scribus flyers, where can i find them ? -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: >> c) I am not pitching a fit to you. I am just discussing about trademarks >> issues, format possibilities and other questions that are raised by what >> you are asking > > Right, this started with you saying that you didn't want me using the > name "PostgreSQL Magazine" if I reformatted it US Letter. Just for the fun of it, I'll point out that the trademark in question (PostgreSQL) is owned by a Canadian. Where they use US Letter. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 6/9/2011 1:38 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > On 6/9/11 12:58 AM, damien clochard wrote: >> My intention is provide advocacy material to local user groups in the >> form of a classy and eye-catching magazine. I've been behind a >> PostgreSQL booth more than once, and i've always been disappointed by >> the quality of promotional leaflets and flyers we were giving. >> Especially compared to level of what you can find for other RDBMS booth. > Right, so you missed the point that the magazine needs to be easy/cheap > to print everywhere, or it doesn't get distributed at all. I think this is an unfortunate misstatement. Just because it doesn't get distributed in the states doesn't mean it doesn't get distributed at all. The Non-US community is much larger than the US Community. Also Electronic format is going to be by far, the preferred format for most people. > I'm not asking you to reformat the magazine as US Letter. I'm asking > you to allow others to do so, without pitching a fit that they're > messing up your magazine. And the reason I asked for a volunteer to > reformat is that my desire is to have a US Letter layout which looks as > good as the current A4 layout, rather than something which has huge > awkward margins and text shrunk 10%. 1. He is the one doing the work, if he wants to pitch a fit he can. 2. I haven't seen anything but a willingness to work with, for and about the community from Damien. I am not sure why you are responding this way. He has been very open about this magazine, this is not easy work. JD
On 09/06/2011 22:25, Christophe Pettus wrote: > > On Jun 9, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: > >> Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. >> I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on >> 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. > > Failing that, pretty much any major US stationary store carries A4 paper. You need to print on larger than the target size to have a bleed (images/colour running to the edge of the page) and the paper is then trimmed to size by the printer. Ray. -- Raymond O'Donnell :: Galway :: Ireland rod@iol.ie
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Raymond O'Donnell <rod@iol.ie> wrote: > On 09/06/2011 22:25, Christophe Pettus wrote: >> >> On Jun 9, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: >> >>> Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. >>> I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on >>> 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. >> >> Failing that, pretty much any major US stationary store carries A4 paper. > > You need to print on larger than the target size to have a bleed > (images/colour running to the edge of the page) and the paper is then > trimmed to size by the printer. > > Ray. yup. I'm also curious about how it will be bound. From what I can see, neither A4 nor Letter are ideal and won't give a magazine look. All that layout effort + print expense but in the end, you'll slam a staple in the upper left corner which is less than attractive/pro looking. To me, looks like the A4 should be set as A3 and the Ltr as Tabloid with 2 pages, side by side. Duplex, center fold & stitch. Page layout would be: 1<->24....2<->23 [duplex] etc. center fold, center stitch, then trim a bit. Each 'magazine' would be 6 sheets of paper vs current 12 (if duplexed/backed up). Whoever uses it should print one (grayscale) and rethink before they spend money on full color printing.
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Mike Ellsworth <younicycle@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Raymond O'Donnell <rod@iol.ie> wrote: >> On 09/06/2011 22:25, Christophe Pettus wrote: >>> >>> On Jun 9, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Mike Ellsworth wrote: >>> >>>> Is there a link to the pdf somewhere? Can't seem to locate. >>>> I'll run it and see if the A4 -> Letter really is a problem if run on >>>> 8.5 x 14, then trimmed. >>> >>> Failing that, pretty much any major US stationary store carries A4 paper. >> >> You need to print on larger than the target size to have a bleed >> (images/colour running to the edge of the page) and the paper is then >> trimmed to size by the printer. >> >> Ray. > > yup. I'm also curious about how it will be bound. From what I can > see, neither A4 nor Letter are ideal and won't give a magazine look. > All that layout effort + print expense but in the end, you'll slam a > staple in the upper left corner which is less than attractive/pro > looking. > To me, looks like the A4 should be set as A3 and the Ltr as Tabloid > with 2 pages, side by side. Duplex, center fold & stitch. Page layout > would be: > 1<->24....2<->23 [duplex] > etc. > center fold, center stitch, then trim a bit. > Each 'magazine' would be 6 sheets of paper vs current 12 (if > duplexed/backed up). > > Whoever uses it should print one (grayscale) and rethink before they > spend money on full color printing. The test copies I saw a few weeks back in Ottawa were done properly - duplex printed, center folded and stitched/stapled (I don't recall if they were printed full bleed, or if the design was such that it wasn't required). All credit to Damien and his team, it did look very good indeed. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
damien clochard wrote: > Le 09/06/2011 23:45, Josh Berkus a écrit : >> Damien, >> >>> They are free because the specific sponsor that you found requires US >>> Letter format. Maybe for the next issues, once we have an economic >>> model, then we will find sponsors that can pay for A4 format printing. >>> Do you think it's possible or am i daydreaming ? :-) >> It's possible, but you're *always* going to have a use for that $800 to >> $2000 you'd spend on printing if we could get it printed for free. >> Besides ... >> > > I understand perfectly but look at the situation the other way around : > if the magazine was in US Letter format, then the rest-of-the-world > would have to pay an expensive price to print it. From your point of > view, Letter format is cheaper. But from a global perspective it would > be more expensive. I used to work for a publishing company that had a printing unit. They are very close to where I live. Would there be any problem if I took a copy of the PDF to them to see they can print it folded and stapled as A4 size and what they would charge? Rod -- > > >>> I don't think that you can give this magazine just like you give away >>> leaflets or flyers. The magazine should be free, but not given to >>> everyone. I mean you don't give 24 pages of paper to a guy that will >>> throw it before the end of the day. >> Sure. But $7 each is on the same scale as a t-shirt. I'd like to get >> it down to $3 each (or free in the US). At that level, I can give one >> to every MIS or CTO or DBA I meet who is seriously interested in PostgreSQL. >> >> As an example, we had some nice PostgreSQL USB drives made. But they >> ended up costing us $8 each. Which we then couldn't justify giving out >> for free. As a result, we sat on them for over a year and didn't give >> *any* of them out. I'd like to avoid repeating that with the magazine. >> > > I've been there too :) My conclusion is that when we decide that some > goodies are free, then we should give them all out. Regardless how much > they cost. Like you said the worst thing is to sat on them... > > Afterwards you can judge that it was a "bad idea"(tm) and decide you > won't do it again. But during the booth i think it's better not to raise > such questions. That's just not the right place and time. > > >>> a) I am ok to reformat the magazine for you. I just said that i can't do >>> it before june 18th. Btw you never gave your deadline. >> Biggest deadline would be getting them printed in time for OSCON. June >> 18th would be in plenty of time for that. >> > > ok > >>> c) I am not pitching a fit to you. I am just discussing about trademarks >>> issues, format possibilities and other questions that are raised by what >>> you are asking >> Right, this started with you saying that you didn't want me using the >> name "PostgreSQL Magazine" if I reformatted it US Letter. >> > > What is said was : **if possible**, i **would like** that **any fork** > change their name. Then I repeated that it wasn't a strong opinion and > that i was ok if you don't follow my view. > > Call that "pitching a fit" if you want... :D > >>> Like i said, you can't have "easy + cheap + classy". At least for this >>> demo issue. For the next ones, we will try to ease format transformation. >>> >>> For now, if you want the US Letter version to be as good as the original >>> version, than each page needs to be revamped. This is not trivial. I >>> think it would take between 30 minutes and 2 hours. >> That actually sound pretty easy to me ... ah. You mean 2 hours per >> page? Huh. Seems like most of the pages would be easier than that, >> there's just a few with bleeds to edge which would be painful. >> >> Of course, I've never designed anything bigger than a flyer with >> Scribus, maybe it's really difficult to use. > > Scribus is not difficult. You would have the very same problem with > InDesign or Quark, really. Ask any layout editor you can find, the page > format is a key parameter. You don't jump from one to another like that. > > The problem we face here (providing a magazine in multiple page format) > is complex. There's a reason why professional magazines don't do it. > > Just try for yourself if you don't believe me... > >> BTW, you should maybe try redoing the EU flyers around some of our flyer >> designs here. We do some pretty professional-looking flyers in the US. > > I didn't see that one coming :) > > Actually, most of the time i would use Inkscape for flyers, precisely > because scalable documents are a dream if you have to deal with multiple > formats... Anyway i'm interested by your scribus flyers, where can i > find them ? > > >
Dimitri, > I understand perfectly but look at the situation the other way around : > if the magazine was in US Letter format, then the rest-of-the-world > would have to pay an expensive price to print it. From your point of > view, Letter format is cheaper. But from a global perspective it would > be more expensive. Oh, I think there's no way around having two formats if we want to distribute for full global access. We'll also have to re-do the layout for some of the translations; articles and headers will end up being significantly shorter or longer under certain languages (e.g. Japanese, Spanish). > I've been there too :) My conclusion is that when we decide that some > goodies are free, then we should give them all out. Regardless how much > they cost. Like you said the worst thing is to sat on them... Yeah, I'm just really excited about the magazine and would like to print 200 of them and give those all out at OSCON to people who are really interested in PostgreSQL. So I'm trying to make that affordable to do. >> Biggest deadline would be getting them printed in time for OSCON. June >> 18th would be in plenty of time for that. > ok And like I said, let's see if we can find a separate volunteer to do the US reformatting, rather than using your time. Last I checked, you were a consultant too. > What is said was : **if possible**, i **would like** that **any fork** > change their name. Then I repeated that it wasn't a strong opinion and > that i was ok if you don't follow my view. Given that you probably put in 60% of the time on the magazine (plus another 25% of the time by Greg Smith), as far as I'm concerned if you really don't want me to do something I won't do it. Which is why I'm trying to persuade you that it's a good idea. > The problem we face here (providing a magazine in multiple page format) > is complex. There's a reason why professional magazines don't do it. Professional magazines have to pay all of their staff, and are seldom using standard paper sizes regardless. > Just try for yourself if you don't believe me... Well, I know it's going to be hard for *me*, because I don't know scribus very well. > Actually, most of the time i would use Inkscape for flyers, precisely > because scalable documents are a dream if you have to deal with multiple > formats... Anyway i'm interested by your scribus flyers, where can i > find them ? Oh, the flyers are in a variety of formats. Like for "10 Reasons to Use PostgreSQL" one of the first tasks is to take it out of openoffice and re-do it in some real layout tool. The 8.4 flyers are Adobe. Etc. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 06/10/2011 06:51 AM, Dave Page wrote: > The test copies I saw a few weeks back in Ottawa were done properly - > duplex printed, center folded and stitched/stapled (I don't recall if > they were printed full bleed, or if the design was such that it wasn't > required). All credit to Damien and his team, it did look very good > indeed. > It does go all the way to the edges, so you either have to bleed over and cut or have something that prints without margins. As already alluded to, the real test of printing this thing out is to see if you can make the picture of Bruce among the elephants look right. In the print copies distributed, that fills the page. And since one of the corners is black, a margin would disrupt the look. With all this A4 vs. Letter discussion, one important detail may not have gotten enough emphasis. The print run at Ottawa was done onto a pair of A4 pages, stapled in the middle, and folded. The way the ISO units work, a pair of A4 pages together is actually an A3 page: 297 × 420 mm, 11.69 × 16.54 inches. So the target I see here is to reformat the pages onto 8.5x11, then print onto duplex 11x17; staple/fold, and you've duplicated the feel of the magazine. That is part of the reason why the "print on legal and trim" idea doesn't quite work. You'd get a bunch of individual pages that way, not the slickness of the true magazine style binding Damien accomplished. That's going to take a folded 11x17 to accomplish, because the way the thing is laid out you can't even bind it along the left edge without disrupting the design. (Some days I find it amusing how much of the PostgreSQL community are "do it right or not at all" perfectionists at *everything*, not just their software work) -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
damien clochard wrote: > > If we have to pay $7 each for copies > > of the magazine, we're going to be pretty reluctant to give them out. > > Which is the exact opposite of what I thought you wanted. > > Well it's not exactly what i want. > > I don't think that you can give this magazine just like you give away > leaflets or flyers. The magazine should be free, but not given to > everyone. I mean you don't give 24 pages of paper to a guy that will > throw it before the end of the day. > > To me, flyers and leaflet are "mass marketing" whereas the magazine > fills the need for "target marketing". For instance, you would give the > magazine to people that come to the booth with a bunch of questions, or > people who spend a little time chatting on the booth. It's not a reward > or anything like that... It's just a advocacy material aimed for smaller > but better audience > > In a nutshell, my goal is not print as many magazine as possible and > give them out to anybody. That would be a terrible waste of paper. I > prefer printing less copies, with a high-end look and feel, and give to > people that will actually read it. I think this is well said. Having a must-read magazine for Postgres is a big deal in generating more user loyalty. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. +
On 6/11/2011 1:50 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote: > >> In a nutshell, my goal is not print as many magazine as possible and >> give them out to anybody. That would be a terrible waste of paper. I >> prefer printing less copies, with a high-end look and feel, and give to >> people that will actually read it. > I think this is well said. Having a must-read magazine for Postgres is > a big deal in generating more user loyalty. +1 Joshua D. Drake
Le 10/06/2011 22:55, Greg Smith a écrit :
> On 06/10/2011 06:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>> The test copies I saw a few weeks back in Ottawa were done properly -
>> duplex printed, center folded and stitched/stapled (I don't recall if
>> they were printed full bleed, or if the design was such that it wasn't
>> required). All credit to Damien and his team, it did look very good
>> indeed.
>>
>
The issue #00 is full bleed. Like i said this is one of the things that
gives its "pro" look'n'feel
>
> With all this A4 vs. Letter discussion, one important detail may not
> have gotten enough emphasis. The print run at Ottawa was done onto a
> pair of A4 pages, stapled in the middle, and folded. The way the ISO
> units work, a pair of A4 pages together is actually an A3 page: 297 ×
> 420 mm, 11.69 × 16.54 inches. So the target I see here is to reformat
> the pages onto 8.5x11, then print onto duplex 11x17; staple/fold, and
> you've duplicated the feel of the magazine. That is part of the reason
> why the "print on legal and trim" idea doesn't quite work. You'd get a
> bunch of individual pages that way, not the slickness of the true
> magazine style binding Damien accomplished. That's going to take a
> folded 11x17 to accomplish, because the way the thing is laid out you
> can't even bind it along the left edge without disrupting the design.
>
Yes. Whatever the format, the fact that the magazine is full-bleed makes
it very hard to print for non-professional printers. It will require a
lot of pdf splitting, paper cutting, folding, etc.
Here's a quick'n dirty how to for people who want to print it by
themselves...
1. You need to buy A3+ paper. A3+ is slightly larger than A3 :
* A3 = 297 x 420 mm = 11.7 x 16.5 inches
* A3+ = 329 x 483 mm = 13 x 19 inches
2. You use pstops to "impose" the PDF on the A3 format. This will give
you a "prepress" A3 PDF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposition
http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/How_to_make_impositions_with_pstops
3. Print the A3 prepress PDF on the A3+ paper
4. Cut the A3+ printed paper to make it A3
5. Fold the A3 paper to make it A4
I don't know how that would work for Letter format, but i guess there's
some kind of "double-letter +" format available for professional
printing services. Except for the first point, the others steps would be
the same.
Anyway this can be done by non-professional printers but it's serious
work and any error will end up in a big amount of wasted paper.
--
damien clochard
dalibo.com | dalibo.org
On 06/14/2011 05:56 PM, damien clochard wrote: > 1. You need to buy A3+ paper. A3+ is slightly larger than A3 : > * A3 = 297 x 420 mm = 11.7 x 16.5 inches > * A3+ = 329 x 483 mm = 13 x 19 inches > ... > I don't know how that would work for Letter format, but i guess there's > some kind of "double-letter +" format available for professional > printing services. Except for the first point, the others steps would be > the same. > Interesting...there is a format here called "Super A3" that is essentially the same size: 330 x 483 mm; the rounding difference is so it can be 13 x 19". That size is normally used here for poster printing. If that's the production process you used for the magazines we've seen, it would be possible to duplicate it at a US printer who handles Super A3 size duplex printing with bleed trimming--without any changes to your file at all. The 1mm differences should get lost in the trimming. 13x19" duplex printing with trim isn't popular here, given it's mainly a single-sized poster format. But it's possible one of the volunteer printing services Josh was talking about might do that. It's a different approach to the problem than has been considered so far, that's for sure. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
Greg, > 13x19" duplex printing with trim isn't popular here, given it's mainly a > single-sized poster format. But it's possible one of the volunteer > printing services Josh was talking about might do that. It's a > different approach to the problem than has been considered so far, > that's for sure. Already asked, or I wouldn't have got into this discussion in the first place. If we want to use European sizes, we're stuck paying $6 to $9 per copy of the magazine to print them in this country. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 08/06/2011 03:57, Josh Berkus a écrit : > All, > > Can someone please take on re-formatting this magazine in US paper > sizes? I'd like to get a bunch printed for OSCON and the other US > conferences. > hi ! I've done the A4 -> Letter transformation. FTR, it took me 90 minutes overall. However i did it in quick-and-dirty mode, so you might want to review each page one by one to check that everything is ok. The source file is here : https://github.com/daamien/pgmag/blob/master/src/00/issue-00.english.usletter.sla The PDF exports are there : http://pgmag.org/_media/00/issue-00.english.usletter.300dpi.nobleed.pdf http://pgmag.org/_media/00/issue-00.english.usletter.300dpi.bleed.pdf There's two versions because in order to print in "full bleed", some printing services need the bleed information and some don't... Most of them should be able to handle both versions, though. In the meantime, i released a "screen" version of the magazine, as lots of readers were wondering why the PDF was so big (78MB). At first, i thought i would do one single PDF for all, but now it seems clear that there should be different types of PDF exports. You can see them all at : http://pgmag.org/00/download Once again thanks for reading the demo issue and for the feedback. Work on the issue #01 might start in a few days, stay tuned ! -- damien clochard dalibo.com | dalibo.org
Damien, > I've done the A4 -> Letter transformation. FTR, it took me 90 minutes > overall. However i did it in quick-and-dirty mode, so you might want > to > review each page one by one to check that everything is ok. > I'll review these once I get back from portland. Unless, of course, some enterprising design geek on this list wants totake on tweaking them and cleaning them up. We'll get lots printed for OSCON! --Josh