Thread: MySQL gets $19.5 MM
Don't know if anyone's posted this yet... This, combined with the admittedly weird SAP DB deal, is bad news for PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior product. It will be tomorrow too. But Betamax was pretty neat too. PostgreSQL needs more corporate support. Case studies are great, but someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridgecreated. -- MySQL AB Secures $19.5 Million Investment Round Led by Benchmark Capital Additional Investors in Open Source Database Leader Include Index Ventures SEATTLE, Wash - (June 3, 2003) - MySQL AB, developer of the world's most popular open source database, announced today thecompletion of a $19.5 million Series B round of financing to fuel its growth in the mainstream DBMS market. BenchmarkCapital, the leading global early stage high-technology venture capital firm based in Menlo Park, Calif., is leadingthe round. Other investors include Index Ventures, a prominent European venture capital firm headquartered in Geneva,Switzerland. MySQL also announced today that Kevin Harvey, general partner of Benchmark Capital, will join MySQL AB'sboard of directors. MySQL AB has headquarters in the United States and in Sweden. "We chose Benchmark Capital as the lead investor because it has an outstanding track record in building successful companiesoperating with new business models, such as eBay and Red Hat," said Mårten Mickos, CEO of MySQL AB. "The DBMS marketis at a turning point, as databases become more commoditized and businesses re-evaluate their data management softwarestrategies," Mickos continued. "MySQL is in a unique position to address today's database requirements, and withthe funds from Benchmark and others, we can ramp up our commercial business while continuing to support the open sourcecommunity." "MySQL AB is a strong 'second wave' open source company with a profitable business model, a winning technology that is battletested by a community of more than 4 million open source advocates, and an established worldwide reach," said Mr. Harvey."We believe MySQL AB has significant growth potential, and we look forward to helping it attain a long-term leadershipposition in the database market." MySQL AB develops and markets the MySQL® open source database, a high-performance relational database management system forWeb site and business application development and deployment. MySQL AB employs a dual licensing business model, in whichthe MySQL database is available under the GPL free software/open source license at no cost and also under a non-opensource commercial license. MySQL AB's licensing structure supports its open source user community with a sustainablebusiness model, and this community, in turn, is the engine behind the company's commercial business. About MySQL MySQL AB develops, markets and supports the MySQL database server, the world's most popular open source database. With anestimated 4 million installations and over 30,000 downloads per day, MySQL is quickly becoming the core of many high-volume,business-critical applications. Major corporations such as Yahoo!, Lucent Technologies, Sony Pictures DigitalEntertainment, Motorola, NASA, HP and Xerox rely on the ultra-fast, highly reliable MySQL database. MySQL is availableunder the free software/open source GNU General Public License (GPL) or a non-GPL commercial license. For more informationabout MySQL, please go to www.mysql.com. About Benchmark Capital Benchmark Capital was founded in 1995 with the mission of helping talented entrepreneurs build major technology enterprisesfocused on long-term growth. Benchmark takes a labor-intensive, team-oriented approach to venture investing inorder to deliver a superior level of service to its portfolio companies. Benchmark's portfolio includes franchise companiessuch as Ariba (Nasdaq: ARBA), eBay (Nasdaq: EBAY), Handspring (Nasdaq: HAND), Juniper Networks (Nasdaq: JNPR) andRed Hat (Nasdaq: RHAT). Managing more than $2 billion in committed venture capital, Benchmark focuses on early-stage investingin markets where the partners have direct, relevant experience. For more information on Benchmark, visit its website at www.benchmark.com. About Index Ventures Index Ventures is a leading pan-European venture capital fund dedicated to investments in information technology and lifesciences. The Index Ventures team, which began investing in 1992, has a deep technology and scientific focus and theability to leverage a network of cross-Atlantic strategic relationships. Index proactively seeks out the top entrepreneurialteams in each investment area and leverages its core assets in helping the entrepreneurs build their companyinto a global leader. Index Ventures investors include leading technology firms and institutional investors. To learnmore about Index Ventures visit http://www.indexventures.com. # # #
On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 08:49, Ned Lilly wrote:
> Don't know if anyone's posted this yet...
>
> This, combined with the admittedly weird SAP DB deal, is bad news for PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior
product. It will be tomorrow too. But Betamax was pretty neat too.
>
> PostgreSQL needs more corporate support. Case studies are great, but someone needs to step into the void that Great
Bridgecreated.
>
>
If you can get the venture capital I (and a few others around here)
would be more than willing to try to fill that void. I think we could do
it with far less than 19 million too.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Jean-Michel, Please cc: this to the original poster: > > PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior product. It will be It is really? According to which criteria? Clearly more popular, certainly. However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product". > > tomorrow too. But Betamax was pretty neat too. > > PostgreSQL needs more corporate support. Case studies are great, but > > someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridge created. To be completely blunt: MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise of MySQL AB. Their development is still centrally and very corporately controlled; they are more a commercial company using the GPL as a distribution mechanism than a real Open Source project. And while Open Source is hard to beat in the marketplace, MySQL AB is easily beaten or consumed by larger, fiercer commercial competitors. Particularly since the company has shown anything but astuteness in their commercial relationships. Think about this: What would happen if Microsoft or Oracle purchased MySQL AB in order to shut it down? What would happen to the MySQL Project? The same thing that's happening to the SAP-DB project? PostgreSQL has survived the deaths and/or acquisition of several companies, most notably Great Bridge. In this way, PostgreSQL is just like Linux ... many people commercialize it but nobody owns it. From my perspective, Great Bridge was, in fact, a problem for us because our project became associated with GB in the public mind ... meaning that when GB shut down due to a bad business model, a lot of people got the impression that PostgreSQL was shutting down too. We've been quite a while recovering from that, and MySQL's public profile has surged ahead in the meantime. I would ... or perhaps will ... be nice to get some corporate money again for useful things like trade show booths. But we want to avoid the impression ever again that PostgreSQL is owned by any one company. (Thankfully, PostgreSQL Inc. has been very careful in this regard) -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: > Jean-Michel, > > Please cc: this to the original poster: He did. > > > PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior product. It will be > > It is really? According to which criteria? Clearly more popular, certainly. > However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than > MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product". Er... I said PostgreSQL was the superior product. Re-read the original post. > To be completely blunt: MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise > of MySQL AB. Agreed. But $19MM ought to buy them a little more time. Regards, Ned
MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'? Josh Berkus wrote: > Jean-Michel, > > Please cc: this to the original poster: > > >>>PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior product. It will be > > > It is really? According to which criteria? Clearly more popular, certainly. > However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than > MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product". > > >>>tomorrow too. But Betamax was pretty neat too. >>>PostgreSQL needs more corporate support. Case studies are great, but >>>someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridge created. > > > To be completely blunt: MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise > of MySQL AB. Their development is still centrally and very corporately > controlled; they are more a commercial company using the GPL as a > distribution mechanism than a real Open Source project. And while Open > Source is hard to beat in the marketplace, MySQL AB is easily beaten or > consumed by larger, fiercer commercial competitors. Particularly since the > company has shown anything but astuteness in their commercial relationships. > > Think about this: What would happen if Microsoft or Oracle purchased MySQL AB > in order to shut it down? What would happen to the MySQL Project? The same > thing that's happening to the SAP-DB project? > > PostgreSQL has survived the deaths and/or acquisition of several companies, > most notably Great Bridge. In this way, PostgreSQL is just like Linux ... > many people commercialize it but nobody owns it. > >From my perspective, Great Bridge was, in fact, a problem for us because our > project became associated with GB in the public mind ... meaning that when GB > shut down due to a bad business model, a lot of people got the impression > that PostgreSQL was shutting down too. We've been quite a while recovering > from that, and MySQL's public profile has surged ahead in the meantime. > > I would ... or perhaps will ... be nice to get some corporate money again for > useful things like trade show booths. But we want to avoid the impression > ever again that PostgreSQL is owned by any one company. (Thankfully, > PostgreSQL Inc. has been very careful in this regard) >
Dennis,
> MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'?
That was a "what if".
My point is simply that:
Given: MySQL Project is completely dependant on MySQL AB
Given: MySQL AB is a small company.
Given: MySQL AB has demonstrated near-catastrophic bad business
decisions in the past (i.e. NuSphere).
Given: MySQL AB just received $19 mil in venture capital, which the
funders will expect a large return on -- and promptly.
Given: Even well-managed small companies are frequently subsumed by giant
software corporations.
---------------------------------------
Conclusion: MySQL users should be worried about what might happen to MySQL,
the project, in the future, based on what happens to MySQL AB. And they,
like SAP-DB, should be prepared to fork the GPL code.
--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
all very good points. And I felt a little bit of bile in my mouth, myself, when I realized, several years ago, the true developmentand business model behind MySQL. Also, the HODGEPODGE way they added features from other development projects. But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to Konqueror. Someone who puts a lot of time andmoney into the product for their own selfish interests, but then releases it. Josh Berkus wrote: > Dennis, > > >>MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'? > > > That was a "what if". > > My point is simply that: > > Given: MySQL Project is completely dependant on MySQL AB > Given: MySQL AB is a small company. > Given: MySQL AB has demonstrated near-catastrophic bad business > decisions in the past (i.e. NuSphere). > Given: MySQL AB just received $19 mil in venture capital, which the > funders will expect a large return on -- and promptly. > Given: Even well-managed small companies are frequently subsumed by giant > software corporations. > --------------------------------------- > Conclusion: MySQL users should be worried about what might happen to MySQL, > the project, in the future, based on what happens to MySQL AB. And they, > like SAP-DB, should be prepared to fork the GPL code. >
Dennis, > But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to Konqueror. Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for their own selfish interests, but then releases it. I'd like a little funding, just for Trade shows. Heck, I'd go to 6 shows a year for PostgreSQL, if someone would pay me to do it. But getting dependant on funding from one company for development is dangerous. Talk to the Apache folks about their relationship to IBM, or the Mozilla folks about AOL, or the Gnome folks, or anyone on OpenOffice.org about Sun ... even where the project works well (like those) the participants spend a *lot* of time politicking with the sponsor -- some months, more time than you spend developing. We are gratefully free of that, and you don't know how good that is until you've had to deal with the opposite. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>: > To be completely blunt: MySQL the database will not easily survive the > demise > of MySQL AB. Their development is still centrally and very corporately > controlled; they are more a commercial company using the GPL as a > distribution mechanism than a real Open Source project. And while Open > Source is hard to beat in the marketplace, MySQL AB is easily beaten or > consumed by larger, fiercer commercial competitors. Particularly since the > company has shown anything but astuteness in their commercial relationships. > > Think about this: What would happen if Microsoft or Oracle purchased MySQL AB > > in order to shut it down? What would happen to the MySQL Project? The same > > thing that's happening to the SAP-DB project? To be even more current- just look at what is going on with Oracle vs. PeopleSoft & JB Edwards http://quicken.com/investments/news/story/?story=NewsStory/dowJones/20030609/ON200306091828001243.var&p=PSFT Toward the ends Oracle clearly states that they would stop selling PeopleSort and eventually more the PeopleSoft customer base to Oracle! > PostgreSQL has survived the deaths and/or acquisition of several companies, > most notably Great Bridge. In this way, PostgreSQL is just like Linux ... > many people commercialize it but nobody owns it. > > >From my perspective, Great Bridge was, in fact, a problem for us because our > > project became associated with GB in the public mind ... meaning that when GB > > shut down due to a bad business model, a lot of people got the impression > that PostgreSQL was shutting down too. We've been quite a while recovering > from that, and MySQL's public profile has surged ahead in the meantime. > > I would ... or perhaps will ... be nice to get some corporate money again for > > useful things like trade show booths. But we want to avoid the impression > ever again that PostgreSQL is owned by any one company. (Thankfully, > PostgreSQL Inc. has been very careful in this regard) > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco So now here's a question- if I have this right. The goal is (maybe/probably?) to be corporate support but not coporately owned, yes? If so, them lets say that I wanted research PostgreSQL in the context of moving to it from say a MS-SQL or Oracle product. A quick search of postgresql.com (which is probably would Joe Tech at Joe Business would start) leaves out the product support question (though does answer the licensing question which I think is the most important piece). Budget conscious people are **starting** to realize that they are paying for paper year after year- and it doesn't make financial sense (regardless of whether or not you can afford to pay for paper every year). As much as I would like to see Linux, Apache, PostgreSQL, Mozilla, etc. everywhere (or at least where I have to "work") they are not going to be for everyone- nor should they be. I'm curious to hear what other people are experiencing but for me everytime I mention an Open Source product the question seems to come down to vendor support- they don't seem to realize that you can in many cases get a quesiton answered via email or in a newsgroup more directly and more quickly then if you are paying for a support contract. Companies from what I see and experience here in the states generally seem to be more interested in a commercial product that does 70% of what they need instead of getting the people who can develope in house 100% need (and maybe 100% or that they **want** too). Regardless though, in the end people will be smarter and invest their money in people and the componets to build your application/computing environment. Those products have to be marketed (unfortunately?) so the question I have is, other than the advocacy site(s) does PostgreSQL have any of those so-called "tear sheets" that might catch some CIO's eye? Perhaps I'm not asking in the right forum but even though MySQL getting a cash influx does not worry me, it would be nice to include something like that in my proposals if for no other reason than to get the word out (regardless of whether or not I win the business). Would it be approppriate for my company to do something and submit it? It seem like that approach might muster up support from companies who do use Pg. Sorry for the long windedness but this thread has got me thinking. I'm always looking for feedback on how I can educate prospective clients to the vast non-mainstream and non-big-corporate technology that is availble. -$0.73 BTW, does one financially contribute directly to the development of Pg? Is there something set up for that? Just asking for the future... -- Keith C. Perry Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities? I would be *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and maybe show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE options, etc. I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a pretty cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada). The questions is how to get folks to attend... ..sound like mail stuffing party to me! Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>: > Dennis, > > > But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to > > Konqueror. Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for > their own selfish interests, but then releases it. > > I'd like a little funding, just for Trade shows. Heck, I'd go to 6 shows a > year for PostgreSQL, if someone would pay me to do it. > > But getting dependant on funding from one company for development is > dangerous. Talk to the Apache folks about their relationship to IBM, or the > > Mozilla folks about AOL, or the Gnome folks, or anyone on OpenOffice.org > about Sun ... even where the project works well (like those) the participants > > spend a *lot* of time politicking with the sponsor -- some months, more time > > than you spend developing. > > We are gratefully free of that, and you don't know how good that is until > you've had to deal with the opposite. > > -- > -Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > -- Keith C. Perry Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Keith, > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities? I would be > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and maybe > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE > options, etc. Sounds great to me ... think we could organize one as a BOF for LWE-SF? I'll talk and recruit attendees if you'll set up the facilities .... -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Network Administrator wrote: > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities? I would be > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and maybe > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE > options, etc. > > I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a pretty > cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada). The > questions is how to get folks to attend... > > ..sound like mail stuffing party to me! Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your local community. I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver to compare MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird. While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is suited to as well. A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of "selling" Postgresql to the people who need it.
Quoting "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>: > > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Network Administrator wrote: > > > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities? I > would be > > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and > maybe > > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, > IDE > > options, etc. > > > > I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a > pretty > > cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada). The > > questions is how to get folks to attend... > > > > ..sound like mail stuffing party to me! > > Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your local > community. I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver to compare > MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird. True indeed. I think I'll put someone on to research some local businesses and then I'll put together a seminar maybe for the fall. You're right though- "if you build it they will come" > While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is > particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is suited to > as well. Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but I know its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD. My goal is to simply provide alternatives to the way things are done now. I teach at a technical school and one of the things my students appreciate is the fact that I'm very honest about what they may expect in their career- including the fact that it is ok to conside solutions that are not necessarily corporate culture. In the end, I tell them, all that counts is your ability to complete the tasks set before you. One day that "demo" box in your office might move to the production room :) One of the things that I am doing (and will write up for submission) is showing Domino6 & PostgreSQL integration. If things go right, I hoping that some of the folks I know in the city goverment will get wind of this and then reconsider using Oracle as the city standard- gotta walk before I can run. > A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of "selling" > Postgresql to the people who need it. .and they all said," <--religious praise inserted here--> " -- Keith C. Perry Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Keith, > Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but I > know its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD. My goal Although I don't know that there are any Linux companies who have made it a marketing goal to eliminate BSD. Not even IBM. I have no problems with MySQL ... I even use it for one client. *MySQL AB*, on the other hand, seems to have figured out Open Source licensing without ever understanding the OSS axiom that "choice is good". -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>: > Keith, > > > Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but > I > > know its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD. My goal > > Although I don't know that there are any Linux companies who have made it a > marketing goal to eliminate BSD. Not even IBM. Oh no I wasn't saying that at all only that in every "religion" there are fanatics. <other stuff deleted> -- Keith C. Perry Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>: > Keith, > > > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities? I > would be > > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and > maybe > > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, > IDE > > options, etc. > > Sounds great to me ... think we could organize one as a BOF for LWE-SF? > > I'll talk and recruit attendees if you'll set up the facilities .... I'm on the East Coast and I'll actually be coming back from vacation that week but we can talk off list about this. I think I would be interested if sponsering a BOF depending on all the elements in the equation :) (no, I'm not quoting Bullet-Tooth Tony from Guy Richie's movie "Snatch") > -- > -Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > -- Keith C. Perry Director of Networks & Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com ____________________________________ This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
Ned Lilly wrote: > Josh Berkus wrote: > >> Jean-Michel, >> >> Please cc: this to the original poster: > > > He did. > >> > > PostgreSQL. Today, it's clearly the superior product. It will be >> >> It is really? According to which criteria? Clearly more popular, certainly. >> However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than >> MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product". > > > Er... I said PostgreSQL was the superior product. Re-read the original post. > >> To be completely blunt: MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise >> of MySQL AB. > > Agreed. But $19MM ought to buy them a little more time. Really? How patient are VC's who invest around 20 megadollars these days? In the GB case the business modell got changed and the CEO replaced even before we had real offices. Now MySQL has to ramp up business to satisfy the investors and at the same time they have to develop another database to satisfy SAP ... how much time will be left to satisfy all the open source users with respect to the promised features "in the old product line"? Renaming the existing SAPDB into MySQL doesn't give any existing MySQL user more functionality. At least not in a way they couldn't do it right now without this naming confusion. Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
> all very good points. And I felt a little bit of bile in my mouth, myself, when I realized, several years ago, the true development and business model behind MySQL. Also, the HODGEPODGE way they added features from other development projects. Yeah, but keep in your mind the somewhat hodgepodge nature of PostgreSQL (eg. foreign keys, inheritance, etc...) Chris
On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:57:07AM -0700, Dennis Gearon wrote:
> But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to
> Konqueror. Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for
> their own selfish interests, but then releases it.
I disagree. I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies
who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece. Or, maybe
more precisely, _several_ companies to do that. The only thing
currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part,
IMO.
A
--
----
Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M2P 2A8
+1 416 646 3304 x110
That's a good, mabye better model! Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:57:07AM -0700, Dennis Gearon wrote: > >>But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to >>Konqueror. Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for >>their own selfish interests, but then releases it. > > > I disagree. I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies > who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece. Or, maybe > more precisely, _several_ companies to do that. The only thing > currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part, > IMO. > > A >
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 10:00:12AM -0700, Dennis Gearon wrote: > That's a good, mabye better model! > ... > >I disagree. I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies > >who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece. Or, maybe > >more precisely, _several_ companies to do that. The only thing > >currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part, > >IMO. There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project and not driven by some commercial interests. I also do not agree that IBM is so important for Linux. IBM helps yes, but there's also a huge risk. Paying people unselfishly to do community work is a very difficult business model. It's different if some companies are willing to pay for some improvements on PGSQL because they want to use it. This is a valid business decision. And the companies with the PGSQL developers can handle these contracts and generate some profit. Michael -- Michael Meskes Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De ICQ: 179140304, AIM: michaelmeskes, Jabber: meskes@jabber.org Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Michael Meskes wrote: > There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of > PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project > and not driven by some commercial interests. I also do not agree that > IBM is so important for Linux. IBM helps yes, but there's also a huge > risk. Paying people unselfishly to do community work is a very difficult > business model. In fact ... from what I've been reading, IBM is pretty much what put Linux onto SCO's radar ... until there were 'big backers', according to one article I read, who was SCO going to sue? Linus?
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> writes:
[ quoting Andrew Sullivan ]
>>> I disagree. I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies
>>> who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece. Or, maybe
>>> more precisely, _several_ companies to do that. The only thing
>>> currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part,
>>> IMO.
> There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of
> PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project
> and not driven by some commercial interests.
These are not mutually exclusive. Each developer has his own axe to
grind, without doubt; I don't think it matters much whether his goals
are set by personal or corporate priorities. The critical thing from
the perspective of the PostgreSQL project is that no one person or
company have an overriding influence on where the project goes. So
I'd think the situation Andrew suggests, where several companies each
contribute a small part of the total effort, would be ideal. What we
need to guard against is a situation where one company controls a large
share of the development effort and can thereby dictate choices that
might be in their best interest but not be in the best interest of the
project as a whole.
(And how do we decide what's the best interest of the project as a
whole, anyway? Well, community consensus is the only way that I can
see. Again, the critical factor is that no one voice drown out the
rest.)
The core committee has spent a fair amount of time worrying about
exactly this issue, as first Great Bridge and later Red Hat threatened
to become the 800-pound gorilla. As a former employee of the former
and a current employee of the latter, I may not be the most unbiased
observer available to comment on the issue --- but I can tell you that
it's something I do think about.
regards, tom lane
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Tom Lane wrote: > The core committee has spent a fair amount of time worrying about > exactly this issue, as first Great Bridge and later Red Hat threatened > to become the 800-pound gorilla. As a former employee of the former and > a current employee of the latter, I may not be the most unbiased > observer available to comment on the issue --- but I can tell you that > it's something I do think about. As one that was very resistent to GreatBridge (and not so much to RedHat), I can't say that my worries at the time were justified ... in both cases, both companies have allowed Tom to spend a *great* deal of time working on the larger features, features that may have been alot slower (and more difficult) to implement otherwise ... I have no doubt that some of those features were 'pushed to the top of the TODO list' due to their business case, but I can't think of any that were against teh desires of the community ... were there?
Folks, > (And how do we decide what's the best interest of the project as a > whole, anyway? Well, community consensus is the only way that I can > see. Again, the critical factor is that no one voice drown out the > rest.) Well, a lot of it has been about the core committee and trust. The rest of us trust the core committee to promote what they think is best for PostgreSQL, and not what their employers think, unless the two are compatible (for example, I don't think anyone objects to SRA's pushing Windows ... ). Plus most of the core committee is very active on the mailing lists and actively fields user requests and answers user opinions. So if one of us gets mad that a feature or patch was turned down, nobody is left with the opinion that it's becuase the core committee wasn't paying attention or is speaking for their employers. Nor would any every expect that we would see a feature that had been rejected for the TODO list suddenly appear in the source tree. If private companies using their own money want to change the *priorities* on the TODO list, that's fine -- and no different from volunteer programmers with an itch to scratch, except maybe in scale. Besides, I think most of us active participants have some business related to Postgres. I'm a consultant, for example, and I freely admit that I pushed for not waiting for Win32 and PITR for 7.4 because some of my clients want to use 7.4 now and not later, with or without those features. Sometimes the process breaks down a bit ... I can think of a few features which were discussed and accepted on the Hackers list and then rejected when they reached Patches ... but the vast majority of the time it works better than the projects I know with a larger community and a more formal governance structure. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 11:14:02PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > > There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of > > PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project > > and not driven by some commercial interests. > > These are not mutually exclusive. Each developer has his own axe to > grind, without doubt; I don't think it matters much whether his goals Okay, that's true. Actually what I wanted to say is the project must not rely on a kind of sponsorship. Maybe an example could make it more clear. Let's say a company approaches RH and says "We need full replication and we're willing to pay for it, as this is still cheaper than buying the hwole stuff from Oracle or others.". Then RH pays you to do the work. I really like that. And it makes sense for all companies involved. What I do not like, and probably misunderstood in the original email, would be if RH says, "Hey, we've contracted a good software developer to implement replication, no matter that he's not really interested in databases." And with no one paying RH for this work, they may decide at some point to just stop it. Or the developer leaves, etc. This of course is different than paying someone who's already a developer in this project. I love the way PGSQL is run, but have seen some unbelievable stuff in other projects. And it despises me to see companies, that do not even understand how free software development works, jump into a project and try to change it all, just to disappear after a few weeks. Michael -- Michael Meskes Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De ICQ: 179140304, AIM: michaelmeskes, Jabber: meskes@jabber.org Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 11:40:52AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > I have no doubt that some of those features were 'pushed to the top of the > TODO list' due to their business case, but I can't think of any that were > against teh desires of the community ... were there? No, there were definitely not. I have no problem having TODOs list priorities changed and features developed due to business cases. What I meant to say was that companies should not just send some of their developers and act as if they want to take over. Sorry, I was just in a bad mood after seeing this stuff in another project. Michael -- Michael Meskes Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De ICQ: 179140304, AIM: michaelmeskes, Jabber: meskes@jabber.org Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:52:05PM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote: <snip> > I also do not agree that IBM is so important for Linux. ACK. Even IBM really endangeres Linux an other open source projects. IBM is one of the greatest proponents of software patents. They've got thousands of european software patents, which are illegal up today. All together the european patent office has granted more than 30.000 illegal software patents - against the written law. (so you clearly can call them criminals) The patent proponents in the patent offices and some companies (BSA) want to change the law to legalize those illegal patents and allow an unlimited patentability just like in the USA - for whole europe! I dont need to mention what happens to the european software industry and to opensource projects, if they succeed with making crime to legality. We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this. On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable. Please help to safe our freedom! http://patinfo.ffii.org/ http://swpat.ffii.org/ cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux ITS Webhosting ab 5 EUR/Monat. UUCP, rawIP und vieles mehr. phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 smsgate: sms.weigelt@metux.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mail wurde mit UUCP versandt. http://www.metux.de/uucp/
weigelt@metux.de wrote: > [...] > We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this. > On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive > draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable. Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the color of a rainbow ... I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage paid, they provide the envilopes. Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service. I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to get paid or you're as stupid as it gets. Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
I don't see what's invalid about NetFlix patent. They came up with a brand new business process which no one had thought of up to that point. AFAIK, business processes are patentable IP. Of course, it's certainly valid to argue that patents for many things now-a-days last too long. I don't know what class of patent a business process falls into, but I know many patents can easily last 17 years, clearly far too long for something like software. On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 05:42:08PM -0400, Jan Wieck wrote: > weigelt@metux.de wrote: > >[...] > >We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this. > >On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive > >draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable. > > Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the > color of a rainbow ... > > I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix > got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company > where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They > send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the > next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage > paid, they provide the envilopes. > > Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service. > I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he > claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a > piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to > get paid or you're as stupid as it gets. > > > Jan > > -- > #======================================================================# > # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # > # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # > #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com # > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match > -- Jim C. Nasby, Database Consultant jim@nasby.net Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828 Windows: "Where do you want to go today?" Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"
I have never heard about NetFlix, but there is a small company in sweden which use almost the same scheme... You pay a monthlyfee, fill in a form with your name+address, which movies you want and then they send them to you, i think you canhave at most five movies at a time... and when you return them they send you other movies... Does this mean they willgo out of business now?? Or is the patent only valid when you get three dvd's at a time?? Oh, you pay 20USD per month for NetFlix? Maybe I should patent this: "A cost/pricing model where you pay a non-variable monthly fee for one or more services, single or bundled together". Byebye all flat-rate phone companies... bye bye NetFlix... bye bye cable tv... bye bye <IYF business>... ;-) This is funny (and true): In sweden we had a group of bank robbers, which were called [whatever, i dont remember right now]in the newspapers... they copyrighted that name, and had the newspapers pay them for using it... who said crime doesnot pay?? :) /* m */ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim C. Nasby" <jim@nasby.net> To: "Jan Wieck" <JanWieck@Yahoo.com> Cc: <weigelt@metux.de>; <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>; "Dennis Gearon" <gearond@cvc.net>; "Andrew Sullivan" <andrew@libertyrms.info>;<pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [GENERAL] MySQL gets $19.5 MM > I don't see what's invalid about NetFlix patent. They came up with a > brand new business process which no one had thought of up to that point. > AFAIK, business processes are patentable IP. > > Of course, it's certainly valid to argue that patents for many things > now-a-days last too long. I don't know what class of patent a business > process falls into, but I know many patents can easily last 17 years, > clearly far too long for something like software. > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 05:42:08PM -0400, Jan Wieck wrote: > > weigelt@metux.de wrote: > > >[...] > > >We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this. > > >On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive > > >draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable. > > > > Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the > > color of a rainbow ... > > > > I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix > > got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company > > where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They > > send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the > > next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage > > paid, they provide the envilopes. > > > > Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service. > > I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he > > claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a > > piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to > > get paid or you're as stupid as it gets. > > > > > > Jan > > > > -- > > #======================================================================# > > # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # > > # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # > > #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com # > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > > joining column's datatypes do not match > > > > -- > Jim C. Nasby, Database Consultant jim@nasby.net > Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America > Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828 > > Windows: "Where do you want to go today?" > Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" > FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?" > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >
Jan, > Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service. > I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he > claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a > piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to > get paid or you're as stupid as it gets. Actually, the main problem is that Congress is currently looting the patent office of funds (i.e., patent fees are used to subsidize the US Treasury, instead of the Patent Office being subsidized by the government). As a result, each patent clerk is required to review about ten times as many patents each month has they were required to in 1990. With that kind of workload, and no penalties for mistakes, you can imagine that the patent clerks just rubber-stamp a fair amount of applications so they can go home. And, IMNSHO, business method patents are one of the stupidest ideas to come out of Congress in US history. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 17:45, Josh Berkus wrote: [snip] > And, IMNSHO, business method patents are one of the stupidest ideas to come > out of Congress in US history. Are you sure that didn't come from the Supreme Court? -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: ron.l.johnson@cox.net | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | | | | 4 degrees from Vladimir Putin +-----------------------------------------------------------+
Jan Wieck wrote: > Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription > service. I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for > that. If he claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less > smart than a piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band > patent you have to get paid or you're as stupid as it gets. BRIBERY! Surely not ? You jest ? Take that back now! These people earn so much and what about that oath they take about upholding the values of their office... Hmm. Maybe they are pieces of toast. Just do a search on goolge for 'bizarre patents' and have a quite giggle. Then realise that what you are laughing about has a direct consequence on your commercial stability. Peter
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:52:05PM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote: <snip> > I also do not agree that IBM is so important for Linux. ACK. Even IBM really endangeres Linux an other open source projects. IBM is one of the greatest proponents of software patents. They've got thousands of european software patents, which are illegal up today. All together the european patent office has granted more than 30.000 illegal software patents - against the written law. (so you clearly can call them criminals) The patent proponents in the patent offices and some companies (BSA) want to change the law to legalize those illegal patents and allow an unlimited patentability just like in the USA - for whole europe! I dont need to mention what happens to the european software industry and to opensource projects, if they succeed with making crime to legality. We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this. On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable. Please help to safe our freedom! http://patinfo.ffii.org/ http://swpat.ffii.org/ cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux ITS Webhosting ab 5 EUR/Monat. UUCP, rawIP und vieles mehr. phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 smsgate: sms.weigelt@metux.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mail wurde mit UUCP versandt. http://www.metux.de/uucp/