Thread: What do we need for new PUGs?
Folks, First, excuse the cross-posting; the reason for it will be come clear. It has been the custom of the PostgreSQL project to give mailing lists to new PostgreSQL User Groups (PUGs) for them to use to coordinate meetings. Lately, though, it's become apparent that those lists are not being used[1], and the sysadmin team is justifiably reluctant to create lists which are dead-on-arrival. So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not new mailing lists, then what do they need? Infrastructure we could possibly supply would include: * Meetup.com accounts * Google Apps/Calendar accounts * Blog + RSS * Mailing lists anyway * Something else If you currently run a PUG, used to run a PUG, or are thinking of starting a PUG, please explain what online infrastructure would *really* help you get the PUG started or run your existing PUG, and why. And then we'll look at ways to supply that. I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international* audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works elsewhere. [1] http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/54F4CB31.6060505@kaltenbrunner.cc -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Josh,
cc'ing Brad since I don't think he's on either of these lists.
* Josh Berkus (josh@agliodbs.com) wrote:
> Infrastructure we could possibly supply would include:
>
> * Meetup.com accounts
> * Google Apps/Calendar accounts
> * Blog + RSS
> * Mailing lists anyway
> * Something else
>
> If you currently run a PUG, used to run a PUG, or are thinking of
> starting a PUG, please explain what online infrastructure would *really*
> help you get the PUG started or run your existing PUG, and why. And
> then we'll look at ways to supply that.
>
> I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international*
> audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works elsewhere.
I'll put my 2c in as a USA individual anyway. :)
Brad and I run the DC PUG and Meetup is what we use. There's a cost
associated with that but we haven't really got an issue with that. What
would *really* help with the PUG, in my opinion at least, is "getting
the word out" and showing that it's active and interesting.
To that end, Blog + RSS (yes, that's on my todo list to make one and get
it linked into planet), Retweets/Favorites, G+ mentions or whatever,
Facebook likes, whatever, and, ideally, something on the main
postgresql.org that links to us or shows that we're active.
Maybe having planet.p.o is enough for that, not sure as there's enough
traffic on planet already that a monthly PUG post wouldn't be visible
during large periods of time.
Brad, feel free to jump in with your own thoughts.
Thanks!
Stephen
Attachment
Ciao, On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international* > audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works elsewhere. I'm speaking for the ITPUG here. What we have "now" is something more complex than a single mailing list. In particular we run a VPS which hosts a git repository for our internal documents, as well as an issue tracker to schedule and manage activities. We have also a couple of private mailing lists, as well as an italian-only planet and an official web site. Besides, we have current and old PGDay.IT web sites and another couple of gadgets. For a new PUG my 2c are to a mailing list and a web space, possibly already connected to the official planet. As Stephen, I believe the real problem is not strictly connected to the infrastructure but in the way the PUG presents itself and its activity to the world. Luca
> > Folks, > > First, excuse the cross-posting; the reason for it will be come clear. > > It has been the custom of the PostgreSQL project to give mailing lists > to new PostgreSQL User Groups (PUGs) for them to use to coordinate > meetings. Lately, though, it's become apparent that those lists are not > being used[1], and the sysadmin team is justifiably reluctant to create > lists which are dead-on-arrival. > > So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not > new mailing lists, then what do they need? > > Infrastructure we could possibly supply would include: > > * Meetup.com accounts > * Google Apps/Calendar accounts > * Blog + RSS > * Mailing lists anyway > * Something else > > If you currently run a PUG, used to run a PUG, or are thinking of > starting a PUG, please explain what online infrastructure would *really* > help you get the PUG started or run your existing PUG, and why. And > then we'll look at ways to supply that. > > I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international* > audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works > elsewhere. > > [1] http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/54F4CB31.6060505@kaltenbrunner.cc In Cuba we have several needs, but even waited for Governmental negotiation issues. Remember that we have never been able to count on the support of international funds for our 7 events previous. Saludos, Gilberto Castillo La Habana, Cuba --- This message was processed by Kaspersky Mail Gateway 5.6.28/RELEASE running at host imx3.etecsa.cu Visit our web-site: <http://www.kaspersky.com>, <http://www.viruslist.com>
Good morning! I agree that the mailing lists, while originally useful, have now been supplanted by Meetup (etc.); certainly, the Atlanta PUG has been shifted over (and mailing list can be archived and deleted at this point) to a Meetup that Moshe Jacobson's now running. (Related: It looks like the link to pg_atl on http://www.postgresql.org/community/user-groups/ is incorrect.)
---Michael BrewerOn Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
Folks,
First, excuse the cross-posting; the reason for it will be come clear.
It has been the custom of the PostgreSQL project to give mailing lists
to new PostgreSQL User Groups (PUGs) for them to use to coordinate
meetings. Lately, though, it's become apparent that those lists are not
being used[1], and the sysadmin team is justifiably reluctant to create
lists which are dead-on-arrival.
So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not
new mailing lists, then what do they need?
Infrastructure we could possibly supply would include:
* Meetup.com accounts
* Google Apps/Calendar accounts
* Blog + RSS
* Mailing lists anyway
* Something else
If you currently run a PUG, used to run a PUG, or are thinking of
starting a PUG, please explain what online infrastructure would *really*
help you get the PUG started or run your existing PUG, and why. And
then we'll look at ways to supply that.
I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international*
audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works elsewhere.
[1] http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/54F4CB31.6060505@kaltenbrunner.cc
--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com
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Hello, I think the original requirements are pretty spot on, basically a way to communicate, meetup (g+ events) and have a general community area. I know I argued for easier mailing lists over on -www but as I think about it more, I start to wonder if .Org should just stay out of it. What I mean is, for .EU and .US, there are non-profits that can deal with it, and for intl communities that don't have a non-profit then that is where .Org steps in. At least from .US perspective we already have Gapps and G+ capability. That gives us everything meetup gives us (and more) for free. I can't speak for .EU but I am fairly certain that .US wouldn't mind stepping up to the plate (more) for the .US user groups. Heck the majority are already affiliated with .US anyway. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, @cmdpromptinc Now I get it: your service is designed for a customer base that grew up with Facebook, watches Japanese seizure robot anime, and has the attention span of a gnat. I'm not that user., "Tyler Riddle"
Hi,
On Mar 3, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
Infrastructure we could possibly supply would include:
* Meetup.com accounts
* Google Apps/Calendar accounts
On Mar 4, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
At least from .US perspective we already have Gapps and G+ capability. That gives us everything meetup gives us (and more) for free. I can't speak for .EU but I am fairly certain that .US wouldn't mind stepping up to the plate (more) for the .US user groups. Heck the majority are already affiliated with .US anyway.
I think with Meetup or the Google apps approach, it is up to the PUG organizer. Personally, I like Meetup for NYCPUG (http://www.nycpug.org) because it requires very few braincells to setup and manage. Google Apps may have more functionality but it requires more setup for a PUG organizer to tie all the tools together to create a meaningful experience / dashboard for users.
Both do provide mailing lists which of course are very useful for the local "spreading of the word" - with that said, to Stephen's point about syndication:
* Blog + RSS
We should feature the PUG events on the PostgreSQL website somewhere. The easiest way to do this would be to plug into Meetup / Google App calendar feeds, a la what Planet does for blogs. I have had to reject PUG events from the regular events feed based on current policy (https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NewsEventsApproval#PostgreSQL_Conferences_.26_Events) but would love to feature them and have them in its own section on the homepage / site. This would greatly help with exposure and help create more awareness about local PUGs.
If organizers prefer using Meetup based on its tools available, there are ways to raise funds: we've found members are happy to donate to help support a group; as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are orgs that can help accept donations too and pay for the costs.
The main idea is we want to make it easy to manage a PUG and create community awareness but bring it back to PostgreSQL.org, so a combination of a) supporting organizers for having the appropriate tools and b) syndicating upcoming meetups via RSS feeds plugged into .org would help accomplish this goal.
Best,
Jonathan
Josh Berkus wrote: > So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not > new mailing lists, then what do they need? Have "PUG" be a new type of organization in the website database. Users (community accounts) can be marked admin of PUGs. Have "PUG events" be a new type of event in the website database. Admins of PUGs can post new PUG events [, without requiring moderation.] Show a box of the upcoming two or three PUG events somewhere in the front page of www.postgresql.org (maybe "Local events this week"); also have a link that opens a page listing all events in the next 30 days. Have a way to list all events of any individual PUG. Maybe steal space from "Latest News" for this. -- Álvaro Herrera http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:05:18AM +0100, Luca Ferrari wrote: > Ciao, > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > > I'm especially looking for some feedback here from our *international* > > audience; what works in the USA will be different from what works elsewhere. > > > I'm speaking for the ITPUG here. > What we have "now" is something more complex than a single mailing > list. In particular we run a VPS which hosts a git repository for our > internal documents, as well as an issue tracker to schedule and manage > activities. > We have also a couple of private mailing lists, as well as an > italian-only planet and an official web site. > Besides, we have current and old PGDay.IT web sites and another couple > of gadgets. > > For a new PUG my 2c are to a mailing list and a web space, possibly > already connected to the official planet. As Stephen, I believe the > real problem is not strictly connected to the infrastructure but in > the way the PUG presents itself and its activity to the world. This points out a real reason for per-language, if not per-PUG) lists --- you can't just say posting to pgsql-general is good for non-English speakers. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + Everyone has their own god. +
* Bruce Momjian (bruce@momjian.us) wrote: > This points out a real reason for per-language, if not per-PUG) lists > --- you can't just say posting to pgsql-general is good for non-English > speakers. Uh, we already provide per-language lists: http://www.postgresql.org/list/group/4/ Most of those at least had activity in the past year, which is not the case for the PUG lists. Thanks! Stephen
Attachment
Bruce Momjian wrote: > This points out a real reason for per-language, if not per-PUG) lists > --- you can't just say posting to pgsql-general is good for non-English > speakers. We already have per-language mailing lists, and new ones have always been created on demand. There isn't the same level of policy on them as there is for PUG lists. -- Álvaro Herrera http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:24:18AM -0500, Jonathan Katz wrote: > We should feature the PUG events on the PostgreSQL website somewhere. The > easiest way to do this would be to plug into Meetup / Google App calendar > feeds, a la what Planet does for blogs. I have had to reject PUG events from > the regular events feed based on current policy (https://wiki.postgresql.org/ > wiki/NewsEventsApproval#PostgreSQL_Conferences_.26_Events) but would love to > feature them and have them in its own section on the homepage / site. This > would greatly help with exposure and help create more awareness about local > PUGs. One nice thing about Google+ is it supports live PUG video feeds --- in fact, there was one from Brazil yesterday. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + Everyone has their own god. +
On 03/04/2015 11:29 AM, Bruce Momjian wrote: > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:24:18AM -0500, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> We should feature the PUG events on the PostgreSQL website somewhere. The >> easiest way to do this would be to plug into Meetup / Google App calendar >> feeds, a la what Planet does for blogs. I have had to reject PUG events from >> the regular events feed based on current policy (https://wiki.postgresql.org/ >> wiki/NewsEventsApproval#PostgreSQL_Conferences_.26_Events) but would love to >> feature them and have them in its own section on the homepage / site. This >> would greatly help with exposure and help create more awareness about local >> PUGs. > > One nice thing about Google+ is it supports live PUG video feeds --- in > fact, there was one from Brazil yesterday. Have you actually tried to use this? After 2 dramatic failures, I gave up. For one thing, G+ video won't tell you when it's lost the connection to the server, so you think everything's OK, and really the video stopped 20 minutes ago. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 04:44:08PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > On 03/04/2015 11:29 AM, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:24:18AM -0500, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> We should feature the PUG events on the PostgreSQL website somewhere. The > >> easiest way to do this would be to plug into Meetup / Google App calendar > >> feeds, a la what Planet does for blogs. I have had to reject PUG events from > >> the regular events feed based on current policy (https://wiki.postgresql.org/ > >> wiki/NewsEventsApproval#PostgreSQL_Conferences_.26_Events) but would love to > >> feature them and have them in its own section on the homepage / site. This > >> would greatly help with exposure and help create more awareness about local > >> PUGs. > > > > One nice thing about Google+ is it supports live PUG video feeds --- in > > fact, there was one from Brazil yesterday. > > Have you actually tried to use this? No, I have not, but you can see the Brazil one here: https://plus.google.com/events/cg6ttgu1ahle9qo7saupfdsf8hk -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + Everyone has their own god. +
On 04-03-2015 21:44, Josh Berkus wrote: > On 03/04/2015 11:29 AM, Bruce Momjian wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:24:18AM -0500, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> We should feature the PUG events on the PostgreSQL website somewhere. The >>> easiest way to do this would be to plug into Meetup / Google App calendar >>> feeds, a la what Planet does for blogs. I have had to reject PUG events from >>> the regular events feed based on current policy (https://wiki.postgresql.org/ >>> wiki/NewsEventsApproval#PostgreSQL_Conferences_.26_Events) but would love to >>> feature them and have them in its own section on the homepage / site. This >>> would greatly help with exposure and help create more awareness about local >>> PUGs. >> >> One nice thing about Google+ is it supports live PUG video feeds --- in >> fact, there was one from Brazil yesterday. > > Have you actually tried to use this? > > After 2 dramatic failures, I gave up. For one thing, G+ video won't > tell you when it's lost the connection to the server, so you think > everything's OK, and really the video stopped 20 minutes ago. > That was our first time using 'on air' and it worked flawless. Talking about your problem, I asked someone else that was watching the streaming to report any problem. -- Euler Taveira Timbira - http://www.timbira.com.br/ PostgreSQL: Consultoria, Desenvolvimento, Suporte 24x7 e Treinamento
On 03/04/2015 04:44 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > Have you actually tried to use this? > > After 2 dramatic failures, I gave up. For one thing, G+ video won't > tell you when it's lost the connection to the server, so you think > everything's OK, and really the video stopped 20 minutes ago. > I have found that the "Hangouts Live" is a bit unreliable but the record feature as a whole works well and you can always upload the video after. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development High Availability, Oracle Conversion, @cmdpromptinc Now I get it: your service is designed for a customer base that grew up with Facebook, watches Japanese seizure robot anime, and has the attention span of a gnat. I'm not that user., "Tyler Riddle"
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > Josh Berkus wrote: > >> So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not >> new mailing lists, then what do they need? > > Have "PUG" be a new type of organization in the website database. Users > (community accounts) can be marked admin of PUGs. > > Have "PUG events" be a new type of event in the website database. > Admins of PUGs can post new PUG events [, without requiring moderation.] > Being new objects, could we define a little what we are expecting from a PUG? > Show a box of the upcoming two or three PUG events somewhere in the front > page of www.postgresql.org (maybe "Local events this week"); also have a > link that opens a page listing all events in the next 30 days. Have a > way to list all events of any individual PUG. Maybe steal space from > "Latest News" for this. I like this idea. Luca
+1 for Alvaro's idea.
Even here in India, we have gone down the Meetup.com route. Again the costs are not that big a problem. We have also purchased some domains just in case (for example pgday.in) and renew them. But every PUG should get an "official" email from postgresql.org (india-pug@postgresql.org or in-pug@postgresql.org or something).Regards,
Nikhils
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> So the question becomes: if what new PUGs need for infrastructure is not
>> new mailing lists, then what do they need?
>
> Have "PUG" be a new type of organization in the website database. Users
> (community accounts) can be marked admin of PUGs.
>
> Have "PUG events" be a new type of event in the website database.
> Admins of PUGs can post new PUG events [, without requiring moderation.]
>
Being new objects, could we define a little what we are expecting from a PUG?
> Show a box of the upcoming two or three PUG events somewhere in the front
> page of www.postgresql.org (maybe "Local events this week"); also have a
> link that opens a page listing all events in the next 30 days. Have a
> way to list all events of any individual PUG. Maybe steal space from
> "Latest News" for this.
I like this idea.
Luca
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On 03/04/2015 08:29 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > We already have per-language mailing lists ..which I think is the main reason for low-traffic on the regional ones. The language specific lists reach a broader audience compared to the regional (PUG) ones. I'm not saying any of them is better or worse, but two are clearly competitive in terms of traffic. To answer Josh's original questions from my/SwissPUG point of view: We just started out with a wiki and mailing lists, and that's okay for now. I'm not sure what services we might need in the future, but have my doubts about meetup.com, the Google offerings or similar services. Regards Markus
On 03/12/2015 07:32 AM, Markus Wanner wrote: > On 03/04/2015 08:29 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >> We already have per-language mailing lists > > ..which I think is the main reason for low-traffic on the regional ones. > The language specific lists reach a broader audience compared to the > regional (PUG) ones. I'm not saying any of them is better or worse, but > two are clearly competitive in terms of traffic. > > To answer Josh's original questions from my/SwissPUG point of view: We > just started out with a wiki and mailing lists, and that's okay for now. > I'm not sure what services we might need in the future, but have my > doubts about meetup.com, the Google offerings or similar services. Given that you're the first one to speak up about mailing lists, are yours hosted @postgresql.org, or somewhere else? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Josh, On 03/12/2015 06:43 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > Given that you're the first one to speak up about mailing lists, are > yours hosted @postgresql.org, or somewhere else? We asked -www, but finally decided that a) we want more than one list and b) it's simpler to setup and maintain ourselves. See here for the lists: http://mailman.swisspug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ 'board' has some traffic, but it's non-public. There's pretty much no activity on the other two, yet. Given the association doesn't exist, yet, I don't think that's too surprising. Also note that I don't ever expect a lot of traffic on any of these lists. Regards Markus
On 03/12/2015 11:12 AM, Markus Wanner wrote: > Josh, > > On 03/12/2015 06:43 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> Given that you're the first one to speak up about mailing lists, are >> yours hosted @postgresql.org, or somewhere else? > > We asked -www, but finally decided that a) we want more than one list > and b) it's simpler to setup and maintain ourselves. > > See here for the lists: > http://mailman.swisspug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > > 'board' has some traffic, but it's non-public. There's pretty much no > activity on the other two, yet. Given the association doesn't exist, > yet, I don't think that's too surprising. Also note that I don't ever > expect a lot of traffic on any of these lists. If they had been available, would you have preferred to have the lists hosted on postgresql.org-controlled infrastructure? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
Josh, On 03/16/2015 06:16 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: > If they had been available, would you have preferred to have the lists > hosted on postgresql.org-controlled infrastructure? I think so, yes. That's why we asked. The following discussion made us think about our requirements and I'm happy with the outcome, I should add. Regards Markus Wanner