Thread: Changes to Contributor List
Folks, If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at: http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php ... and tell me what's out of date other than me & Vadim? i.e.: A) What contributors are missing from the list? B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't contributed any code since 7.1.0? C) Who needs their e-mail address updated? D) Who needs their description updated? (Text, please ... I won't write it) -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
> B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't
> contributed any code since 7.1.0?
I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
get listed that way, at least.
regards, tom lane
Tom, > I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be > deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors > Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim > get listed that way, at least. Yeah, I was thinking of moving them from "Major Contributors" to just "Contributors". We'd rather have a "Past Contributors"? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Tom Lane wrote: > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > > B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't > > contributed any code since 7.1.0? > > I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be > deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors > Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim > get listed that way, at least. Yes, I think we are going to use that Emeritus list only for special contributors who aren't involved any more. I think Brian ??? would be a good addition too. He was around during 1.X and 6.X. Marc? Remember? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Tom Lane wrote: > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > > B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't > > contributed any code since 7.1.0? > > I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be > deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors > Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim > get listed that way, at least. I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English speakers, and even for less educated English speakers. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on > developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at: > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php > > ... and tell me what's out of date other than me & Vadim? i.e.: > > A) What contributors are missing from the list? > B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't contributed > any code since 7.1.0? > C) Who needs their e-mail address updated? > D) Who needs their description updated? (Text, please ... I won't write it) > Jan Wieck in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, (JanWieck@Yahoo.com, <a href="http://www.afilias.info">Afilias USA INC.</a>) overhauled the query rewrite rule system, wrote our procedural languages PL/pgSQL and PL/Tcl and many other complex features like TOAST. Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
Guys, Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4 years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in January. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: > Guys, > > Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4 > years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in > January. Agreed. I think Jan is the only one who knows how to updated it. Jan? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>> Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4
>> years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in
>> January.
> Agreed.
Yeah. It was cute when we did it but it's overkill as a way of pointing
out that we have a worldwide development community. We can just say
that...
regards, tom lane
Tom, > Yeah. It was cute when we did it but it's overkill as a way of pointing > out that we have a worldwide development community. We can just say > that... I'll be happy to re-do it someday using OOo's imagemapper. But not this week ... -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > Oh, and how about we kill the Image Map of major developers? It's about 4 > years out of date, and makes developers.postgresql.org load like molasses in > January. Personally, I don't really see the need for developer.postgresql.org to be a separate sub-site. Since it is basically just a collection of links to other resources (CVSweb, TODO list, devel docs build, etc.), why not just make it a page or two on www.postgresql.org? -Neil
Josh Berkus writes: > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on > developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at: > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php One thing that really puzzles me is this web page: http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ This is sort of the same web page that we're talking about here, but it lists the developers below the press contacts as also-rans. What's worse, this is the web page that people will get to if they go to if they go to http://www.postgresql.org and click on the first link they see: "What is...". Don't get me wrong, press contacts and advocacy team deserve recognition as well, but not on a page that is indirectly labelled "What is PostgreSQL". It makes it look like the project is run by marketing dudes. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Neil Conway writes: > Personally, I don't really see the need for developer.postgresql.org > to be a separate sub-site. Since it is basically just a collection of > links to other resources (CVSweb, TODO list, devel docs build, etc.), > why not just make it a page or two on www.postgresql.org? I agree to that. The best way to get people involved is if we have an integrated presentation of the project. That is, users, developers, marketing, documentation, web mastering, translation, whatever. Right now, the developers sit in their own corner, and users think, "These people can't even be bothered to present relevant information in the main web site; they don't want me." The marketing people sit in another corner, and apparently their marketing strategy is "make the marketing site look as much unlike anything else in the project as possible". And, well, all the other people don't sit anywhere, because the main site understands itself as a portal, and there is no obvious way that other groups can integrate. Check out www.debian.org or www.freebsd.org to see what I mean. Everything is there at one glance, everything looks the same, everyone is invited everywhere. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Bruce Momjian wrote: >Tom Lane wrote: > > >>Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: >> >> >>>B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't >>>contributed any code since 7.1.0? >>> >>> >>I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be >>deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors >>Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim >>get listed that way, at least. >> >> > > >I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English >speakers, and even for less educated English speakers. > > Rupert Murdoch once sacked an editor (over the Hitler Diaries forgery fiasco) by giving him the title of "Editor Emeritus". The editor asked what it meant and Murdoch is reported to have replied "It's Latin, Frank. The 'e' means you're out and the 'meritus' means you deserve it." :-) cheers andrew
Peter, > http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ > > This is sort of the same web page that we're talking about here, but it > lists the developers below the press contacts as also-rans. What's worse, > this is the web page that people will get to if they go to if they go to > http://www.postgresql.org and click on the first link they see: "What > is...". ??? I thought we fixed that link. > Don't get me wrong, press contacts and advocacy team deserve > recognition as well, but not on a page that is indirectly labelled "What > is PostgreSQL". It makes it look like the project is run by marketing > dudes. Yeah, you're right,it's confusing .... we should have two seperate pages, one for "What is the PGDG" possibly linking to developer., and one page for "Contact Us". As it is, they two are munged together. The problem is getting it fixed before 7.4 .... there are 7 translations .... -- -Josh BerkusAglio Database SolutionsSan Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the Contributor List on > developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please take a gander at: > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php > > ... and tell me what's out of date other than me & Vadim? i.e.: > > A) What contributors are missing from the list? > B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't contributed > any code since 7.1.0? > C) Who needs their e-mail address updated? > D) Who needs their description updated? (Text, please ... I won't write it) Who is eligible to be a "contributor" ? Who wrote a single line of code that now is inside Postgres? Who discovered a "major" bug ? Who partecipate actively to all discussions ? Regards Gaetano Mendola
>>I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be >>deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors >>Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim >>get listed that way, at least. > > I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English > speakers, and even for less educated English speakers. Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :) Chris
>> I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English >> speakers, and even for less educated English speakers. > > > Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :) My personal opinion would be that they can use dictionary.com if they don't know what it means. > > Chris > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
> -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net] > Sent: 05 November 2003 23:11 > To: Josh Berkus > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List > > Josh Berkus writes: > > > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the > Contributor List on > > developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please > take a gander at: > > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php > > One thing that really puzzles me is this web page: > > http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site. Regards, Dave.
Josh Berkus writes: > Yeah, you're right,it's confusing .... we should have two seperate pages, one > for "What is the PGDG" possibly linking to developer., and one page for > "Contact Us". As it is, they two are munged together. Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a "recognised contributor"? -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Emeritus is verbatin from Latin and is really very spread into most Western languages. -- Paulo Scardine > > I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English > speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 03:21, Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net] > > Sent: 05 November 2003 23:11 > > To: Josh Berkus > > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List > > > > Josh Berkus writes: > > > > > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the > > Contributor List on > > > developer.postgresql.org updated. Can everyone please > > take a gander at: > > > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php > > > > One thing that really puzzles me is this web page: > > > > http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ > > Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site. > Because when it was originally created the guy doing the main website and the guy doing the advocacy website weren't big on nuzzling together. The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site, namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites could be brought together. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:25:38AM -0500, Robert Treat wrote: > The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site, > namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps > with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites > could be brought together. Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example. They have multilingual capabilities across the whole site. -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>) "Cómo ponemos nuestros dedos en la arcilla del otro. Eso es la amistad; jugar al alfarero y ver qué formas se pueden sacar del otro" (C. Halloway en La Feria de las Tinieblas, R. Bradbury)
Peter, > Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a > "recognised contributor"? Yeah, that's another "ToDo" item ... your company needs to go up there. Criteria are major code contributions and/or sponsoring a full-time developer. We've discussed it on -CORE some, but not come to a specific determination of the level required. However, between you & M & LinuxWorld etc. your company definitely qualifies. And if we're gonna continue this thread, we should move it to -Advocacy. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus writes: > And if we're gonna continue this thread, we should move it to -Advocacy. I'm a bit lost here. It was recently said very clearly, "The target audience of the advocacy site is PHB's, not technical people." And the content of the site supports that in my mind. Yet, the advocacy group keeps absorbing more and more tasks that are not strictly related to development, but are clearly not targeting PHB's exclusively either. There is a wide spectrum between the PostgreSQL guru on the one side and the PHB on the other side. (And the middle of the spectrum happens to be the largest part.) Those are the people I see coming to presentations, expositions, those are the people I am targeting when I'm making flyers, write books and magazine articles, prepare training classes. Those are the people who actually come to our web site in search of information. Those are the people who will like to read a nice press release that is not a bare change log but still free of marketing BS. But nobody's addressing those people. So please, declare your intentions and make them consistent with your actions. Until then, or in any case, the discussion list of the development group is the right place to discuss who gets to be a recognized contributor of that same development group. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Peter, > I'm a bit lost here. I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus writes: > I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which > is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? No. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Peter, > > I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which > > is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? > > No. Please explain. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus writes: > > > I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which > > > is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? > > > > No. > > Please explain. I don't see anything in this project that should be strictly a PHB thing, the exception maybe being the weird whitepaper someone is going to write sometime. Anything else is intended for a greatly diverse audience, who may be engineers or decision makers, who may be technically incompetent, technically open-minded, or technical experts, and who may or may not have varying degrees of clues about open source, databases, and PostgreSQL. In other words, the general public. If you disagree, then maybe we should split up into advocacy-for-phbs and advocacy-for-real-people groups. Moreover, you seem to imply that the list of companies should primarily be a marketing instrument of the PostgreSQL project for attracting new users. I don't understand that. I would understand it if the list contained a large number of "big names", but it does not, and it is not set up to strive for that goal. Right now, the list is nothing more than a marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to them. I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make their own recognition evaluation. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
> list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
> their own recognition evaluation.
That works if you think that the only form of corporate support is
sponsoring a developer. Seems to me that's a bit narrow-minded.
For instance, hub.org is contributing (by providing hosting services)
way more than you might think from the number of times it appears on
the developer list...
regards, tom lane
On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a
> list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make
> their own recognition evaluation.
I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using
Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange,
but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any
good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that
it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea
is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .)
A
--
----
Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street
Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M2P 2A8
+1 416 646 3304 x110
Hello, My feeling is that advocacy should be just that: Advocacy. It doesn't matter who the intended audience is in reality. However, it is also important to remember that technical experts typically don't need to be sold on PostgreSQL. PHBs on the other hand probably do and thus much of our Advocacy work should be geared towards them. I believe one place where we are particularly week is PostgreSQL versus MySQL. We should have mountains of dead tree printables on why you should use PostgreSQL and why you shouldn't use mySQL. This can be done in a non-flammatory way. Sincerely, Joshua Drake Peter Eisentraut wrote: >Josh Berkus writes: > > > >>>>I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" which >>>>is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? >>>> >>>> >>>No. >>> >>> >>Please explain. >> >> > >I don't see anything in this project that should be strictly a PHB thing, >the exception maybe being the weird whitepaper someone is going to write >sometime. Anything else is intended for a greatly diverse audience, who >may be engineers or decision makers, who may be technically incompetent, >technically open-minded, or technical experts, and who may or may not have >varying degrees of clues about open source, databases, and PostgreSQL. >In other words, the general public. If you disagree, then maybe we should >split up into advocacy-for-phbs and advocacy-for-real-people groups. > >Moreover, you seem to imply that the list of companies should primarily be >a marketing instrument of the PostgreSQL project for attracting new users. >I don't understand that. I would understand it if the list contained a >large number of "big names", but it does not, and it is not set up to >strive for that goal. Right now, the list is nothing more than a >marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to >them. > >I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a >list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make >their own recognition evaluation. > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Andrew Sullivan wrote: >On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > >>I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a >>list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make >>their own recognition evaluation. >> >> Your assuming that people are intelligent. In general they are not. In general people want to see that Cisco, Afilias, RedHat, ACS etc... use PostgreSQL. They want graphics, they want teddy bears. J > >I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using >Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange, >but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any >good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that >it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea >is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .) > >A > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Peter, > Right now, the list is nothing more than a > marketing tool for the listed companies for attracting existing users to > them. Yes? That's exactly the intention -- so that existing users and interested parties can see the companies that give major resources to the project. This has a dual purpose: it both provides free advertising for the companies as a tit-for-tat, and shows potential adopters that PostgreSQL is not 100% hobby developers coding in their free time. > I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a > list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make > their own recognition evaluation. You seem pretty opposed to the corporate list given that one of your co-workers just requested to be on it. To paraphrase one of my friends who works for an ad agency: "Peter, we're not advertising to YOU." That page is not there for you or for people like you. It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Andrew Sullivan writes: > I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using > Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of contributors, not of users. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Josh Berkus writes: > Yes? That's exactly the intention -- so that existing users and interested > parties can see the companies that give major resources to the project. Yes, but existing users and most interested parties don't fall into the PHB category, nor do most PHB's fall into the existing users or interested parties category, nor do most existing users fall into the group that one advocates to. Hence my original point: the list of supporting companies does not primarily belong in the advocacy realm. > You seem pretty opposed to the corporate list given that one of your > co-workers just requested to be on it. Well, if there must be a list, then why not be on it? :-) > It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering > PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support. Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Peter, > Hence my original point: the list of supporting companies > does not primarily belong in the advocacy realm. But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos & links. This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make *financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors" page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up. > > It is there for IT department managers, PHBs, people considering > > PostgreSQL, and people looking for high-end paid support. > > Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I can't tell over e-mail whether you're agreeing with me or being sarcastic. Clue? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 09:46, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:25:38AM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
>
> > The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site,
> > namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps
> > with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites
> > could be brought together.
>
> Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example. They have
> multilingual capabilities across the whole site.
>
<rant>
we don't need links, we need patches
</rant>
we do have this development in progress, theres just the matter of
getting time to make it happen.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Josh Berkus writes: > But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech > people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and > figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos > & links. Other people have pointed out that this is not really sufficient. So if there is to be a separate company list, then it should be next to the individuals list. > This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly > discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make > *financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors" > page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project > gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to > be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up. When we're ready. But we're not. But then again, this sort of list would mostly be of use to existing users, in the sense, "They support a project I like, so I like them." You could only really make use of that for attracting potential users if you could make a clear case the the amount of donations is sufficient to guarantee any kind of longevity of the project. I think that will be hard to do (because there is, in fact, absolutely no relation). But hopefully, by the time we've arrived there, this silly web site fragmentation will be over and this question will be moot. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Robert Treat writes: > <rant> > we don't need links, we need patches > </rant> Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us: How does one get involved? Where is the code? What is the plan? Where is the roadmap? Where can issues be discussed? Who is working on this? How can we help? -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
Peter, > Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us: This isn't helping. What Robert was pointing out is that we don't currently have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving the site anytime soon. Robert doesn't need "managerial direction." Or did you have ambitions to be a PHB? ;-p -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
> Peter,
>> Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:
> This isn't helping. What Robert was pointing out is that we don't
> currently have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving
> the site anytime soon.
Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved.
Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done?
regards, tom lane
On Thursday 06 November 2003 17:18, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Robert Treat writes: > > <rant> > > we don't need links, we need patches > > </rant> > > Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us: > > How does one get involved? post proposals to pgsql-www and start coding > Where is the code? http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php > What is the plan? if you have an itch, scratch it... > Where is the roadmap? right now andreas' is working on multi-lingual capabilities. i have half an implementation of variable site width i'd love to finish off, and we have some pages for things like the release notes that we need to add to the dynamic site building scripts. on the advocacy site, there is a file called TODO in the main directory that has some issues in it that need to be addressed in the current system. potentially we will also need to add translated press kits and release notes to the system. on techdocs there is a todo.php file which is probably completely bogus. theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to convert the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the guides section. others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at which time some of the data would be transitioned over. i happen to think there are several files on this site that should be moved to the main www site, i'd be happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it. really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new web VM. > Where can issues be discussed? pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Who is working on this? myself, dave page, devrim gunduz, andreas grabmller are the primary folks doing the work, though there are certainly others involved. [that guy marc seems to be involved somewhat ;-) ] > How can we help? never send an email saying "you guys should post such and such news item on the web site". instead submit the news item yourself and we can have it approved and on the site in much less time. :-) otherwise it works much like any other open source project, if there is something specific you want to work on, post a proposal or ask if anyone else is working on it on the -www list. let me also say on a personal note that if none of this looks interesting but there is something else that i am working on that you'd like to get involved in, drop me a line. that last thing i want to do is to continue to consolidate work around me, I'd much rather empower others to become regular contributors. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Well the current argument aside, I do find it discouraging that there is a considerable difference between the four sites, advocacy, gborg, dev, and the main site, not only in form but in substance. I am listed on the dev site as a major contributor, but not on the advocacy site. Where was the list compiled from on the advocacy site? Dave On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 19:47, Tom Lane wrote: > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > > Peter, > >> Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us: > > > This isn't helping. What Robert was pointing out is that we don't > > currently have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving > > the site anytime soon. > > Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved. > Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done? > > regards, tom lane > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > >
Josh Berkus wrote: > Peter, > > > Btw., what process is used to determine which organizations become a > > "recognised contributor"? > > Yeah, that's another "ToDo" item ... your company needs to go up there. > > Criteria are major code contributions and/or sponsoring a full-time developer. > We've discussed it on -CORE some, but not come to a specific determination of > the level required. However, between you & M & LinuxWorld etc. your > company definitely qualifies. I don't think the developers have to be full-time, like me and Tom. Any company that consistently contributes developer time for items other than "we need a feature" should be listed, I think. Peter, for example, isn't full-time PostgreSQL, but is contributing greatly, and Command Prompt has offered to contribute a developer toward Win32 --- I am seeing more and more of these folks coming around, and it is beefing up our development team. We can help these companies also by providing speaking and trade show opportunities. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
> >>I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be
> >>deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors
> >>Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim
> >>get listed that way, at least.
> >
> > I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English
> > speakers, and even for less educated English speakers.
>
> Isn't that an even better reason to use it? :)
That reminds me of this:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
0x0d2C
==========
May your signals all trap
May your references be bounded
All memory aligned
Floats to ints rounded
Remember ...
Non-zero is true
++ adds one
Arrays start with zero
and, NULL is for none
For octal, use zero
0x means hex
= will set
== means test
use -> for a pointer
a dot if its not
? : is confusing
use them a lot <----
a.out is your program
there's no U in foobar
and, char (*(*x())[])() is
a function returning a pointer
to an array of pointers to
functions returning char
-- Jon S. Stumpf
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Imagine this discussion with your boss:
You: I want to spend an hour a day at work on PostgreSQL
community work.
Boss: Hmm. (How do I justify this?)
You: Our company will be listed on the main PostgreSQL web
site.
Boss: Fine. (That gives me a legitimate business purpose.)
This is why listing companies/individuals is good for several reasons,
and this is one of them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus writes:
>
> > But it does! You pointed it out yourself .... for the hackers & OSS tech
> > people, they can just look at the descriptions of the major contributors and
> > figure things out for themselves. They don't need a list with company logos
> > & links.
>
> Other people have pointed out that this is not really sufficient. So if
> there is to be a separate company list, then it should be next to the
> individuals list.
>
> > This is important because we've (people on the Advocacy list) briefly
> > discussed expanding this page to cover companies which, in the future, make
> > *financial* contributions to PostgreSQL ... sort of a "corporate donors"
> > page. This works very well in standard nonprofit fundraising; the project
> > gets $, and the donors get publicity. Obviously, contributors would have to
> > be categorized, but that's an issue for when we're ready to set it up.
>
> When we're ready. But we're not.
>
> But then again, this sort of list would mostly be of use to existing
> users, in the sense, "They support a project I like, so I like them."
> You could only really make use of that for attracting potential users if
> you could make a clear case the the amount of donations is sufficient to
> guarantee any kind of longevity of the project. I think that will be hard
> to do (because there is, in fact, absolutely no relation). But hopefully,
> by the time we've arrived there, this silly web site fragmentation will be
> over and this question will be moot.
>
> --
> Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:08:57PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > > I think that list is a pretty dumb idea in the first place. We have a > > list of developers with company names next to them. Let readers make > > their own recognition evaluation. > > I'm not sure that's all it's for. Every time we talk about using > Postgres, people want to know who else uses it. It's really strange, > but for some reason, people seem to believe that a product isn't any > good unless a large number of people are already using it, and that > it _is_ good if a large number of people do use it. (I guess the idea > is that all those Windows users can't be wrong. Oh, wait. . .) You have heard the term "first adopters". These people want to be second adopters. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:57:12PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of
> contributors, not of users.
I tend to agree with that. Maybe the trick is to talk about
"featured users" or something? I dunno, I keep trying to keep the
points off my hair.
A
--
----
Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street
Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M2P 2A8
+1 416 646 3304 x110
Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 09:57:12PM +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > > True, but for that you're looking at the wrong list. This is the list of > > contributors, not of users. > > I tend to agree with that. Maybe the trick is to talk about > "featured users" or something? I dunno, I keep trying to keep the > points off my hair. Maybe a "developer of the month" feature. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:24:04AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Maybe a "developer of the month" feature. :-) It would be quite cool if, say, General Bits could ocassionaly carry an interview with a Postgres developer. (Now that would be a mess to translate) -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>) "Linux transformó mi computadora, de una `máquina para hacer cosas', en un aparato realmente entretenido, sobre el cual cada día aprendo algo nuevo" (Jaime Salinas)
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 09:12:50AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > You: I want to spend an hour a day at work on PostgreSQL > community work. > Boss: Hmm. (How do I justify this?) > You: Our company will be listed on the main PostgreSQL web > site. > Boss: Fine. (That gives me a legitimate business purpose.) That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org? Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org? I really think they should be unified. Any developer here really thinks that developer things _have_ to be apart? -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>) "No hay hombre que no aspire a la plenitud, es decir, la suma de experiencias de que un hombre es capaz"
Alvaro, > That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you > talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org? > Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org? I think everyone agrees with the idea of unifying www, advocacy, and developer. Techdocs and Gborg will stay seperate becuase they're based on different technology. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:17:12AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > Alvaro, > > > That'd be cool for me, but what 'main PostgreSQL web site' are you > > talking about? Is this www.postgresql.org? Or advocacy.postgresql.org? > > Or maybe it'd be developer.postgresql.org? > > I think everyone agrees with the idea of unifying www, advocacy, and > developer. Techdocs and Gborg will stay seperate becuase they're based on > different technology. Cool. I thought I had understand otherwise on a mail from Robert Treat. Sorry for the confusion. -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>) "La rebeldía es la virtud original del hombre" (Arthur Schopenhauer)
Robert, > on techdocs there is a todo.php file which is probably completely bogus. > theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to > convert the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the > guides section. others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at > which time some of the data would be transitioned over. Yeah, that's me & Elein & David F. We feel pretty strongly that PostgreSQL needs a place where users can contribute to documentation and help other users without learning HTML, SGML, or CVS. Otherwise, we're throwing away a lot of potential contributions and ignoring a lot of the community that wants to help but find the barrier to entry too high. I also see Techdocs as a "test site" for maybe moving more parts of postgresql.org to a sophisticated CMS; while CVS is nice for version control, it does nothing to help control style consistency, dynamic linking, or multi-lingualism, which must all still be done 100% manually. However, we've been real sluggards about getting this up & running. So if you get the other stuff re-built and we're still lagging, then you'll have come up with a very persuasive argument to do things your way. > i happen to think > there are several files on this site that should be moved to the main www > site, i'd be happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it. Probably, yes. > really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the > site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new > web VM. On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated? -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Tom, > Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved. > Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done? Ooops! Sorry, Peter, I *completely* mis-read your e-mail. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
I think it is part of the incentive for corporations to contribute - not just an impressive list for PHB. It's nice to get the recognition for their time/money contributions and a good way for the PGDG to show their appreciation. -r On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 14:34, Josh Berkus wrote: > Peter, > > > > I was discussing specifically the "Recognized Corporate Contributors" > which > > > is, AFAIK, strictly a PHB thing, no? > > > > No. > > Please explain. -- Ryan Mahoney <ryan@paymentalliance.net>
emeritus is a perfectly good latin word. No need to dumb things down. --elein On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 05:26:29PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Tom Lane wrote: > > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: > > > B) What contributors are listed under Major Developers who haven't > > > contributed any code since 7.1.0? > > > > I think we had agreed that formerly-listed contributors would not be > > deleted, but would be moved to a new section titled "Contributors > > Emeritus" or some such. Please make sure that Tom Lockhart and Vadim > > get listed that way, at least. > > > I think the "Emeritus" word might be too hard for non-native English > speakers, and even for less educated English speakers. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road > + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:51, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the
> > site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new
> > web VM.
>
> On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated?
>
Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the
other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but
until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote: > On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:51, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the > > > site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new > > > web VM. > > > > On techdocs? What part of that needs to be migrated? > > > > Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the > other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but > until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't And there is no pressure/hurry for this to be done ... its not a 'simple move', but a redesign based on new technology ... what is there now, works, so no pressure
Justin, > From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs > virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just > don't remember. Really? I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines. Will check with Cristian. If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them, dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > Justin, > > > From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs > > virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just > > don't remember. > > Really? I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines. Will > check with Cristian. > > If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them, > dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week. start of current access_log: 217.1.97.253 - - [08/Nov/2003:08:00:28 -0500] end of current access_log: 141.211.97.33 - - [10/Nov/2003:13:28:39 -0500] jobs# grep http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/user/index.php access_log | egrep -v "images" | wc -l 2966 looks like its still well used ...
In fact: http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/stats On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > Justin, > > > > > From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs > > > virtual machine too. That may or may not be the case these days, I just > > > don't remember. > > > > Really? I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines. Will > > check with Cristian. > > > > If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them, > > dammit. Those get 21,000 views a week. > > start of current access_log: 217.1.97.253 - - [08/Nov/2003:08:00:28 -0500] > end of current access_log: 141.211.97.33 - - [10/Nov/2003:13:28:39 -0500] > > jobs# grep http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/user/index.php access_log | egrep -v "images" | wc -l > 2966 > > looks like its still well used ... > >