Thread: The first dedicated PostgreSQL forum

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on the mailing list :)

As of today I have started the first dedicated postgres forum at:
http://forums.postgresql.com.au

I would much appreciate anyone that has the time to sign up and subscribe to some of the forums ready to answer
incomingposts. 

Any feedback would be appreciated.
- Elliot

On 13/11/2010 03:43, Elliot Chance wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> This is my first post on the mailing list :)
>
> As of today I have started the first dedicated postgres forum at:
> http://forums.postgresql.com.au

Hi there,

Without in any way running down the effort you've put into the above,
I'm just curious as to what it's meant to achieve that the mailing list
and wiki don't.

Ray.

--
Raymond O'Donnell :: Galway :: Ireland
rod@iol.ie

Le 13/11/2010 17:43, Raymond O'Donnell a écrit :
> On 13/11/2010 03:43, Elliot Chance wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> This is my first post on the mailing list :)
>>
>> As of today I have started the first dedicated postgres forum at:
>> http://forums.postgresql.com.au
>
> Hi there,
>
> Without in any way running down the effort you've put into the above,
> I'm just curious as to what it's meant to achieve that the mailing list
> and wiki don't.
>

Actually, you could be quite surprised on the number of people not
willing to use a mailing list, and ready to use web forums.

Just to take an example, pgsql-fr-generale (the french general mailing
list) is really quiet. Usually not more than 10 threads per month. But
the french web forums (http://forums.postgresql.fr) are much much more used.


--
Guillaume
 http://www.postgresql.fr
 http://dalibo.com

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Guillaume Lelarge wrote:

> Actually, you could be quite surprised on the number of people not willing
> to use a mailing list, and ready to use web forums.

   I think this is a generational thing. Most of us who've been running linux
or a *nix for a while prefer to have the information pushed to us via a mail
list. Those who are more used to doing everything with a GUI and pointing
device seem to prefer pulling information by visiting a Web site. I much
prefer having information pushed to me, and that's one reason (the
noise-to-signal ratio being another) why I no longer use Usenet news groups
as much as I did.

   When this same issue came up on other mail lists someone would always
point out that there are websites (gmane, perhaps?) that allow a Web BUI
interface to mail lists.

Rich

Rich Shepard <rshepard@appl-ecosys.com> writes:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Guillaume Lelarge wrote:
>> Actually, you could be quite surprised on the number of people not willing
>> to use a mailing list, and ready to use web forums.

>    I think this is a generational thing.

I'm not nearly as concerned about whether there are forums as about
having "rogue" forums outside the postgresql.org domain.  People could
misperceive such things as having some official status, which would lead
to conclusions like "postgres must be dead because there's no traffic in
this forum".  It needs to be connected to the community as a whole, and
some random guy deciding to create his own forum doesn't sound like a
recipe for getting to that.

(BTW, if memory serves, this has happened before, with no positive
long-term results.)

            regards, tom lane

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Tom Lane wrote:

> I'm not nearly as concerned about whether there are forums as about having
> "rogue" forums outside the postgresql.org domain.  People could
> misperceive such things as having some official status, which would lead
> to conclusions like "postgres must be dead because there's no traffic in
> this forum".  It needs to be connected to the community as a whole, and
> some random guy deciding to create his own forum doesn't sound like a
> recipe for getting to that.

Tom,

   A reasonable concern. I was certainly not advocating or supporting the
idea of a Web-based forum. As an old curmudgeon I much prefer mail lists.

Rich

Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
> It's a shame that a forum can't act as a front-end for a mailing list, so
> signing up to the forum actually signs you up to a mailing list (if you're
> not already signed up), but without receiving any emails.  Messages posted
> to the forum would get sent to the list, and vice versa.

That would be cool.  Wonder if there's something like that out there already.

> And such a system
> would need to support cross-posting too somehow.

Dunno, seems like we've been discouraging cross-posting lately anyhow.
I wouldn't see anything wrong with forum posts only being able to go to
one mailing list, as long as there were a forum corresponding to each
active list.

            regards, tom lane

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Tom Lane wrote:

> That would be cool.  Wonder if there's something like that out there already.

   I don't know if BUI-based subscription is supported, but there are
reported solutions. Take a look at gmane.org (mail<->Usenet news groups) and
see if that might work.

Rich

On 11/13/2010 11:24 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
>> It's a shame that a forum can't act as a front-end for a mailing list, so
>> signing up to the forum actually signs you up to a mailing list (if you're
>> not already signed up), but without receiving any emails.  Messages posted
>> to the forum would get sent to the list, and vice versa.
>
> That would be cool.  Wonder if there's something like that out there already.

It exists -- not sure what they are using, but for example the Users
forum here -- http://forum.sipfoundry.org/index.php -- is
bidirectionally linked with sipx-users@list.sipfoundry.org

Joe

--
Joe Conway
credativ LLC: http://www.credativ.us
Linux, PostgreSQL, and general Open Source
Training, Service, Consulting, & 24x7 Support

On Sat, 2010-11-13 at 19:21 +0100, Guillaume Lelarge wrote:
> Le 13/11/2010 17:43, Raymond O'Donnell a écrit :
> > On 13/11/2010 03:43, Elliot Chance wrote:
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> This is my first post on the mailing list :)
> >>
> >> As of today I have started the first dedicated postgres forum at:
> >> http://forums.postgresql.com.au
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > Without in any way running down the effort you've put into the above,
> > I'm just curious as to what it's meant to achieve that the mailing list
> > and wiki don't.
> >
>
> Actually, you could be quite surprised on the number of people not
> willing to use a mailing list, and ready to use web forums.
>
> Just to take an example, pgsql-fr-generale (the french general mailing
> list) is really quiet. Usually not more than 10 threads per month. But
> the french web forums (http://forums.postgresql.fr) are much much more used.

Yep and if we ever want to get Drupal developers (as an example) a forum
is the way to go. They don't like mailing lists either.

JD

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

I've used lists where the the line between forum and mailing list is blurred. See:

http://www.cocoabuilder.com/

This is actually a web interface for a couple of mailing lists, and is a great tool for searching past posts. You can't
postto the web site though - it is strictly a third-party web interface for the lists, but it's my first go-to for
searching.

I realize you can search this list here:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/

but a more polished web interface of the list I think would satisfy everyone.

BTW, I performed a search on that page for the word "replication" and the result was very slow ("Searching in 863,821
pagestook 25.1127 seconds"). 

Demitri

I would like to see this type of setup used.  I use my cell phone for about 90% of my internet access during the day when I'm on the road.  I've found in the past that forums usually have better search tools and they also will not fill up my email address.  I find many things in these forums which are great to be able to save and search on but would like to get rid of the posts from my emails.  I don't want to not have access to them because when I'm board I can start to read through threads that interest me.  I just don't want to have to download the emails to do that.

Best Regards

Mike Gould

"Thom Brown" <thom@linux.com> wrote:

On 13 November 2010 19:44, Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> wrote:

On 13 November 2010 19:38, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:

On 11/13/2010 11:24 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
>> It's a shame that a forum can't act as a front-end for a mailing list, so
>> signing up to the forum actually signs you up to a mailing list (if you're
>> not already signed up), but without receiving any emails.  Messages posted
>> to the forum would get sent to the list, and vice versa.
>
> That would be cool.  Wonder if there's something like that out there already.

It exists -- not sure what they are using, but for example the Users
forum here -- http://forum.sipfoundry.org/index.php -- is
bidirectionally linked with sipx-users@list.sipfoundry.org

 

FUDForum by the look of it: http://cvs.prohost.org/index.php

 

 

And mailing list integration looks pretty straightforward and well supported: http://cvs.prohost.org/index.php/Mailing_List_Manager

 

Feasible?  Desirable?

--
Thom Brown
Twitter: @darkixion
IRC (freenode): dark_ixion
Registered Linux user: #516935

On Saturday 13 November 2010 1:52:11 pm thatsanicehatyouhave@mac.com wrote:
> I've used lists where the the line between forum and mailing list is
> blurred. See:
>
> http://www.cocoabuilder.com/
>
> This is actually a web interface for a couple of mailing lists, and is a
> great tool for searching past posts. You can't post to the web site though
> - it is strictly a third-party web interface for the lists, but it's my
> first go-to for searching.
>
> I realize you can search this list here:
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/
>
> but a more polished web interface of the list I think would satisfy
> everyone.
>
> BTW, I performed a search on that page for the word "replication" and the
> result was very slow ("Searching in 863,821 pages took 25.1127 seconds").
>
> Demitri

You must have hit a batch of slow electrons :) My result:
"Searching in 863,821 pages took 0.84438 seconds."

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@gmail.com

On 11/13/2010 3:31 PM, LazyTrek wrote:
> Do the long standing members not have problems with spam?

As you can see I use a list alias. However, in my experience the notion
that you can avoid spam by not frequenting mailing lists is quaint to
say the least. The spammers have had ways to find, steal and guess your
email address for many years. I'll say that if you use an address at all
(meaning, you send people email using it), then you'll receive spam (and
lots of it).

On 11/14/2010 03:13 AM, Thom Brown wrote:

> It's a shame that a forum can't act as a front-end for a mailing list,
> so signing up to the forum actually signs you up to a mailing list (if
> you're not already signed up), but without receiving any emails.
>   Messages posted to the forum would get sent to the list, and vice
> versa.  And such a system would need to support cross-posting too somehow.

It can. The glassfish forums are bidirectionally gatewayed to the
mailing list in just such a manner, and it works astonishingly well.
Before using those I would've been opposed to the idea, but now ... it
doesn't seem so bad.

--
Craig Ringer

One thing that makes me agree with this is the antiquated format of the digest
emails.

I hate google mail, but I love the google groups application. If postgres had a
combination online forum/google groups thing (if there is such a thing),
communication would be much improved.

Now, I KNOW that database types are conservative by nature, almost as much as
accountants. But a little change is good now and then ;-)


 Dennis Gearon
From: Guillaume Lelarge <guillaume@lelarge.info>

To: rod@iol.ie
Cc: Elliot Chance <elliotchance@gmail.com>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: The first dedicated PostgreSQL forum
Message-ID: <4CDED73F.90901@lelarge.info>

Le 13/11/2010 17:43, Raymond O'Donnell a écrit :
> On 13/11/2010 03:43, Elliot Chance wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> This is my first post on the mailing list :)
>>
>> As of today I have started the first dedicated postgres forum at:
>> http://forums.postgresql.com.au
>
> Hi there,
>
> Without in any way running down the effort you've put into the above,
> I'm just curious as to what it's meant to achieve that the mailing list
> and wiki don't.
>

Actually, you could be quite surprised on the number of people not
willing to use a mailing list, and ready to use web forums.

Just to take an example, pgsql-fr-generale (the french general mailing
list) is really quiet. Usually not more than 10 threads per month. But
the french web forums (http://forums.postgresql.fr) are much much more used.


--
Guillaume
http://www.postgresql.fr
http://dalibo.com

Tom Lane wrote:
> I'm not nearly as concerned about whether there are forums as about
> having "rogue" forums outside the postgresql.org domain.  People could
> misperceive such things as having some official status

That the site is now mirroring recent news from postgresql.org doesn't
help with that.  I find it hard to get too excited about yet another
forum style discussion area when there's already more PostgreSQL talk on
http://stackoverflow.com/ than I have time to keep up with.

--
Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant US    greg@2ndQuadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support        www.2ndQuadrant.us
"PostgreSQL 9.0 High Performance": http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/books

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 02:01, Dennis Gearon <gearond@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> One thing that makes me agree with this is the antiquated format of the digest
> emails.

I agree - I thought nobody used that anymore :-)


> I hate google mail, but I love the google groups application. If postgres had a
> combination online forum/google groups thing (if there is such a thing),
> communication would be much improved.

Personally, I hate the google groups format. But that's beside the
point here - I do realize that others prefer it.

I do think that the PostgreSQL lists are available there. And other
than that, they are on markmail.org, Nabble, etc. AFAIK several of
those allow both reading and posting. Is there actually something
about these interfaces that people find *missing*, or can we easily
solve this whole thing by more clearly telling people that these
options exist?


--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Craig Ringer
<craig@postnewspapers.com.au> wrote:
> It can. The glassfish forums are bidirectionally gatewayed to the mailing
> list in just such a manner, and it works astonishingly well. Before using
> those I would've been opposed to the idea, but now ... it doesn't seem so
> bad.

The google mailing lists also have this bidirectional feature.

--
Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

Visit the Los Angeles PostgreSQL Users Group (LAPUG)
http://pugs.postgresql.org/lapug

On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 21:06 +0100, Magnus Hagander wrote:

> I do think that the PostgreSQL lists are available there. And other
> than that, they are on markmail.org, Nabble, etc. AFAIK several of
> those allow both reading and posting. Is there actually something
> about these interfaces that people find *missing*, or can we easily
> solve this whole thing by more clearly telling people that these
> options exist?

Mainly I think it is the user interface and the fact that they are
external. They don't look, act or feel like forums. Shrug. Further they
aren't part of postgresql.org so nobody knows the level of real support
they are going to get.

JD


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface preference.

--Lee

On 11/15/2010 03:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 21:06 +0100, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>
>> I do think that the PostgreSQL lists are available there. And other
>> than that, they are on markmail.org, Nabble, etc. AFAIK several of
>> those allow both reading and posting. Is there actually something
>> about these interfaces that people find *missing*, or can we easily
>> solve this whole thing by more clearly telling people that these
>> options exist?
>
> Mainly I think it is the user interface and the fact that they are
> external. They don't look, act or feel like forums. Shrug. Further they
> aren't part of postgresql.org so nobody knows the level of real support
> they are going to get.
>
> JD
>
>

--
Lee Hachadoorian
PhD Student, Geography
Program in Earth & Environmental Sciences
CUNY Graduate Center

On 11/15/2010 5:53 PM, Lee Hachadoorian wrote:
> If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
> gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
> gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
> or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
> preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface preference.
>

Honestly those options suck.
The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school, people
coming from other databases
expect a web based forum plain and simple.  To attract more users the
forums are a GREAT idea.

Stop this ridiculous complaining about interface fracture etc .

I can tell you for SURE that many people who are not OLD SCHOOL hate
mailing lists,  A web based forum
gives everyday users more of a chance of interacting with the community.

It would be a good idea to stop the bickering and just implement the forums.

Sorry if people don't like my honest answer :-)

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 15:09, Tony Caduto
<tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com> wrote:
> On 11/15/2010 5:53 PM, Lee Hachadoorian wrote:
>>
>> If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
>> gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
>> gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
>> or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
>> preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface
>> preference.
>>
>
> Honestly those options suck.
> The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school, people
> coming from other databases
> expect a web based forum plain and simple.  To attract more users the forums
> are a GREAT idea.
>
> Stop this ridiculous complaining about interface fracture etc .
>
> I can tell you for SURE that many people who are not OLD SCHOOL hate mailing
> lists,  A web based forum
> gives everyday users more of a chance of interacting with the community.
>
> It would be a good idea to stop the bickering and just implement the forums.
>
> Sorry if people don't like my honest answer :-)

Clearly you're volunteering to tell us exactly *what* features are
needed that aren't on gmane, nabble or such sites. Which is something
nobody has done so far - other than just saying they don't like email.


--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

On 11/17/2010 03:09 PM, Tony Caduto wrote:
> On 11/15/2010 5:53 PM, Lee Hachadoorian wrote:
>> If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
>> gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
>> gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
>> or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
>> preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface
>> preference.
>>
>
> Honestly those options suck.
> The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school,
> people coming from other databases
> expect a web based forum plain and simple.  To attract more users the
> forums are a GREAT idea.
>
> Stop this ridiculous complaining about interface fracture etc .
>
> I can tell you for SURE that many people who are not OLD SCHOOL hate
> mailing lists,  A web based forum
> gives everyday users more of a chance of interacting with the community.
>
> It would be a good idea to stop the bickering and just implement the
> forums.
>
> Sorry if people don't like my honest answer :-)
That may be your honest opinion but some of us actually prefer mailing
lists. I use both, for different purposes and have noticed that there
are quite a lot of really bad forum implementations.

When I use mailing lists I filter the mail to different folders (as I
suspect 99.9% of all mailing list users do). I always choose mail client
where filtering is convenient. If you are not free to choose mail client
and are stuck with a bad one I can understand if you don't appreciate
mailing lists but for me it is far more convenient than a forum.

But you have a point that mailing lists are not for everyday users but I
doubt that "everyday users", that find configuring an email client
difficult, would have any reason to visit this mailing list.

Still, the best option would of course be to have both, that would give
people choice, but I share the concern for anonymous posts spamming the
mail lists with questions that can be answered with a simple search in
the (excellent) documentation.

My $.02
/Fredric

On 2010-11-17 15.09, Tony Caduto wrote:
> On 11/15/2010 5:53 PM, Lee Hachadoorian wrote:
>> If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
>> gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
>> gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
>> or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
>> preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface
>> preference.
>>
>
> Honestly those options suck.
> The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school, people
> coming from other databases
> expect a web based forum plain and simple. To attract more users the
> forums are a GREAT idea.
>
> Stop this ridiculous complaining about interface fracture etc .
>
> I can tell you for SURE that many people who are not OLD SCHOOL hate
> mailing lists, A web based forum
> gives everyday users more of a chance of interacting with the community.
>
> It would be a good idea to stop the bickering and just implement the
> forums.

It's not bickering. It's a discussion and it is what makes the
PostgreSQL community keep such a high standard on code and documentation.

>
> Sorry if people don't like my honest answer :-)


--
Regards,
Robert "roppert" Gravsjö

On 17 November 2010 14:09, Tony Caduto <tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com> wrote:
> On 11/15/2010 5:53 PM, Lee Hachadoorian wrote:
>>
>> If anyone's interested, I've started accessing the postgres list through
>> gmane.org (along with several other mailing lists I subscribe to). It's
>> gives you the choice of reading the list as a threaded archive, a blog,
>> or through an NNTP newsreader or an RSS feed. Everyone chooses their
>> preferred interface, the community is not fractured by interface
>> preference.
>>
>
> Honestly those options suck.
> The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school, people
> coming from other databases
> expect a web based forum plain and simple.  To attract more users the forums
> are a GREAT idea.
>
> Stop this ridiculous complaining about interface fracture etc .
>
> I can tell you for SURE that many people who are not OLD SCHOOL hate mailing
> lists,  A web based forum
> gives everyday users more of a chance of interacting with the community.
>
> It would be a good idea to stop the bickering and just implement the forums.
>
> Sorry if people don't like my honest answer :-)

It's not honesty people would have a problem with, it's the "shut up
and just do it without thinking" attitude which we're not used to.  We
tend not to make impulsive decisions on here.  I think debate from
several perspectives is the only way to get a good picture of the pros
and cons or proposals, and to get constructive feedback.

As has been said previously, an unlinked forum (one which has no
interaction with the mailing list) is destined to fail, as others have
in the past.  It's creates a fragmented community and poor support on
such a forum would reflect badly on the PostgreSQL community.

Mailing lists aren't "old school".  They've just got a long history,
and I think you'll find most open source projects probably have a
mailing list (or several) associated with them.  But the reason why a
forum hasn't been rejected out of hand is that we recognise that there
is a demographic which probably see a mailing list as a barrier, hence
our discussion about integrating a bidirection sync between a forum
and a mailing list.  And the reason why we like that idea is that it
ensures that people who would only join a forum benefit from the huge
pool of knowledge and experience of users on the mailing list.

--
Thom Brown
Twitter: @darkixion
IRC (freenode): dark_ixion
Registered Linux user: #516935

On 11/17/10 6:09 AM, Tony Caduto wrote:
>
> The mailing lists etc are fine, but they are kind of old school,
> people coming from other databases
> expect a web based forum plain and simple.  To attract more users the
> forums are a GREAT idea.

gee, we should have a Facebook wall and a Twitter feed too, after all
there's a half billion(!?!) facebookers and god only knows how many
twits in the world!

I think I'll start a new social networking system and call it Twaddle.

    John R Pierce wrote:

> gee, we should have a Facebook wall

As if there wasn't one already :)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=2324323985&v=wall

> and a Twitter feed too

http://twitter.com/postgresql

Best regards,
--
Daniel
PostgreSQL-powered mail user agent and storage: http://www.manitou-mail.org

Hi,

> As has been said previously, an unlinked forum (one which has no
> interaction with the mailing list) is destined to fail, as others have
> in the past.  It's creates a fragmented community and poor support on
> such a forum would reflect badly on the PostgreSQL community.
>
> Mailing lists aren't "old school".  They've just got a long history,
> and I think you'll find most open source projects probably have a
> mailing list (or several) associated with them.

I watch this thread at a glance, but I think idea of forum isn't bad as long
as it can integrate with mailing list. It's just because you can't say to
people "from tomorrow all of you will use forums instead of mailing lists".

I generally prefer forums, over mailing lists (if ofcourse forums works fast,
with short latancy).

But as suggestion from my side, a really good example of functionality is
NetBeans formus and mailing lists. There, user can join, as well forums and/or
mailing list, each of those is synchronized so every post on forum you can get
by mail and vice versa, you can, as well respond by mail to post, and your
response will be on forum. And as I see "1st Dedicated Forum" has this.

One of nice soultions there is every user has some kind alias e-mail, so you
responds to eg "rsmogura@netbeans.org", not to private addresses, and this
protects you form receiving spam.

Kind regards,
Radek