Thread: web programming
Hi folks, I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using php. 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more mature language than php. 2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's intriguing me a lot. So what's your favorite web programming language to use with postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of things to think about. Thanks! Michelle ------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. President, Norwottuck Technology Resources mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
I too use PHP and PostgreSQL for %90 of my web programming projects (C
for the other %10)... I find the embedded nature of PHP to aide in
development more than anything (though I suppose you can get that from
mod_perl as well).. I don't do much Perl at all, I found the language to be
sloppy and very messy (I'm a pretty 'neat' programmer I guess) I liked PHP's
structure and flow.. I shouldn't trash Perl as I don't know it very well at
all, I know enough to know that I don't want to know any more :-)
I've always found PHP to be as fast as I've ever needed and some of the
applications I've written get many thousands of hits a day on (at best)
mediocre hardware..
Use what you like best as most languages (especially PHP, Perl and C)
are all very capable web programming languages, it comes down to programmer
preference I suppose..
Good luck!
-Mitch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Murrain" <mpm@norwottuck.com>
To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:15 PM
Subject: [GENERAL] web programming
> Hi folks,
>
> I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a
> fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and
> php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold
> on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling
> reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using
> php.
>
> 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more
> mature language than php.
>
> 2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's
> intriguing me a lot.
>
> So what's your favorite web programming language to use with
> postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think
> about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of
> things to think about.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Michelle
> -------------------------------------------
> Michelle Murrain, Ph.D.
> President, Norwottuck Technology Resources
> mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
>
On Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 09:15:53PM -0400, Michelle Murrain wrote: > 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > mature language than php. I've used perl just as a sysadmin till now, but I'm learning DBI/mod_perl at the moment. I found that they are very powerfull tools; the DBI is quite easy but mod_perl not, you have to read lots of docs and do some practise. The fact that php is an embedded language may be things easy at the beginning, but mod_perl give you a better control over the Apache. (But in fact I know just some basics about PHP). > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think mod_perl is known to be very fast, in fact it do not need to parse file to find the code, by the way when a script has been compiled it is kept in memory. On the other hand it needs lot of memory. > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of > things to think about. There are CPAN modules to parse then as input, and, while XML is all text pile is very easy to create and manipulate with perl. -- Ciao, Maurizio.
I've been using PostgreSQL with Lutris Enhydra for my web apps and am quite happy with the combination. Enhydra is open source and Java-based. One of its centerpiece components is XMLC -- an XML compiler. For more info on Enhydra itself, see: http://www.enhydra.org/software/enhydra For a quick tutorial to get it up and running with PostgreSQL see: http://www.enhydra.org/software/documentation/enhydra/NewApp-DODS-Tutorial-PGSQL.html When the time comes to revamp the perl/CGI apps I developed before Enhydra I'll very likely port them over as well. HTH, Jim -- Michelle Murrain wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > php. > > 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > mature language than php. > > 2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > intriguing me a lot. > > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of > things to think about. > > Thanks! > > Michelle > ------------------------------------------- > Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. > President, Norwottuck Technology Resources > mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
Zope. http://www.zope.org Been using PostgreSQL behind Zope for a couple of sites for over 8 months now and it has been a pleasure. Cheers, J At 9:15 PM -0400 9/25/2000, Michelle Murrain wrote: >Hi folks, > >I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a >fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and >php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold >on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling >reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using >php. > >1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more >mature language than php. > >2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's >intriguing me a lot. > >So what's your favorite web programming language to use with >postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think >about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set >of things to think about. > >Thanks! > >Michelle >------------------------------------------- >Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. >President, Norwottuck Technology Resources >mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
I use PHP with my Postgresql and haven't hit a limitation yet. As far as perl goes, I know some web develoeprs for a consulting firm that use Solaris and they are pretty tight in the industry. Their advice to me was that if I already don't know Perl, don't learn it. They said to take the Java route. They also were fond of PHP. In a nutshell, they said Java will phase out most large perl implementations (new clients tend to be developed in java, old code is redone, etc.) As for me, I was thinking about trying java server pages, just for the fact that you can technically use Java for every level of development. Adam Lang Systems Engineer Rutgers Casualty Insurance Company ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Murrain" <mpm@norwottuck.com> To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: [GENERAL] web programming > Hi folks, > > I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > php. > > 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > mature language than php. > > 2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > intriguing me a lot. > > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of > things to think about. > > Thanks! > > Michelle > ------------------------------------------- > Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. > President, Norwottuck Technology Resources > mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, J. Atwood wrote: > Zope. http://www.zope.org > > Been using PostgreSQL behind Zope for a couple of sites for over 8 > months now and it has been a pleasure. > > Cheers, > J Hi J and Michelle. I'm curious to try this also - I have a friend who has done alot of work with Zope/Pg and so I have been looking over his shoulder for awhile...I'd like to have a go myself. I have written a slew of applications for my company's Intranet in perl/CGI/DBI. This is also a high octane solution. Of course I am a perl fanatic (it's like C for those of us with severe time constraints and limited abilities ;-) My src is public domain but not yet ready for prime time (too few comments and too many mistakes, sloppy coding). I would send a sample tho if you (Michelle) were interested. Ciao, Tom > At 9:15 PM -0400 9/25/2000, Michelle Murrain wrote: > >Hi folks, > > > >I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > >fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > >php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > >on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > >reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > >php. > > > >1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > >mature language than php. > > > >2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > >intriguing me a lot. > > > >So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > >postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > >about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set > >of things to think about. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Michelle > >------------------------------------------- > >Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. > >President, Norwottuck Technology Resources > >mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- SVCMC - Center for Behavioral Health -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Good tomg@ { admin | q8 } .nrnet.org IS Coordinator / DBA Phone: 718-354-5528 Fax: 718-354-5056 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Powered by: PostgreSQL s l a c k w a r e FreeBSD: RDBMS |---------- linux The Power To Serve --------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that JSP/J2EE can't be beat (having used CF, ASP, Perl etc). That said, the Postgres SQL JDBC driver seems very buggy. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-general-owner@hub.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@hub.org]On > Behalf Of J. Atwood > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 10:54 PM > To: Michelle Murrain; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] web programming > > > Zope. http://www.zope.org > > Been using PostgreSQL behind Zope for a couple of sites for over 8 > months now and it has been a pleasure. > > Cheers, > J > > > At 9:15 PM -0400 9/25/2000, Michelle Murrain wrote: > >Hi folks, > > > >I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > >fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > >php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > >on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > >reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > >php. > > > >1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > >mature language than php. > > > >2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > >intriguing me a lot. > > > >So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > >postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > >about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set > >of things to think about. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Michelle > >------------------------------------------- > >Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. > >President, Norwottuck Technology Resources > >mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com > >
On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Michelle Murrain wrote: > Hi folks, > > I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > php. > > 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > mature language than php. > > 2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > intriguing me a lot. > > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of > things to think about. I prefer PHP, and a close second is C. What's nice about PHP is you can come in and out of it as needed to add your javascript or just straight HTML and it's seemless (yes, you can use echo or print statements to do this, but sometimes it's easier not to). I can also use or not use the database and it's not visable to the visitor. I did the entire Pop4 Networking site (http://www.pop4.net) in PHP and it's saved alot of needless CGI calls. There will be some PHP included in the PostgreSQL website in the not too distant future as well. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 128K ISDN from $22.00/mo - 56K Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more
> mature language than php.
To say the least :). If you like the php (or cold fusion, etc..)
way of embedding the script in the HTML try mason (perl modules):
http://www.masonhq.com/
It can take advantage of mod_perl if you're using Apache. This makes
it very fast.
--
matthew rice <matt@starnix.com> starnix inc.
tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux thornhill, ontario, canada
http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products
> I have to say that JSP/J2EE can't be beat (having used CF, ASP, Perl etc). > > That said, the Postgres SQL JDBC driver seems very buggy. > > Mike > We have been using JSP/J2EE with PostgreSQL for around a year now on multiple projects. It is my opinion that J2EE is the most robust programming model for web development. I would qualify this by saying that for simpler web applications, J2EE can be overkill, and scripted solutions such as PHP are much faster and easier to use. Different tools for different situations. The PostgreSQL JDBC driver is a VERY important to our work. I think the work that has been done so far is good, but it seems that there is still a lot of confusion over versions, where to get the driver, and the status of current bugs (such as the Timestamp issue). I would like to see the JDBC driver get more priority, because I think it is critical to a lot of developers out there. - Adam ------------------- Adam Rossi President, PlatinumSolutions, Inc. adam.rossi@platinumsolutions.com http://www.platinumsolutions.com P.O. Box 31 Oakton, VA 22124 PH: 703.352.8576 FAX: 703.352.8577 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pgsql-general-owner@hub.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@hub.org]On > > Behalf Of J. Atwood > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 10:54 PM > > To: Michelle Murrain; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] web programming > > > > > > Zope. http://www.zope.org > > > > Been using PostgreSQL behind Zope for a couple of sites for over 8 > > months now and it has been a pleasure. > > > > Cheers, > > J > > > > > > At 9:15 PM -0400 9/25/2000, Michelle Murrain wrote: > > >Hi folks, > > > > > >I thought (now that I've solved my DBD::Pg problem) that I'd ask a > > >fairly generic opinion question. I've been working with postgres and > > >php now for about 4 years, quite heavily in the last year. I'm sold > > >on postgres, and will continue to use it unless I have compelling > > >reasons not to. But I'm debating about continuing development using > > >php. > > > > > >1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more > > >mature language than php. > > > > > >2) I've been learning a bit about jsp and java servlets - and that's > > >intriguing me a lot. > > > > > >So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > > >postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > > >about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set > > >of things to think about. > > > > > >Thanks! > > > > > >Michelle > > >------------------------------------------- > > >Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. > > >President, Norwottuck Technology Resources > > >mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com > > > > >
At 10:40 AM -0400 9/26/00, Matthew Rice wrote: > > 1) I'm getting better and better at perl - and it's a much more >> mature language than php. > >To say the least :). If you like the php (or cold fusion, etc..) >way of embedding the script in the HTML try mason (perl modules): > > http://www.masonhq.com/ > >It can take advantage of mod_perl if you're using Apache. This makes >it very fast. Which does bring me to speed/performance issues: - is there any data on a comparison between php and cgi/perl and/or mod_perl? (any in particular relating to DB queries? And, does reducing cgi calls increase performance?) - is it fairly well established that using server-side java is faster than either of these other methods? Are there any other things that server-side java gives you (power, flexibility) that php or perl can't? I know this all may largely be based on anecdotal experience. I am fascinated by how many different methods folks are using - and how many different options there are. I noticed no one has mentioned ColdFusion. (I imagine it's the natural open-source bias here - I certainly have one.) Thanks for any insights - and thanks for the points of view - very interesting! Michelle ------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. President, Norwottuck Technology Resources mpm@norwottuck.com www.norwottuck.com
FWIW, a few random notes: when using mod_perl with apache, you can take advantage of the Apache::DBI module, which pools database connections. last january, we did a benchmark of mod_perl for a specific job and were able to get around 50 concurrent connections per second averaged across 11 servers (each server was running a copy of the script). since we exceeded our benchmark we didn't push it to see wht the limit was. the machines were linux (rh 6) boxes, dual pIII, with a lot of memory (can't recall exact amt). the script itself grabbed some info from a web page (i don't think it used CGI.pm) and wrote it to a file on the local machine. using mod_perl, you have a complete interface to the webserver's API, allowing you to do very sophisticated programming with the advantages of a high level language. the readability of a program written in perl, often described as a "write-only" language, is really more about the person writing the code. if the person writing is scatterbrained, you'll have scatterbrained code. one can write very structured and organized code in perl, that is very efficienct and very powerful. however, if you're working in a group environment perl can be very confusing to work with. particularly if some teammembers are not so experienced with perl and some are very experienced. regards --e--
Michelle Murrain wrote: > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of > things to think about. AOLserver tcl. Fast. Easy. Did I mention fast? With ns_xml, nsjava, and nstomcat (and PHP4 as well, although you really don't need PHP with the built-in TCL, unless you already have some PHP code) available, as well as proven power and robustness (AOL is serving an average of 28K hits per second on their AOLserver-based server farms -- look at the architecture of Digital City for an example of what AOLserver can do), AOLserver is an excellent, easy to learn and easier to use platform to develop database backed websites on. It's popular (see the netcraft survey and sum the results of NaviServer and AOLserver -- not nearly as many as Apache or the other big ones, but way more than Zope), and, did I mention, it's FAST! The database speed is directly attributable to the multithreaded persistently pooled connection paradigm that AOLserver pioneered in 1995. See www.aolserver.com for details, docs, and source. See www.openacs.org for a web community toolkit for AOLserver and PostgreSQL that includes everything -- even the kitchen sink. I've run AOLserver longer than I've run PostgreSQL -- in fact, it was the 'Postgres95' support by AOLserver that got me involved (for better or for worse) with PostgreSQL, back in 6.1.1 days. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
-> > So what's your favorite web programming language to use with -> > postgres, and why? Are there speed/performance issues I should think -> > about? I'm also beginning to get into XML, so there is another set of -> > things to think about. -> -> AOLserver tcl. Fast. Easy. Did I mention fast? -> -> With ns_xml, nsjava, and nstomcat (and PHP4 as well, although you really -> don't need PHP with the built-in TCL, unless you already have some PHP -> code) available, as well as proven power and robustness (AOL is serving -> an average of 28K hits per second on their AOLserver-based server farms -> -- look at the architecture of Digital City for an example of what -> AOLserver can do), AOLserver is an excellent, easy to learn and easier -> to use platform to develop database backed websites on. There is also a module to build Python into AOLserver, as well. http://pywx.idyll.org/. We've been developing in AOLserver/PyWX for about three months now -- starting with programmers who didn't know Python, incidentally -- and it works great. At some point we'll probably take advantage of the Java modules, but apart from that, all of the functionality available thru Tcl is available in Python as well. The latest release provides a complete Python wrap of the AOLserver C API, by the way. To specifically address your XML needs: Python has an *excellent* collection of XML utilities. E-mail me separately and we can talk about it (since it's probably kind of off-topic for this list...) cheers, --titus
> As far as perl goes, I know some web develoeprs for a consulting firm that > use Solaris and they are pretty tight in the industry. Their advice to me > was that if I already don't know Perl, don't learn it. You expect anything different from a Sun representative? One of our competitors sunk well over a million bucks into Sun/Oracle hardware, and thought they'd be "cutting-edge" by doing all of their back-end programming in Java. The end result is that our $20,000 cluster using Linux, Postgres, and Perl out-performs their setup by a very significant factor, and also has a greater potential for scalability. It's also a lot easier for us to find programmers than they can, and we turn out new products faster than they do. steve
Titus Brown wrote: > -> With ns_xml, nsjava, and nstomcat (and PHP4 as well, although you really > There is also a module to build Python into AOLserver, as well. > http://pywx.idyll.org/. Sorry, Titus, I knew about pywx, but forgot to mention it. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
They didn't work for Sun, per se. They mostly do hosting and they do it on Soalris. Granted, I am unaware of how tight they are with Sun, but as with all advice, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Adam Lang Systems Engineer Rutgers Casualty Insurance Company ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Wolfe" <steve@iboats.com> To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [GENERAL] web programming > > As far as perl goes, I know some web develoeprs for a consulting firm that > > use Solaris and they are pretty tight in the industry. Their advice to me > > was that if I already don't know Perl, don't learn it. > > You expect anything different from a Sun representative? > > One of our competitors sunk well over a million bucks into Sun/Oracle > hardware, and thought they'd be "cutting-edge" by doing all of their > back-end programming in Java. The end result is that our $20,000 cluster > using Linux, Postgres, and Perl out-performs their setup by a very > significant factor, and also has a greater potential for scalability. It's > also a lot easier for us to find programmers than they can, and we turn out > new products faster than they do. > > steve
> (and PHP4 as well, although you really don't > need PHP with the built-in TCL, unless you > already have some PHP code) AOLServer comes with a built-in PHP4 interpreter these days? That's fabulous; I'll have to give it another look. As faras your statement above, in my opinion TCL itself is the strongest argument for "needing" PHP. :-) Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
K Parker wrote: > > > (and PHP4 as well, although you really don't > > need PHP with the built-in TCL, unless you > > already have some PHP code) > AOLServer comes with a built-in PHP4 interpreter these days? No -- PHP4 supports AOLserver's API now, just like Apache. See the PHP4 pages for more info. > That's fabulous; I'll have to give it another look. As far as your statement above, in my opinion TCL itself is the strongestargument for "needing" PHP. :-) Aw, tcl code is easy -- once you get past the command/string paradigm if you're used to function/expression coding. It's just different. And, if you do decide to give OpenACS a try, you'll find many seriously useful procedures defined for you, even if you don't use the actual ACS codebase. Stuff like the nice 'set_the_usual_form_variables' procedure. And the AOLserver API is strong in db-functionality -- it beats PHP's db API for one, and only one, reason -- AOLserver's tcl (and C) db API is regular -- that is, there isn't one set of functions for PostgreSQL and a whole different set for MySQL -- there is a single ns_db API that is regular across all the databases. DB-specific extensions are handled through things like ns_ora for Oracle, ns_pg for PostgreSQL, etc. And I do PHP programming (for hire) as well as AOLserver TCL, so I have a good basis for that remark. Although I wouldn't count myself a PHP 'guru', I do understand the language, and can make it do what I want. Likewise with AOLserver TCL. It's just another language. No better; no worse. If I had to use Z80 machine code (in hexadecimal) to do web pages, I would -- it's just another language. (but, then again, Z80 hex machine code is my native tongue, so _anything_ is easier from my point of view). -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
At 09:28 AM 9/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, J. Atwood wrote: > > > Zope. http://www.zope.org > > > > Been using PostgreSQL behind Zope for a couple of sites for over 8 > > months now and it has been a pleasure. > > > > Cheers, > > J I also use Zope and PostGres intensively over 9 month on a production system. It works really nice together. The PyGreSQLDA is not thread safe, so you to be a little careful, but the new PoPyDA fixed all this and works really nice. (I have not tried PoPy on production yet.) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management
On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 09:17:43AM -0400, Adam Lang wrote: > As far as perl goes, I know some web develoeprs for a consulting firm that > use Solaris and they are pretty tight in the industry. Their advice to me > was that if I already don't know Perl, don't learn it. They said to take > the Java route. They also were fond of PHP. In a nutshell, they said Java > will phase out most large perl implementations (new clients tend to be > developed in java, old code is redone, etc.) The place I worked at over the summer did something similar. They have a large existing infrastructure written in Perl/CGI + Apache, with the odd thing using a Postgres backend. This was all running on a big Sun E450 (obviously running Solaris). When I started working, they had been moving things over to Java Servlets - using JServ. They were also getting much better hardware. However, the Servlets seemed really unstable. JServ would die for no apparent reason. It seemed like a lot of the staff felt that perhaps moving to Java was a mistake. Whether their problems were the fault of JServ, Java, or incompetent programmers/admins, I don't know. (BTW, Postgres was rock stable. We never had any problems with it). So I really haven't had enough experience with Java Servlets, since Perl is more than sufficient and I know it works well. I personally do my web programming in mod_perl, usually with DBI and Apache::DBI. I love Perl, and I've had very few problems. I agree with someone who mentioned mod_perl is tough to get into - it takes a while to get up to speed. As for PHP being embedded into HTML, the same thing is possible with Perl - but you also get TMTOWTDI. The following all embed Perl in HTML, to some degree: HTML::Template HTML::Embperl HTML::Mason (as someone mentioned) ePerl And probably a few others I haven't heard of. You're free to pick and choose whichever suites you best. I'd recommend Perl, but it's really just a matter of personal taste. Have fun, Neil -- Neil Conway <neilconway@home.com> Get my GnuPG key from: http://klamath.dyndns.org/mykey.asc Encrypted mail welcomed Hard work never hurt anyone - but why take chances?
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> One of our competitors sunk well over a million bucks into Sun/Oracle
> hardware, and thought they'd be "cutting-edge" by doing all of their
> back-end programming in Java. The end result is that our $20,000 cluster
> using Linux, Postgres, and Perl out-performs their setup by a very
> significant factor, and also has a greater potential for scalability. It's
> also a lot easier for us to find programmers than they can, and we turn out
> new products faster than they do.
I really appreciate Perl CGI because it's an amazingly fast
development environment, much faster than any Java-based system
I've seen. Just edit the script and test; there's no compiling,
no copying or restarting of servers. mod_perl isn't quite
as good, since you have to restart Apache, but Apache restarts
instantly, so that's not a really serious concern. Java's
compilation time and the regular need to restart the Java
environment really slow down development work. (I've yet
to find a servlet system whose "automatic reload" feature
truly works as advertised.)
I've also noticed that people who don't know Perl really
tend to underestimate how many really good Perl developers
there are.
- Tim
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Tim Kientzle wrote:
> > One of our competitors sunk well over a million bucks into Sun/Oracle
> > hardware, and thought they'd be "cutting-edge" by doing all of their
> > back-end programming in Java. The end result is that our $20,000 cluster
> > using Linux, Postgres, and Perl out-performs their setup by a very
> > significant factor, and also has a greater potential for scalability. It's
> > also a lot easier for us to find programmers than they can, and we turn out
> > new products faster than they do.
>
> I really appreciate Perl CGI because it's an amazingly fast
> development environment, much faster than any Java-based system
> I've seen. Just edit the script and test; there's no compiling,
> no copying or restarting of servers. mod_perl isn't quite
> as good, since you have to restart Apache, but Apache restarts
> instantly, so that's not a really serious concern. Java's
> compilation time and the regular need to restart the Java
> environment really slow down development work. (I've yet
> to find a servlet system whose "automatic reload" feature
> truly works as advertised.)
>
> I've also noticed that people who don't know Perl really
> tend to underestimate how many really good Perl developers
> there are.
>
> - Tim
Boy am I glad you lads posted these replies - I'd hate to think I've
wasted all this time learning an 'obsolete' language. ;-)
For my money (about two cents US): The combination of Bunce (DBI),
Mergl (DBD::Pg) and Lincoln Stein (CGI.pm) is a winner. Factor in
mod_perl and I'm content to write my code in a 'legacy' language!
(Why does that comment from Mark Twain ping from here to there in
my sensorium? Hmm...I wonder if Larry Wall knew Mark Twain - back
in the perl heyday...?)
TFIC - and Cheers! Best of luck to the author of the original post,
whatever language(s) you opt for...
Tom
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> We have been using JSP/J2EE with PostgreSQL for around a year now on > multiple projects. It is my opinion that J2EE is the most robust programming > model for web development. I would qualify this by saying that for simpler > web applications, J2EE can be overkill, and scripted solutions such as PHP > are much faster and easier to use. Different tools for different situations. > > The PostgreSQL JDBC driver is a VERY important to our work. I think the work > that has been done so far is good, but it seems that there is still a lot of > confusion over versions, where to get the driver, and the status of current > bugs (such as the Timestamp issue). I would like to see the JDBC driver get > more priority, because I think it is critical to a lot of developers out > there. Agreed. JDBC needs a major development push. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > We have been using JSP/J2EE with PostgreSQL for around a year now on > > multiple projects. It is my opinion that J2EE is the most robust programming > > model for web development. I would qualify this by saying that for simpler > > web applications, J2EE can be overkill, and scripted solutions such as PHP > > are much faster and easier to use. Different tools for different situations. > > > > The PostgreSQL JDBC driver is a VERY important to our work. I think the work > > that has been done so far is good, but it seems that there is still a lot of > > confusion over versions, where to get the driver, and the status of current > > bugs (such as the Timestamp issue). I would like to see the JDBC driver get > > more priority, because I think it is critical to a lot of developers out > > there. > > Agreed. JDBC needs a major development push. I've chatted with Peter about this over the past week, and mentioned that bringing in a second developer with CVS access might be an option to pursue ... the fun part is, who else has both the time and the knowledge to deal with committing changes to the source tree? Adam?
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> >
> > Agreed. JDBC needs a major development push.
>
> I've chatted with Peter about this over the past week, and mentioned that
> bringing in a second developer with CVS access might be an option to
> pursue ... the fun part is, who else has both the time and the knowledge
> to deal with committing changes to the source tree?
Agreed that the JDBC needs more attention. Maybe post an announcement for a
co-maintainer, reviewer and developer for the JDBC driver ?
Other things that might also help is consider the structure of the
project. Maybe one should create a JDBC subproject where latest and
greatest information abut JDBC is available. Having a mailing list
dedicated to JDBC could be step in this direction, but FAQs, status
information, todos, etc. would also be helpful. The idea is to create a
"subcommunity" of PostgreSQL for the people interested in JDBC.
regards,
Gunnar
From: "The Hermit Hacker" <scrappy@hub.org>: > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > > Agreed. JDBC needs a major development push. > > I've chatted with Peter about this over the past week, and mentioned that > bringing in a second developer with CVS access might be an option to > pursue ... the fun part is, who else has both the time and the knowledge > to deal with committing changes to the source tree? > > Adam? I think the JDBC driver is an intimidating project, because it requires PostgreSQL-specific knowledge, Java skills, and familiarity with the JDBC specs. Luckily, this driver is a pure Java implementation, which makes it easier for us Java-centric programmers. Although we are chronically overextended these days, I would like to pledge my development support to improving the JDBC driver. However, my experience is overwhelmingly on the "consumer" side of a JDBC driver, not on the internal or database side. I would need some direction to be an effective contributor at this point. To-do lists that focus on known trouble spots or weaknesses would be very helpful. - Adam ------------------- Adam Rossi President, PlatinumSolutions, Inc. adam.rossi@platinumsolutions.com http://www.platinumsolutions.com P.O. Box 31 Oakton, VA 22124 PH: 703.352.8576 FAX: 703.352.8577
"Adam Rossi" <adam.rossi@platinumsolutions.com> writes:
> Although we are chronically overextended these days, I would like to pledge
> my development support to improving the JDBC driver. However, my experience
> is overwhelmingly on the "consumer" side of a JDBC driver, not on the
> internal or database side.
About the same background as I have. Been working with JDBC programming
for 3 years and my main interest in the JDBC driver will be as a
consumer. I do however hope to contribute useful bugfixes, improvements
etc. when I have the time and funding to do it.
regards,
Gunnar
I'm using postgres through JDBC as the backend for my research so I have a great interest in having a better driver. I'll pitch in. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Travis Bauer | CS Grad Student | IU |www.cs.indiana.edu/~trbauer ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 17 Oct 2000, Gunnar R|nning wrote: > The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes: > > > > > > > Agreed. JDBC needs a major development push. > > > > I've chatted with Peter about this over the past week, and mentioned that > > bringing in a second developer with CVS access might be an option to > > pursue ... the fun part is, who else has both the time and the knowledge > > to deal with committing changes to the source tree? > > Agreed that the JDBC needs more attention. Maybe post an announcement for a > co-maintainer, reviewer and developer for the JDBC driver ? > > Other things that might also help is consider the structure of the > project. Maybe one should create a JDBC subproject where latest and > greatest information abut JDBC is available. Having a mailing list > dedicated to JDBC could be step in this direction, but FAQs, status > information, todos, etc. would also be helpful. The idea is to create a > "subcommunity" of PostgreSQL for the people interested in JDBC. > > regards, > > Gunnar >
Gunnar R|nning <gunnar@candleweb.no> writes:
> Other things that might also help is consider the structure of the
> project. Maybe one should create a JDBC subproject where latest and
> greatest information abut JDBC is available. Having a mailing list
> dedicated to JDBC could be step in this direction, but FAQs, status
> information, todos, etc. would also be helpful. The idea is to create a
> "subcommunity" of PostgreSQL for the people interested in JDBC.
My two cents: I think there are already more than enough Postgres-
related mailing lists. I recommend keeping JDBC discussion on the
pgsql-interfaces list for now. When and if it threatens to overwhelm
other discussion on -interfaces, that'll be time enough to establish
a separate sublist --- but for now, I fear that'd just cause unnecessary
fragmentation of the discussions and the community.
But I do agree that it'd make sense to set up an identifiable website
and separate CVS server for JDBC, because there's no real good reason
to tie JDBC release cycles to release cycles of the core Postgres code.
There have already been some off-list discussions of this idea...
regards, tom lane