Thread: News links, post 'em here
eWeek, shortening because it's a horrbile URL: http://goo.gl/eHozWI -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Hackernews seems to be promoting us a lot, atleast on Facebook. Regards, Atri On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > > eWeek, shortening because it's a horrbile URL: > http://goo.gl/eHozWI > > > -- > Josh Berkus > PostgreSQL Experts Inc. > http://pgexperts.com > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-advocacy mailing list (pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-advocacy -- Regards, Atri l'apprenant
On 09/09/2013 09:42 AM, Atri Sharma wrote: > Hackernews seems to be promoting us a lot, atleast on Facebook. Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6353140 Mostly complimentary. People with accounts, vote it up. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 09/09/2013 09:51 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > On 09/09/2013 09:42 AM, Atri Sharma wrote: >> Hackernews seems to be promoting us a lot, atleast on Facebook. > > Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6353140 > > Mostly complimentary. People with accounts, vote it up. > More: http://www.zdnet.com/postgressql-the-other-big-open-source-database-has-a-new-release-7000020366/ http://www.pcworld.com/article/2048423/postgresql-93-communicates-well-with-others.html German: http://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/PostgreSQL-9-3-veroeffentlicht-1953017.html Italian (Gabriele republished the press release): http://www.comunicati-stampa.net/com/rilasciato-postgresql-9-3.html This article in Dutch isn't about 9.3, but it is really cool, and a good reference user: http://www.computable.nl/artikel/wie_gunt_wat/4810932/3152533/pinkroccade-migreert-waalwijk-naar-postgresql.html Great work so far, RCs and Advocacy geeks! -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 09/09/2013 06:39 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > eWeek, shortening because it's a horrbile URL: > http://goo.gl/eHozWI Heise, in German: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/PostgreSQL-9-3-veroeffentlicht-1953017.html -- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL User Group European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 09/09/2013 12:13 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > On 09/09/2013 06:39 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> >> eWeek, shortening because it's a horrbile URL: >> http://goo.gl/eHozWI > > Heise, in German: > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/PostgreSQL-9-3-veroeffentlicht-1953017.html > French: http://pro.clubic.com/it-business/base-de-donnees/actualite-583204-postgresql-9-3.html -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Article in Japanese: http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/13/postgresql_931.html -- Michael
And ... Russian: http://www.cybersecurity.ru/data/181001.html http://www.pcweek.ru/foss/article/detail.php?ID=154886 Japanese: http://sourceforge.jp/magazine/13/09/10/134000 Bulgarian: http://4press.idg.bg/7946_izleze_postgresql_93 Again, a terrific job by the RCs and translators! -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
And there's more. I'm posting a few links at a time, or I hit our spam filters. Time to start a wiki page. Awesome blog by Matt Asay: http://readwrite.com/2013/09/10/postresql-hits-93-new-levels-of-popularity-with-the-cool-kids#awesm=~oh3JR2UUu389l3 -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Hello
here is my article in Czech languagehttp://www.root.cz/clanky/novinky-v-pripravovanem-postgresql-9-3/
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=cs&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.root.cz%2Fclanky%2Fnovinky-v-pripravovanem-postgresql-9-3%2F
2013/9/10 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
And there's more. I'm posting a few links at a time, or I hit our spam
filters. Time to start a wiki page.
Awesome blog by Matt Asay:
http://readwrite.com/2013/09/10/postresql-hits-93-new-levels-of-popularity-with-the-cool-kids#awesm=~oh3JR2UUu389l3
--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com
--
Sent via pgsql-advocacy mailing list (pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-advocacy
All, So I've started a Link page: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgresql93press Please post new articles there. Thanks! -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 11/09/2013 01:49, Josh Berkus a écrit : > All, > > So I've started a Link page: > > https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgresql93press > > Please post new articles there. Thanks! > Here's a few more French links : https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgresql93press#French
> Here's a few more French links : > https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgresql93press#French You guys in PostgreSQL.Fr do a spectacular job of reaching the French press. How do you do it? Is it something we could do elsewhere? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 11/09/2013 19:33, Josh Berkus a écrit : > >> Here's a few more French links : >> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgresql93press#French > > You guys in PostgreSQL.Fr do a spectacular job of reaching the French > press. How do you do it? Is it something we could do elsewhere? > Thanks ! But I'm not sure exactly how we do it :) First I have to say that the French media is very active. Even if some French IT people can speak English, I believe that most prefer reading news in French. My guess is that in other countries, like say Germany, engineers are more fluent in English and they tend to go directly to slashdot, Hacker news, etc. to get their daily dose of information. In the other hand, French people are strongly attached to their language and this may be part of the explanation. Anyway the same explanation works for the French documentation too. Lots of people here feel the need to have a translated documentation whereas in other countries it's not that necessary and thus launching a translation team is harder. The other point is that we're spreading the word from several points. There's of course Stéphane and other guys doing a great job translating the press release. And in parallel, local PG companies are amplifying the message by sending it at the same time. Speaking for DALIBO, we're using our PR company to relay the PG press release and adding some "French-centric" content (some quotes, a statement from a government agency,etc.). I think 2NDQUADRANT France does the same even though I'm not sure if they use a PR company or not. All in all, on the release day French IT journalists will receive the announcement from at least 3 different sources. Which is good. It gives more credit to the information and the journalist are more comfortable to adapt and relay the news. I'm not sure how this situation can be reproduced elsewhere and I won't give lessons to anyone :) But my guess is that when we achieve joint efforts like that, when we have multiple companies backing a community initiative at same time, it is a very strong message. A message even stronger that the announcement itself. If only we could manage to gather PR and marketing people from companies involved in this community. Make them synchronize and work together on common projects such as a new version release. Just like hackers work together on code. Who knows ? Maybe we just need an "advocacy summit" during the next PGCon or another event ? Invite marketing people from Heroku, EDB, Red Hat, Salesforce et al. Make it work like the developper meeting or the cluster hackers summit... I'm probably just daydreaming but if we could inject a small dose of the hacker/collaborative culture to these people we could make tremendous things to promote PostgreSQL. -- damien
On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:35 PM, damien clochard wrote: > Who knows ? Maybe we just need an "advocacy summit" during the next > PGCon or another event ? Invite marketing people from Heroku, EDB, Red > Hat, Salesforce et al. Make it work like the developper meeting or the > cluster hackers summit... FWIW in the past I've spoken to several of the marketing people from some of the above mentioned companies and all were interestedin finding ways to help collaborate with the community to increase our market presence. The issue in terms ofgetting all of us and them into the same room is just that - they may not be able to attend PGCon but can go to one ofthe other conferences. With that said, given our strong marketing / advertising presence in NYC I would be happy to help facilitate some sort of"marketing summit" around our NYC conference even for this go around since we have enough advanced notice to do so. Jonathan
Jonathan, > FWIW in the past I've spoken to several of the marketing people from > some of the above mentioned companies and all were interested in > finding ways to help collaborate with the community to increase our > market presence. The issue in terms of getting all of us and them > into the same room is just that - they may not be able to attend > PGCon but can go to one of the other conferences. That would be interesting. Speaking from the community advocacy side of things, collaborating with our corporate partners for PR stuff has been so difficult I've given up on it. It would be interesting to see what they think would work. > > With that said, given our strong marketing / advertising presence in > NYC I would be happy to help facilitate some sort of "marketing > summit" around our NYC conference even for this go around since we > have enough advanced notice to do so. As part of NYCPg next year? That sounds good. Maybe we could back-to-back it with PyCon in Montreal so that I could make a round-trip? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> writes: > The other point is that we're spreading the word from several points. > There's of course Stéphane and other guys doing a great job translating Stéphane and I did the translating (as has been usual for at least a couple of releases now), thanks. And as the “French Representative” (or whatever his role is actually named) Stéphane then gave the news to his press contacts. One of them wanted to interview a french contributor to the project, and was led to me. > the press release. And in parallel, local PG companies are amplifying > the message by sending it at the same time. Speaking for DALIBO, we're > using our PR company to relay the PG press release and adding some > "French-centric" content (some quotes, a statement from a government It's pretty clear that we have 2 kinds of french articles available to cover the news, some of them are talking about PostgreSQL the Open Source project and some of them are explaining to potential customers who to contact if they want to use Ora2PG. The only reason why the french news coverage looks great in the wiki listing is because both kinds of news are listed as community efforts. Having both efforts coexist is of course perfectly fine. I just think we should not mix some companies private marketing with the community communication, even when the appeal of surfing on the annual big news item makes them happen at the same time. At least not when trying to understand how to achieve such a result in other countries. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support
> > It's pretty clear that we have 2 kinds of french articles available to > cover the news, some of them are talking about PostgreSQL the Open > Source project and some of them are explaining to potential customers > who to contact if they want to use Ora2PG. > > The only reason why the french news coverage looks great in the wiki > listing is because both kinds of news are listed as community efforts. > Dimitri, I don't understand what you mean by this. Anyone promoting the PostgreSQL release is part of the "community effort", whether you're a DBA doing it on your spare time or you're a PR professional paid to do it. So I don't see any reason for this corporate/community opposition. Like I said journalists need multiple sources. When we release a new version, if they can get the information from multiple points and in various formats, this will give more value to the message and make it more relevant. Journalists will also have more material to write their articles. Like I said I think we should do PR like we do code. When there a message to send, we should fork it and hack it. BSD-style. We're never gonna beat Oracle PR if we do things like they do. Instead we need to invent a better way to communicate, using our assets : multiplicity, creativity and collaborative culture. Speaking for DALIBO, we do our own translation of the press release, then we add some local-related content (for example last year we added a paragraph bout French government agencies switching to PostgreSQL), we put some additional quotes and we tell journalist we're available for an interview. Everything we add is focused on promoting PostgreSQL and it's community... And of course, we provide a link to the original version so that journalist can compare our content and the official one. I understand that you are afraid that some companies could "hijack" the community efforts and inject their own marketing in the process BUT : 1/ Journalists are not that dumb :) They don't copy/paste press release without reading it. They receive dozens of press releases all day long and they can tell what's advertising and what's real news. That's their job ;-) 2/ IT journalists are aware of the nature of the PostgreSQL. At least all the ones I talked to. They know that it's not owned by a single company. They know that some tools are open source and other are not. 3/ PostgreSQL companies are not marketing bullies :) We all know the difference between advertising corporate services and promoting the project. I'm not saying there's never been any problem but I believe it was always unintentional. And it can always be discussed on pgsql-advocacy or pgsql-www That being said if you have problem with the way this release was treated by the French media: you can either contact the journalists directly or express the problem more clearly here and give examples of what you think is inappropriate. Regards, -- Damien
On 09/12/2013 09:27 AM, damien clochard wrote: > > > > 3/ PostgreSQL companies are not marketing bullies :) We all know the > difference between advertising corporate services and promoting the > project. I'm not saying there's never been any problem but I believe it > was always unintentional. And it can always be discussed on > pgsql-advocacy or pgsql-www Just curious but, how do you think the community would react if EDB or CMD was quoted the way Dalibo was quoted? Consider the following: From: http://www.journaldunet.com/developpeur/outils/postgresql-9-3-big-data-0913.shtml " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL databases, "says Dalibo." " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL databases, "says Command Prompt. " From: http://www.programmez.com/actualites.php?titre_actu=Sortie-de-PostgreSQL-93--Interoperabilite-NoSQL-et-vues-materialisees-!&id_actu=13825 According to Jean-Paul Argudo, founder of the site www.postgresql.fr Dalibo specialist and director of company in France PostgreSQL " PostgreSQL is more than ever the alternative # 1 in Oracle. New in version 9.3 are the perfect illustration including materialized views, indexing regular expression and management of federated data. Besides the major accounts are not wrong and turn increasingly to PostgreSQL to review their licensing policies while maintaining an innovative and robust RDBMS. " According to Joshua D. Drake, President of United States PostgreSQL, Command Prompt Lead Consultant and President of the company in the United States.... At least in the states, I think the community would have an absolute fit if I would to throw that around in the press. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 509-416-6579 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, Postgres-XC, @cmdpromptinc For my dreams of your image that blossoms a rose in the deeps of my heart. - W.B. Yeats
> Just curious but, how do you think the community would react if EDB or > CMD was quoted the way Dalibo was quoted? Consider the following: > > From: > http://www.journaldunet.com/developpeur/outils/postgresql-9-3-big-data-0913.shtml > > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > databases, "says Dalibo." > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > databases, "says Command Prompt. " What's the problem with that? Seems OK to me. Heck, there's three companies quoted in the release itself. And I'm quoted in a number of articles, and even if my title isn't used, it doesn't take much of a search to lead to PGX. In the past, we've coordinated with EDB and Heroku press releases around release time as well. I didn't do that this year because coordinating with the larger companies is a lot of effort and I didn't have the energy/time, not because it's inherently a bad idea. If the PostgreSQL Project was a proprietary company, we'd be coordinating major release announcements with all of our major "partners" to have them announce support/products as well, for maximum impact. PR-wise, our relationship with distributors and service companies isn't that different. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 09/12/2013 10:11 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > >> Just curious but, how do you think the community would react if EDB or >> CMD was quoted the way Dalibo was quoted? Consider the following: >> >> From: >> http://www.journaldunet.com/developpeur/outils/postgresql-9-3-big-data-0913.shtml >> >> >> " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with >> other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL >> databases, "says Dalibo." >> >> " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with >> other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL >> databases, "says Command Prompt. " > > What's the problem with that? Seems OK to me. > > Heck, there's three companies quoted in the release itself. And I'm > quoted in a number of articles, and even if my title isn't used, it > doesn't take much of a search to lead to PGX. > I am not saying there is. I was honestly submitting it to the wider community for discussion. I note however that you didn't comment on the second one which is actually more sketchy than the first. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 509-416-6579 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, Postgres-XC, @cmdpromptinc For my dreams of your image that blossoms a rose in the deeps of my heart. - W.B. Yeats
> I am not saying there is. I was honestly submitting it to the wider > community for discussion. I note however that you didn't comment on the > second one which is actually more sketchy than the first. How is it any different from: "PostgreSQL 9.3 provides features that as an app developer I can use immediately: better JSON functionality, regular expression indexing, and easily federating databases with the Postgres foreign data wrapper. I have no idea how I completed projects without 9.3," said Jonathan S. Katz, CTO of VenueBook. ... which is *in* the press release? I guess I really can't find the issue here. Reps of companies saying good things about PostgreSQL is pretty much an unalloyed good -- regardless of whether or not they toot their own horn alongside. It would be something different if JPA was claiming credit for features he didn't work on. But he's not (and I'd suspect Google translate first if it even *looked* like he were, because that's not a JPA-like thing to do). And for that matter, people who work for support companies *did* work on features for 9.3, and if they want to trumpet their own role in those features, that's fine too. Contributing to PostgreSQL for companies is a symbiotic relationship; the project gets features and resources, and the companies get stuff too: a better database, open source cred, and PR. Without that symbiosis, PostgreSQL goes back to being a hobby project. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 09/12/2013 10:54 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > >> I am not saying there is. I was honestly submitting it to the wider >> community for discussion. I note however that you didn't comment on the >> second one which is actually more sketchy than the first. > > How is it any different from: It is different because of who Dalibo is. They stand to commercially benefit from being associated with a .Org release like that. > > Contributing to PostgreSQL for companies is a symbiotic relationship; > the project gets features and resources, and the companies get stuff > too: a better database, open source cred, and PR. Without that > symbiosis, PostgreSQL goes back to being a hobby project. > I don't disagree. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 509-416-6579 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, Postgres-XC, @cmdpromptinc For my dreams of your image that blossoms a rose in the deeps of my heart. - W.B. Yeats
On 12/09/2013 18:46, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On 09/12/2013 09:27 AM, damien clochard wrote: >> >> > >> >> 3/ PostgreSQL companies are not marketing bullies :) We all know the >> difference between advertising corporate services and promoting the >> project. I'm not saying there's never been any problem but I believe it >> was always unintentional. And it can always be discussed on >> pgsql-advocacy or pgsql-www > > Just curious but, how do you think the community would react if EDB or > CMD was quoted the way Dalibo was quoted? Consider the following: > > From: > http://www.journaldunet.com/developpeur/outils/postgresql-9-3-big-data-0913.shtml > > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > databases, "says Dalibo." > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > databases, "says Command Prompt. " > > From: > > http://www.programmez.com/actualites.php?titre_actu=Sortie-de-PostgreSQL-93--Interoperabilite-NoSQL-et-vues-materialisees-!&id_actu=13825 > > > According to Jean-Paul Argudo, founder of the site www.postgresql.fr > Dalibo specialist and director of company in France PostgreSQL " > PostgreSQL is more than ever the alternative # 1 in Oracle. New in > version 9.3 are the perfect illustration including materialized views, > indexing regular expression and management of federated data. Besides > the major accounts are not wrong and turn increasingly to PostgreSQL to > review their licensing policies while maintaining an innovative and > robust RDBMS. " To be transparent on this, I work for Dalibo. But I think the rest of this tread is a bid misguided by this second translation. I don't really know where this translation comes from (looks like an automated translation to me), but it is inacurate: Selon Jean-Paul Argudo, fondateur du site www.postgresql.fr et directeur de DALIBO société spécialiste de PostgreSQL en France, « PostgreSQL est plus que jamais l'alternative n°1 à Oracle... Should be translated as: According to Jean-Paul Argudo, founder of the site www.postgresql.fr and directory of Dalibo, a company specialized on PostgreSQL in France, "PostgreSQL is more than ever the #1 alternative to Oracle... Nowhere it is said that Dalibo is the French branch of PostgreSQL or anything like that. Only that Dalibo is specialized on PostgreSQL, and is french. I hope this helps clarifying this. The rest of the points discussed are of course valid ...
First, I want to apologize if this email rubs anyone the wrong direction. If it does, my apologies. This is not intended to be adversarial to anyone. I do intend to be a bit candid, though.
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 9:27 AM, damien clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
Dimitri,
>
> It's pretty clear that we have 2 kinds of french articles available to
> cover the news, some of them are talking about PostgreSQL the Open
> Source project and some of them are explaining to potential customers
> who to contact if they want to use Ora2PG.
>
> The only reason why the french news coverage looks great in the wiki
> listing is because both kinds of news are listed as community efforts.
>
I don't understand what you mean by this. Anyone promoting the PostgreSQL release is part of the "community effort", whether you're a DBA doing it on your spare time or you're a PR professional paid to do it. So I don't see any reason for this corporate/community opposition.
Agreed.
Like I said journalists need multiple sources. When we release a new version, if they can get the information from multiple points and in various formats, this will give more value to the message and make it more relevant. Journalists will also have more material to write their articles.
Like I said I think we should do PR like we do code. When there a message to send, we should fork it and hack it. BSD-style. We're never gonna beat Oracle PR if we do things like they do. Instead we need to invent a better way to communicate, using our assets : multiplicity, creativity and collaborative culture.
Agreed there too.
Speaking for DALIBO, we do our own translation of the press release, then we add some local-related content (for example last year we added a paragraph bout French government agencies switching to PostgreSQL), we put some additional quotes and we tell journalist we're available for an interview. Everything we add is focused on promoting PostgreSQL and it's community... And of course, we provide a link to the original version so that journalist can compare our content and the official one.
I understand that you are afraid that some companies could "hijack" the community efforts and inject their own marketing in the process BUT :
1/ Journalists are not that dumb :) They don't copy/paste press release without reading it. They receive dozens of press releases all day long and they can tell what's advertising and what's real news. That's their job ;-)
Yes it does happen. In fact I would expect it to happen. I would even go so far and say it is healthy that it happens so long as many companies get their say in. (Being clear: I am not opposed to journalists saying "these folks provide support" just that I prefer them to offer a list if they are going to do so that has more than one name.)
For example, I have started contacting journalists who only mention a single company for support and suggesting that it is worth noting that many companies offer very good support, and providing a list of a few.
So I say, "Hijack away. Just make sure everyone gets a shot." In other words, it's one thing to promote. It's something else to dominate. I am not saying there is a problem in France, just discussing more generally.
2/ IT journalists are aware of the nature of the PostgreSQL. At least all the ones I talked to. They know that it's not owned by a single company. They know that some tools are open source and other are not.
3/ PostgreSQL companies are not marketing bullies :) We all know the difference between advertising corporate services and promoting the project. I'm not saying there's never been any problem but I believe it was always unintentional. And it can always be discussed on pgsql-advocacy or pgsql-www
That being said if you have problem with the way this release was treated by the French media: you can either contact the journalists directly or express the problem more clearly here and give examples of what you think is inappropriate.
Not discussing the French here, but here in SE Asia I have seen what happens when one company dominates the discussion about PostgreSQL and I don't think it is good for our community long run. This is to some extent inevitable in many parts of the world since the PostgreSQL community is nothing if not stealthy. However it introduces some inevitable imbalances in the discussion
I think it is worth acknowledging that this can and will happen and that those of us who are regional contacts have some responsibility to ensure an open flow of contributions into the press process.
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Regards,
--
Damien
--
Sent via pgsql-advocacy mailing list (pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-advocacy
Hi there, Just back from .. internet connexion problems, actualy :-) Le vendredi 13 septembre 2013 à 15:20 +0200, Marc Cousin a écrit : > On 12/09/2013 18:46, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > On 09/12/2013 09:27 AM, damien clochard wrote: > >> > >> > > > >> > >> 3/ PostgreSQL companies are not marketing bullies :) We all know the > >> difference between advertising corporate services and promoting the > >> project. I'm not saying there's never been any problem but I believe it > >> was always unintentional. And it can always be discussed on > >> pgsql-advocacy or pgsql-www > > > > Just curious but, how do you think the community would react if EDB or > > CMD was quoted the way Dalibo was quoted? Consider the following: > > > > From: > > http://www.journaldunet.com/developpeur/outils/postgresql-9-3-big-data-0913.shtml > > > > > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > > databases, "says Dalibo." > > > > " PostgreSQL 9.3 is placed under the sign of interoperability with > > other storage engines, whether others such as Oracle RDBMS or NoSQL > > databases, "says Command Prompt. " > > > > From: > > > > http://www.programmez.com/actualites.php?titre_actu=Sortie-de-PostgreSQL-93--Interoperabilite-NoSQL-et-vues-materialisees-!&id_actu=13825 > > > > > > According to Jean-Paul Argudo, founder of the site www.postgresql.fr > > Dalibo specialist and director of company in France PostgreSQL " > > PostgreSQL is more than ever the alternative # 1 in Oracle. New in > > version 9.3 are the perfect illustration including materialized views, > > indexing regular expression and management of federated data. Besides > > the major accounts are not wrong and turn increasingly to PostgreSQL to > > review their licensing policies while maintaining an innovative and > > robust RDBMS. " > > To be transparent on this, I work for Dalibo. But I think the rest of > this tread is a bid misguided by this second translation. > > I don't really know where this translation comes from (looks like an > automated translation to me), but it is inacurate: > > Selon Jean-Paul Argudo, fondateur du site www.postgresql.fr et directeur > de DALIBO société spécialiste de PostgreSQL en France, « PostgreSQL est > plus que jamais l'alternative n°1 à Oracle... > > Should be translated as: > > According to Jean-Paul Argudo, founder of the site www.postgresql.fr and > directory of Dalibo, a company specialized on PostgreSQL in France, > "PostgreSQL is more than ever the #1 alternative to Oracle... > > > Nowhere it is said that Dalibo is the French branch of PostgreSQL or > anything like that. Only that Dalibo is specialized on PostgreSQL, and > is french. I hope this helps clarifying this. Thanks for this answer to this thread Marc. "traduttore-mentore" has they say in Italian: The one translating is a lyar :-D So, JD, on this one, I guess you owe me a beer for ever thinking I could be that kind of guy telling such a bullshit :-) I'm egocentric but not this much ! :-) > The rest of the points discussed are of course valid ... About this : On 12/09/2013 18:46, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >It is different because of who Dalibo is. They stand to commercially >benefit from being associated with a .Org release like that. That is really true for every PostgreSQL company. But the only way we have to be associated to the project respecfully towards our community is by our contributions whatever they are (code, reviews, events, sponsorship, advocacy, education, etc..). Thats the only way to be in the all of fame (http://www.postgresql.org/about/sponsors/) for a company like ours. AFAIK, *every* PostgreSQL knows the rules and play quite well with it. Cheers, -- Jean-Paul Argudo www.PostgreSQL.fr www.Dalibo.com
On 09/13/2013 07:03 AM, Jean-Paul Argudo wrote: > About this : > > On 12/09/2013 18:46, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> It is different because of who Dalibo is. They stand to commercially >> benefit from being associated with a .Org release like that. > > That is really true for every PostgreSQL company. > Yes but the comparison that JoshB brought up was not a PostgreSQL Company. It was just a company that uses PostgreSQL. A very different thing. > But the only way we have to be associated to the project respecfully > towards our community is by our contributions whatever they are (code, > reviews, events, sponsorship, advocacy, education, etc..). > > Thats the only way to be in the all of fame > (http://www.postgresql.org/about/sponsors/) for a company like ours. > > AFAIK, *every* PostgreSQL knows the rules and play quite well with it. And again, I am not even saying there is a problem. I was just trying to provoke some discussion because I know there are some people that are unhappy with it. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 509-416-6579 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, Postgres-XC, @cmdpromptinc For my dreams of your image that blossoms a rose in the deeps of my heart. - W.B. Yeats
On 09/12/2013 12:43 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote:> Having both efforts > coexist is of course perfectly fine. I just think we > should not mix some companies private marketing with the community > communication, even when the appeal of surfing on the annual big news > item makes them happen at the same time. At least not when trying to > understand how to achieve such a result in other countries. I don't see a justification for that criticism based on anything in the two linked articles which quote JPA. If there's other articles, not linked from the wiki, which you're referring to, then please link them on this thread. I am reading them in translation, though, so maybe I'm not seeing something which is more of an issue in French. Note that in the past we've had PR from EDB promoting various releases, which are generally all over quotes from EDB staff. And we've linked those, sometimes with a note. We just don't have that this year. The only times I've had words with EDB PR was when language in their releases seemed to take credit for PostgreSQL features which EDB staff had not been involved in, and that hasn't happened in quite a while. Nor do I see that in the two Dalibo articles. Now, if you wanted to section stuff off on the wiki, be my guest. I think it doesn't hurt to have notation of which articles were derived from corporate press releases as opposed to community ones. The only thing I could see getting upset about is if "founder of www.postgresql.fr" is inaccurate (I don't personally know who did what first). That does seem like an odd thing to mention as your CV, though, JPA; seems like "board member of PostgreSQL France" would make more sense. On 09/13/2013 06:49 AM, Chris Travers wrote: > For example, I have started contacting journalists who only mention a > single company for support and suggesting that it is worth noting that many > companies offer very good support, and providing a list of a few. That's a good approach. Keep in mind that reporters who, for example, only talk about EnterpriseDB, are probably unaware that there are multiple postgresql-supporting companies. Our "round table" approach for our project is not the standard (event though it should be). > Not discussing the French here, but here in SE Asia I have seen what > happens when one company dominates the discussion about PostgreSQL and I > don't think it is good for our community long run. This is to some extent > inevitable in many parts of the world since the PostgreSQL community is > nothing if not stealthy. However it introduces some inevitable imbalances > in the discussion On the other hand, it's better than not having PostgreSQL promoted in that country at all, which may be our other option in many of the countries with smaller tech sectors. > I think it is worth acknowledging that this can and will happen and that > those of us who are regional contacts have some responsibility to ensure an > open flow of contributions into the press process. Yes, and that's part of the guidelines for RCs, and we've had pretty good adherence to it, as far as I know. Note that JPA is NOT the RC. JD Wrote: > Yes but the comparison that JoshB brought up was not a PostgreSQL > Company. It was just a company that uses PostgreSQL. A very different > thing. I don't know that that's much of a distinction. Free PR is free PR. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > think it doesn't hurt to have notation of which articles were derived > from corporate press releases as opposed to community ones. I agree. My understanding of your question about the apparent french success in reaching out to the press was limited to the community effort as opposed to the corporate press, and it seems to me that the answer you got is all about corporate press and throwing corporate money at it. My aim here was to make it obvious how to separate the two categories so that any french lesson on this PR effort would be limited to what we did actually achieve as a community: nothing impressive when compared to the other countries and organisations. > The only thing I could see getting upset about is if "founder of > www.postgresql.fr" is inaccurate (I don't personally know who did what > first). That does seem like an odd thing to mention as your CV, though, > JPA; seems like "board member of PostgreSQL France" would make more sense. Well JPA did create the postgresql.fr user group, that's for sure. I have quite fond memories of authoring the first set of web pages that he did host on his own server at home at a time where cloud computing was certainly not a commodity. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support
Hi, First of all I must apology every thing: my bad understanding, my very bad English speaking (that's my #1 shame) and my lack of expression. > It's pretty clear that we have 2 kinds of french articles available to > cover the news, some of them are talking about PostgreSQL the Open > Source project and some of them are explaining to potential customers > who to contact if they want to use Ora2PG. Please do not introduce Ora2Pg as a bullet when you want to fight. The only target of Ora2Pg is Oracle and for years now (v1.0 was May 2001, my first use of PostgreSQL was 1995-11-28) and at this time every one agrees that this is the right tool for that. My understanding is that you are trying to use an Ora2Pg feature that doesn't exist for now: the patriot feature :/ I used to work in good understanding and I'm not aware of that kind of fight, please use an other tool/subject for that. Ora2Pg is open for every one. The fact that Dalibo hired me brings lot of improvements to Ora2Pg that every one can benefit, that's a special thanks to Dalibo. There's no afterthought, no hidden feature. Please promote Ora2Pg in your 2ndquadrant communication, no one at Dalibo and even less me will say that you go beyond your rights. This project is open, free of charge, anyone can contribute and anyone can use it to promote an Oracle to PostgreSQL work. All of my spare time goes to open tools projects and not only PostgreSQL (see below), and I never faced this kind of aggressiveness. Please keep my work in a way that I can still understand it. Me and my children look at me as a PostgreSQL contributor, so please, even if you make degrees in the PostgreSQL contribution don't forget my stone. I was in Albania beach this summer and I don't recall that a stone was above an other, but what I remember is that there was lot of stones (yes, there is kind of Albania promote inside :-) ). Best regards, -- Gilles GPL tools at http://www.darold.net/ (squidclamav - sendmailanalyzer - ora2pg - modproxyhtml squidguardmgr - sysusage - squidanalyzer - pgbadger - pgformatter) -- Gilles Darold Administrateur de bases de données http://dalibo.com - http://dalibo.org
Dimitri, > I agree. My understanding of your question about the apparent french > success in reaching out to the press was limited to the community effort > as opposed to the corporate press, and it seems to me that the answer > you got is all about corporate press and throwing corporate money at it. > > My aim here was to make it obvious how to separate the two categories so > that any french lesson on this PR effort would be limited to what we did > actually achieve as a community: nothing impressive when compared to the > other countries and organisations. From my perspective, the companies are *part* of our community. So if we got a lot of press in France because we had companies echoing the press release message, then maybe that *is* something to emulate elsewhere. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
On 09/13/2013 06:49 AM, Chris Travers wrote:
> For example, I have started contacting journalists who only mention a
> single company for support and suggesting that it is worth noting that many
> companies offer very good support, and providing a list of a few.
That's a good approach. Keep in mind that reporters who, for example,
only talk about EnterpriseDB, are probably unaware that there are
multiple postgresql-supporting companies. Our "round table" approach
for our project is not the standard (event though it should be).
> Not discussing the French here, but here in SE Asia I have seen what
> happens when one company dominates the discussion about PostgreSQL and I
> don't think it is good for our community long run. This is to some extent
> inevitable in many parts of the world since the PostgreSQL community is
> nothing if not stealthy. However it introduces some inevitable imbalances
> in the discussion
On the other hand, it's better than not having PostgreSQL promoted in
that country at all, which may be our other option in many of the
countries with smaller tech sectors.
For sure. Note that I wasn't saying that companies should stop doing it. Otherwise we'd have a worse problem (namely nobody could move first and so nobody could move). It was just a caution, one dovetailing with my suggestion that hijacking was good as long as one to coordinating with others who might want to hijack too.
My perspective is that more voices here are always better.
> I think it is worth acknowledging that this can and will happen and that
> those of us who are regional contacts have some responsibility to ensure an
> open flow of contributions into the press process.
Yes, and that's part of the guidelines for RCs, and we've had pretty
good adherence to it, as far as I know. Note that JPA is NOT the RC.
JD Wrote:
> Yes but the comparison that JoshB brought up was not a PostgreSQL
> Company. It was just a company that uses PostgreSQL. A very different
> thing.
I don't know that that's much of a distinction. Free PR is free PR.
I think there is a distinction between seller and customer in that way, but that the distinction makes them complementary. One is a customer testimonial. The other is a vendor perspective. I think this gets a little weird with PostgreSQL because of our round table approach so we have a press release that represents a sort of artificially standardized generic vendor viewpoint but this exists in a context where we have many vendors and many customers. So I think they both add something, just very different things.
Again, I think more voices are almost always better.
--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Efficito: Hosted Accounting and ERP. Robust and Flexible. No vendor lock-in.
Gilles Darold <gilles.darold@dalibo.com> writes:
> Please do not introduce Ora2Pg as a bullet when you want to fight.
There's no fight. There's trying to understand a situation and recognise
it for what it is in order to be able to answer a question about how to
reproduce it in other areas. Here's my summary:
- Josh is happily surprised by the news coverage we got in France and
asks how did we manage that so that maybe other countries can
achieve the same;
- Damien proposes his ideal Marketing organisation (competitors
working together to promote our common product), giving some details
about how we did our news coverage;
- Dimitri tries to reconciliate the ideal with what happened for real
this time (community effort on the one hand, and independant private
company's campain to advertise Oracle migrations to PostgreSQL 9.3
more than anything else on the other hand, all happening at the same
time under the same PR opportunity);
- Josh says it's perfectly fine to call that a community effort as we
as a community welcome companies and their Marketing money.
> Ora2Pg is open for
> every one. The fact that Dalibo hired me brings lot of improvements to
> Ora2Pg that every one can benefit, that's a special thanks to Dalibo.
I know what you mean, believe me, as the main author of pgloader, which
is now a full MySQL migration tool too. And other contributions too.
I'm sorry about your feelings here. I really do appreciate your Open
Source efforts in Ora2Pg and your position as a contributor to the
PostgreSQL Community.
Let's have a beer (or two) next time you're in Paris and talk at lenghts
about our views of the community and how different companies are
throwing money at different parts of it.
Regards,
--
Dimitri Fontaine
http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support
Le 14/09/2013 00:43, Josh Berkus a écrit : > Dimitri, > > >> I agree. My understanding of your question about the apparent french >> success in reaching out to the press was limited to the community effort >> as opposed to the corporate press, and it seems to me that the answer >> you got is all about corporate press and throwing corporate money at it. >> >> My aim here was to make it obvious how to separate the two categories so >> that any french lesson on this PR effort would be limited to what we did >> actually achieve as a community: nothing impressive when compared to the >> other countries and organisations. > From my perspective, the companies are *part* of our community. So if > we got a lot of press in France because we had companies echoing the > press release message, then maybe that *is* something to emulate elsewhere. The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. Why not taking part into the community translation effort? -- Stéphane Schildknecht Loxodata - Conseil, expertise et formations
> > - Dimitri tries to reconciliate the ideal with what happened for real > this time (community effort on the one hand, and independant private > company's campain to advertise Oracle migrations to PostgreSQL 9.3 > more than anything else on the other hand, all happening at the same > time under the same PR opportunity); > Dimitri, I respect your opinion but when you say things like this you need to give some facts. So far you haven't provided any example supporting your claim and it is difficult to answer such an important claim without knowing what exactly you're talking about... So once again, if you found something inapproriate in the news coverage of PostgreSQL 9.3 in the French media, please give us more details. -- Damien
> > The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us > know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. > > Why not taking part into the community translation effort? > Stéphane, Please... We've been doing our own translations of the release announcements since 2009 at least. Do I need to remember you that at this time you were employed by DALIBO ? When the critical 9.2.4 security update was released you did not translate it. Do I need to remember you who did that translation ? Are you saying that you are not aware of this ? I don't understand why you're implying this. About taking part into the community translation effort, we'd be glad to do so. In fact I sent an e-mail to you and Jean-Christophe Arnu in september 2010 (exact date is 20/09/2010 16:36 if you want to search your archives) in this email I tell both of you that : - DALIBO is translating the release annoucements and distributing it to its clients, its newletter and its media contacts. - DALIBO does not want to replace the work of the Regional Contact. - our translation is different from the official press kit - our translation is licence under CC BY-NC-SA - we are ok to coordonate efforts toward the french media and include others companies in the process, namely 2nd Quadrant and Open Wide - We propose to organize a press conference - We propose to bring DALIBO's reference usecases, such as CNAF, to the regional contact. - We propose to organize a skype meeting on sept 21th 2010 at 11:00 CEST to talk about all that. To all of this you answered by : "Non, je ne suis pas disponible. désolé." Which can be translated here by : "No, I am not avalaible. Sorry." (hope you're ok with this translation) The exact date of you message is 21/09/2010 10:34 I don't know why you are doing this and I am tired of it. Please stop. You're embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone's time here. We're happy to help. If you want help, just tell what you need.
On 09/14/2013 01:37 PM, Stéphane Schildknecht wrote: > The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us > know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. > > Why not taking part into the community translation effort? Well, that's a good question, now. Are you talking about Dalibo or someone else? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Le 15/09/2013 00:09, damien clochard a écrit : (...a lot of noise) >> The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us >> know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. >> >> Why not taking part into the community translation effort? >> > Damien, I'm sorry I did not get the point. If you want to send me a private message to express your feeling about private mails we may have exchanged 4 years ago , feel free to do it off list. Best regards, -- Stéphane Schildknecht Contact régional PostgreSQL pour l'Europe francophone Loxodata - Conseil, expertise et formations
Le 15/09/2013 02:06, Josh Berkus a écrit : > On 09/14/2013 01:37 PM, Stéphane Schildknecht wrote: > >> The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us >> know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. >> >> Why not taking part into the community translation effort? > Well, that's a good question, now. Are you talking about Dalibo or > someone else? > Well, that thread was one-company-centric.So yes, I was talking about them. BR, -- Stéphane Schildknecht Contact régional PostgreSQL pour l'Europe francophone Loxodata - Conseil, expertise et formations
Le 16/09/2013 13:15, Stéphane Schildknecht a écrit : > Le 15/09/2013 00:09, damien clochard a écrit : > > (...a lot of noise) >>> The part we could also emphasize there is that a private company let us >>> know it does its own translation of the PR and advocate with it. >>> >>> Why not taking part into the community translation effort? >>> >> > > Damien, > > I'm sorry I did not get the point. > If you want to send me a private message to express your feeling about > private mails we may have exchanged 4 years ago , feel free to do it off > list. > You asked a question in public and I answered in public. I don't wee where's the problem. The point is that you're wondering out loud why DALIBO is not helping the official press release translation, while refusing this help in private. I won't comment any further on this. I'm confident that people can see clearly what's happening here. The only interesting question is "do you need help ?" If you don't, that's ok. It's your choice, we respect that and we won't bother you again. If you do, just let us know.