Thread: Alternatives to Dell?
Folks, A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Jeff, > I'm curious about the problem's you're seeing with Dell servers since > we're about to buy some 750s, 2850s and 1850s. The problems I've been dealing with have been on the *650s. They're the ones you name. > FYI ... the 750s, 1850s and 2850s use Intel chipsets (E7520 on 1850s > and 2850s, 7210 on 750s), Intel NICs, and come only with LSI Logic > RAID controllers. It looks like Dell has dropped the > Broadcom/ServerWorks and Adaptec junk. I don't know if Vivek is on this list; I think he just had a critical failure with one of the new Dells with LSI. -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
I recommend IBM equipment, but in the spirit of caveat emptor I should let
you know I work for IBM... :-)
Seriously, I've been using IBM laptops and desktops for about 5 years, even
before I started working for them. They tend to be a little more expensive
than Dell, but I think they use beefier components and don't cut the specs
quite as close as Dell does. IBM gear is designed more for industrial use
than home computing, which is reflected in the quality (and the price).
IBM just released a new series of PowerPC-based servers that are
specifically designed to run Linux. They're at the higher end, but from
what I understand, they provide much more bang for the buck than
Intel-based servers.
I hope this helps,
--- Steve
___________________________________________________________________________________
Steven Rosenstein
Senior IT Architect/Specialist | IBM Virtual Server Administration
Voice/FAX: 845-689-2064 | Cell: 646-345-6978 | Tieline: 930-6001
Text Messaging: 6463456978 @ mobile.mycingular.com
Email: srosenst @ us.ibm.com
"Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't live long enough to
make them all yourself." -- Eleanor Roosevelt
Josh Berkus
<josh@agliodbs.co
m> To
Sent by: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org
pgsql-performance cc
-owner@postgresql
.org Subject
[PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell?
12/01/2004 05:24
PM
Please respond to
josh
Folks,
A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately.
It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers.
Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier
vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what
vendors
do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad
experiences?
--
--Josh
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Josh, Steve: I have also been looking at non-dell server vendors due to recent concerns about the PERC RAID Controllers. That said, I believe IBM just shoots itself in the foot via its sales/pricing practices.... Price out a PE2850 w/ 8GB RAM and 6 18GB Drives on the Dell website and you'll get a number in the $9-10K range. Talk to your sales rep and you can get a $1-2K discount(total $7-8K). That seems fair and it wins alot of business. Go the IBM website, try to find a comparative x86 system and spec it out. The list pricing is in the $12-16K range. Yes, I know I could get a good discount if I developed a relationship with an IBM reseller here..and perhaps the end pricing would be in the $10-12K range....but the Dell way just seems alot more honest to me, and reasonable. The IBM gear doesn't seem that much better. And while I have concerns about some of the Dell hardware, none of the issues have really caused any issues for me or my clients here yet.....(crossing fingers..) I just don't think IBM makes it easy for new customers to buy their equipment and if I went with them, I'd always have the lingering suspicion that I was paying too much. I really hope they change some day... Until then, I just see Dell winning more of the server market share. Regards, Matt --- Original Message--- To: josh@agliodbs.com Cc: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org From: Steven Rosenstein <srosenst@us.ibm.com> Sent: 12/01/2004 4:17PM Subject: Re: [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell? >> >> >> >> >> I recommend IBM equipment, but in the spirit of caveat emptor I should let >> you know I work for IBM... :-) >> >> Seriously, I've been using IBM laptops and desktops for about 5 years, even >> before I started working for them. They tend to be a little more expensive >> than Dell, but I think they use beefier components and don't cut the specs >> quite as close as Dell does. IBM gear is designed more for industrial use >> than home computing, which is reflected in the quality (and the price). >> >> IBM just released a new series of PowerPC-based servers that are >> specifically designed to run Linux. They're at the higher end, but from >> what I understand, they provide much more bang for the buck than >> Intel-based servers. >> >> I hope this helps, >> --- Steve >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> ___________ >> >> Steven Rosenstein >> Senior IT Architect/Specialist | IBM Virtual Server Administration >> Voice/FAX: 845-689-2064 | Cell: 646-345-6978 | Tieline: 930-6001 >> Text Messaging: 6463456978 @ mobile.mycingular.com >> Email: srosenst @ us.ibm.com >> >> "Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't live long enough to >> make them all yourself." -- Eleanor Roosevelt >> >> >> >> Josh Berkus >> <josh@agliodbs.co >> m> To >> Sent by: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org >> pgsql-performance cc >> -owner@postgresql >> .org Subject >> [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell? >> >> 12/01/2004 05:24 >> PM >> >> >> Please respond to >> josh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. >> >> It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. >> >> Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier >> vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what >> vendors >> do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad >> experiences? >> >> -- >> --Josh >> >> Josh Berkus >> Aglio Database Solutions >> San Francisco >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? >> >> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html >> >> >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >>
Matthew Marlowe wrote: > I just don't think IBM makes it easy for new customers to buy their > equipment and if I went with them, I'd always have the lingering > suspicion that I was paying too much. > > I really hope they change some day... Until then, I just see Dell > winning more of the server market share. Something to be said for the old saying, 'you get what you pay for.' -- Until later, Geoffrey
I always say 'If you pay for quality it only hurts once', but then again I don't equate high price with high quality ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey" <esoteric@3times25.net> > Something to be said for the old saying, 'you get what you pay for.'
> > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? Well this is almost as bad as vi/emacs ;) but I have had good experience with Compaq Proliant (now HP) servers. I have also "heard" good things about IBM. IBM actually sells a reasonable costing Opteron server as well. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP. Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
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> >Go the IBM website, try to find a comparative x86 system and >spec it out. The list pricing is in the $12-16K range. Yes, I know >I could get a good discount if I developed a relationship with >an IBM reseller here..and perhaps the end pricing would be >in the $10-12K range....but the Dell way just seems alot more honest >to me, and reasonable. The IBM gear doesn't seem that much better. > > It is my experience that IBM will get within 5% of Dell if you provide IBM with a written quote from Dell. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >And while I have concerns about some of the Dell >hardware, none of the issues have really caused any issues for me or my clients >here yet.....(crossing fingers..) > >I just don't think IBM makes it easy for new customers to buy their equipment and >if I went with them, I'd always have the lingering suspicion that I was paying too much. > >I really hope they change some day... Until then, I just see Dell winning more of the >server market share. > >Regards, >Matt >--- Original Message--- > To: josh@agliodbs.com > Cc: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org > From: Steven Rosenstein <srosenst@us.ibm.com> > Sent: 12/01/2004 4:17PM > Subject: Re: [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell? > > > >>> >>> >>>I recommend IBM equipment, but in the spirit of caveat emptor I should let >>>you know I work for IBM... :-) >>> >>>Seriously, I've been using IBM laptops and desktops for about 5 years, even >>>before I started working for them. They tend to be a little more expensive >>>than Dell, but I think they use beefier components and don't cut the specs >>>quite as close as Dell does. IBM gear is designed more for industrial use >>>than home computing, which is reflected in the quality (and the price). >>> >>>IBM just released a new series of PowerPC-based servers that are >>>specifically designed to run Linux. They're at the higher end, but from >>>what I understand, they provide much more bang for the buck than >>>Intel-based servers. >>> >>>I hope this helps, >>>--- Steve >>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>___________ >>> >>>Steven Rosenstein >>>Senior IT Architect/Specialist | IBM Virtual Server Administration >>>Voice/FAX: 845-689-2064 | Cell: 646-345-6978 | Tieline: 930-6001 >>>Text Messaging: 6463456978 @ mobile.mycingular.com >>>Email: srosenst @ us.ibm.com >>> >>>"Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't live long enough to >>>make them all yourself." -- Eleanor Roosevelt >>> >>> >>> >>> Josh Berkus >>> <josh@agliodbs.co >>> m> To >>> Sent by: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org >>> pgsql-performance cc >>> -owner@postgresql >>> .org Subject >>> [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell? >>> >>> 12/01/2004 05:24 >>> PM >>> >>> >>> Please respond to >>> josh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Folks, >>> >>>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. >>> >>>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. >>> >>>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier >>>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what >>>vendors >>>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad >>>experiences? >>> >>>-- >>>--Josh >>> >>>Josh Berkus >>>Aglio Database Solutions >>>San Francisco >>> >>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>>TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? >>> >>> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html >>> >>> >>> >>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >>> >>> >>> > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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Iain wrote: > I always say 'If you pay for quality it only hurts once', but then again > I don't equate high price with high quality ;-) True, but if you do your research, you'll more likely to get high quality with high price then you are high quality with low price. -- Until later, Geoffrey
Josh Berkus wrote: > Jeff, > > >>I'm curious about the problem's you're seeing with Dell servers since >>we're about to buy some 750s, 2850s and 1850s. > > > The problems I've been dealing with have been on the *650s. They're the ones > you name. > > >>FYI ... the 750s, 1850s and 2850s use Intel chipsets (E7520 on 1850s >>and 2850s, 7210 on 750s), Intel NICs, and come only with LSI Logic >>RAID controllers. It looks like Dell has dropped the >>Broadcom/ServerWorks and Adaptec junk. > > > I don't know if Vivek is on this list; I think he just had a critical failure > with one of the new Dells with LSI. > On this note about "Adaptec junk", I have a question regarding hardware as well. We tend to build a lot of servers in house (Supermicro based with the Zero-channel raid). Does anyone have any anecdotal or empirical data on using a ZCR card versus a full-blown RAID controller (adaptec or other)?? I am trying to build a medium-duty database server with 8G RAM, 4x144GB U320 Scsi RAID 10, FreeBSD (5.3-stable or 4-stable) and was wondering about performance differences between ZCR and Adaptec versus other manufacturers' Full-RAID cards. (PCI-E) Sven
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:24:12 -0800, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. > It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. Which is a shame, because I *still* drool over a rack full of those front bevels with the bright blue LEDs. :) > > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? I'm using an HP DL585 quad Opteron with 16G RAM as a development box. It's working great. ;) Seriously though, I never really liked HP (or worse, Compaq) hardware before, but this box seems really well built, and I've yet to see a 'D' in the S column in top with the SA-6404/256 RAID card. If all goes as well as it has so far on this testbed I'll be deploying on a Slony-1 clustered set of 3 of these bad boys with 32G RAM each. Dollar-for-dollar, we're saving 90% (that's right, an order of magnitude) going this route, PG with linux-amd64 on HP/Opterons, as opposed to the E20K monster that was originally spec'd out. Mail me direct if you want the full spec list on this beast. And if there is a ready-made benchmark anyone would like me to run, just drop me a note. -- Mike Rylander mrylander@gmail.com GPLS -- PINES Development Database Developer http://open-ils.org
Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware > lately. It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the > Dell servers. > > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least > 2nd-tier vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those > people, what vendors do others on this list recommend? What have > been your good/bad experiences? My experience with Dell is they are not reliable as well. Half way between the big guys and home built. I've had good success with Monarch Computers. They've had ads in Linux Journal for a while and a couple of their boxes have been reviewed there. As a matter of fact, in the December issue, they did a review of a dual operton from Monarch. http://www.monarchcomputer.com/ -- Until later, Geoffrey
> Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware > lately. > It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. > > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what > vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad > experiences? Well, there is always HP and (if money is no object) IBM or Sun. For the budget or performance minded I'd suggest checking out SWT servers (http://www.swt.com) ...not sure what tier they fit into but they can get you into a quad Opteron for under 10k$ US, about half what you would pay for a comparable HP server (and Dell doesn't even offer Opteron). Also, if choice of RAID controller is an option, I'd definitely suggest 3ware. They are cheap, have excellent linux support (including open source drivers), and have the options you'd expect form a decent raid controller including a BBU. I just picked up one of their escalade SATA controllers and am really impressed with it. I'd definitely suggest Opteron...cooler, faster, and 64 bit. Another reason not to go with Dell. Merlin
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:24:12 -0800 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware > lately. It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the > Dell servers. I believe I had expressed some problems with Dell in the past, but it really isn't a quality control issue that I have seen. It is more of a Linux support issue. Lately I've been running into problems with getting particular parts of system working under Linux (raid cards, SATA drives, Ethernet cards) or I can get it working, but it performs badly ( PERC cards vs say a Mylex card ). I think it's more of a system design issue ( wrt Linux use ) rather than a quality issue. --------------------------------- Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org> http://www.wiles.org ---------------------------------
Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. > It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. Was the quality ever there with Dell? > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? I use Supermicro and have liked them. They make motherboards and systems. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Not in my experience for IBM, even for an order approaching 100k. The sales guy was rude, jumping on numbers, unable to
talkabout exactly what differentiates IBM from Dell (equivalent config) - other than the name and their 20K+
difference.
We use many Dell servers, no quality issue, but as someone pointed out earlier, linux support is not that great.
Only issue so far hardware wise is the PERC card on one of the machines, and i believe one should stay away from the
adaptecversions of PERC.
-anjan
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com]
Sent: Wed 12/1/2004 9:15 PM
To: Matthew Marlowe
Cc: Steven Rosenstein; josh@agliodbs.com; pgsql-performance@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell?
>
>Go the IBM website, try to find a comparative x86 system and
>spec it out. The list pricing is in the $12-16K range. Yes, I know
>I could get a good discount if I developed a relationship with
>an IBM reseller here..and perhaps the end pricing would be
>in the $10-12K range....but the Dell way just seems alot more honest
>to me, and reasonable. The IBM gear doesn't seem that much better.
>
>
It is my experience that IBM will get within 5% of Dell if you
provide IBM with a written quote from Dell.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>And while I have concerns about some of the Dell
>hardware, none of the issues have really caused any issues for me or my clients
>here yet.....(crossing fingers..)
>
>I just don't think IBM makes it easy for new customers to buy their equipment and
>if I went with them, I'd always have the lingering suspicion that I was paying too much.
>
>I really hope they change some day... Until then, I just see Dell winning more of the
>server market share.
>
>Regards,
>Matt
>--- Original Message---
> To: josh@agliodbs.com
> Cc: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org
> From: Steven Rosenstein <srosenst@us.ibm.com>
> Sent: 12/01/2004 4:17PM
> Subject: Re: [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell?
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>I recommend IBM equipment, but in the spirit of caveat emptor I should let
>>>you know I work for IBM... :-)
>>>
>>>Seriously, I've been using IBM laptops and desktops for about 5 years, even
>>>before I started working for them. They tend to be a little more expensive
>>>than Dell, but I think they use beefier components and don't cut the specs
>>>quite as close as Dell does. IBM gear is designed more for industrial use
>>>than home computing, which is reflected in the quality (and the price).
>>>
>>>IBM just released a new series of PowerPC-based servers that are
>>>specifically designed to run Linux. They're at the higher end, but from
>>>what I understand, they provide much more bang for the buck than
>>>Intel-based servers.
>>>
>>>I hope this helps,
>>>--- Steve
>>>________________________________________________________________________
>>>___________
>>>
>>>Steven Rosenstein
>>>Senior IT Architect/Specialist | IBM Virtual Server Administration
>>>Voice/FAX: 845-689-2064 | Cell: 646-345-6978 | Tieline: 930-6001
>>>Text Messaging: 6463456978 @ mobile.mycingular.com
>>>Email: srosenst @ us.ibm.com
>>>
>>>"Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't live long enough to
>>>make them all yourself." -- Eleanor Roosevelt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Berkus
>>> <josh@agliodbs.co
>>> m> To
>>> Sent by: pgsql-performance@postgresql.org
>>> pgsql-performance cc
>>> -owner@postgresql
>>> .org Subject
>>> [PERFORM] Alternatives to Dell?
>>>
>>> 12/01/2004 05:24
>>> PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Please respond to
>>> josh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Folks,
>>>
>>>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately.
>>>
>>>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers.
>>>
>>>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier
>>>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what
>>>vendors
>>>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad
>>>experiences?
>>>
>>>--
>>>--Josh
>>>
>>>Josh Berkus
>>>Aglio Database Solutions
>>>San Francisco
>>>
>>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>>TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>>>
>>> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
>
>
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
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Merlin Moncure wrote: > For the budget or performance minded I'd suggest checking out SWT > servers (http://www.swt.com) ...not sure what tier they fit into but > they can get you into a quad Opteron for under 10k$ US, about half what > you would pay for a comparable HP server (and Dell doesn't even offer > Opteron). You can do the same with Monarch Computers. A 4u quad opteron. You can also pay a lot more, depends on the configuration. They have a very nice site for building a system as you want. -- Until later, Geoffrey
Josh Berkus wrote: > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? I've had very good experiences with IBM hardware, and found their sales and support to be responsive. Joe
Dave Cramer wrote: > Well, I've personally seen IBM's that were slower than Dell's, and > Dell's aren't particularly fast. > > I'm currently trying to find a name brand computer that is as fast as > something I could build myself. So far the HP looks like the fastest, > but still not as fast as a machine built from scratch > SuperMicro seems to be pretty good as Bruce mentioned. I've been very impressed with the Monarch machines. They are well built, with good quality components. They are meticulously assembled, with special care taken with cable routing and such. Very quiet machines as well and that's not easy with AMD processors. These folks also specialize in Linux boxes and they preload Linux. You won't find that with most of the large vendors. Plus, you can call and actually talk to one of the folks who's actually building the box. It's unlikely you'll get that kind of service from any of the big guys. As far as Dell is concerned, I've heard nothing but problems from other folks using their boxes, both servers and desktops. My personal experience reflects the same. -- Until later, Geoffrey
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:25:03PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > I use Supermicro and have liked them. They make motherboards and systems. Many of their rack-based servers seem to be near-impossible to fit in a rack, though. :-) (Many of their 4U servers are just desktop cases which you can turn on their sides and apply an extra kit onto, and into the rack it goes... after a lot of pain. :-) ) /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:43:10PM -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote: > Also, if choice of RAID controller is an option, I'd definitely suggest > 3ware. They are cheap, have excellent linux support (including open > source drivers) The drivers are open source, but the management tools are not. (This is quite impractical for us running other distributions than Red Hat or SuSE, at least.) /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/
I've been at companies where we've had good experiences with Penguin Computing servers. http://www.penguincomputing.com/ I always evaluate their offerings when considering server purchases or recommendations. -tfo -- Thomas F. O'Connell Co-Founder, Information Architect Sitening, LLC http://www.sitening.com/ 110 30th Avenue North, Suite 6 Nashville, TN 37203-6320 615-260-0005
Well, I've personally seen IBM's that were slower than Dell's, and Dell's aren't particularly fast. I'm currently trying to find a name brand computer that is as fast as something I could build myself. So far the HP looks like the fastest, but still not as fast as a machine built from scratch SuperMicro seems to be pretty good as Bruce mentioned. Dave Geoffrey wrote: > Merlin Moncure wrote: > >> For the budget or performance minded I'd suggest checking out SWT >> servers (http://www.swt.com) ...not sure what tier they fit into but >> they can get you into a quad Opteron for under 10k$ US, about half what >> you would pay for a comparable HP server (and Dell doesn't even offer >> Opteron). > > > You can do the same with Monarch Computers. A 4u quad opteron. You > can also pay a lot more, depends on the configuration. They have a > very nice site for building a system as you want. > -- Dave Cramer http://www.postgresintl.com 519 939 0336 ICQ#14675561
> On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:43:10PM -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote: > > Also, if choice of RAID controller is an option, I'd definitely suggest > > 3ware. They are cheap, have excellent linux support (including open > > source drivers) > > The drivers are open source, but the management tools are not. (This is > quite > impractical for us running other distributions than Red Hat or SuSE, at > least.) Ah, good point. FWIW, 3ware also supports FreeBSD. It is hard to understand why they don't open source their utilities... Merlin
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Folks,
>
> A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately.
> It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers.
>
> Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier
> vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors
> do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences?
We use a bunch of HP ProLiant DL360 and DL380 without any problems at
all.
regards,
Robin
Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of years under the Newisys name. I'm using dozens of them for web servers and PG servers and so far both the v20z and v40z have been excellent performers with solid reliability. The pricing was also competitive since Sun is looking to break into the market. On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. > It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. > > Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? >
Cott Lang wrote: >Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of >years under the Newisys name. I'm using dozens of them for web servers >and PG servers and so far both the v20z and v40z have been excellent >performers with solid reliability. The pricing was also competitive >since Sun is looking to break into the market. > > Really? I am not being sarcastic, but I found their prices pretty sad. Did you go direct or web purchase? I have thought about using them several times but.... Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > >On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > >>Folks, >> >>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. >>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. >> >>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier >>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors >>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? >> >> >> > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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Most of mine I got through a Sun reseller. Some of mine I got off of Ebay. You should be able to get them a lot cheaper than than retail web pricing. :) However, even full retail seems like it was a hell of a lot cheaper for a v40z than a DL585. :) On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 06:30 -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Cott Lang wrote: > > >Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of > >years under the Newisys name. I'm using dozens of them for web servers > >and PG servers and so far both the v20z and v40z have been excellent > >performers with solid reliability. The pricing was also competitive > >since Sun is looking to break into the market. > > > > > Really? I am not being sarcastic, but I found their prices pretty sad. > Did you go direct or web purchase? I have thought about using them > several times but.... > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > > > > > > > >On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > > > >>Folks, > >> > >>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. > >>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. > >> > >>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > >>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > >>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > > > > >
Cott Lang wrote: >Most of mine I got through a Sun reseller. Some of mine I got off of >Ebay. You should be able to get them a lot cheaper than than retail web >pricing. :) > >However, even full retail seems like it was a hell of a lot cheaper for >a v40z than a DL585. :) > > That's true :) One of the reasons the compaq's are expensive is they supposedly use a quad board, even for the dual machine. Which means a different opteron chip as well. I don't know this for a fact, it is just what one of their "ahem" sales guys told me. The IBM machines are seem reasonable though. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > >On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 06:30 -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > >>Cott Lang wrote: >> >> >> >>>Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of >>>years under the Newisys name. I'm using dozens of them for web servers >>>and PG servers and so far both the v20z and v40z have been excellent >>>performers with solid reliability. The pricing was also competitive >>>since Sun is looking to break into the market. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Really? I am not being sarcastic, but I found their prices pretty sad. >>Did you go direct or web purchase? I have thought about using them >>several times but.... >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Joshua D. Drake >> >> >> >> >> >>>On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Folks, >>>> >>>>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. >>>>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. >>>> >>>>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier >>>>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors >>>>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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We were originally heading towards an IBM deployment, but the 325 was all that was available at the time, and it only supported 12GB. Then when I heard they canceled their rumored quad processor 350, I feared Intel/AMD politics and IBM dropped from the running. :) (IBM now has the 326 that supports 16GB of RAM) On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 06:38 -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Cott Lang wrote: > > >Most of mine I got through a Sun reseller. Some of mine I got off of > >Ebay. You should be able to get them a lot cheaper than than retail web > >pricing. :) > > > >However, even full retail seems like it was a hell of a lot cheaper for > >a v40z than a DL585. :) > > > > > That's true :) One of the reasons the compaq's are expensive > is they supposedly use a quad board, even for the dual machine. > Which means a different opteron chip as well. > > I don't know this for a fact, it is just what one of their > "ahem" sales guys told me. > > The IBM machines are seem reasonable though. > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > > > > > >On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 06:30 -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > >>Cott Lang wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of > >>>years under the Newisys name. I'm using dozens of them for web servers > >>>and PG servers and so far both the v20z and v40z have been excellent > >>>performers with solid reliability. The pricing was also competitive > >>>since Sun is looking to break into the market. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Really? I am not being sarcastic, but I found their prices pretty sad. > >>Did you go direct or web purchase? I have thought about using them > >>several times but.... > >> > >>Sincerely, > >> > >>Joshua D. Drake > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 14:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Folks, > >>>> > >>>>A lot of people have been having a devilish time with Dell hardware lately. > >>>>It seems like the quality control just isn't there on the Dell servers. > >>>> > >>>>Thing is, some companies are required to use 1st-tier or at least 2nd-tier > >>>>vendors for hardware; they won't home-build. For those people, what vendors > >>>>do others on this list recommend? What have been your good/bad experiences? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >>>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 06:38:50 -0800, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > That's true :) One of the reasons the compaq's are expensive > is they supposedly use a quad board, even for the dual machine. > Which means a different opteron chip as well. I can confirm that. You have a choice of CPUs, but all the DL585s are expandable to 4 procs if you get the 800 series Opterons. Each CPU sits on it's own daughter board that links up the HyperTransport busses between all the others. Each CPU card has (I think...) 8 slots for DIMMS, for a max of 64G. > > I don't know this for a fact, it is just what one of their > "ahem" sales guys told me. > At least in that case they were being accurate. ;) -- Mike Rylander mrylander@gmail.com GPLS -- PINES Development Database Developer http://open-ils.org
On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 20:53 -0500, Mike Rylander wrote: > On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 06:38:50 -0800, Joshua D. Drake > <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > That's true :) One of the reasons the compaq's are expensive > > is they supposedly use a quad board, even for the dual machine. > > Which means a different opteron chip as well. > > I can confirm that. You have a choice of CPUs, but all the DL585s are > expandable to 4 procs if you get the 800 series Opterons. Each CPU > sits on it's own daughter board that links up the HyperTransport > busses between all the others. Each CPU card has (I think...) 8 slots > for DIMMS, for a max of 64G. Why would I want that giant beast when a 1U will do for dual opterons? :) The V40zs have dual procs on the main board with a daughter board for the other two procs. Each CPU has 4 DIMM slots. Sun has the daughter boards for an outrageous price, but you can buy white box Newisys daughter boards for a lot less. The 64GB of 2GB DIMMs I am jealous of, other than that, the DL585 is so outrageously priced I never considered it.
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 07:19:37AM -0700, Cott Lang wrote:
> Consider Sun's new line of Opterons. They've been around for a couple of
I wouldn't buy a ray of sunshine from Sun in the middle of January at
the north pole, given the customer experience I had with them. They
had consistent failures in some critical hardware, and it was like
asking them to donate a kidney when we tried to get the things fixed.
Finally, they told us that they'd sell us the new line of hardware
instead. In other words, "The last version was broken, but _this_
one works! We promise!" We told them to take a long walk off a
short pier. Their service people sure _try_ hard in the field, but
some machines required three and four visits to fix.
I also find the Sun Opteron offering to be way overpriced compared to
the competition.
In case it's not obvious, I don't speak for my employer.
A
--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
This work was visionary and imaginative, and goes to show that visionary
and imaginative work need not end up well.
--Dennis Ritchie
>>>>> "FW" == Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org> writes: FW> I believe I had expressed some problems with Dell in the past, but FW> it really isn't a quality control issue that I have seen. It is more FW> of a Linux support issue. Lately I've been running into problems with Ditto that experience, but with FreeBSD. FW> getting particular parts of system working under Linux (raid cards, FW> SATA drives, Ethernet cards) or I can get it working, but it FW> performs badly ( PERC cards vs say a Mylex card ). Drivers for their devices are not problems, but performance is. Their RAID cards are either Adaptec or LSI, but people who use the "real" branded versions of those cards always seem to get better performance. Way better. I'm considering FreeBSD systems and a custom built configuration right now. Very hard decision to make. For desktops and web/office servers, I still like the Dells. Just not for the DB servers anymore. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vivek Khera, Ph.D. Khera Communications, Inc. Internet: khera@kciLink.com Rockville, MD +1-301-869-4449 x806 AIM: vivekkhera Y!: vivek_khera http://www.khera.org/~vivek/
>>>>> "JB" == Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: >> FYI ... the 750s, 1850s and 2850s use Intel chipsets (E7520 on 1850s >> and 2850s, 7210 on 750s), Intel NICs, and come only with LSI Logic >> RAID controllers. It looks like Dell has dropped the >> Broadcom/ServerWorks and Adaptec junk. JB> I don't know if Vivek is on this list; I think he just had a JB> critical failure with one of the new Dells with LSI. I'm here, but time delayed :-) No critical failures on the Dell, just performance failure. It can't keep up. You'd think with a box like this: 4GB RAM Dual Xeon (32 bit) PERC3 (LSI based controller) dual channel chan0: RAID1 two disks for OS + pg_xlog chan1: RAID5 14 disks U320 18Gb FreeBSD 4.10 PG 7.4.6 I should get better than a sustained 6MB/s I/O throughput with peaks to 30MB/s and about 30% the tracks/sec others report with name-brand LSI controllers with Opteron systems. The computer is wicked fast, but the I/O can't hold up, and I can't get a straight answer as to why. I'm no closer to solving the vendor problem than anyone else here. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vivek Khera, Ph.D. Khera Communications, Inc. Internet: khera@kciLink.com Rockville, MD +1-301-869-4449 x806 AIM: vivekkhera Y!: vivek_khera http://www.khera.org/~vivek/
Vivek Khera wrote: > >>>>> "FW" == Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org> writes: > > FW> I believe I had expressed some problems with Dell in the past, but > FW> it really isn't a quality control issue that I have seen. It is more > FW> of a Linux support issue. Lately I've been running into problems with > > Ditto that experience, but with FreeBSD. > > FW> getting particular parts of system working under Linux (raid cards, > FW> SATA drives, Ethernet cards) or I can get it working, but it > FW> performs badly ( PERC cards vs say a Mylex card ). > > Drivers for their devices are not problems, but performance is. > > Their RAID cards are either Adaptec or LSI, but people who use the > "real" branded versions of those cards always seem to get better > performance. Way better. > > I'm considering FreeBSD systems and a custom built configuration right > now. Very hard decision to make. > > For desktops and web/office servers, I still like the Dells. Just not > for the DB servers anymore. Way off topic, but Dell regularly advertises included hardware that is "almost" the same as the name brand hardware if purchased individually. My brother bought a Dell and needed to upgrade his video driver and the Dell tech said he has to use Dell's drivers rather than the manufacturers driver because the video card isn't identical to the manufacturers. Of course the manufacturer had an updated driver that fixed the problem while Dell had only the broken one. He upgraded the driver anyway and it worked. Do you want to purchase hardware from a vendor that tries to shave every dollar off the hardware cost, even if compatibility or performance suffers? I don't. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073