Thread: IMPORTANT: A temporary list for Strategic Marketing

Folks,

Rob Napier and his company have been trying to use this list to get our
feedback on developing a cohesive "marketing message."   Unfortunately, this
week the list has been consumed by tangents and Rob has indicated that his
team does not have time to sift through.  We are in danger of losing some
very valuable help from a professional marketing company.

Marc, I would like to set up a list a marketplan@postgresql.org.   This list
will be used strictly for discussion of our "sales message" and "marketing
materials", with no tangents or general discussion.   OK with everyone?

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

>Marc, I would like to set up a list a marketplan@postgresql.org.   This list
>will be used strictly for discussion of our "sales message" and "marketing
>materials", with no tangents or general discussion.   OK with everyone?
>
>
>
O.k. hear. Advocacy can be so many different things... a directed list would
be useful in this instance IMHO.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake






--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Marc, I would like to set up a list a marketplan@postgresql.org.
> This list will be used strictly for discussion of our "sales message"
> and "marketing materials", with no tangents or general discussion.
> OK with everyone?

There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
discussed on -advocacy, what is?

Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions, don't
read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.

Peter,

> There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
> either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
> lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
> discussed on -advocacy, what is?

Since Monday, there have been 117 messages on Advocacy, of which about 65
consisted of tangents around copyright infringement and MySQL.  Further,
Rob's thread was diverted into a discussion of Knoppix CDs, making it
impossible for him to filter by thread.  Looking at my personal copy of the
archives, this is typical rather than exceptional behavior.

I'm not willing to exercise draconian moderation on the Advocacy list -- I'm
out of the office too much, and discussion would halt.

Since Rob is offering his company's professional services *as a donation*, he
is entitled to put conditions on that donation.   The alternative to setting
up a temporary list would be for him to deal with me only, and I don't think
you'd prefer that.

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

>There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
>either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
>lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
>discussed on -advocacy, what is?
>
>
I disagree whole heartedly. If you look at general, it is basically
PostgreSQL-Support.
It is not a place to go for general discussion about postgresql.

>Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions, don't
>read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.
>
>
This is an extremely negative approach to a very positive offer for
help. A lot
of people don't have the time to wade through different threads. They want
to talk about something specific and see results.

Personally I haven't see any offtopic posts however, considering that this
gentlement is probably taking time out of his money making day to donate
a considerable service (time wise, and financially) ... We should take
reasonable
measures to insure that he is provided the tools he needs to provide
that service.

If the postgresql community doesn't agree, I will happily setup a list
today for the
discussion.


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Since Rob is offering his company's professional services *as a
> donation*, he is entitled to put conditions on that donation.   The
> alternative to setting up a temporary list would be for him to deal
> with me only, and I don't think you'd prefer that.

Well, what do you try to achieve?  Either you moderate/restrict the
forum, then you get your peace, and no one will pay attention to your
work.  Or you want to develop something for the public with the public,
then you need to deal with the fact that the public is large, has
different ideas, and wants to discuss those ideas.  Do you think that
will be different on a "marketing message" list?  I don't see how.

Again, if you're not interested in everything that goes on here, don't
read the threads that are not addressed to you.  (Modern mail readers
can help.)  But how are you going to develop a "marketing message" if
you don't listen to everybody?  And if people think that a knoppix CD
would be a good means to drive the marketing message to the end user,
we should listen to that.

Rob needs to come to terms with the fact that the PostgreSQL community
is large and diverse.  You can't resolve issues that are as central as
a marketing message in a quiet chamber and have everyone take it
serious at the end.  This is not the way open-source software works.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> I disagree whole heartedly. If you look at general, it is basically
> PostgreSQL-Support.
> It is not a place to go for general discussion about postgresql.

But it should be.

> >Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions,
> > don't read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.
>
> This is an extremely negative approach to a very positive offer for
> help.

No, it is a practical advice for someone who is new around here.  Just
because you subscribe to a mailing list, doesn't mean you have to read
everything.

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Peter,
>
> > There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
> > either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
> > lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
> > discussed on -advocacy, what is?
>
> Since Monday, there have been 117 messages on Advocacy, of which about 65
> consisted of tangents around copyright infringement and MySQL.  Further,
> Rob's thread was diverted into a discussion of Knoppix CDs, making it
> impossible for him to filter by thread.  Looking at my personal copy of the
> archives, this is typical rather than exceptional behavior.
>
> I'm not willing to exercise draconian moderation on the Advocacy list -- I'm
> out of the office too much, and discussion would halt.
>
> Since Rob is offering his company's professional services *as a donation*, he
> is entitled to put conditions on that donation.   The alternative to setting
> up a temporary list would be for him to deal with me only, and I don't think
> you'd prefer that.

They are using the advocacy list so they can reach lots of people in the
discussion, but they don't want to read stuff that doesn't relate to
them.  Mailing lists don't work that way so I see no purpose of creating
a new one that is to discuss only things _they_ are interested in.

If you want, ask who is interested in their topic and just send an email
with everyone in CC and have people keep the CC intact.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> >There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
> >either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
> >lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
> >discussed on -advocacy, what is?
> >
> >
> I disagree whole heartedly. If you look at general, it is basically
> PostgreSQL-Support.
> It is not a place to go for general discussion about postgresql.
>
> >Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions, don't
> >read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.
> >
> >
> This is an extremely negative approach to a very positive offer for
> help. A lot
> of people don't have the time to wade through different threads. They want
> to talk about something specific and see results.
>
> Personally I haven't see any offtopic posts however, considering that this
> gentlement is probably taking time out of his money making day to donate
> a considerable service (time wise, and financially) ... We should take
> reasonable
> measures to insure that he is provided the tools he needs to provide
> that service.
>
> If the postgresql community doesn't agree, I will happily setup a list
> today for the
> discussion.

Fine, set up something privately to discuss only their issues, and ask
who want to be on the list, but it isn't for PostgreSQL "marketing", it
is for these folks alone, and they will lose the larger audience of
advocacy.  They have to understand that large audience means more
off-topic posts.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Friday 09 January 2004 01:18 pm, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Since Monday, there have been 117 messages on Advocacy, of which about 65
> consisted of tangents around copyright infringement and MySQL.  Further,
> Rob's thread was diverted into a discussion of Knoppix CDs, making it
> impossible for him to filter by thread.  Looking at my personal copy of the
> archives, this is typical rather than exceptional behavior.

Thread hijacking is far too common.

> Since Rob is offering his company's professional services *as a donation*,
> he is entitled to put conditions on that donation.   The alternative to
> setting up a temporary list would be for him to deal with me only, and I
> don't think you'd prefer that.

Your subject line says temporary.  I could live with that; but I tend to agree
that it _IS_ what advocacy is for.  The posters just need to be more
disciplined in not hijacking threads.  But it happens everywhere.  It will
happen on the marketplan mailing list, too, once enough people subscribe,
unless thorough education of list posters is made along with active
moderation.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC  28772
(828)862-5554
www.pari.edu

Peter,

> Well, what do you try to achieve?

Well, I think that's what's at issue here.   Rob wants some feedback from us
on what the thrust of our printed materials should be so that he can help us
develop some.   He's not really interested in organizing the community;
that's my job and yours.

Not everyone who wants to contribute to PostgreSQL is willing to operate an
industrial-strength mail client.   Nor should they be required to, or we
restrict ourselves to only contributions from a subset of our users.

So, either we hash this out here without CC'ing Rob and get back to him in a
week or so; or we take it to a seperate forum where tangents will be
prohibited so that Rob can have a level of participation which he has time
for.  I take it you'd prefer the former approach?

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

\

Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions,
don't read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.     

This is an extremely negative approach to a very positive offer for
help.   

No, it is a practical advice for someone who is new around here.  Just 
because you subscribe to a mailing list, doesn't mean you have to read 
everything. 

As JoshB already pointed out... this doesn't already work when topics change midstream but the
thread subject stays the same.

Have you ever been part of a project team? Project teams are not large... Look at PostgreSQL,
the actual core team for PostgreSQL is less than what? 12-15 members?

There is no reason why a temporary list shouldn't be created for a small project like this. It will
allow a more direct approach to getting things done.  Of course there should be milestones
and generalized points that are reached where further communication is provided to the community
for comment (RFC) but this guy probably has little time to waste dealing with a bunch of geeks
who want to throw their two cents in every time they get an itch.

Allowing for the list will create the ability for the PostgreSQL list to see direct and reasonably
immediate results to an advocacy opportunity.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> There is no reason why a temporary list shouldn't be created for a
> small project like this. It will
> allow a more direct approach to getting things done.  Of course there
> should be milestones
> and generalized points that are reached where further communication
> is provided to the community
> for comment (RFC) but this guy probably has little time to waste
> dealing with a bunch of geeks
> who want to throw their two cents in every time they get an itch.

Welcome to open-source development.  It can be a nuisance at times, but
I think it has shown to yield good, maybe even better, results
eventually.

should be milestones

and generalized points that are reached where further communication
is provided to the community
for comment (RFC) but this guy probably has little time to waste
dealing with a bunch of geeks
who want to throw their two cents in every time they get an itch.   

Welcome to open-source development.  It can be a nuisance at times, but 
I think it has shown to yield good, maybe even better, results 
eventually. 

I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are not talking about DEVELOPMENT.
We are talking about MARKETING.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are
> not talking about DEVELOPMENT.
> We are talking about MARKETING.

I believe that the ideas of open-source software do not only apply to
writing the software itself.  The key aspects of open source,
scalability, quality, freedom, community, apply to all aspects of the
project.  Of course, there can be project teams or discussions behind
closed doors, but that doesn't change the overall idea of running
things in public.

I know that in this case no one was actually planning to do anything in
secret, but participants need to understand that this is a public
project and everyone will have an opinion -- not only on the software,
but on everything that goes on around it -- and is entitled to voice
it.

If people cannot deal with that -- and that is perfectly understandable
-- then they have two options:

(a) present us with facts and hope we accept them without many
arguments, or

(b) let us work out the details and tell them what to do.

The option proposed here,

(c) briefly divert everyone's attention to have a focussed discussion

does not work very well. :-)

Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Friday 09 January 2004 01:18 pm, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Since Monday, there have been 117 messages on Advocacy, of which about 65
> > consisted of tangents around copyright infringement and MySQL.  Further,
> > Rob's thread was diverted into a discussion of Knoppix CDs, making it
> > impossible for him to filter by thread.  Looking at my personal copy of the
> > archives, this is typical rather than exceptional behavior.
>
> Thread hijacking is far too common.
>
> > Since Rob is offering his company's professional services *as a donation*,
> > he is entitled to put conditions on that donation.   The alternative to
> > setting up a temporary list would be for him to deal with me only, and I
> > don't think you'd prefer that.
>
> Your subject line says temporary.  I could live with that; but I tend to agree
> that it _IS_ what advocacy is for.  The posters just need to be more
> disciplined in not hijacking threads.  But it happens everywhere.  It will
> happen on the marketplan mailing list, too, once enough people subscribe,
> unless thorough education of list posters is made along with active
> moderation.

Why don't we just CC them for specific threads.  I don't care whether
they are voluteering or not, we all are, so why do they get a special
list and attention?

If they subscribe to advocacy with 'nomail', then can post but will not
receive any email that doesn't have them on the CC.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Marc, I would like to set up a list a marketplan@postgresql.org.
> > This list will be used strictly for discussion of our "sales message"
> > and "marketing materials", with no tangents or general discussion.
> > OK with everyone?
>
> There shouldn't be any tangents or general discussion on -advocacy
> either -- that's what -general is for.  A one-time incident should not
> lead to such drastic measures.  If the marketing plan is no longer
> discussed on -advocacy, what is?
>
> Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions, don't
> read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.

I kinda have to agree with Peter on this ... I'll create the other list if
needed, but fear it will have a negative effect by splitting things up too
much ... if ppl were to make sure that they change the subject if a
tangent happens, then those that aren't interested can avoid it, but there
really isn't *that* much traffic here, IMHO, to warrant "yet another list"
:(


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > I disagree whole heartedly. If you look at general, it is basically
> > PostgreSQL-Support.
> > It is not a place to go for general discussion about postgresql.
>
> But it should be.

Again, agreed ... "support" stuff should be directed to appropriate lists.
ie. -sql, -performance, -admin, -ports, etc ... the problem is that when
someone posts to -general, nobody takes the time to re-direct subsequent
messages to the more appropriate lists ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

josh@agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) writes:
> Peter,
>
>> Well, what do you try to achieve?
>
> Well, I think that's what's at issue here.  Rob wants some feedback
> from us on what the thrust of our printed materials should be so
> that he can help us develop some.  He's not really interested in
> organizing the community; that's my job and yours.

Do we have a concrete document that we'd like to "clean up" for
release?

If we do, I would be more than happy to take a look at it and make
some notes as to suggested changes.  (URLs are fine...)

If we don't, then "job #1" is probably to come up with a draft, and
circulate it to some interested folks...
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="libertyrms.info" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];;
<http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/>
Christopher Browne
(416) 646 3304 x124 (land)

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Peter,
>
> > Well, what do you try to achieve?
>
> Well, I think that's what's at issue here.   Rob wants some feedback from us
> on what the thrust of our printed materials should be so that he can help us
> develop some.   He's not really interested in organizing the community;
> that's my job and yours.
>
> Not everyone who wants to contribute to PostgreSQL is willing to operate an
> industrial-strength mail client.   Nor should they be required to, or we
> restrict ourselves to only contributions from a subset of our users.
>
> So, either we hash this out here without CC'ing Rob and get back to him in a
> week or so; or we take it to a seperate forum where tangents will be
> prohibited so that Rob can have a level of participation which he has time
> for.  I take it you'd prefer the former approach?

I prefer the former also ... if all he wants is a "summary" of opinions,
give him that summary ... but I think we as a community will lose if we
great yet another mailing list just for the purposes of discussing one
aspect of advocacy ...

As for 'heavy duty mail readers' ... I run pine, and with about 3 key
strokes, I can setup a filter that ignores a particulary subject/thread
... unless Rob is using the 'mail' command from the Unix shell, there is
probably some sort of filtering capability he can use ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> \
>
> >>>Incidentally, if you're not interested in off-topic discussions,
> >>>don't read them.  Follow the threads that interest you.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>This is an extremely negative approach to a very positive offer for
> >>help.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >No, it is a practical advice for someone who is new around here.  Just
> >because you subscribe to a mailing list, doesn't mean you have to read
> >everything.
> >
> >
> As JoshB already pointed out... this doesn't already work when topics
> change midstream but the
> thread subject stays the same.

And what have you done to remedy this?  I know I try and change the
subject whenever I find a tangent happening, even if I'm not the first to
create the tangent ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are not
> talking about DEVELOPMENT. We are talking about MARKETING.

And that is different how ... ?

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are not
talking about DEVELOPMENT. We are talking about MARKETING.   

And that is different how ... ? 

You are kidding right?

Sincerely,


Joshua D. Drake

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings 

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

[ new subject :-) ]

Christopher Browne wrote:
> > Well, I think that's what's at issue here.  Rob wants some feedback
> > from us on what the thrust of our printed materials should be so
> > that he can help us develop some.  He's not really interested in
> > organizing the community; that's my job and yours.
>
> Do we have a concrete document that we'd like to "clean up" for
> release?
>
> If we do, I would be more than happy to take a look at it and make
> some notes as to suggested changes.  (URLs are fine...)

Here

http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/marketing/pgflyer_v05.pdf

is the one we distributed at LinuxWorld Frankfurt.  (This is not the
final version, there are some small flaws in it, but you get the idea.
English is on page 2.)  It was already floated in October, so some of
you might recognize it.

This one went very well with the visitors (possibly because it was a
rip-off of the popular Debian flyer).  The left side has marketing
points, the right side is more technical.  And it has sort of a
"corporate look".

I appreciate any opinions or suggestions.  In particular I'd like to
know what you think what the next step after this one should be for the
next expositions (bigger flyers, smaller flyers, multiple-page
brochures, stickers, pins, CDs, ...).

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
> >>I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are not
> >>talking about DEVELOPMENT. We are talking about MARKETING.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >And that is different how ... ?
> >
> >
> You are kidding right?

Not at all ... this is an open source, community project ... you are
proposing (or, at least, that is how I'm reading things), that Marketing
should somehow be done differently the the development of the code itself
is done ... Peter, Bruce and I are all saying pretty much the same thing
(again, as I'm reading things) in that Marketing should be planned/worked
on no differently the the code itself, in an open, community manner ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> >
> > >>I have been doing open source development for a long time but we are not
> > >>talking about DEVELOPMENT. We are talking about MARKETING.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >And that is different how ... ?
> > >
> > >
> > You are kidding right?
>
> Not at all ... this is an open source, community project ... you are
> proposing (or, at least, that is how I'm reading things), that Marketing
> should somehow be done differently the the development of the code itself
> is done ... Peter, Bruce and I are all saying pretty much the same thing
> (again, as I'm reading things) in that Marketing should be planned/worked
> on no differently the the code itself, in an open, community manner ...

Let me throw in that I am subscribed to the DBI mailing list just for
DBD:pg, so I have to read other message that don't relate ot DBDpg, and
it is kind of a pain.  Fortunately, there is _very_ little traffic, and
PG probably counts for 1/3rd of it, so it isn't that bad, but it is a
similar case where I getting email I have no interest in just in case a
DBD:pg item comes up.  Seems these guys are in the same boat, wanting to
do a focused marketing thing but not interested in the other stuff.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

You are kidding right?   

Not at all ... this is an open source, community project ... you are
proposing (or, at least, that is how I'm reading things), that Marketing
should somehow be done differently the the development of the code itself
is done ... Peter, Bruce and I are all saying pretty much the same thing
(again, as I'm reading things) in that Marketing should be planned/worked
on no differently the the code itself, in an open, community manner ...
 

1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.
2. I am not suggesting in any way that this be a closed thing. I am suggesting that we provided a directed
venue for communication for this project (the project of the flyers, etc..). I am suggesting that we allow
a specific avenue for the communication, that doesn't deviate from that direction. And actually JoshB
is suggesting it, I just agree with him.

Remember all those recent threads about MySQL and their marketing prowess... this is what we are
talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't happen on the frito-lay crumbs of a developers desk. It happens
in rooms with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.

As a community process we don't have the MySQL funding, offices, ties etc... What we do have is the
technical capability to provide an on-topic list that is directed at a particular subject for a temporary portion
of time to allow something to get done. Again, with review of course from the community but without
all the white-noise.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664 

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> 1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.

Why do you say that?  I think everyone on this list is interested in
marketing (or they would not be here), and all the people involved in
this thread have already done a fair share of work for that.

> Remember all those recent threads about MySQL and their marketing
> prowess... this is what we are
> talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't happen on the frito-lay crumbs
> of a developers desk. It happens
> in rooms with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.

The MySQL development process is also different from ours, so why can't
the marketing process be different as well?

Isn't marketing about good people running the booths? What kind of
expertise is out there to training cracker-jack salesmen?

The social engineering aspect strikes me as being very important.



Peter Eisentraut wrote:

>I appreciate any opinions or suggestions.  In particular I'd like to
>know what you think what the next step after this one should be for the
>next expositions (bigger flyers, smaller flyers, multiple-page
>brochures, stickers, pins, CDs, ...).
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
>
>
>
>

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> 1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.

Ah, so we have no opinions on the matter?

> 2. I am not suggesting in any way that this be a closed thing. I am
> suggesting that we provided a directed venue for communication for this
> project (the project of the flyers, etc..). I am suggesting that we
> allow a specific avenue for the communication, that doesn't deviate from
> that direction. And actually JoshB is suggesting it, I just agree with
> him.

But, that was what was -advocay was created for in the first place ... a
directed venue for talkign about all things related to advocacy ... if
those on the list can't change subjects as appropriate, that isnt' going
to change if we create a sublist for each and every sub-project of
advocacy ...

> Remember all those recent threads about MySQL and their marketing
> prowess... this is what we are talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't
> happen on the frito-lay crumbs of a developers desk. It happens in rooms
> with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.

and this is why marketing discussions aren't meant for -hackers, and why
we created -advocacy ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

Joshua D. Drake wrote: 

1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.   

Why do you say that?  I think everyone on this list is interested in 
marketing (or they would not be here), and all the people involved in 
this thread have already done a fair share of work for that.
 

I think you are missing my point. You by trade (I believe) are a developer. I by trade am
a Consultant. Ron (I think that was his name) by trade is a marketing guy. That does not
mean that each person can not deliver valid information to the project but it does mean
we all think and process a little different.

Personally, I like to hack, but I do not like to progam. Thus I hire programmers to service
my customers long term programming needs. I like to sell, but can't stand the sales process. Thus I have
a salesman to handle that.

Each person has a particular talent that they are strong in. I have yet to meet a person who's
strong suit is marketing/sales that could handle the amount of divergance that happens on a
mailing list, including my own salesman.

That is why I think that a directed list, temporarily will provide a boon to productivity to the
overall project.

prowess... this is what we are
talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't happen on the frito-lay crumbs
of a developers desk. It happens
in rooms with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.   

The MySQL development process is also different from ours, so why can't 
the marketing process be different as well?
 

It is already different in that we are marketing a project not a product. Yes a product comes from
the resulting project but there is no money incentive. At least not directly. All I am saying is that
marketing people are better at marketing and those people have a certain way they do things and
that developers are better at developing and they have their way of doing things. In short we should
be respectful and open to each way.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
              http://archives.postgresql.org 

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 

1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.   

Ah, so we have no opinions on the matter?
 

I never said, or suggested that.

project (the project of the flyers, etc..). I am suggesting that we
allow a specific avenue for the communication, that doesn't deviate from
that direction. And actually JoshB is suggesting it, I just agree with
him.   

But, that was what was -advocay was created for in the first place ... a
directed venue for talkign about all things related to advocacy ... if
those on the list can't change subjects as appropriate, that isnt' going 

Yes but we aren't really talking about advocacy globally here... I think you are thinking too big picture.
We are talking about a relatively small piece of informaiton to get hammered out for presentation to
the community.

When someone is creating and RFC, they don't go onto a list and say:

Hey I am thinking about making a green lightbulb.. What do you think?

They take time, and typically a small number of people who are interested and develop a document
and REQUEST FOR COMMENTS on it.

That at least from I read is what JoshB is trying to do. He is trying to make it so the person trying to
help has an adequate voice within the paradigm. Not everyone on this list is going to contribute to that
project but if they were really interested they could join the list for discussions on that project.

to change if we create a sublist for each and every sub-project of
advocacy ...
 

Remember all those recent threads about MySQL and their marketing
prowess... this is what we are talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't
happen on the frito-lay crumbs of a developers desk. It happens in rooms
with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.   

and this is why marketing discussions aren't meant for -hackers, and why
we created -advocacy ... 

And why we should consider a temporary list for this part of advocacy.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster 

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> >Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> >
> >>1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Why do you say that?  I think everyone on this list is interested in
> >marketing (or they would not be here), and all the people involved in
> >this thread have already done a fair share of work for that.
> >
> >
> >
> I think you are missing my point. You by trade (I believe) are a
> developer. I by trade am
> a Consultant. Ron (I think that was his name) by trade is a marketing
> guy. That does not
> mean that each person can not deliver valid information to the project
> but it does mean
> we all think and process a little different.
>
> Personally, I like to hack, but I do not like to progam. Thus I hire
> programmers to service
> my customers long term programming needs. I like to sell, but can't
> stand the sales process. Thus I have
> a salesman to handle that.
>
> Each person has a particular talent that they are strong in. I have yet
> to meet a person who's
> strong suit is marketing/sales that could handle the amount of
> divergance that happens on a
> mailing list, including my own salesman.
>
> That is why I think that a directed list, temporarily will provide a
> boon to productivity to the
> overall project.

But what you argue above leaves that 'directed list' as being only Ron,
since the rest of us aren't "marketers" ... wouldn't it just be simpler
for Ron to email himself directly then?

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> When someone is creating and RFC, they don't go onto a list and say:
>
> Hey I am thinking about making a green lightbulb.. What do you think?

Actually, I'm on an RFC mailing list right now, and ya, that is what they
do ...

> And why we should consider a temporary list for this part of advocacy.

And then do we create a list for those dealing with PHPCon, and one for
Linuxworld, and one for ... the one in Germany that Peter generally
organizes, and ... pretty soon, each lists traffic will be down to a
couple of messages a month and be pretty much useless, cause everyone that
is interested will subscribe to those lists also ...

What JoshB is effectively proposing, and what I am against, is moderating
the discussion on a list by creating a seperate list to move it to ...
instead of educating (and enforcing) the creating of seperate threads for
tangents to discussions, including changing the subjects so that ppl that
aren't interested in that thread don't have to do more then glance at the
subject ...



----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

> Yes marketing men are a bit different. They don't think like a
> developer or a consultant.
>
> Just a question :
> If you do this temporary list, who decide of the contains of the work ?
> Only the subscribers of this temporary list.
> And none of the advocacy list (ie developer, consultant, syst eng,
> ...) who do postgres ?
> In this case developers cannot decide want they put in postgres only
> marketing decides this.
>
No. Any developer or community member is welcome to subscribe to the
list that is interested. The point is
that the discussion would be completely focused on that particular list.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

That is why I think that a directed list, temporarily will provide a
boon to productivity to the
overall project.   

But what you argue above leaves that 'directed list' as being only Ron,
since the rest of us aren't "marketers" ... wouldn't it just be simpler
for Ron to email himself directly then? 

No. What I am arguing is by have the directed/moderated list. Ron only has to worry about the
messages on that list because only those messages will be pertinent to what he is trying to do for us.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664 

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

People:

It sounds like a lot of people are unhappy with the idea of a temporary list.
But Rob is not going to re-subscribe to this list -- there is too much
traffic, and it's too difficult to filter meaningfully without reading
everything.

Marc's suggestion about "training people to have better list ettiquette" was
very amusing since he had participated in a thread hijack not an hour earlier
on this list.  Marc, it's not gonna happen, it's not realistic to expect
people to change their list behavior short of full list moderation ... which
will be a lot of work for one person and will irritate a lot of other people.

I do think that our chronic lack of focussed discussions on this list is
certainly not helping move PostgreSQL advocacy forwards.

So, therefore: we will hash out the "sales message" issues on this list, and
then I will forward a summary to Rob.  OK with everyone?

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

> People:
>
> It sounds like a lot of people are unhappy with the idea of a temporary list.
> But Rob is not going to re-subscribe to this list -- there is too much
> traffic, and it's too difficult to filter meaningfully without reading
> everything.
>
> Marc's suggestion about "training people to have better list ettiquette" was
> very amusing since he had participated in a thread hijack not an hour earlier
> on this list.

Agreed, we are all as guilty as the next :(

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
> > Yes marketing men are a bit different. They don't think like a
> > developer or a consultant.
> >
> > Just a question :
> > If you do this temporary list, who decide of the contains of the work ?
> > Only the subscribers of this temporary list.
> > And none of the advocacy list (ie developer, consultant, syst eng,
> > ...) who do postgres ?
> > In this case developers cannot decide want they put in postgres only
> > marketing decides this.
> >
> No. Any developer or community member is welcome to subscribe to the
> list that is interested. The point is
> that the discussion would be completely focused on that particular list.

Until it tangents because someone brings up something they thing is
relevant but nobody else does ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
<snip>
> Until it tangents because someone brings up something they thing is
> relevant but nobody else does ...

This is, I think a very good point.  Creating another list does not solve
the problem unless the moderator wants to approve each and every post, and
even then discussions can wander.

I have what I believe to be a better solution.  Why doesn;t everybody who
wants to help Ron out email him personally and CC the list?  Help Ron to
subscribe with nomail option, and then his discussion comes through but he
is not burdoned with others.  This way the discussion is still here but
Ron's needs are also met.

My $0.02 worth.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

On Saturday 10 January 2004 05:38, Josh Berkus wrote:
> I do think that our chronic lack of focussed discussions on this list is
> certainly not helping move PostgreSQL advocacy forwards.

That remains debatable but let's not get into that.

> So, therefore: we will hash out the "sales message" issues on this list,
> and then I will forward a summary to Rob.  OK with everyone?

I would suggest we assing point of contact for each major commercial helper.
That way it would channel the efforts as appropriate and would not expose a
commercial entitty to create chaos that such lists are.

What say?

 Shridhar

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you say that?  I think everyone on this list is interested in
>> marketing (or they would not be here), and all the people involved in
>> this thread have already done a fair share of work for that.
>>
>>
>>
> I think you are missing my point. You by trade (I believe) are a
> developer. I by trade am
> a Consultant. Ron (I think that was his name) by trade is a marketing
> guy. That does not
> mean that each person can not deliver valid information to the project
> but it does mean
> we all think and process a little different.
>
> Personally, I like to hack, but I do not like to progam. Thus I hire
> programmers to service
> my customers long term programming needs. I like to sell, but can't
> stand the sales process. Thus I have
> a salesman to handle that.
>
Yes marketing men are a bit different. They don't think like a developer
or a consultant.

Just a question :
If you do this temporary list, who decide of the contains of the work ?
Only the subscribers of this temporary list.
And none of the advocacy list (ie developer, consultant, syst eng, ...)
who do postgres ?
In this case developers cannot decide want they put in postgres only
marketing decides this.

I think everyone in advocacy list must see what the marketing think even
if it is not very easy to take only threads you want.

> Each person has a particular talent that they are strong in. I have
> yet to meet a person who's
> strong suit is marketing/sales that could handle the amount of
> divergance that happens on a
> mailing list, including my own salesman.
>
> That is why I think that a directed list, temporarily will provide a
> boon to productivity to the
> overall project.
>
>
>>> prowess... this is what we are
>>> talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't happen on the frito-lay crumbs
>>> of a developers desk. It happens
>>> in rooms with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.
>>>
>>
>>
>> The MySQL development process is also different from ours, so why
>> can't the marketing process be different as well?
>>
>>
>>
> It is already different in that we are marketing a project not a
> product. Yes a product comes from
> the resulting project but there is no money incentive. At least not
> directly. All I am saying is that
> marketing people are better at marketing and those people have a
> certain way they do things and
> that developers are better at developing and they have their way of
> doing things. In short we should
> be respectful and open to each way.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>>
>>               http://archives.postgresql.org
>>
>>
>
>

--
Bruno LEVEQUE
System Engineer
SARL NET6D
bruno.leveque@net6d.com
http://www.net6d.com

Hey, fair go mate!

I hold a degree in Electronic Engineering, postgrad diploma in Computer Science, Masters Degree in Biomedical Physics, majoring in Computer Aided Tomography. I wrote my first compiler and multi-task operating system back in the sixties. I was a pioneer in local area networking in the seventies. I've solved design flaws in both the airframe and flight systems of the F-111C strike aircraft and now run an international software company. Most of our software was written by me and I had my hand in the developing the rest.

OK, I am a little out of touch with some current technology but I am catching up fast.

I can't abide elitists of any kind, be they technical or marketing. I have wasted enough time on this. If you ever manage to figure out what you want, email me. For now, I am bowing out of your list with a clear conscience that I have done my best to help you.

Some of you guys are your own worst enemy. Sad really because I believe your heart is in the right place but your high-octane egos and a fair smattering of self-importance is preventing you from achieving what you should.

Best of luck.


Rob Napier
CEO

Cormoran Communication Pty Ltd
65 Upper Paper Mills Road
Fyansford  VIC  3221  Australia
Ph:  011 61 3 5222 6999
Fax: 011 61 3 5222 3633

It’s about time.

Email      rob@trafficofficemanager.com
Web        http://www.trafficofficemanager.com


On 10/1/04 10:23 AM, "Bruno LEVEQUE" <bruno.leveque@net6d.com> wrote:

>
>
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>>
>>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>> 1. Yet none of you are marketers. You are developers.
>>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you say that?  I think everyone on this list is interested in
>>> marketing (or they would not be here), and all the people involved in
>>> this thread have already done a fair share of work for that.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>> I think you are missing my point. You by trade (I believe) are a
>> developer. I by trade am
>> a Consultant. Ron (I think that was his name) by trade is a marketing
>> guy. That does not
>> mean that each person can not deliver valid information to the project
>> but it does mean
>> we all think and process a little different.
>>
>> Personally, I like to hack, but I do not like to progam. Thus I hire
>> programmers to service
>> my customers long term programming needs. I like to sell, but can't
>> stand the sales process. Thus I have
>> a salesman to handle that.
>>
> Yes marketing men are a bit different. They don't think like a developer
> or a consultant.
>
> Just a question :
> If you do this temporary list, who decide of the contains of the work ?
> Only the subscribers of this temporary list.
> And none of the advocacy list (ie developer, consultant, syst eng, ...)
> who do postgres ?
> In this case developers cannot decide want they put in postgres only
> marketing decides this.
>
> I think everyone in advocacy list must see what the marketing think even
> if it is not very easy to take only threads you want.
>
>> Each person has a particular talent that they are strong in. I have
>> yet to meet a person who's
>> strong suit is marketing/sales that could handle the amount of
>> divergance that happens on a
>> mailing list, including my own salesman.
>>
>> That is why I think that a directed list, temporarily will provide a
>> boon to productivity to the
>> overall project.
>>
>>
>>>> prowess... this is what we are
>>>> talking about. MySQL marketing doesn't happen on the frito-lay crumbs
>>>> of a developers desk. It happens
>>>> in rooms with whiteboards, ties, coffee, cell phone and doughnuts.
>>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>> The MySQL development process is also different from ours, so why
>>> can't the marketing process be different as well?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>> It is already different in that we are marketing a project not a
>> product. Yes a product comes from
>> the resulting project but there is no money incentive. At least not
>> directly. All I am saying is that
>> marketing people are better at marketing and those people have a
>> certain way they do things and
>> that developers are better at developing and they have their way of
>> doing things. In short we should
>> be respectful and open to each way.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Joshua D. Drake
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>>>
>>>               http://archives.postgresql.org
>>>  
>>>
>>
>>