Thread: Hello and some questions
Hey everyone, Looks like I was able to con Dave into letting me on this list. ;-) j/k. I've been going through the archives to get caught up to speed and I wanted to ask a couple of basic overview questions: 1. What is the current take on having one common design that is an integration of look, feel, and navigation across all of the sub-sites? 2. What is the current preference on programming languages for the seperate sites? 3. Is programatic content management being done at all on the sites, or are they done via manual HTML editing? 4. What areas are open to modification, discussion, design and implementation, and what are off limits? Sorry if I'm asking any redundant questions that could be found farther back in the archives. Thanks, Gavin
Hi Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] > Sent: 15 December 2003 21:34 > To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: [pgsql-www] Hello and some questions > > Hey everyone, > > Looks like I was able to con Dave into letting me on this list. ;-) > j/k. I've been going through the archives to get caught up to speed > and I wanted to ask a couple of basic overview questions: :-) > 1. What is the current take on having one common design that > is an integration of look, feel, and navigation across all of > the sub-sites? That is something I think we're all agreed we would like to see. > 2. What is the current preference on programming languages > for the seperate sites? PHP4. Arguments could be made for using a CMS such as Bricolage for techdocs however (I think Josh looked at this, though I don't know how far he got). > 3. Is programatic content management being done at all on > the sites, or are they done via manual HTML editing? Andreas' new portal is all DB backed content with online translation/editting, as is the existing advocacy site iirc. The existing portal has news, events and the docs in the DB. Techdocs is a mix of PHP pages with content and Wiki code iirc. > 4. What areas are open to modification, discussion, design > and implementation, and what are off limits? Nothing is off-limits though we should be giving priority to Andreas' new code at the moment. Once the main portal is as we wish, then the rest of the sites can be brought in line. Regards, Dave.
Thanks for the quick update. I'll just offer out there both design and programming assistance to whoever needs it on which ever project. I'm a competent PHP coder (been using it since 2.0) and do a bit of design work. I don't want to stick my nose where it isn't welcome, so if anyone has anything they want to hand off or collaborate on, let me know. Gavin Dave Page wrote: >Hi Gavin > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] >>Sent: 15 December 2003 21:34 >>To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org >>Subject: [pgsql-www] Hello and some questions >> >>Hey everyone, >> >> Looks like I was able to con Dave into letting me on this list. ;-) >>j/k. I've been going through the archives to get caught up to speed >>and I wanted to ask a couple of basic overview questions: >> >> > >:-) > > > >>1. What is the current take on having one common design that >>is an integration of look, feel, and navigation across all of >>the sub-sites? >> >> > >That is something I think we're all agreed we would like to see. > > > >>2. What is the current preference on programming languages >>for the seperate sites? >> >> > >PHP4. Arguments could be made for using a CMS such as Bricolage for >techdocs however (I think Josh looked at this, though I don't know how >far he got). > > > >>3. Is programatic content management being done at all on >>the sites, or are they done via manual HTML editing? >> >> > >Andreas' new portal is all DB backed content with online >translation/editting, as is the existing advocacy site iirc. The >existing portal has news, events and the docs in the DB. Techdocs is a >mix of PHP pages with content and Wiki code iirc. > > > >>4. What areas are open to modification, discussion, design >>and implementation, and what are off limits? >> >> > >Nothing is off-limits though we should be giving priority to Andreas' >new code at the moment. Once the main portal is as we wish, then the >rest of the sites can be brought in line. > >Regards, Dave. > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend > >
On Monday 15 December 2003 16:34, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> Looks like I was able to con Dave into letting me on this list. ;-)
> j/k. I've been going through the archives to get caught up to speed
> and I wanted to ask a couple of basic overview questions:
>
I'm quasi piggybacking dave's response here...
> 1. What is the current take on having one common design that is an
> integration of look, feel, and navigation across all of the sub-sites?
The current plan goes something like this:
1) Finish work on Andreas' code to make the main www multi-lingual.
2a) Fold the links/information from advocacy into the main www site.
2b) Fold the links/information from develope. into the main www site.
3a) Determine which parts of techdocs we want moved into the main www site.
3b) Move any remaining bits of techdocs into a new architecture (current is
crufty php manually maintained) I personally think it should be openacs, but
even homebrew php done correctly would be a major upgrade.
> 4. What areas are open to modification, discussion, design and
> implementation, and what are off limits?
>
I don't think anything is offlimits, but IMO anything other than work on
Andreas' code is a waste of time right now... you can get Andreas code from
CVS. please start hacking on it. please.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert, > 3b) Move any remaining bits of techdocs into a new architecture (current is > crufty php manually maintained) I personally think it should be openacs, but > even homebrew php done correctly would be a major upgrade. The problem is that OpenACS is an architecture, it's *not* a content manager. Honestly, my first thought when Justin "handed over" techdocs to me (not that I;ve done anything with it) was to contact the OpenACS folks and see if there was a full-service CMS built on OpenACS. There's not. Also, Bricolage's setup of generating static files from dynamic content should work a lot better with our site setup. It would mean that the majority of the Techdocs material could be mirrored just like the rest of www. If I end up running Techdocs, or if Elein does (I've suggested it becuase of the amount of energy she's put into General Bits) we're going to want a real CMS so that we don't spend time debugging HMTL/PHP that could be better spent managing authors and writing. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Not that I'm trying to stir things up, but I do have a fairly solid php cms infrastructure that can be used, and would love to have you guys evaluate for use... it would require a php/pgsql setup for www hosts, and we would use replication to drive the content down. Yes a major change in how things are structured, but change can be good. Gavin Josh Berkus wrote: >Robert, > > > >>3b) Move any remaining bits of techdocs into a new architecture (current is >>crufty php manually maintained) I personally think it should be openacs, but >>even homebrew php done correctly would be a major upgrade. >> >> > >The problem is that OpenACS is an architecture, it's *not* a content manager. >Honestly, my first thought when Justin "handed over" techdocs to me (not that >I;ve done anything with it) was to contact the OpenACS folks and see if there >was a full-service CMS built on OpenACS. There's not. > >Also, Bricolage's setup of generating static files from dynamic content should >work a lot better with our site setup. It would mean that the majority of >the Techdocs material could be mirrored just like the rest of www. > >If I end up running Techdocs, or if Elein does (I've suggested it becuase of >the amount of energy she's put into General Bits) we're going to want a real >CMS so that we don't spend time debugging HMTL/PHP that could be better spent >managing authors and writing. > > >
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > Robert, > > > 3b) Move any remaining bits of techdocs into a new architecture (current is > > crufty php manually maintained) I personally think it should be openacs, but > > even homebrew php done correctly would be a major upgrade. > > The problem is that OpenACS is an architecture, it's *not* a content > manager. Honestly, my first thought when Justin "handed over" techdocs > to me (not that I;ve done anything with it) was to contact the OpenACS > folks and see if there was a full-service CMS built on OpenACS. > There's not. Not that I'm advocating one solution over another, but doesn't OACS 5.x have a CMS? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Marc,
> Not that I'm advocating one solution over another, but doesn't OACS 5.x
> have a CMS?
News to me. Has anyone seen it?
--
-Josh Berkus
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Josh Berkus
Complete information technology josh@agliodbs.com
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] > Sent: 16 December 2003 22:39 > To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Hello and some questions > > Not that I'm trying to stir things up, but I do have a fairly > solid php cms infrastructure that can be used, and would love > to have you guys evaluate for use... it would require a > php/pgsql setup for www hosts, and we would use replication > to drive the content down. Yes a major change in how things > are structured, but change can be good. Can it handle translations? What's required to set it up? - we can certainly take a peek. Do you have any examples of it running on a public site already we might look at? Regards, Dave.
"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Not that I'm trying to stir things up, but I do have a fairly > > solid php cms infrastructure that can be used, and would love > > to have you guys evaluate for use... it would require a > > php/pgsql setup for www hosts, and we would use replication > > to drive the content down. Yes a major change in how things > > are structured, but change can be good. > > Can it handle translations? > Yeah. See http://openacs.org/doc/openacs-5-0-0/release-notes.html > What's required to set it up? - we can certainly take a peek. Do you > have any examples of it running on a public site already we might look > at? > Instructions ? Here http://openacs.org/doc/openacs-5-0-0/install-steps.html Public Site running it? Here http://openacs.org/community/sites/ IMHO, I think we need to try a CMS product. If we can't find it, let's improve what we have. -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira euler (at) ufgnet.ufg.br Desenvolvedor Web e Administrador de Sistemas UFGNet - Universidade Federal de Goiás
On Tuesday 16 December 2003 17:07, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > 3b) Move any remaining bits of techdocs into a new architecture (current
> > is crufty php manually maintained) I personally think it should be
> > openacs, but even homebrew php done correctly would be a major upgrade.
>
> The problem is that OpenACS is an architecture, it's *not* a content
> manager.
The problem is that everyone talks about what needs to be done but no one
actually does anything...
> Honestly, my first thought when Justin "handed over" techdocs to
> me (not that I;ve done anything with it) was to contact the OpenACS folks
> and see if there was a full-service CMS built on OpenACS. There's not.
I'm no openacs expert, but there are multiple CMS packages available. Whether
they meet your definition of "full featured" I couldn't say.
>
> Also, Bricolage's setup of generating static files from dynamic content
> should work a lot better with our site setup. It would mean that the
> majority of the Techdocs material could be mirrored just like the rest of
> www.
yep, thats a bonus, though given we don't serve developer, techdocs, or
advocacy through the mirror system now, I wouldn't think that its a terribly
high priority. A better feature would be openacs 5.x support for
internationalization, which IIRC we won't be getting with bric.
>
> If I end up running Techdocs, or if Elein does (I've suggested it becuase
> of the amount of energy she's put into General Bits) we're going to want a
> real CMS so that we don't spend time debugging HMTL/PHP that could be
> better spent managing authors and writing.
This is too rich. As the guy who has actually been stymied on several attempts
to move techdocs into the future, and the one who is actually updating the
content now, please let me know when one of you two is ready to "start
running things". You seem to think that there is some floodgate of authors
writing articles with no way to get them on-line... I just don't think thats
the case. Techdocs works better when the casual passer by can post responses
and updates to articles on the fly, building upon others body of work. This
is why the guides portion has done well, but the downside to using the
wiki software is that you generally have no good way to publish content that
you want to remain static. acs gives you both of these things, which is why i
think it's worth investigating. But as I said before, even homebrew php
done correctly would be a big improvment over the code we have now. Right now
1/2 the site is straight files, 1/2 is coming from a database that's laid out
badly and theres little to no interface into the database other than a
mismatched version of psql...
<sigh>
but all of this is secondary to getting Andreas code finished up so we can
begin unifying the various websites. Thats where we really need to
concentrate because it is the roadblock to new development...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Yes it handles multiple languages, has multiple levels of authorization before taking a content page live ( Approval and Activation ), support for multiple administrative users and permissions options per content key. It is currently running the http://www.gamesnet.net and http://www.phpcommune.org site. While it wouldn't be ideal for say the idocs section of the site, I have been thinking on it and have an idea on how to make it work well there. I am almost done with a major re-write of the core parser to make it less db and process intensive, and could throw together a sample site based upon some sort of layout representative of the PgSQL site in about a week (other commitments at work this week). Some URL's covering multi-lingual support: http://www.gamesnet.net/start http://www.gamesnet.net/aup http://www.gamesnet.net/servicesCommands Gavin Dave Page wrote: > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] >>Sent: 16 December 2003 22:39 >>To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org >>Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Hello and some questions >> >>Not that I'm trying to stir things up, but I do have a fairly >>solid php cms infrastructure that can be used, and would love >>to have you guys evaluate for use... it would require a >>php/pgsql setup for www hosts, and we would use replication >>to drive the content down. Yes a major change in how things >>are structured, but change can be good. >> >> > >Can it handle translations? > >What's required to set it up? - we can certainly take a peek. Do you >have any examples of it running on a public site already we might look >at? > >Regards, Dave. > >
Robert, > The problem is that everyone talks about what needs to be done but no one > actually does anything... Yep. > I'm no openacs expert, but there are multiple CMS packages available. > Whether they meet your definition of "full featured" I couldn't say. There didn't used to be. Maybe there are now. > This is too rich. As the guy who has actually been stymied on several > attempts to move techdocs into the future, and the one who is actually > updating the content now, please let me know when one of you two is ready > to "start running things". Um, no offense, but I don't see anything happening with Techdocs now, from anybody. Including you. You seem to think that there is some floodgate > of authors writing articles with no way to get them on-line... I just don't > think thats the case. Have you taken a look at General Bits lately? Elein manages to get 2 new articles a week -- partly because she's persistent, and partly becuase authors submitting to General Bits don't need to do their own HTML formatting. > Techdocs works better when the casual passer by can > post responses and updates to articles on the fly, building upon others > body of work. Yeah, that would be cool. > but all of this is secondary to getting Andreas code finished up so we can > begin unifying the various websites. Thats where we really need to > concentrate because it is the roadblock to new development... Agreed. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Wed, 2003-12-17 at 12:32, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > This is too rich. As the guy who has actually been stymied on several
> > attempts to move techdocs into the future, and the one who is actually
> > updating the content now, please let me know when one of you two is ready
> > to "start running things".
>
> Um, no offense, but I don't see anything happening with Techdocs now, from
> anybody. Including you.
Like maintaining the list of hosting providers? Or the list of support
companies? Or researching and updating missing/broken articles? Or
adding new articles and links? Maybe those types of things aren't sexy
enough for you though?
Early on I tried to get some kind of revision system set up by getting
the code into CVS, to allow anyone to get access to enable contributing,
only to have folks bypass CVS and/or complain that CVS wasn't an
acceptable form on managing content, so I acquiesced.
I also tried to get the site moved over to the new VM, but we got
stalled there after Dave/Marc had trouble getting Zope set up and Justin
was unable to assist. Shortly there after the plan to set up and move
everything to bric was announced, so again I acquiesced.
The next thing I started doing was some planning on content that could
be moved out of techdocs and onto the main www server code, only to be
stymied there because of Andreas work which would lead toward parallel
development.
Even now I feel like rewriting some pieces of the back end, but it seems
like a waste of time if we ever get Andreas code done and/or the site
moved into bric...
I wont argue that techdocs is somewhat of a bastard child these days,
but it's certainly not due to lack of effort on my part.
>
> You seem to think that there is some floodgate
> > of authors writing articles with no way to get them on-line... I just don't
> > think thats the case.
>
> Have you taken a look at General Bits lately? Elein manages to get 2 new
> articles a week -- partly because she's persistent, and partly becuase
> authors submitting to General Bits don't need to do their own HTML
> formatting.
>
Help me out 'cause I don't see all of these articles you are referring
to. Unless you're referring to the different sections of each issue of
General Bits (?) which Elaine writes herself (which are pruned from the
mailing lists...) But I certainly can't find the "two new articles a
week" of the caliber you find on techdocs (Set Returning Functions, Full
Text Indexing, Adventures In PostgreSQL, etc..) Don't get me wrong,
there are some good articles on the General Bits site, like the recent
article you co-authored on performance tuning, but given that Elein
doesn't use a fancy CMS nor were you refused help with putting your
articles up on techdocs, I don't see how her site's architecture has any
bearing on getting articles written. IMHO it's too bad she doesn't use
her persistence to help improve the situation with the community sites
rather than splintering things further on her own (something I have
mentioned to her before).
You know though, I see a pattern here... take the jobs.postgresql.org
site, which is still not updated with the text that I suggested close to
two weeks ago. While several people keep kicking back and forth ideas on
what would be the ideal solution for a jobs site, Marc has quietly
implemented a solution (the jobs mailing list) that offers the majority
of functionality that most people would want, yet outside of myself
there has been virtually no support given for that idea, I guess since
people didn't think it was good enough... ?
> > but all of this is secondary to getting Andreas code finished up so we can
> > begin unifying the various websites. Thats where we really need to
> > concentrate because it is the roadblock to new development...
>
> Agreed.
>
Actually thats not totally fair to Andreas and Co., since there is
nothing stopping you all from installing bric and moving content into
it...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Robert Treat wrote: > I also tried to get the site moved over to the new VM, but we got > stalled there after Dave/Marc had trouble getting Zope set up and Justin > was unable to assist. Shortly there after the plan to set up and move > everything to bric was announced, so again I acquiesced. Hrmmm ... I don't remember this, but my memory just isn't what it used to be ... it should just be a matter of copying /usr/local/www/zope over to the main VM though ... do you happen to recall what issues we got stymied on? Is Zope the only thing that problematic to move? Any other requirements? > Actually thats not totally fair to Andreas and Co., since there is > nothing stopping you all from installing bric and moving content into > it... What is stop'ng anyone from installing bric and running with it? Out of all the conversations I've seen on this whole thing, I *think* its always come back to using bric ... if that is the case, let's do it ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
-On [20031218 05:42], Marc G. Fournier (scrappy@postgresql.org) wrote: >What is stop'ng anyone from installing bric and running with it? Out of >all the conversations I've seen on this whole thing, I *think* its always >come back to using bric ... if that is the case, let's do it ... Mmm. I've been lurking on these lists and I wonder about this: has a small overview been made what _exactly_ you want to do with the site and what features it should have? Only from that point can you even start to work towards an implementation. Right now for tendra.org (not visible, should be later on today) I started with bare HTML and am moving it to XML/XSLT and XHTML. This allows me to write skeleton files for the layout and have simple XML files where people can record entries and have the XML/XSLT stuff take care of updating the webpages by means of makefiles. Of course, it is pretty simple, but suitable for what I need. Now, if you guys say, we have X number of diehard HTML/SGML/XML and so on experts and that's way too low for our community to administer the website, yeah, then I can understand why you want to go the CMS way. Are you guys looking at a system that allows people, kind of like how a weblog does it, to submit texts, have other people (website maintainers/moderators) approve them and have the underlying system take care of it, be it versioned or not? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono PGP fingerprint: 2D92 980E 45FE 2C28 9DB7 9D88 97E6 839B 2EAC 625B http://www.tendra.org/ | http://diary.in-nomine.org/ What did you see that was so terrible? Myself.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Marc G. Fournier [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] > Sent: 18 December 2003 04:32 > To: Robert Treat > Cc: Josh Berkus; Gavin M. Roy; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Hello and some questions > > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Robert Treat wrote: > > > I also tried to get the site moved over to the new VM, but we got > > stalled there after Dave/Marc had trouble getting Zope set up and > > Justin was unable to assist. Shortly there after the plan to set up > > and move everything to bric was announced, so again I acquiesced. > > Hrmmm ... I don't remember this, but my memory just isn't > what it used to be ... it should just be a matter of copying > /usr/local/www/zope over to the main VM though ... do you > happen to recall what issues we got stymied on? Is Zope the > only thing that problematic to move? Any other requirements? I did that and it didn't work. I forget the error, but no-one could help fix it at the time. Has anyone looked at Gavin's work as a potential replacement BTW? > > Actually thats not totally fair to Andreas and Co., since there is > > nothing stopping you all from installing bric and moving > content into > > it... > > What is stop'ng anyone from installing bric and running with > it? Out of all the conversations I've seen on this whole > thing, I *think* its always come back to using bric ... if > that is the case, let's do it ... Last time Justin tried to get Bric to work he couldn't get it to go without killing PHP (iirc he was trying for quite some time as well). I remember waking up one Sunday or Saturday to a barrage of emails about www serving raw php code :-( Regards, Dave.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dave Page wrote: > Last time Justin tried to get Bric to work he couldn't get it to go > without killing PHP (iirc he was trying for quite some time as well). I > remember waking up one Sunday or Saturday to a barrage of emails about > www serving raw php code :-( 'k, if that is all it is, is Bric the direction we want to go? I'll get it up and running if that is all that is slowing us down on that ... someone just says "yea, let's go with it" and it shall be done ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Robert, > Like maintaining the list of hosting providers? Or the list of support > companies? Or researching and updating missing/broken articles? Or > adding new articles and links? Maybe those types of things aren't sexy > enough for you though? I didn't know that you were doing that ... it's not really visible from the main page, and I've not been getting any of the e-mail. So, by the principles of Volunteerocracy, you are now in charge. What do *you* want to do with Techdocs? > Early on I tried to get some kind of revision system set up by getting > the code into CVS, to allow anyone to get access to enable contributing, > only to have folks bypass CVS and/or complain that CVS wasn't an > acceptable form on managing content, so I acquiesced. Hmmm ... I recall saying that CVS was not adequate as a CMS but was better than flat HTML. Who else did you get oppostion from? Justin? > Help me out 'cause I don't see all of these articles you are referring > to. Unless you're referring to the different sections of each issue of > General Bits (?) which Elaine writes herself (which are pruned from the > mailing lists...) http://www.varlena.com/varlena/GeneralBits/Tidbits/index.php ... but you're right, it's more like 1 per week. > But I certainly can't find the "two new articles a > week" of the caliber you find on techdocs (Set Returning Functions, Full > Text Indexing, Adventures In PostgreSQL, etc..) > Don't get me wrong, > there are some good articles on the General Bits site, like the recent > article you co-authored on performance tuning, but given that Elein > doesn't use a fancy CMS nor were you refused help with putting your > articles up on techdocs, I don't see how her site's architecture has any > bearing on getting articles written. IMHO it's too bad she doesn't use > her persistence to help improve the situation with the community sites > rather than splintering things further on her own (something I have > mentioned to her before). She's been led to believe, by some former members of our community, that there is some kind of secret cabal running our Web presence and that she is not welcome. I've been working on disabusing her of that notion. Offering to put her "in charge" of Techdocs seemed like a good move in that regard. There's also the issue of her advertising revenue, but that should be surmountable. Funny you should bring up the Indexing articles, though ... you know why there was never a third or forth one? Because I got bogged down doing the markup, and trying to revise the 1st two articles which are already marked up .... so really, my emphasis on a CMS is all about *me*. *I* don't want to do manual HTML markup on everything I write; the magazines I submit articles do don't require me to format them (heck, they don't *want* me to format them), and overall I've found that it took me as long to markup Indexing II as it took me to write it. Nor do I want you doing the markup, I want you working on other stuff for the community. I happen to believe that there are other potential authors ... Stephan Szabo, Robert Bernier, Joe Conway, etc, ... who would write for our web sites if they had a clearer and easier access path to do so. > You know though, I see a pattern here... take the jobs.postgresql.org > site, which is still not updated with the text that I suggested close to > two weeks ago. While several people keep kicking back and forth ideas on > what would be the ideal solution for a jobs site, As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is secondary to the effort. My company will be contributing *complete* code from our specification becuase it is of indirect commercial benefit to us. Nobody from the www group needs to waste time on it until somebody is ready to add features. Also, I think you should get used to the fact that in OSS projects there are 6 people on mailing lists arguing about stuff for every 1 person who actually does anything. Heck, 1 of 7 is pretty good in comparison to OpenOffice.org, where it's more like 1 of 150. > Marc has quietly > implemented a solution (the jobs mailing list) that offers the majority > of functionality that most people would want, yet outside of myself > there has been virtually no support given for that idea, I guess since > people didn't think it was good enough... ? It's not good enough for my company, which is why we're working on a replacement. Until our replacement is ready, though, I think that we definitely need to get the text and references to the mailing list up. What' the holdup on this? Does anyone know where jobs.postgresql.org is stored? > Actually thats not totally fair to Andreas and Co., since there is > nothing stopping you all from installing bric and moving content into > it... Yes, there is, but that's completely tangental to Andreas' effort. We've a huge job creating all of the templates for Bric. Once those templates are created, it's easy, but until then .... And I just worked the PR for 7.4, and then lost my office, so I've been a little distracted. Nobody's paying me to work on the community full time any more than you. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Marc, > 'k, if that is all it is, is Bric the direction we want to go? I'll get > it up and running if that is all that is slowing us down on that ... > someone just says "yea, let's go with it" and it shall be done ... No, we have Bric running on a demo server. The holdup is designing the templates. FYI, if we do go Bric, it will need some special setup, but we can discuss that *after* it's implemented, or not. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > She's been led to believe, by some former members of our community, that > there is some kind of secret cabal running our Web presence and that she > is not welcome. Well, there is a "cabal", but our membership requirements are kinda lax :) > It's not good enough for my company, which is why we're working on a > replacement. Until our replacement is ready, though, I think that we > definitely need to get the text and references to the mailing list up. > What' the holdup on this? Does anyone know where jobs.postgresql.org is > stored? Currently, same VM as techdocs, but, if there are no special requirements like with techdocs, we can very easily redirect/move it to the main VM ... its just an IP change in DNS ... just say the word ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 12:35, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > It's not good enough for my company, which is why we're working on a
> > replacement. Until our replacement is ready, though, I think that we
> > definitely need to get the text and references to the mailing list up.
That's all I would ask. Something is better than nothing as they say...
> > What' the holdup on this? Does anyone know where jobs.postgresql.org is
> > stored?
>
> Currently, same VM as techdocs, but, if there are no special requirements
> like with techdocs, we can very easily redirect/move it to the main VM ...
> its just an IP change in DNS ... just say the word ...
>
right, it's on the same VM. I'd have updated the text myself but I don't
have rights to the directory/files...
Marc, I think it would be a good idea to move it to the main VM now
before we get to involved in anything new.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
It's rumoured that Josh Berkus once said: > Robert, > >> Like maintaining the list of hosting providers? Or the list of support >> companies? Or researching and updating missing/broken articles? Or >> adding new articles and links? Maybe those types of things aren't sexy >> enough for you though? > > I didn't know that you were doing that ... it's not really visible from > the main page, and I've not been getting any of the e-mail. So, by > the principles of Volunteerocracy, you are now in charge. Most of the mail goes to the webmaster address, and is handled by Robert and I (depending on it's content). Robert has undertaken that role and the maintenance of techdocs since Justin stepped down. That takeover was certainly discussed on the lists, but granted that was before we archived it. > She's been led to believe, by some former members of our community, > that there is some kind of secret cabal running our Web presence and > that she is not welcome. I assume 'some former members' is actually 'one former member'? By all means, she is welcome to join the party - tell her to subscribe to the list and CC me so I know she's done it and I'll approve her request. > I've been working on disabusing her of that > notion. Offering to put her "in charge" of Techdocs seemed like a > good move in that regard. That is definately a community decision to make. Regards, Dave.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Robert Treat wrote: > Marc, I think it would be a good idea to move it to the main VM now > before we get to involved in anything new. Done ... /usr/local/www/jobs.postgresql.org/www on the www.postgresql.org VM ... DNS is changed to reflect the change in IP ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 12:14, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > Like maintaining the list of hosting providers? Or the list of support
> > companies? Or researching and updating missing/broken articles? Or
> > adding new articles and links? Maybe those types of things aren't sexy
> > enough for you though?
>
> I didn't know that you were doing that ... it's not really visible from the
> main page, and I've not been getting any of the e-mail. So, by the
> principles of Volunteerocracy, you are now in charge. What do *you* want to
> do with Techdocs?
I want to get someone else to run it :-) I'm only involved because
someone has to do it and no one else is stepping up to the plate. Same
thing goes for advocacy really... Justin left and someone had to pick up
the slack. It was discussed with others here and that's what shook out,
but I'll glad step aside if anyone else wants to run with it. Fair
warning though, the code in it's current shape is a bear to work with.
And that's really part of the issue... I don't want to spend my time
improving code if people are planning on running these sites under
different technology.
>
> > Early on I tried to get some kind of revision system set up by getting
> > the code into CVS, to allow anyone to get access to enable contributing,
> > only to have folks bypass CVS and/or complain that CVS wasn't an
> > acceptable form on managing content, so I acquiesced.
>
> Hmmm ... I recall saying that CVS was not adequate as a CMS but was better
> than flat HTML. Who else did you get oppostion from? Justin?
At least... I started moving things into CVS and he installed plone on
the site and kept updating files on the server...
>
> She's been led to believe, by some former members of our community, that there
> is some kind of secret cabal running our Web presence and that she is not
> welcome. I've been working on disabusing her of that notion. Offering to
> put her "in charge" of Techdocs seemed like a good move in that regard.
> There's also the issue of her advertising revenue, but that should be
> surmountable.
>
That's all ancient history at this point... we'll welcome contributions
from anyone, as long as there willing to work with the rest of the
team...
> Funny you should bring up the Indexing articles, though ... you know why there
> was never a third or forth one? Because I got bogged down doing the markup,
> and trying to revise the 1st two articles which are already marked up ....
> so really, my emphasis on a CMS is all about *me*. *I* don't want to do
> manual HTML markup on everything I write; the magazines I submit articles do
> don't require me to format them (heck, they don't *want* me to format them),
> and overall I've found that it took me as long to markup Indexing II as it
> took me to write it. Nor do I want you doing the markup, I want you working
> on other stuff for the community.
>
> I happen to believe that there are other potential authors ... Stephan Szabo,
> Robert Bernier, Joe Conway, etc, ... who would write for our web sites if
> they had a clearer and easier access path to do so.
>
Maybe I underestimate the complexity, but sending it to me and me
dumping it into html seems pretty easy... isn't this essentially what
Elein is doing now ?
> > You know though, I see a pattern here... take the jobs.postgresql.org
> > site, which is still not updated with the text that I suggested close to
> > two weeks ago. While several people keep kicking back and forth ideas on
> > what would be the ideal solution for a jobs site,
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is secondary to the effort. My
> company will be contributing *complete* code from our specification becuase
> it is of indirect commercial benefit to us. Nobody from the www group needs
> to waste time on it until somebody is ready to add features.
>
> Also, I think you should get used to the fact that in OSS projects there are 6
> people on mailing lists arguing about stuff for every 1 person who actually
> does anything. Heck, 1 of 7 is pretty good in comparison to OpenOffice.org,
> where it's more like 1 of 150.
>
> > Marc has quietly
> > implemented a solution (the jobs mailing list) that offers the majority
> > of functionality that most people would want, yet outside of myself
> > there has been virtually no support given for that idea, I guess since
> > people didn't think it was good enough... ?
>
> It's not good enough for my company, which is why we're working on a
> replacement. Until our replacement is ready, though, I think that we
> definitely need to get the text and references to the mailing list up.
exactly... how long do we wait for these solutions to appear? if we can
do something now I think it's a step in the right direction.
> > Actually thats not totally fair to Andreas and Co., since there is
> > nothing stopping you all from installing bric and moving content into
> > it...
>
> Yes, there is, but that's completely tangental to Andreas' effort. We've a
> huge job creating all of the templates for Bric. Once those templates are
> created, it's easy, but until then ....
>
whose working on that? you/elein? is there some way others could pitch
in?
> And I just worked the PR for 7.4, and then lost my office, so I've been a
> little distracted. Nobody's paying me to work on the community full time
> any more than you.
>
well, don't know that that is entirely true, given your company does
postgresql support, they do have a direct benefit from your
participation and gain a lot more from widening the community... really
a side issue though...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert,
> That's all ancient history at this point... we'll welcome contributions
> from anyone, as long as there willing to work with the rest of the
> team...
I'll invite her to join WWW.
> Maybe I underestimate the complexity, but sending it to me and me
> dumping it into html seems pretty easy... isn't this essentially what
> Elein is doing now ?
At least with my articles on Techdocs, the formatting was more complex than
that (code examples are a real pain). And it is what Elein is doing now,
which is also a bottleneck.
The advantage of a good CMS is that it "runs itself"; people contribute stuff
and other people approve it and it goes up, and this can all be a distributed
effort. Currently, people need root-level shell access to the VM to modify
anything.
> exactly... how long do we wait for these solutions to appear? if we can
> do something now I think it's a step in the right direction.
jobs.postgresql.org? End of January, maybe. It's code we've done before.
> whose working on that? you/elein? is there some way others could pitch
> in?
Yes. Let me find out from David Fetter if the test server is still
accessable.
> well, don't know that that is entirely true, given your company does
> postgresql support, they do have a direct benefit from your
> participation and gain a lot more from widening the community... really
> a side issue though...
That's why I said "full time"; right now I balance community management &
contributions with direct-pay work.
--
-Josh Berkus
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