Thread: [pgsql-advocacy] How to convince people to choose PostgreSQL over MySQL?

Mellow Greetings all,

I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
PostgreSQL.

At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.

Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.

To be prepared I tried to collect and refine as much hard evidence as
possible, during the last couple of months, e.g,
https://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgJtr9tIME (some points are not valid
anymore),
http://insights.dice.com/2015/03/19/why-i-choose-postgresql-over-mysqlmariadb/,
http://modern-sql.com/slides,
PostgreSQL is community-driven (huge plus!),
Oracle treats MySQL like a stepchild (understandably they don't want
competitors for "Oracle DB"), etc.

To me all these political and technical advantages of PostgreSQl over
MySQL are more than enough. But the results don't feel "resilient"
enough. It is also cumbersome to keep track of how far ahead PostgreSQL
is in comparison of features and standards compliance and providing
undeniable practical examples.

Finally:
How do I convince people to choose PostgreSQL over a MySQL?
Alternatively:
How do I cope with people, which refuse the available (too few?) facts?

Thank you so much for this little gem called PostgreSQL. Keep up the
great work.


Be well,

Tobias

In a nutshell, what I usually say to people in advocating Postgres over MySQL is:

1. Postgres is a product from people that care a lot more about quality, making
releases that work and don't lose your data, and take care to keep changes
minimal and compatible in patch releases, unlike MySQL (all versions) which is
notorious for the opposite, see version 5.1 for example.

2. Postgres has an order of magnitude more useful features that MySQL lacks
(this being a major pain point for getting real work done), and they add lots of
useful new features each year; MySQL in contrast does very little in the way of
adding new features (version 5.1 was the last for-production version with
substantial new features), is very far behind, has a lot of mis-features.

I've given a lot more detail in the past, but that's a lot of it.  The politics
of Oracle are another reason, but the above was all true even before Oracle
owned MySQL.

-- Darren Duncan

On 2017-06-09 11:58 AM, Tobias May wrote:
> Mellow Greetings all,
>
> I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
> company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
> PostgreSQL.
>
> At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
> PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
> is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
> been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
> colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.
>
> Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
> seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
> I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.
>
> To be prepared I tried to collect and refine as much hard evidence as
> possible, during the last couple of months, e.g,
> https://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgJtr9tIME (some points are not valid
> anymore),
> http://insights.dice.com/2015/03/19/why-i-choose-postgresql-over-mysqlmariadb/,
> http://modern-sql.com/slides,
> PostgreSQL is community-driven (huge plus!),
> Oracle treats MySQL like a stepchild (understandably they don't want
> competitors for "Oracle DB"), etc.
>
> To me all these political and technical advantages of PostgreSQl over
> MySQL are more than enough. But the results don't feel "resilient"
> enough. It is also cumbersome to keep track of how far ahead PostgreSQL
> is in comparison of features and standards compliance and providing
> undeniable practical examples.
>
> Finally:
> How do I convince people to choose PostgreSQL over a MySQL?
> Alternatively:
> How do I cope with people, which refuse the available (too few?) facts?
>
> Thank you so much for this little gem called PostgreSQL. Keep up the
> great work.
>
>
> Be well,
>
> Tobias
>

Greetings, Tobias!

* Tobias May (tobias.m@inventati.org) wrote:
> How do I convince people to choose PostgreSQL over a MySQL?

I have to admit, it's often tricky to do so, but it tends to be
worthwhile too.  One popular theme (which is so because it tends to be a
pretty good idea...) is to "move the code to the data" and no RDBMS (or
database in general, really..) makes that more possible to do than
PostgreSQL.  With PostgreSQL, you can ship to the database server code
in a huge variety of languages and have it run locally on the server, as
close to the data as you can get.

Another consideration is the amazing capabilities PostgreSQL has when it
comes to federating data.  Specifically, there's a ton of different
foreign data wrappers available which allow you to connect to other
servers, when necessary or smart to do so.  An argument one could use is
that if "X" is really done "way better" in MySQL, then you would be able
to create a MySQL database and just link to it from the PostgreSQL
system.  There are complications there, of course, but it's definitely a
real level of flexibility which isn't seen in other database systems.

> How do I cope with people, which refuse the available (too few?) facts?

Understanding their concerns and their objections can often go a long
way.  Have that dialogue with people and be open and honest- if you need
to go research some specific angle, say so, and then feel free to reach
out to this group with any questions you or they have.

Thanks!

Stephen

On 06/09/2017 11:58 AM, Tobias May wrote:
> Mellow Greetings all,
>
> I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
> company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
> PostgreSQL.
>
> At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
> PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
> is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
> been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
> colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.
>
> Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
> seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
> I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.

In general people resist change especially when they out-number you. It
usually does not come to better or worse but what I know versus the
unknown. If you do not have the power to force the change then you are
left with leading by example. Create test cases that demonstrate the
features of Postgres and how it makes you more productive. Ask what it
is that the developers like about MySQL and show the analogue in
Postgres. Ask what they don't like about Postgres and see if the
argument is valid or can be refuted.

>
> To me all these political and technical advantages of PostgreSQl over
> MySQL are more than enough. But the results don't feel "resilient"
> enough. It is also cumbersome to keep track of how far ahead PostgreSQL
> is in comparison of features and standards compliance and providing
> undeniable practical examples.
>
> Finally:
> How do I convince people to choose PostgreSQL over a MySQL?
> Alternatively:
> How do I cope with people, which refuse the available (too few?) facts?

Ask them to join the pgsql-general list and see the community at work.

Point them at:

https://www.postgresql.org/about/events/

>
> Thank you so much for this little gem called PostgreSQL. Keep up the
> great work.
>
>
> Be well,
>
> Tobias
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 06/09/2017 11:58 AM, Tobias May wrote:
> Mellow Greetings all,
>
> I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
> company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
> PostgreSQL.
>
> At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
> PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
> is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
> been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
> colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.
>
> Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
> seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
> I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.

I suggest you try a different tack: ask the developers what they
*specifically* don't like about PostgreSQL.  It's quite possible that
their issues are things you could easily help with -- like installing
PostgreSQL on their laptops, or permissions.  If you remove their main
reasons to gripe, then things will be a lot easier.

--
Josh Berkus
Containers & Databases Oh My!

On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
> On 06/09/2017 11:58 AM, Tobias May wrote:
>> Mellow Greetings all,
>>
>> I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
>> company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
>> PostgreSQL.
>>
>> At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
>> PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
>> is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
>> been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
>> colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.
>>
>> Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
>> seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
>> I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.
>
> I suggest you try a different tack: ask the developers what they
> *specifically* don't like about PostgreSQL.  It's quite possible that
> their issues are things you could easily help with -- like installing
> PostgreSQL on their laptops, or permissions.  If you remove their main
> reasons to gripe, then things will be a lot easier.
>

Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
beta at best.


-- Stephen

On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:

>
> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
> beta at best.

Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?

JD

>
>
> -- Stephen
>
>


--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                         +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

On 2017-06-14 3:05 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>
>> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
>> beta at best.
>
> Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?

I interpret this with evidence as Stephen taking a swipe at pgAdmin versions 3
and 4 respectively. -- Darren Duncan

On 06/14/2017 03:05 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
>> beta at best.
>
> Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?

I would say he is referring to pgAdmin.

>
> JD
>



--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

As selling point  it's often easy to just try to switch from MySQL to
PostgreSQL using Pg_chameleon  so one can play around PostgreSQL
capabilities using his own datum! Tool page:
http://www.pgdba.co.uk/p/mysql-to-postgresql-replica.html + author
presentation  in our local user group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQQHFqmeSfk

As for "GUI" i could imagine some smooth sailing with some tool that
could speak both MySQL and PostgreSQL, so one can use it irrelevant of
when one changes underlying db. Datagrip by jetbrains  maybe?

Best,
Ervin

On 15 June 2017 at 01:53, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 03:05 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
>>> beta at best.
>>
>>
>> Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?
>
>
> I would say he is referring to pgAdmin.
>
>>
>> JD
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Adrian Klaver
> adrian.klaver@aklaver.com
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-advocacy mailing list (pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-advocacy

On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:

>> I suggest you try a different tack: ask the developers what they
>> *specifically* don't like about PostgreSQL.  It's quite possible that
>> their issues are things you could easily help with -- like installing
>> PostgreSQL on their laptops, or permissions.  If you remove their main
>> reasons to gripe, then things will be a lot easier.
>>
>
> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
> beta at best.

Do developers use GUIs for databases these days?  I thought they did
everything through ORMs.  See, that's the kind of thing one needs to ask
them.

--
Josh Berkus
Containers & Databases Oh My!

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017, Josh Berkus wrote:

> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>
> >> I suggest you try a different tack: ask the developers what they
> >> *specifically* don't like about PostgreSQL.  It's quite possible that
> >> their issues are things you could easily help with -- like installing
> >> PostgreSQL on their laptops, or permissions.  If you remove their main
> >> reasons to gripe, then things will be a lot easier.
> >>
>
> Do developers use GUIs for databases these days?  I thought they did
> everything through ORMs.  See, that's the kind of thing one needs to ask
> them.

I know ops people who prefer web GUIs to manage their data. There is no
app do it for them, and they are mostly UNIX shell programmers.

Marcin Cieślak

On 06/14/2017 03:53 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 03:05 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>>> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
>>> beta at best.
>>
>> Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?
>
> I would say he is referring to pgAdmin.

I would never consider pgAdmin to be only one of two available GUIs.
PgAdmin is fine for those who *must have Open Source* but there is also
PostgreSQL Studio: http://www.postgresqlstudio.org/

There are also some of them that are exceedingly mature such as Navicat
and EMS SQL Manager for PostgreSQL.

JD




>
>>
>> JD
>>
>
>
>


--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                         +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

On 2017-06-15 11:59 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Do developers use GUIs for databases these days?  I thought they did
> everything through ORMs.  See, that's the kind of thing one needs to ask
> them.

That's apples and oranges.  ORMs are for making custom applications to talk with
a DBMS.  A GUI is for a human to talk directly to a DBMS, such as for debugging
what their application actually changed or saw, or doing administration etc.
Having a good GUI is important. -- Darren Duncan

On 2017-06-15 12:37 PM, Jonathan Bartlett wrote:
> There were a few reasons that MySQL took off when it did:
>
> 1) PostgreSQL was really, really slow at the time (PG < 7)
> 2) MySQL for simple select statements was (and is) really really fast
> 3) Wordpress used MySQL
>
> MySQL is great for simple stuff.  If you are doing only simple selects, and the
> thing you care most in the world about is simple scanning speed, MySQL may in
> fact be right for you.
>
> But anytime you need your database to be more powerful, it is almost always
> dwarfed by PostgreSQL.  PG has long left its slow days behind it.  Even more
> importantly, complex queries are MUCH better to handle in PG.  The query
> optimizer in PG is actually pretty amazing.  I don't think MySQL even has
> anything close.  PG allows full-text querying, searching, etc. in a native
> fashion.  It has a ton of great extensions. It fully supports full programming
> languages when building functions.
>
> Anyway, if you are only doing simple selects, then perhaps MySQL is all right.
> If you are doing anything else, use PG.

My thought is, even if you are only doing simple selects, Postgres is still
better than MySQL at not losing your data and many other quality control matters
that go beyond simply features.

In my mind, the only reason to use MySQL is temporarily for legacy reasons, or
if its the only supported DBMS for an application you really need, especially if
the risk of losing data is more acceptable, eg a message board and not something
financial.

-- Darren Duncan

On 06/15/2017 12:15 PM, Darren Duncan wrote:
> On 2017-06-15 11:59 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> Do developers use GUIs for databases these days?  I thought they did
>> everything through ORMs.  See, that's the kind of thing one needs to ask
>> them.
>
> That's apples and oranges.  ORMs are for making custom applications to
> talk with a DBMS.  A GUI is for a human to talk directly to a DBMS, such
> as for debugging what their application actually changed or saw, or
> doing administration etc. Having a good GUI is important. -- Darren Duncan

Why do people always thing apples and oranges can't be compared?
They're both fruit, they're both round, they both have vitamin C.

Anyway ... I'm really suggesting that we shouldn't *assume* that GUIs
are important to application developers without *asking*.  I work a bit
with the Django community, and my experience has been that those devs
pretty much use the Django ORM and/or python code to interact with the
database.

BTW, pgAdmin4 is pretty awesome now, except that its packaging is
terrible.  So it's nice-looking and useful, but you can't install it.
That seems solvable if someone has the time.

--
Josh Berkus
Containers & Databases Oh My!

On 2017-06-15 2:03 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> On 06/15/2017 12:15 PM, Darren Duncan wrote:
>> On 2017-06-15 11:59 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>> Do developers use GUIs for databases these days?  I thought they did
>>> everything through ORMs.  See, that's the kind of thing one needs to ask
>>> them.
>>
>> That's apples and oranges.  ORMs are for making custom applications to
>> talk with a DBMS.  A GUI is for a human to talk directly to a DBMS, such
>> as for debugging what their application actually changed or saw, or
>> doing administration etc. Having a good GUI is important. -- Darren Duncan
>
> Why do people always thing apples and oranges can't be compared?
> They're both fruit, they're both round, they both have vitamin C.

The reason I said "apples and oranges" is because your comment made it look like
you were saying ORMs and GUIs were interchangeable, like if one doesn't have a
GUI then an ORM can be used instead, whereas a more reasonable comparison is
that a command shell like psql is an alternative to a GUI, because both are for
direct user interaction with the database without having to write code first. --
Darren Duncan

On 2017-06-15 15:14, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 03:53 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:
>> On 06/14/2017 03:05 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> On 06/14/2017 02:58 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>>>> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
>>>> beta at best.
>>>
>>> Are you talking about PostgreSQL GUIs or MySQL?
>>
>> I would say he is referring to pgAdmin.
>
> I would never consider pgAdmin to be only one of two available GUIs.
> PgAdmin is fine for those who *must have Open Source* but there is also
> PostgreSQL Studio: http://www.postgresqlstudio.org/
>
> There are also some of them that are exceedingly mature such as Navicat
> and EMS SQL Manager for PostgreSQL.
>
> JD

I meant pgAdmin, as an analog to "MySQL Workbench", a GUI that "comes
with it" or is at least semi-official. Theirs works; PostgreSQL's is
abandoned and replaced with a beta web-app.

I'm not just being grumpy here. I have convinced clients to switch from
MySQL to PostgreSQL, and since this happened I have to explain every
time there is a new hire that they can download the broken-unsupported
version or the broken-by-design version, or find something else on the
internet at their leisure. When the next client is getting the
"PostgreSQL is better" speech, am I supposed to praise the benefits of
just using the command line? It makes the whole ecosystem look bad, from
the "people who wear suits and pay for everything" perspective. As an
advocate (to my clients at least) it makes me look bad.


-- Stephen

On 06/15/2017 05:28 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:

> I'm not just being grumpy here. I have convinced clients to switch from
> MySQL to PostgreSQL, and since this happened I have to explain every
> time there is a new hire that they can download the broken-unsupported
> version or the broken-by-design version, or find something else on the
> internet at their leisure. When the next client is getting the
> "PostgreSQL is better" speech, am I supposed to praise the benefits of
> just using the command line? It makes the whole ecosystem look bad, from
> the "people who wear suits and pay for everything" perspective. As an
> advocate (to my clients at least) it makes me look bad.
>

You aren't wrong. At CMD we run into it all the time. We run into it all
the time and although I have nothing to say bad about PgAdmin4 (because
I literally have never used it except install and launch), I have
received fairly negative feedback about it.

What I find is this:

1. If they are a Linux desktop house, they are usually just fine using
psql or even PgAdmin3. There is even an LTS version[1] from OpenSCG that
makes sure that it works with newer versions of PostgreSQL.

2. If they are a Mac or Windows house, I point them to commercial
solutions because frankly, they are better than anything the community
has ever released (or likely will ever).

Remember, we are BSD based, commercial software is just fine. We should
be about the spread of the PostgreSQL pollen and not tie ourselves to
any particular solution (Open Source or not).

* https://www.navicat.com/en/products/navicat-for-postgresql
* https://www.sqlmanager.net/en/products/postgresql/manager
* https://www.microolap.com/products/database/postgresql-designer/

I have also heard very good things about this:

* https://github.com/pgmodeler/pgmodeler

Sincerely,

JD

1. https://bitbucket.org/openscg/pgadmin3-lts

--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                         +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

On 06/16/2017 08:56 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 06/15/2017 05:28 PM, Stephen Cook wrote:
>

>
> Remember, we are BSD based, commercial software is just fine. We should
> be about the spread of the PostgreSQL pollen and not tie ourselves to
> any particular solution (Open Source or not).

Huh, when did that change?:

https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/571FB941.3020007%40commandprompt.com

"Notable upcoming community releases


* PgAdminIV is in preview mode (insert link)


* PgLogical is available for testing (insert link)


* Apache MADlib: an open source analytics library for PostgreSQL (insert
link)
"

https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/57201FF4.7060900%40commandprompt.com

"PgAdmin is *the default* GUI admin tool and version 4 is a major
milestone, why wouldn't we mention it?"

https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/572025EB.6090805%40commandprompt.com

"... Do you think we should advocate a
"toolset" or some such thing? I love the idea of a .Org extended toolset."



https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/5720CE7A.60808%40commandprompt.com

"Thank you Adrian.

I don't agree with your reasons. I think they are limited in vision and
scope of what is possible if we build strong and active relationships
with related communities."




--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Hi all,

after one week I thank you all for your supportive responses.

I'm not happy with the current GUI situation, either.
But it was not my intention to provoke a negative mood. :-/
I really appreciate the current efforts, in particular pgAdmin4.
Let's say that it's getting better.

PS: Bad english disclaimer: It's not my native tongue. ;-)

Regards,
Tobias

Am 14.06.2017 um 23:58 schrieb Stephen Cook:
> On 2017-06-14 15:30, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> On 06/09/2017 11:58 AM, Tobias May wrote:
>>> Mellow Greetings all,
>>>
>>> I'm a junior DBA and PostgreSQL-enthusiast. Last year I switched to a
>>> company where they promised to me the opportunity to dive deeper into
>>> PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> At that time there was a lead developer, who was a
>>> PostgreSQL-enthusiast, too. And there was an agreement that PostgreSQL
>>> is the primary database backend for our product. Unfortunately she has
>>> been frozen out by non-technical decision makers. Now there is only one
>>> colleague and me (without authority to decide) left to advocate PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> Most of the developers in the company are used to MySQL. Although they
>>> seem to accept PostgreSQL some still subtly question the decision and
>>> I'm feeling, that I have to constantly defend the decision for PostgreSQL.
>>
>> I suggest you try a different tack: ask the developers what they
>> *specifically* don't like about PostgreSQL.  It's quite possible that
>> their issues are things you could easily help with -- like installing
>> PostgreSQL on their laptops, or permissions.  If you remove their main
>> reasons to gripe, then things will be a lot easier.
>>
>
> Don't mention that the two available GUIs are either discontinued or
> beta at best.
>
>
> -- Stephen
>

On 06/17/2017 11:24 PM, Tobias May wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> after one week I thank you all for your supportive responses.
>
> I'm not happy with the current GUI situation, either.
> But it was not my intention to provoke a negative mood. :-/

It is not really a negative mood as much as it is an unresolved
situation. The situation being:

1) There is the core Postgres code. It is developed and maintained by
developers under the oversight of the core team:

https://www.postgresql.org/developer/core/

2) There is the greater Postgres community that builds and maintains an
array of projects. These projects are for the most part overseen
independently.

3) Some portion of the community projects gather a sufficiently large
following that they are seen as part of Postgres. In particular they are
seen as sort of an 'extended' core.

4) The core team and developers do not have the time, resources or
inclination to oversee this 'extended' core.

5) The dilemma then becomes how do these external projects fit into
Postgres from a management and responsibility stand point. This has not
been resolved from what I see, so you have a variety of viewpoints as to
what the situation is and how it should be dealt with.

> I really appreciate the current efforts, in particular pgAdmin4.
> Let's say that it's getting better.
>
> PS: Bad english disclaimer: It's not my native tongue. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Tobias
>



--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com