Thread: Non-personal blogs on Planet
Hello, right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be associated with a person: "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the blog author" It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending, but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even need to be tackled on. This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. Regards, 1: https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/planet-postgresql/ -- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL User Group European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
> On 24 Feb 2020, at 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be > associated with a person: > > "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the blog author" > > It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending, > but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from > me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even > need to be tackled on. Since you are the publisher (or editor in chief or whatever one wants to call it) of the blog and content, I don't see that as violating the spirit of the policy. I don't feel qualified to judge whether it violates the letter of the policy, but if it does then I would argue for policy change to welcome such content. cheers ./daniel
On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > > Hello, > > right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be > associated with a person: > > "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the > blog author" > > > It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending, > but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from > me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even > need to be tackled on. I would say that this should still be under your name. > This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project > related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects > could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as themselves and not as any particular organizer. -- Vik Fearing
On 24/02/2020 14:59, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> On 24 Feb 2020, at 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote:
>> right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be
>> associated with a person:
>>
>> "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the blog author"
>>
>> It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending,
>> but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from
>> me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even
>> need to be tackled on.
> Since you are the publisher (or editor in chief or whatever one wants to call
> it) of the blog and content, I don't see that as violating the spirit of the
> policy. I don't feel qualified to judge whether it violates the letter of the
> policy, but if it does then I would argue for policy change to welcome such
> content.
This is not specifically about my project, but a general question. I was
told
that the topic of non-personal, project-related blogs was raised before.
If one of the many PostgreSQL projects or conferences wants to publish
on Planet today, it always has to be a person doing that. It can't be a
conference, or a project.
Regards,
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote:
> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be
>> associated with a person:
>>
>> "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the
>> blog author"
>>
>>
>> It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending,
>> but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from
>> me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even
>> need to be tackled on.
> I would say that this should still be under your name.
Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because
I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the
interesting part:
>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project
>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects
>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this.
> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as
> themselves and not as any particular organizer.
Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major
upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that
coming from the project, not from a specific person.
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
> On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote: >> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because > I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the > interesting part: > >>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project >>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects >>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. >> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >> themselves and not as any particular organizer. > > Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major > upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that > coming from the project, not from a specific person. What is the main usecase for anonymized postings? cheers ./daniel
Greetings, * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote: > > On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > > On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote: > >> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > > > Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because > > I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the > > interesting part: > > > >>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project > >>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects > >>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. > >> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as > >> themselves and not as any particular organizer. > > > > Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major > > upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that > > coming from the project, not from a specific person. > > What is the main usecase for anonymized postings? I've been wondering about this too... Conference announcements and major upgrades of related projects are, today, handled through News and Announcements, and News postings are syndicated to @postgresql, which has nearly the reach that @planetpostgres does. Does Planet reach other places that we can see that @postgresql and the News/Announcements don't..? If so, are those places that it would be appropriate to syndicate our News to? Thanks, Stephen
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> On Feb 24, 2020, at 07:46, Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se> wrote: > > What is the main usecase for anonymized postings? Especially for conferences that change staff year-to-year, it seems more appropriate to have posts coming from the conferenceas an organization, rather than being tied to an individual. -- -- Christophe Pettus xof@thebuild.com
On 24/02/2020 16:46, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: >> On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: >> On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote: >>> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > >> Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because >> I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the >> interesting part: >> >>>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project >>>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects >>>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. >>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. >> >> Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major >> upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that >> coming from the project, not from a specific person. > > What is the main usecase for anonymized postings? It's not anonymous, it's coming from the conference. -- Vik Fearing
On 24/02/2020 17:42, Stephen Frost wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote:
>>> On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>>> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:
>>> Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because
>>> I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the
>>> interesting part:
>>>
>>>>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project
>>>>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects
>>>>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this.
>>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as
>>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer.
>>> Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major
>>> upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that
>>> coming from the project, not from a specific person.
>> What is the main usecase for anonymized postings?
> I've been wondering about this too...
>
> Conference announcements and major upgrades of related projects are,
> today, handled through News and Announcements, and News postings are
> syndicated to @postgresql, which has nearly the reach that
> @planetpostgres does.
All the News articles posted by the pgeu-system (Nordic, FOSDEM PGDay,
Paris, pgconf.eu, pgconf.de, Open SF, ...) are posted to Planet, and
they are
all tied to a personal account, rather than a conference account.
If nothing else, I rather see a conference post about News, not an
individual person.
> Does Planet reach other places that we can see that @postgresql and the
> News/Announcements don't..? If so, are those places that it would be
> appropriate to syndicate our News to?
It's not the other places, it's the fact that things are posted to Planet
first, and from there go to @postgresql.
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
> On 24 Feb 2020, at 18:27, Vik Fearing <vik@postgresfriends.org> wrote: > > On 24/02/2020 16:46, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: >>> On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: >>> On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote: >>>> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: >> >>> Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because >>> I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the >>> interesting part: >>> >>>>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project >>>>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects >>>>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. >>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. >>> >>> Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major >>> upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that >>> coming from the project, not from a specific person. >> >> What is the main usecase for anonymized postings? > > It's not anonymous, it's coming from the conference. Correct, it's not anonymous but it's anonymized. Since we already have News and Events on the website, and pgsql-announce@, don't we run the risk of creating an echo chamber if we open up for project news on Planet as well? I realize that the discussion here is larger than just project announcements, but there is a risk IMO. cheers ./daniel
On 24/02/2020 21:50, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> On 24 Feb 2020, at 18:27, Vik Fearing <vik@postgresfriends.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 24/02/2020 16:46, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>>> On 24 Feb 2020, at 16:28, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote:
>>>> On 24/02/2020 15:01, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>>>> On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:
>>>> Yes. Please ignore this project, I merely raised the point because
>>>> I stumbled over this discussion again. The following is the
>>>> interesting part:
>>>>
>>>>>> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project
>>>>>> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects
>>>>>> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this.
>>>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as
>>>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer.
>>>> Indeed. Conference announcements, or things like new major
>>>> upgrades of a tool like pgAdmin ect. Would be nice to have that
>>>> coming from the project, not from a specific person.
>>> What is the main usecase for anonymized postings?
>> It's not anonymous, it's coming from the conference.
> Correct, it's not anonymous but it's anonymized.
>
> Since we already have News and Events on the website, and pgsql-announce@,
> don't we run the risk of creating an echo chamber if we open up for project
> news on Planet as well? I realize that the discussion here is larger than just
> project announcements, but there is a risk IMO.
All the conference news are already posted there. The proposed change
is that they are posted under a conference account, not under a personal
account.
Many projects already post on Planet, but using personal accounts. So
that will not change the echo chamber either.
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: > On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be >> associated with a person: >> >> "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the >> blog author" >> >> >> It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still pending, >> but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from >> me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't even >> need to be tackled on. > > I would say that this should still be under your name. +1 to Vik's point. > >> This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project >> related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects >> could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. > > The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as > themselves and not as any particular organizer. One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on what is being syndicated. That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) Thanks, Jonathan
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On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: >> >> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >> themselves and not as any particular organizer. > > One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of > Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive > higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on > what is being syndicated. > > That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. -- Vik Fearing
> On Feb 25, 2020, at 15:27, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote: > One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > is a person attached to the content. What do we do about things like community conferences, whose identity continues year to year but the staff for which changes? -- -- Christophe Pettus xof@thebuild.com
On 2/25/20 6:39 PM, Vik Fearing wrote: > On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: >> On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: >>> >>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. >> >> One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there >> is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of >> Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive >> higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on >> what is being syndicated. >> >> That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) > > Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? > We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. Problematic blogs certainly receive some combination of advice/warning/suspension/removal. Jonathan
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On 26/02/2020 00:41, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > On 2/25/20 6:39 PM, Vik Fearing wrote: >> On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: >>> On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: >>>> >>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. >>> >>> One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there >>> is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of >>> Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive >>> higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on >>> what is being syndicated. >>> >>> That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) >> >> Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? >> We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. > > Problematic blogs certainly receive some combination of > advice/warning/suspension/removal. Oh good! Then we can change the policy so that community-recognized conferences can post as themselves. -- Vik Fearing
> On Feb 25, 2020, at 15:43, Vik Fearing <vik@postgresfriends.org> wrote: > Oh good! Then we can change the policy so that community-recognized > conferences can post as themselves. That seems like a perfect solution to me. -- -- Christophe Pettus xof@thebuild.com
On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote:
> On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>> On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as
>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer.
>> One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there
>> is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of
>> Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive
>> higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on
>> what is being syndicated.
>>
>> That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :)
> Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet?
> We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy.
Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There
is an anti-spam policy in place.
Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a
content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something
which can limit what can be posted, and how often.
Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents
this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool.
Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as
a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long
as no one starts using loop holes.
Advertising is already forbidden by the existing rules, so this can't be
an issue. 2 strikes, and the problem is gone.
I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content
posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences
and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority.
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 2/25/20 6:50 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote: >> On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: >>> On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: >>>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as >>>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. >>> One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there >>> is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of >>> Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive >>> higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on >>> what is being syndicated. >>> >>> That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) >> Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? >> We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. > > Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There > is an anti-spam policy in place. > > Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a > content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something > which can limit what can be posted, and how often. I'm more in favor of this. My biggest concern is the moderation burden by just allowing anyone to post on behalf of a conference. The turnover point that Christophe made actually heightens that concern (and I do understand it from the other side as well, it is certainly convenient to have people write content without having to register a new blog every year). (...though OTOH, I believe the pgeu software does allow for this) > Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents > this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool. > Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as > a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long > as no one starts using loop holes. (Great, now everyone knows and moderating is going to be that much harder :P) > I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content > posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences > and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority. I'd be in favor for this, with the right policy. Most, if not all, of the content policies are in place, so I would go with one related to the frequency of blog posts. The goal would be to ensure that, much like -announce, we keep the content coming through Planet balanced. We don't want it to be dominated by articles coming from event blogs, but likewise ensure community events have good visibility. Thanks, Jonathan
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On 26/02/2020 00:58, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
On 2/25/20 6:50 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote:On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote:The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as themselves and not as any particular organizer.One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on what is being syndicated. That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :)Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy.Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There is an anti-spam policy in place. Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something which can limit what can be posted, and how often.I'm more in favor of this. My biggest concern is the moderation burden by just allowing anyone to post on behalf of a conference. The turnover point that Christophe made actually heightens that concern (and I do understand it from the other side as well, it is certainly convenient to have people write content without having to register a new blog every year). (...though OTOH, I believe the pgeu software does allow for this)Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool. Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long as no one starts using loop holes.(Great, now everyone knows and moderating is going to be that much harder :P)
Why? Nothing to moderate, it's all valid content ;-)
I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority.I'd be in favor for this, with the right policy. Most, if not all, of the content policies are in place, so I would go with one related to the frequency of blog posts. The goal would be to ensure that, much like -announce, we keep the content coming through Planet balanced. We don't want it to be dominated by articles coming from event blogs, but likewise ensure community events have good visibility.
Traditionally posting frequency on Planet is higher than on -announce.
The problem I see is two-fold: conferences, and projects/tools. Don't think
that anything else needs a non-personal account, certainly not companies.
I don't have a good idea how to policy tools. How about:
Non-personal accounts for PostgreSQL related tools can post about major
version changes, bugfix releases, and content directly related to the project
itself. All other content (as example: tuning, configuration, best practices, ...)
need to be posted from a personal account.
That certainly needs a better wording ...
For conferences:
Non-personal postings for conferences are limited to Community recognized
conferences. The items on the following list can each warrant a separate
posting on Planet:
- Conference announcement
- Call for Papers open
- Call for Sponsors open
- Call for Papers closed
- Schedule published
- Registration open
- Conference starts
- Conference ends
- Summary
- Major conference changes (like date or location change)
Did I miss any major items in the list?
Regards,
-- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL User Group European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:50 AM Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > > On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote: > > On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > >> On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: > >>> The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as > >>> themselves and not as any particular organizer. > >> One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > >> is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of > >> Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive > >> higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on > >> what is being syndicated. > >> > >> That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) > > Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? > > We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. > > Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There > is an anti-spam policy in place. Only *after* they have been delivered to most readers -- there is nobody around to react to a posting within 5 minutes after it has been made. Which is what's needed to prevent it from getting out to the big RSS aggregators as well as places like Twitter. If we want to fix that, we have to do pre-moderation, like we do for -announce. That is a whole different level of commitment, and you will now be looking at hours or days of delays of all other blog posts as well. But sure, it's a decision of priorities between those. -- Magnus Hagander Me: https://www.hagander.net/ Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:26 AM Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > > On 26/02/2020 00:58, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > > On 2/25/20 6:50 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > > On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote: > > On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > > On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: > > The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as > themselves and not as any particular organizer. > > One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of > Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive > higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on > what is being syndicated. > > That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) > > Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? > We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. > > Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There > is an anti-spam policy in place. > > Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a > content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something > which can limit what can be posted, and how often. > > I'm more in favor of this. My biggest concern is the moderation burden > by just allowing anyone to post on behalf of a conference. The turnover > point that Christophe made actually heightens that concern (and I do > understand it from the other side as well, it is certainly convenient to > have people write content without having to register a new blog every year). > > (...though OTOH, I believe the pgeu software does allow for this) > > Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents > this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool. > Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as > a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long > as no one starts using loop holes. > > (Great, now everyone knows and moderating is going to be that much > harder :P) > > > Why? Nothing to moderate, it's all valid content ;-) > > > > I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content > posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences > and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority. > > I'd be in favor for this, with the right policy. Most, if not all, of > the content policies are in place, so I would go with one related to the > frequency of blog posts. The goal would be to ensure that, much like > -announce, we keep the content coming through Planet balanced. We don't > want it to be dominated by articles coming from event blogs, but > likewise ensure community events have good visibility. > > > Traditionally posting frequency on Planet is higher than on -announce. > > The problem I see is two-fold: conferences, and projects/tools. Don't think > that anything else needs a non-personal account, certainly not companies. > > > I don't have a good idea how to policy tools. How about: > > > Non-personal accounts for PostgreSQL related tools can post about major > version changes, bugfix releases, and content directly related to the project > itself. All other content (as example: tuning, configuration, best practices, ...) > need to be posted from a personal account. So if they want to make an announcement of a new feature as well as a tutorial on how to set it up. They have to split that in two? Sure, that particular one can be dealt with, but you're going to have a *lot* of such scenarios showing up. > That certainly needs a better wording ... > > For conferences: > > Non-personal postings for conferences are limited to Community recognized > conferences. The items on the following list can each warrant a separate > posting on Planet: > > Conference announcement > Call for Papers open > Call for Sponsors open > Call for Papers closed > Schedule published > Registration open > Conference starts > Conference ends > Summary > Major conference changes (like date or location change) > > > Did I miss any major items in the list? Speaker changed of a talk? Speaker changed of an important keynote talk? Topic changed of an important keynote talk? Number of tracks changed (can be at least as important as schedule published). Registration closed? Call for sponsors closed? Making a bulletpoint list like that of exactly what is allowed is *always* going to end up something reasonable that's just outside the list. Which makes it very clear that there is absolutely no way that his will work without doing pre-moderation on posts to planet. Are you also volunteering to set up a team to do said pre-moderation and make sure that all posts are moderated within reasonable time, as well as deal with the complaints when they're not? :) //Magnus
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:41 AM Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> wrote: > > > > > On Feb 25, 2020, at 15:27, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote: > > One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > > is a person attached to the content. > > What do we do about things like community conferences, whose identity continues year to year but the staff for which changes? I don't understand the question :). What do we do in what case? Or are you saying that today we don't have this problem, because we don't allow organisations without defined people to post semi-anonymously, but we may create such a problem? If so, then I agree. But the policy today does a decent job of making this a non-problem. -- Magnus Hagander Me: https://www.hagander.net/ Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/
On 26/02/2020 09:31, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:26 AM Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote:On 26/02/2020 00:58, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: On 2/25/20 6:50 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote: On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as themselves and not as any particular organizer. One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on what is being syndicated. That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There is an anti-spam policy in place. Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something which can limit what can be posted, and how often. I'm more in favor of this. My biggest concern is the moderation burden by just allowing anyone to post on behalf of a conference. The turnover point that Christophe made actually heightens that concern (and I do understand it from the other side as well, it is certainly convenient to have people write content without having to register a new blog every year). (...though OTOH, I believe the pgeu software does allow for this) Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool. Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long as no one starts using loop holes. (Great, now everyone knows and moderating is going to be that much harder :P) Why? Nothing to moderate, it's all valid content ;-) I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority. I'd be in favor for this, with the right policy. Most, if not all, of the content policies are in place, so I would go with one related to the frequency of blog posts. The goal would be to ensure that, much like -announce, we keep the content coming through Planet balanced. We don't want it to be dominated by articles coming from event blogs, but likewise ensure community events have good visibility. Traditionally posting frequency on Planet is higher than on -announce. The problem I see is two-fold: conferences, and projects/tools. Don't think that anything else needs a non-personal account, certainly not companies. I don't have a good idea how to policy tools. How about: Non-personal accounts for PostgreSQL related tools can post about major version changes, bugfix releases, and content directly related to the project itself. All other content (as example: tuning, configuration, best practices, ...) need to be posted from a personal account.So if they want to make an announcement of a new feature as well as a tutorial on how to set it up. They have to split that in two?
No, and as I mentioned above, the list is meant as a starting
point, not as a final proposal. If something is not covered in the
list, there are a couple ways:
- It's a clear violation and the guidelines already have a policy for violations in place
- It's something overlooked, and the policy should be amended
That certainly needs a better wording ... For conferences: Non-personal postings for conferences are limited to Community recognized conferences. The items on the following list can each warrant a separate posting on Planet: Conference announcement Call for Papers open Call for Sponsors open Call for Papers closed Schedule published Registration open Conference starts Conference ends Summary Major conference changes (like date or location change) Did I miss any major items in the list?Speaker changed of a talk? Speaker changed of an important keynote talk? Topic changed of an important keynote talk? Number of tracks changed (can be at least as important as schedule published). Registration closed? Call for sponsors closed? Making a bulletpoint list like that of exactly what is allowed is *always* going to end up something reasonable that's just outside the list.
At which point will you find new things for the list? And additional
question: at which point is posting about this against policy today?
It's not that this violates any policy, heck I pointed out the contrary.
It's just that the conference posts this, not Magnus or Andreas.
Which makes it very clear that there is absolutely no way that his will work without doing pre-moderation on posts to planet. Are you also volunteering to set up a team to do said pre-moderation and make sure that all posts are moderated within reasonable time, as well as deal with the complaints when they're not? :)
I don't understand why this needs pre-moderation?
Blogs are still pre-approved, and something which looks fishy
(PostgreSQL 419 Conference in Nigeria) doesn't need to be approved
in the first place. Content-wise nothing is changed with this policy change,
and if there is no need for content moderation today, there is no need
for moderation with a different account. Plus the 3 strike system is in place.
-- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL User Group European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
(what did you do to your MUA, it completely broke gmails ability to reply with quotes :/) On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 03:40:25PM +0100, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > On 26/02/2020 09:31, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:26 AM Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <ads@pgug.de> wrote: > > > On 26/02/2020 00:58, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > > > > > > On 2/25/20 6:50 PM, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > > > > > > On 26/02/2020 00:39, Vik Fearing wrote: > > > > > > On 26/02/2020 00:27, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > > > > > > On 2/24/20 9:01 AM, Vik Fearing wrote: > > > > > > The case I'm interested in, is allowing conferences to post as > > > themselves and not as any particular organizer. > > > > > > One of the main reasons we have the policy in place is to ensure there > > > is a person attached to the content. It does help to reduce the risk of > > > Planet becoming an advertising/spam feed and IMV, it helps to drive > > > higher quality content knowing that someone has to put their name on > > > what is being syndicated. > > > > > > That's a long way of saying that I'm -1 for changing the policy :) > > > > > > Hmm. Do we not have a way of removing problematic blogs from planet? > > > We should fix that, and then we can revisit this policy. > > > > > > Indeed posts can already be removed, and so can entire blogs. There > > > is an anti-spam policy in place. > > > > > > Instead of fighting spam with "tie content to persons", I rather see a > > > content policy. Not as strict as postings to -announce, but something > > > which can limit what can be posted, and how often. > > > > > > I'm more in favor of this. My biggest concern is the moderation burden > > > by just allowing anyone to post on behalf of a conference. The turnover > > > point that Christophe made actually heightens that concern (and I do > > > understand it from the other side as well, it is certainly convenient to > > > have people write content without having to register a new blog every year). > > > > > > (...though OTOH, I believe the pgeu software does allow for this) > > > > > > Right now, if someone plays by the established rules, nothing prevents > > > this person from posting about every single minor release of a tool. > > > Heck, it's not even against policy to post every commit message as > > > a blog post. Clearly the existing policy/strategy is only good as long > > > as no one starts using loop holes. > > > > > > (Great, now everyone knows and moderating is going to be that much > > > harder :P) > > > > > > > > > Why? Nothing to moderate, it's all valid content ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see why this policy can't be expanded to allow certain content > > > posted under, let's say, community accounts. This can be conferences > > > and PostgreSQL related tools. That should already be the majority. > > > > > > I'd be in favor for this, with the right policy. Most, if not all, of > > > the content policies are in place, so I would go with one related to the > > > frequency of blog posts. The goal would be to ensure that, much like > > > -announce, we keep the content coming through Planet balanced. We don't > > > want it to be dominated by articles coming from event blogs, but > > > likewise ensure community events have good visibility. > > > > > > > > > Traditionally posting frequency on Planet is higher than on -announce. > > > > > > The problem I see is two-fold: conferences, and projects/tools. Don't think > > > that anything else needs a non-personal account, certainly not companies. > > > > > > > > > I don't have a good idea how to policy tools. How about: > > > > > > > > > Non-personal accounts for PostgreSQL related tools can post about major > > > version changes, bugfix releases, and content directly related to the project > > > itself. All other content (as example: tuning, configuration, best practices, ...) > > > need to be posted from a personal account. > > So if they want to make an announcement of a new feature as well as a > > tutorial on how to set it up. They have to split that in two? > > No, and as I mentioned above, the list is meant as a starting > point, not as a final proposal. If something is not covered in the > list, there are a couple ways: > > * It's a clear violation and the guidelines already have a policy for > violations in place > * It's something overlooked, and the policy should be amended Right. My point is that having a list in the firt place makes the process very complicated, and will very often require the policy to be updated. Which we all know is a process that takes, ahem, a lot of time. > > > That certainly needs a better wording ... > > > > > > For conferences: > > > > > > Non-personal postings for conferences are limited to Community recognized > > > conferences. The items on the following list can each warrant a separate > > > posting on Planet: > > > > > > Conference announcement > > > Call for Papers open > > > Call for Sponsors open > > > Call for Papers closed > > > Schedule published > > > Registration open > > > Conference starts > > > Conference ends > > > Summary > > > Major conference changes (like date or location change) > > > > > > > > > Did I miss any major items in the list? > > Speaker changed of a talk? > > Speaker changed of an important keynote talk? > > Topic changed of an important keynote talk? > > Number of tracks changed (can be at least as important as schedule published). > > Registration closed? > > Call for sponsors closed? > > > > Making a bulletpoint list like that of exactly what is allowed is > > *always* going to end up something reasonable that's just outside the > > list. > > At which point will you find new things for the list? And additional > question: at which point is posting about this against policy today? > > It's not that this violates any policy, heck I pointed out the contrary. > It's just that the conference posts this, not Magnus or Andreas. You're the one who's making a list of what's allowed. So you then need to make that list complete. Again, I'm saying that making a policy based on such a list is inherently going to be a massive PITA to deal with. > > Which makes it very clear that there is absolutely no way that his > > will work without doing pre-moderation on posts to planet. > > > > Are you also volunteering to set up a team to do said pre-moderation > > and make sure that all posts are moderated within reasonable time, as > > well as deal with the complaints when they're not? :) > > I don't understand why this needs pre-moderation? Based on the experience of the kind of crap we get at other venues, such as the postings to the main website, where we do allow such posts? Those things *are* pre-moderated. > Blogs are still pre-approved, and something which looks fishy > (PostgreSQL 419 Conference in Nigeria) doesn't need to be approved > in the first place. Content-wise nothing is changed with this policy change, Based on that, sure, anything where people are not willing to sign off on who is writing it sounds fishy to me, so thus no personal blogs :) > and if there is no need for content moderation today, there is no need > for moderation with a different account. Plus the 3 strike system is in > place. There is arguably some need for content moderation today. Because the kind of post-moderation that's done today only removes things after it has been delivered to tens of thousands of people. It does take it out of the future google searches, yes, but that's all. But sure, if we say "we allow non-personal posts from trusted entities only", then we just have to define what we mean by "trusted entity". And if you're just saying "oh community approved conferences", then you have to explain why just those (and no, "i want to post for those" is not a good reason -- if it was, I would've been doing so myself a long time ago). And you're putting an even *heavier* burden on the ideas around the community conference approval process, which is already hard anough as it is. And you also say for "tools". But which tools? What are the rules to decide them, and who decides that they are in relation to them? And apart from that, if all the community conferences start actually posting all those things that you have on your list to planet, then planet will primarily turn into an "announcement for conferences" resource, which I'm pretty sure most of them don't want. One thing that could perhaps be done around that is to create the ability to have multiple feeds on planet. Then people could *choose* if they want to include just blog posts, or also conferenec announcements, or also non-personal blog posts etc. Being able to separate things out like that would certainly make the moderation less important, because readers themselves can choose to pre-filter. //Magnus
On 24/02/2020 14:22, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > > Hello, > > right now, the posting policy[1] for Planet is that every blog must be > associated with a person: > > "Blogs should be submitted by a community account in the name of the > blog author" > > > It so happens that I have a new project coming up (approval still > pending, > but submitted under my name) where the content is not about me, or from > me, but a series of interviews. That's something where my name doesn't > even > need to be tackled on. > > > This raises the question if blogs can be non-personal, but project > related, or company related. Any of the related PostgreSQL projects > could post updates, without using personal accounts for this. So I gather having personal accounts tied to this is primarily a way to make sure that people don't spam. I'm still not sure if this policy is useful, or what stops anyone from legally posting every Slonik picture one by one on Planet, but ok. The main reason this discussion comes up is that people use their very personal accounts to post something which is project or conference related. For an outsider, this might even be confusing: why isn't the conference posting these news, why a person. Another proposal, and a compromise: How about specific blog feeds (like: a conference feed) are tied to a personal account, but author (and maybe category name) can be specified. Looking at the current top post on Planet as an example, there are a few broken and unclear things: pgDay Paris 2020 - Interview with Daniel Vérité Author: Vik Fearing Category: PostgreSQL Europe Immediately this raises the question why such a posting is in "PostgreSQL Europe", when the conference is pgDay Paris. Clicking on the link under the title brings me to "Latest News", instead of the actual interview - but I assume that is broken on either the Paris website or the PGEU news system. https://2020.pgday.paris/##31 Clicking on "PostgreSQL Europe" brings me to the PGEU site, but this is not pgDay Paris either. https://www.postgresql.eu/ And for any outsider: who is this Vik guy? Why is he posting an interview when the title talks about a conference. Clicking on his name also brings me to the PGEU main website, where I rather would expect a list of postings by this account. If this specific feed is modified to still be tied to Vik's account, but shows "pgDay Paris Team" as author, then the content ownership and responsibility is given, but the actual Planet posting is more reasonable and makes sense. Also Vik is in charge to see who can post on this specific feed. Regards, -- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL User Group European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 2020-02-26 21:33, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: > So I gather having personal accounts tied to this is primarily a way > to make sure that people don't spam. I'm still not sure if this policy is > useful, or what stops anyone from legally posting every Slonik > picture one by one on Planet, but ok. > > > The main reason this discussion comes up is that people use their very > personal accounts to post something which is project or conference related. > For an outsider, this might even be confusing: why isn't the conference > posting these news, why a person. Another aspect of this is a quasi-journalistic principle: News and announcements are, well, news; blog posts are opinion pieces. It's useful to keep those separate, and different criteria should apply. Personally, as a consumer of planet, I wouldn't want conference-related announcements mixed into the feed. That's what the news section and conference listings are for. -- Peter Eisentraut http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
On 04/03/2020 08:04, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> On 2020-02-26 21:33, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:
>> So I gather having personal accounts tied to this is primarily a way
>> to make sure that people don't spam. I'm still not sure if this
>> policy is
>> useful, or what stops anyone from legally posting every Slonik
>> picture one by one on Planet, but ok.
>>
>>
>> The main reason this discussion comes up is that people use their very
>> personal accounts to post something which is project or conference
>> related.
>> For an outsider, this might even be confusing: why isn't the conference
>> posting these news, why a person.
>
> Another aspect of this is a quasi-journalistic principle: News and
> announcements are, well, news; blog posts are opinion pieces. It's
> useful to keep those separate, and different criteria should apply.
>
> Personally, as a consumer of planet, I wouldn't want
> conference-related announcements mixed into the feed. That's what the
> news section and conference listings are for.
>
They are mixed into your feed today, just as a posting from a person,
not as a posting from a project or conference.
Same content though.
--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project
On 2020-03-05 07:12, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote: >> Personally, as a consumer of planet, I wouldn't want >> conference-related announcements mixed into the feed. That's what the >> news section and conference listings are for. > > They are mixed into your feed today, just as a posting from a person, > not as a posting from a project or conference. > Same content though. Maybe, but there is still a difference between "this is not really what this is supposed to be for, but I can skip past it" and specifically creating a policy that encourages this sort of thing. -- Peter Eisentraut http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services