Thread: The big MySQL spin
Folks, No doubt some of you have seen this by now: http://enterprise-linux-it.newsfactor.com/ story.xhtml?story_title=JBoss_and_MySQL_Join_Forces&story_id=23041 What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how autocratic they are, and make it seem like a good thing. With any other publication, I would try to contact them with a reaction to this article. However, NewsFactor does not take feedback; one can't contact the reporters and the editor@newsfactor.com mail address goes straight to / dev/null/ Thoughts? Should we just ignore it? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how autocratic they > are, and make it seem like a good thing. OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." Chris
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how autocratic they > > are, and make it seem like a good thing. > > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the U.S. > It's more efficient over the long haul." They are trying to respond to our strengths. It hasn't helped them in the past, and it will not this time either. The idea that we are a democracy comes right out of my "Adoption and Trends" talk which is on my web site and was presented in Paris recently. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes: > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." I personally think Mr. Garry is wrong on both counts (PostgreSQL is *not* a democracy, and neither is MySQL), but I'm not sure what it has to do with us. An analyst has an opinion on a subjective matter, and it happened to be reported in a news story. Big deal. -Neil
Neil Conway wrote: > Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes: > > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the > > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." > > I personally think Mr. Garry is wrong on both counts (PostgreSQL is > *not* a democracy, and neither is MySQL), but I'm not sure what it has > to do with us. An analyst has an opinion on a subjective matter, and > it happened to be reported in a news story. Big deal. I sort of thought we were a democracy, no? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Neil Conway wrote: > > Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes: > > > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > > > > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > > > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > > > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the > > > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." > > > > I personally think Mr. Garry is wrong on both counts (PostgreSQL is > > *not* a democracy, and neither is MySQL), but I'm not sure what it has > > to do with us. An analyst has an opinion on a subjective matter, and > > it happened to be reported in a news story. Big deal. > > I sort of thought we were a democracy, no? Benevelant autocracy(sp?) ... core isn't voted ... just cause we defer to -hackers 99.9% of the time doesn't make us a democracy ... in the end, core acts akin to MySQL AB, other then we're probably alot more quiet :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
In the last exciting episode, chriskl@familyhealth.com.au (Christopher Kings-Lynne) wrote:
>> What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how
>> autocratic they are, and make it seem like a good thing.
>
> OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit:
>
> "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight
> democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are
> more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the
> U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul."
It's just complete nonsense; some sort of claimed "spin" presumably
for the purpose of having _some_ sort of response to Bruce's comments
about 'community.'
If anything, PostgreSQL is the _only_ one of the lot having something
akin to "representative democracy." If I want to get a feature in, I
need to go and find a "representative" in Core to champion that
feature. Seems pretty "representative" to me.
In contrast, the claim that Berkeley DB is some sort of 'straight
democracy' is also just ludicrous. The direction of Berkeley DB is
controlled by the staff of the private company, Sleepycat Software,
which presumably makes it identically "autocratic" to all the others.
That's not a bash, by any means; I have exchanged emails with Keith
Bostic in the past, and all has been well and congenial.
I just can't fathom how the author could have competently concluded
that that company's product represents some sort of "straight
democracy;" it leaves me a little speechless...
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "cbbrowne.com")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers.
Chris, > I just can't fathom how the author could have competently concluded > that that company's product represents some sort of "straight > democracy;" it leaves me a little speechless... Could have something to do with the fact that Newsfactor is all stringers (freelancers) with no editorial oversight, and is one of the most notoriously stingy news sites on the internet? Nah. Of course not. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Wednesday 10 March 2004 11:18 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I sort of thought we were a democracy, no? > Benevelant autocracy(sp?) ... core isn't voted ... just cause we defer to > -hackers 99.9% of the time doesn't make us a democracy ... in the end, > core acts akin to MySQL AB, other then we're probably alot more quiet :) Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. -- Lamar Owen Director of Information Technology Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute 1 PARI Drive Rosman, NC 28772 (828)862-5554 www.pari.edu
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > Neil Conway wrote: > > > Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes: > > > > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > > > > > > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > > > > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > > > > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the > > > > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." > > > > > > I personally think Mr. Garry is wrong on both counts (PostgreSQL is > > > *not* a democracy, and neither is MySQL), but I'm not sure what it has > > > to do with us. An analyst has an opinion on a subjective matter, and > > > it happened to be reported in a news story. Big deal. > > > > I sort of thought we were a democracy, no? > > Benevelant autocracy(sp?) ... core isn't voted ... just cause we defer to > -hackers 99.9% of the time doesn't make us a democracy ... in the end, > core acts akin to MySQL AB, other then we're probably alot more quiet :) Yea, you are right. We just try to make it look like a democracy, and a damn good job at it. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. Oligarchic technocracy? Hey, at least it'll get 'em running for a dictionary :-P Claudio --- Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics. For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see <a href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html">http://www.memetrics.com/em ailpolicy.html</a>
Claudio Natoli wrote: >> Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. > > Oligarchic technocracy? Oligarchic Meritocracy ? Peter
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Lamar Owen wrote: > On Wednesday 10 March 2004 11:18 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > I sort of thought we were a democracy, no? > > > Benevelant autocracy(sp?) ... core isn't voted ... just cause we defer to > > -hackers 99.9% of the time doesn't make us a democracy ... in the end, > > core acts akin to MySQL AB, other then we're probably alot more quiet :) > > Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. Other then laughing at policitians in the news, politics isn't my strong suit :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Yea, you are right. We just try to make it look like a democracy, and a > damn good job at it. :-) Apparently too good :) Actually, if you think the MySQL/JBoss guys got the democracy thing out of your papers, you *might* want to re-word them to put forth the 'benevalent oligarchy' perceptions vs democracy ... to be honest, I think the major mistake that the article had in it *was* that it label'd OSS as generally democratic ... in most cases, it isn't ... FreeBSD has a 'core', Linux has Linus ... there is always a "controlling power" at the top of the food chain ... whether or not they impose their will often (or ever) is another story, but its still there ... Myself, I tend to think of OSS more in terms of "the Corporation" ... the core is the board of directors who *generally* stay out of the day-to-day operations, but tends to oversee much of it in case something got awry ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2004-03-11 at 08:15, Peter Galbavy wrote:
> Claudio Natoli wrote:
> >> Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want.
> >
> > Oligarchic technocracy?
>
> Oligarchic Meritocracy ?
>
Certainly you've hit an important point in the discussion bringing up
meritocracy. With PostgreSQL, people's ability to shape the
direction/features of PostgreSQL is based on the merits of their work
and/or ideas, and the ascent to positions of control follow the same
path. With something like my$ql, ascent to a position of power is not
given from the community, but must be obtained from the corporation.
my$ql may say they are a republic / representative democracy, but given
that one party controls who all the candidates are there isn't much need
for voting...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Hmmmm .... Anarchistic/Democratic Ogliarchic Meritocracy, really. Boy, ain't that fun to say! The Core may be an "ogilarchy", but most things are decided individually or collectively by Hackers and the sub-project leads, whose influence is almost directly based on seniority and contributions to the project. Also, we seldom take votes with actual counts; our "voting" process tends to be more reminicent of anarchist labor organizations and political groups, where we attempt to build a consensus out of all participants or "all minus one". Also, Core is aware that we can't do anything that we can't persuade the majority of contributors is a good idea, lest we lose people from the project. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Folks, > > No doubt some of you have seen this by now: > > http://enterprise-linux-it.newsfactor.com/ > story.xhtml?story_title=JBoss_and_MySQL_Join_Forces&story_id=23041 > > What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how autocratic they > are, and make it seem like a good thing. > > With any other publication, I would try to contact them with a reaction to > this article. However, NewsFactor does not take feedback; one can't contact > the reporters and the editor@newsfactor.com mail address goes straight to / > dev/null/ > > Thoughts? Should we just ignore it? The sad thing is that I met a couple of the JBoss folks at OSConn a year and a half ago, and they are consumate computer scientists. They "get it". The FirebirdSQL folks, they "get it". The sleepy cat guy, "got it". They all write quality software and strive for correct, bug free operation of their software. So I'm guessing it wasn't the chief hackers at JBoss that picked MySQL for a playtime partner. I'm guessing it was a newly hired suit that came with their recent capitalization. FirebirdSQL or Postgresql would both be a much better choice for databases to put underneath a J2EE server, and I'm willing to bet money that the coders at JBoss know it. JBoss is doing their customers no favors here.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Hmmmm .... > > Anarchistic/Democratic Ogliarchic Meritocracy, really. Maybe we're an anarchosyndicalist commune. :-) groan.
> > JBoss is doing their customers no favors here. Actually they are. Through this partnership they will create increased market penetration and commmercial viability. That does their customers a favor because it presents stability and longevity. From a technical perspective you are correct but in the business world of wool suits and 300.00 ties, the technical perspective means exactly zip. It how good the guy in that suit feels about the technology being implemented (thus Windows for example). The exception being companies with a long standing technical background. Have you ever noticed that almost ALL migrations to OSS are driven by: 1. They have a large, existing UNIX installation thus they don't see a big difference using Linux. 2. They are after cost savings. You almost never (I never have) seen a migration that says: We moved to Linux and PostgreSQL over MSSQL and Windows2000 because Linux is better or PostgreSQL is bettter. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > You almost never (I never have) seen a migration that says: > > We moved to Linux and PostgreSQL over MSSQL and Windows2000 because > Linux is better or PostgreSQL is bettter. Actually, it depends on the environment ... I spent about 7years in a University CS dept and "costs" for the MS stuff wasn't a factor, but MS products were avoided like the plague when it came to production stuff ... I had a good portion of productions servers (dhcp, named, mail, news, proxy, etc) moved to FreeBSD (and PostgreSQL, where applicable) before I left because it *was* better, not because of costs ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
scott.marlowe@ihs.com ("scott.marlowe") writes:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> Hmmmm ....
>>
>> Anarchistic/Democratic Ogliarchic Meritocracy, really.
>
> Maybe we're an anarchosyndicalist commune. :-) groan.
Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on
about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="cbbrowne.com" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/advocacy.html
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
-- Vance Petree, Virginia Power
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Chris Browne wrote:
> scott.marlowe@ihs.com ("scott.marlowe") writes:
> > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
> >> Hmmmm ....
> >>
> >> Anarchistic/Democratic Ogliarchic Meritocracy, really.
> >
> > Maybe we're an anarchosyndicalist commune. :-) groan.
>
> Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on
> about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
Can you keep it down a bit, I was trying to listen to Scott, eh? :)
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> Oligarchic technocracy? Hegemonic meritocracy more like it :P Chris
> FreeBSD has a 'core', Linux has Linus ... there is always a "controlling > power" at the top of the food chain ... whether or not they impose their > will often (or ever) is another story, but its still there ... Anyone who's ever tried to get a dodgy patch past Tom knows why good open source projects need a "core"... :) Chris
> FirebirdSQL or Postgresql would both be a much better choice for databases > to put underneath a J2EE server, and I'm willing to bet money that the > coders at JBoss know it. > > JBoss is doing their customers no favors here. JBoss customers need a windows version. PostgreSQL cannot offer that. Chris
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > FirebirdSQL or Postgresql would both be a much better choice for databases > > to put underneath a J2EE server, and I'm willing to bet money that the > > coders at JBoss know it. > > > > JBoss is doing their customers no favors here. > > JBoss customers need a windows version. PostgreSQL cannot offer that. True, but FirebirdSQL does, and it's far superior to MySQL.
Christopher Browne wrote: > In the last exciting episode, chriskl@familyhealth.com.au (Christopher Kings-Lynne) wrote: > >> What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how > >> autocratic they are, and make it seem like a good thing. > > > > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit: > > > > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight > > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are > > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the > > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul." > > It's just complete nonsense; some sort of claimed "spin" presumably > for the purpose of having _some_ sort of response to Bruce's comments > about 'community.' > > If anything, PostgreSQL is the _only_ one of the lot having something > akin to "representative democracy." If I want to get a feature in, I > need to go and find a "representative" in Core to champion that > feature. Seems pretty "representative" to me. You don't need core buy-in to get a patch applied. Core may make suggestions, as others will, before it finally gets in, but you can shoot for a vote anytime. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Josh Berkus wrote: > Hmmmm .... > > Anarchistic/Democratic Ogliarchic Meritocracy, really. > > Boy, ain't that fun to say! > > The Core may be an "ogilarchy", but most things are decided individually or > collectively by Hackers and the sub-project leads, whose influence is almost > directly based on seniority and contributions to the project. Also, we > seldom take votes with actual counts; our "voting" process tends to be more > reminicent of anarchist labor organizations and political groups, where we > attempt to build a consensus out of all participants or "all minus one". Agreed. People who disagree usually have some good point that we can work into the solution to make it better, and have everyone happy. > Also, Core is aware that we can't do anything that we can't persuade the > majority of contributors is a good idea, lest we lose people from the > project. Now that is a good analysis! -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) transmitted:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> In the last exciting episode, chriskl@familyhealth.com.au (Christopher Kings-Lynne) wrote:
>> >> What I find fascinating is how MySQL manages to declare how
>> >> autocratic they are, and make it seem like a good thing.
>> >
>> > OMG. Quotes like this just make me want to vomit:
>> >
>> > "While something like PostgreSQL or Berkeley DB are straight
>> > democracies," he explained, "MySQL -- and JBoss, to an extent -- are
>> > more akin to representative democracies, such we have here in the
>> > U.S. It's more efficient over the long haul."
>>
>> It's just complete nonsense; some sort of claimed "spin" presumably
>> for the purpose of having _some_ sort of response to Bruce's comments
>> about 'community.'
>>
>> If anything, PostgreSQL is the _only_ one of the lot having something
>> akin to "representative democracy." If I want to get a feature in, I
>> need to go and find a "representative" in Core to champion that
>> feature. Seems pretty "representative" to me.
>
> You don't need core buy-in to get a patch applied. Core may make
> suggestions, as others will, before it finally gets in, but you can
> shoot for a vote anytime.
Well, if I want a patch added, it needs to get applied by _somebody_.
Core's a pretty "usual set of suspects" on that :-).
The issue of whether it all precisely fits with "democracy" or
"autocracy" or such seems pretty iffy, in any case. It's _not_ an
"anarchal syndicalist commune" (in Monty Python and the Holy Grail
style), but attempts to pigeonhole these things surely point people's
thoughts to Pythonesque zaniness.
The slant that hasn't been noticed that is probably the _real_ desire
is for people to look at things with the following parallel:
- MySQL gets compared to "representative democracy," the wondrous way
of the US.
- The alternatives are _obviously_ suspiciously UnAmerican political
arrangements.
Heavens! "Pure democracy!" that's the sort of UnAmerican arrangement
that only occurs in a "peoples' democratic republic," which means that
our corporate friends are wrapped in the Red, White, and Blue, and the
rest of us must be, well, Reds...
--
output = reverse("gro.mca" "@" "enworbbc")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/postgresql.html
Monday is an awful way to spend one seventh of your life. -- Unknown
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Christopher Browne wrote: > - MySQL gets compared to "representative democracy," the wondrous way > of the US. The US ... oh ya, that's the country south of me that comes up with shady intelligence as a means to justify blowing apart a country and hoping to put it back together in some sort of reasonable time frame, right? :) Almost sounds like MySQL 'crash-me' test ;) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Marc, > The US ... oh ya, that's the country south of me that comes up with shady > intelligence as a means to justify blowing apart a country and hoping to > put it back together in some sort of reasonable time frame, right? :) > Almost sounds like MySQL 'crash-me' test ;) HEY! That's completely unfair. The "crash-me" test is actually OK and more fair than I expected it to be. ;-) -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Marc, > > > The US ... oh ya, that's the country south of me that comes up with shady > > intelligence as a means to justify blowing apart a country and hoping to > > put it back together in some sort of reasonable time frame, right? :) > > Almost sounds like MySQL 'crash-me' test ;) > > HEY! That's completely unfair. > > The "crash-me" test is actually OK and more fair than I expected it to be. > ;-) Canadian politics are fun ... our politicians are generally idiots, but so far we've avoided the 'religious fanatics' *shiver* we have one party here that may yet change that ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Christopher Browne wrote: > > >> - MySQL gets compared to "representative democracy," the wondrous way >> of the US. > > > The US ... oh ya, that's the country south of me that comes up with shady > intelligence as a means to justify blowing apart a country and hoping to > put it back together in some sort of reasonable time frame, right? :) Easy... Some people one this list may take offense to a comment such as that. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > Almost sounds like MySQL 'crash-me' test ;) > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Attachment
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> >>> - MySQL gets compared to "representative democracy," the wondrous way >>> of the US. >> >> >> The US ... oh ya, that's the country south of me that comes up with shady >> intelligence as a means to justify blowing apart a country and hoping to >> put it back together in some sort of reasonable time frame, right? :) > > Easy... Some people one this list may take offense to a comment such as > that. That's only the people who try to cover up their shame and awkwardness by "getting offended". They should be offended by things like this http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html http://www.counterpunch.org/green02242003.html http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/23/news-crogan.php which is an important part of what Marc was talking about because that was the reason why said shady intelligence was necessary in the first place. I think that is more broken pride than offense. Regards, Jan > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > > >> Almost sounds like MySQL 'crash-me' test ;) >> >> ---- >> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) >> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? >> >> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 07:00:41AM -0500, Lamar Owen wrote: > Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. Benevolent oligarchic meritocracy, perhaps. It seems to me that this project takes more seriously than any other I've seen the idea that the best code wins, and you'd better be able to explain your idea of "best". Sure, one can get skewered pretty badly on -hackers for being wrong; that's good. It sure seems to make for better code. Also, it seems to make for remarkably few political struggles. A -- Andrew Sullivan | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 07:00:41AM -0500, Lamar Owen wrote: > > Benevolent oligarchy is the term you want. > > Benevolent oligarchic meritocracy, perhaps. It seems to me that this > project takes more seriously than any other I've seen the idea that > the best code wins, and you'd better be able to explain your idea of > "best". Sure, one can get skewered pretty badly on -hackers for being > wrong; that's good. It sure seems to make for better code. Also, it > seems to make for remarkably few political struggles. Ya, its been something we've been complimented on many times over the years ... the "low incidence" of flame wars on the lists ... we have the occasional, but they never get too far out of hand, or last long ... I think we tend to be a relatively mature (not old, just mature) group ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Andrew, > Also, it > seems to make for remarkably few political struggles. Not really ... mostly we're just good at keeping our struggles out of the public eye, and focused on "what's good for PostgreSQL." As I've said before, mostly it's a matter of trust; very few people would accuse Tom or Bruce of having ulterior motives that would trump their desires to promote & improve postgresql. So while one may disagree with Tom on hackers (and lose the argument) one pretty much always feels that one's ideas were rejected on real grounds of merit, strategy, or database theory -- even if you don't agree with his conclusions. Of course, there is a real finesse to getting your ideas through Hackers. ;-) -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 12:34:01PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > Andrew, > > > Also, it > > seems to make for remarkably few political struggles. > > Not really ... mostly we're just good at keeping our struggles out of the > public eye, and focused on "what's good for PostgreSQL." Where I come from, political struggles that stay out of the public eye are just disagreements. I guess my point is mostly (as you note) that the real force seems to have to do with reason rather than naked appeal to power. And while I may have a great deal of sympathy with Foucault, I don't go for the line that there's simply no difference at all between, "You shouldn't write your code that way because it breaks on SCO," and, "You shouldn't write your code that way because I won't let it get committed if you do." Both are good arguments in favour of writing your code differently; only one of them gives you an inkling why anyone would care what you did. Ok, I'm putting the philosopher back in its box now. Bye bye, philosopher. Please go away :) A -- Andrew Sullivan | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
* Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> wrote: <snip> > JBoss customers need a windows version. PostgreSQL cannot offer that. has anyone tried to compile psql under cygwin or mingw32 ? ;-) cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, There are Cygwin versions available now... From Cygwin and nicely packaged ones from Command Prompt and DbExperts. Enrico Weigelt wrote: > * Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> wrote: > > <snip> > >>JBoss customers need a windows version. PostgreSQL cannot offer that. > > has anyone tried to compile psql under cygwin or mingw32 ? ;-) > > cu -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL