Thread: 7.4 features list
When we started on 7.4 development, I was hoping for three major features: o PITR (point-in-time recovery)o Win32 porto Master-slave Postgres-R Now, the last one isn't going to happen because we didn't get any funding for the replication guys. The first one is being worked on by Patrick at Red Hat, and I have seen a patch, but I am not sure how close it is to completion. Patrick? For Win32, I was moving along well until I hit the fork/exec changes. They are extensive, and I am having problems because though the port is good from PeerDirect, it does take more work to get it up to our coding standards, and second, it is against 7.2, and I have to factor all changes up to our current CVS code. I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. I am unsure what we should do: delay code freezeallow Win32 patches during betadelay Win32 for 7.5 -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian wrote: > When we started on 7.4 development, I was hoping for three major > features: > > o PITR (point-in-time recovery) > o Win32 port > o Master-slave Postgres-R > > Now, the last one isn't going to happen because we didn't get any > funding for the replication guys. The first one is being worked on by > Patrick at Red Hat, and I have seen a patch, but I am not sure how close > it is to completion. Patrick? I am not near completion. However, I did post the remaining issues to the hacker list last week. At the moment, there does not seem to be negative feedback with the proposed modifications so I'll take that as acceptance. At the moment, I'm looking at a staggered integration at best. I'd like to get the on-disk changes into cvs asap. The rest can be pieced in over the next month or so. It's not the best solution but it is manageable. Patrick
On Mon, 5 May 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: > When we started on 7.4 development, I was hoping for three major > features: > > o PITR (point-in-time recovery) > o Win32 port > o Master-slave Postgres-R > > Now, the last one isn't going to happen because we didn't get any > funding for the replication guys. The first one is being worked on by > Patrick at Red Hat, and I have seen a patch, but I am not sure how close > it is to completion. Patrick? > > For Win32, I was moving along well until I hit the fork/exec changes. > They are extensive, and I am having problems because though the port is > good from PeerDirect, it does take more work to get it up to our coding > standards, and second, it is against 7.2, and I have to factor all > changes up to our current CVS code. > > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > I am unsure what we should do: > > delay code freeze > allow Win32 patches during beta > delay Win32 for 7.5 I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay for the coming release? Considering the slippage danger I'd say getting realistic estimates of the timetable for these features would be a good idea. Freezing can then be fixed at a time where there is a good chance the code will be done by and with the 'feature freeze' part emphasised, i.e. let the timetable slip this once but that's it. -- Nigel J. Andrews
Bruce Momjian schrieb: > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > I am unsure what we should do: > > delay code freeze > allow Win32 patches during beta > delay Win32 for 7.5 > I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. As much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32 version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official" win32 version. So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad choice. Cheers Thomas
"Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> writes:
> I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and
> wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments
> leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable
> slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature
> that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay
> for the coming release?
Unfortunately, we've heard that siren song before :-(
"Hold up this release just a little while I finish major feature X" was
exactly the logic that led us to slip the 7.1 and 7.2 releases by many
months, because "just a little" kept stretching. I don't think it's
fair to other developers to put the release on ice while one or two
people finish what they were supposed to have done on time. No one else
can plan to do useful work if the release schedule is driven by
"whenever Bruce/Patrick/Vadim/Tom/whoever gets done with X".
If we're going to slip then we should establish a new release target
date several months away (September or later), and hold to that schedule.
But is that really a better plan? We have accomplished quite a lot
since last September, and holding those improvements out of the hands of
users for months more is not a zero-cost thing. Nor do I take it as a
sure thing that we won't be hearing the very same complaint come
September. Both of these projects were supposed to have been done
months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that
they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still
have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again?
regards, tom lane
Hi there, On Mon, 5 May 2003, Thomas Kellerer wrote: > Bruce Momjian schrieb: > > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > > > I am unsure what we should do: > > > > delay code freeze > > allow Win32 patches during beta > > delay Win32 for 7.5 > > > I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. As > much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32 > version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm > happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a > business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official" > win32 version. > > So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad choice. That's also my opinion. Sometimes Justin forwards mails he receives from people concerned in PostgreSQL to the advocacy mailing list, and you'll notice that most of that people look like non-technical (ie, managers) and probably would like to develop their software without worrying about the plataform their database will have to run. Unfortunatelly I currently don't track -current nor have yet tested a Win32 snapshot (though I'd like to, once I looked for but I couldn't find any binary snapshot). If there's something to improve a lot the advocacy effort results, this would be a Win32 port. []sRicardo.
On Mon, 5 May 2003, Tom Lane wrote: > ... > > If we're going to slip then we should establish a new release target > date several months away (September or later), and hold to that schedule. That's why I say try and get a realistic estimate and then a judgment can be made as to whether the freeze stays or it slips _a little_. > But is that really a better plan? We have accomplished quite a lot > since last September, and holding those improvements out of the hands of > users for months more is not a zero-cost thing. Nor do I take it as a > sure thing that we won't be hearing the very same complaint come > September. Both of these projects were supposed to have been done > months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that > they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still > have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again? No, I wouldn't, but then I was thinking more of a month, two at the very most, certainly not stretching it as far as Sept. For a current client I actually prefer to get an early release, even June is pushing it a bit. On the other hand if the release isn't going to be out in time for me to switch to it for the first release of this project, which it may well not be on the current release schedule, then I'd certainly like one with PITR available to make upgrading attractive not just done for the sake of upgrading. -- Nigel J. Andrews
Amen. Since I now have some free time on my hands (through no choice of mine ;-( ) I can devote some of it to the W32 work if someone (Bruce?) would like to throw some tasks over the fence at me, to help shorten the cycle. (I take it from previous discussion what is basically needed is Windows+cygwin, right?) andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Kellerer" <spam_eater@gmx.net> To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > Bruce Momjian schrieb: > > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > > > I am unsure what we should do: > > > > delay code freeze > > allow Win32 patches during beta > > delay Win32 for 7.5 > > > I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. As > much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32 > version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm > happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a > business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official" > win32 version. > > So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad choice. > > Cheers > Thomas > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
I have gotten some replies so let me chime in now. Basically, here is how this happens --- you wait for a slow time to do this major work, and as the deadline draws near, you realize a slow time isn't coming and you stop doing anything else but the big project. I bet Patrick is in the same boat. I am not reading much email anymore, not participating in discussions, not applying patches, not adding other features --- but I underestimated the fork/exec issues and now I feel behind. I have phoned Jan and he is going to help me out, but at this point, I don't know if that will be enough so I am reporting to the group. Also, I am reporting problems now, rather than mid-May or June 1. As far as past delay disasters, the issues were: o waited until the deadline to extendo extended deadline in too small incrementso didn't set reasonable new deadlines So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still reasonable/desired. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Dunstan wrote: > Amen. > > Since I now have some free time on my hands (through no choice of mine > ;-( ) I can devote some of it to the W32 work if someone (Bruce?) would > like to throw some tasks over the fence at me, to help shorten the cycle. (I > take it from previous discussion what is basically needed is Windows+cygwin, > right?) > > andrew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Kellerer" <spam_eater@gmx.net> > To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > > > > > Bruce Momjian schrieb: > > > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > > > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > > > > > I am unsure what we should do: > > > > > > delay code freeze > > > allow Win32 patches during beta > > > delay Win32 for 7.5 > > > > > I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. > As > > much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32 > > version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm > > happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a > > business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official" > > win32 version. > > > > So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad > choice. > > > > Cheers > > Thomas > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> As far as past delay disasters, the issues were:
> o waited until the deadline to extend
> o extended deadline in too small increments
> o didn't set reasonable new deadlines
> So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to
> decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have
> to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still
> reasonable/desired.
Do you think there is a substantial chance that you will be done on July
1?
regards, tom lane
On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 21:08:37 +0100, "Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> wrote: > > I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and > wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments > leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable > slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature > that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay > for the coming release? There is already a lot of good stuff in 7.4. In my opinion what there is enough to justify a release even without PITR or the WIN32 port. That isn't to say that it isn't worth waiting a little to save some testing effort (if say a 7.5 were to come out very shortly after 7.4 with the WIN32 port or PITR), but if it is really going to be a couple of extra months some consideration should be given to getting the stuff you already have out to people.
Tom Lane wrote: > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > > As far as past delay disasters, the issues were: > > o waited until the deadline to extend > > o extended deadline in too small increments > > o didn't set reasonable new deadlines > > So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to > > decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have > > to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still > > reasonable/desired. > > Do you think there is a substantial chance that you will be done on July > 1? If it can't be done by July, then I think it isn't worth waiting for. I am working with Jan now, and he did the fork/exec part of the code, so let me see what he says tomorrow and I will report back. Patrick, can you finish PITR by July 1? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that postgres-r master-slave will be delayed to 7.5 because of it's lack of funding. How far delayed would Postgres-r be? I want both Postgres-r & win32 asap... So.. If PITR, win32 and Postgres-r will be done soon, but not soon enough to be in 7.4 why not get 7.4 out with what you have already (start the feature freeze early even) and then get a 7.5 out shortly afterwards? (say 4 months after, instead of 6?) That would also help with the perception people have of Postgres (The whole "have we lost momentum" thread). If postgres can be seen getting a number of releases out quickly, with major new (well tested, stable) features in each, that will definetly help Postgres' momentum as percieved by the world. Later Rob > On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 21:08:37 +0100, > "Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> wrote: > > > > I've wondered recently at other mentions of the impending feature freeze and > > wondering why that appears to have been set in stone. I know from comments > > leading to 7.3 that there have been problems in the past with timetable > > slippage but is it really sensible to essentially throw out a major feature > > that will take another 6+ months to be released for the sake of a short delay > > for the coming release? > > There is already a lot of good stuff in 7.4. In my opinion what there is > enough to justify a release even without PITR or the WIN32 port. > That isn't to say that it isn't worth waiting a little to save some > testing effort (if say a 7.5 were to come out very shortly after 7.4 > with the WIN32 port or PITR), but if it is really going to be a couple > of extra months some consideration should be given to getting the stuff > you already have out to people. > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > Sent: 05 May 2003 20:23 > To: PostgreSQL-development > Cc: patrickm@redhat.com > Subject: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > > I am unsure what we should do: > > delay code freeze > allow Win32 patches during beta > delay Win32 for 7.5 I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL. We have the patches, we know we (ok, you :-) ) can make them work, so let's delay the release as long as required (unless we're talking excessive amounts of time here) and get out the Win32 release many people have been talking about for 7.4. Just my 0.02p... Regards, Dave.
> I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the > people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my > opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass > us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL. I don't mind delaying either, because: 1. Most people still have not upgraded to 7.3 (check the vote on postgresql.org) 2. I don't think there are any 'compelling' features in 7.3 yet to make it worth the effort upgrading... PITR would be one such feature, however. Chris
> -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Kings-Lynne [mailto:chriskl@familyhealth.com.au] > Sent: 06 May 2003 09:07 > To: Dave Page; Bruce Momjian; PostgreSQL-development > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > > > I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for > many of the > > people on this list is extremely important for the project > itself in > > my opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even > complete newbies > > pass us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL. > > I don't mind delaying either, because: > > 1. Most people still have not upgraded to 7.3 (check the vote on > postgresql.org) Umm, that shows the opposite. However, the past survey 'What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?' does show Win32 being the second most important feature for adding new users next to replication (which we know won't happen). Regards, Dave.
Dave Page wrote: > >We have the patches, we know we (ok, you :-) ) can make them work, so >let's delay the release as long as required (unless we're talking >excessive amounts of time here) and get out the Win32 release many >people have been talking about for 7.4. > > > I'm just wondering why the win32 port is assumed to be a FEATURE. To me, a feature is a functionality available on all supported platforms. At the moment, native win32 just isn't a supported platform. Why not releasing 7.4 with all stable enhancements on the existing platforms, and make a 7.4.1 release stating "now we also support the win32 platform"? Just another suggestion regarding the feature list: The current implementation of statement triggers is incomplete, making it virtually useless. At the moment, it's quite like an update statement that doesn't support a where clause. This should be taken out of the announced features list, because this would provoke a lot of how-to mailing list entries that have to be answered "you can't" resulting in user's frustration. Neil Conway, who made the patch so far, won't have time to complete it before August or September, and it seems nobody else has the time to do this until July 1. Regards, Andreas
Bruce Momjian wrote: > If it can't be done by July, then I think it isn't worth waiting for. I > am working with Jan now, and he did the fork/exec part of the code, so > let me see what he says tomorrow and I will report back. > > Patrick, can you finish PITR by July 1? It sounds reasonable but so did May 15. I know what has to be done, it's just a matter of clearing schedules to get a large block of time. No vacation until it's done I guess. Patrick
"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> writes:
> I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for many of the
> people on this list is extremely important for the project itself in my
> opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even complete newbies pass
> us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL.
The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on attracting newbies
via the Windows port seems to me to be a good reason *not* to delay 7.4
for it. If we slip the schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed,
probably not very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently
if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port?
I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4.
regards, tom lane
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Lane [mailto:tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us] > Sent: 06 May 2003 15:06 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Bruce Momjian; PostgreSQL-development > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > > "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> writes: > > I think we should delay. Win32, whilst not important for > many of the > > people on this list is extremely important for the project > itself in > > my opinion. It is the one major 'feature' that even > complete newbies > > pass us by because we lack it, and head straight for MySQL. > > The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on > attracting newbies via the Windows port seems to me to be a > good reason *not* to delay 7.4 for it. If we slip the > schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed, probably not > very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently > if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port? > > I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4. I agree it should be done properly, but if Bruce is just talking about a small slip to get the job done and nothing excessive then I'd rather see us give him a month or so before we go to beta than see the Win32 port put off for at least another 6 months. No matter what the slip, I have no reason to think Bruce will not do a good quality job, and we will still have however many beta releases are needed to get it right before releasing the final code. Regards, Dave.
On Monday 05 May 2003 2:02 pm, Thomas Kellerer wrote: > Bruce Momjian schrieb: > > I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by > > code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. > > > > I am unsure what we should do: > > > > delay code freeze > > allow Win32 patches during beta > > delay Win32 for 7.5 > > I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well... As another "normal" user I'll throw in my $.02 as well. PostgreSQL is a wonderfully stable database server that runs on top of a number of wonderfully stable OSs. We have several servers running here and see absolutely no point in converting to Windows as we would have to pay more and as far as I can tell I switching PostgreSQL to Windows would not give us any improvements. We are very interested, however, in PITR and replication as it would save us a great deal of the effort we currently spend to roll our own redundancy schemes. Effort toward PITR, replication and other features moves PostgreSQL forward. Win32 porting merely spreads limited resources thinner. So when everyone thinks that there are no significant improvements to be made or features to be added to PostgreSQL then by all means, start porting. Just not before. Cheers, Steve
Patrick Macdonald wrote: > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > If it can't be done by July, then I think it isn't worth waiting for. I > > am working with Jan now, and he did the fork/exec part of the code, so > > let me see what he says tomorrow and I will report back. > > > > Patrick, can you finish PITR by July 1? > > It sounds reasonable but so did May 15. I know what has to be done, > it's just a matter of clearing schedules to get a large block of time. > No vacation until it's done I guess. OK, that's the report from Patrick. Actually, I am more concerned at releasing 7.4 without PITR than I am releasing without WIn32, because PITR is a feature all platforms can use, and it is more significant in moving to large installations. We have Cygwin as a bad workaround for Win32, but we have nothing for PITR. Let's be frank --- how long have we had the PITR patch? August? How long have _I_ had the Win32 patches? January? The sad truth is that these large patches require a deadline to get our plates cleared to work on them. I know that was true of me, and sounds like Patrick is in the same boat. I am talking to Jan regularly and he might drive down from Boston to Philadelphia to help me for a few days on the Win32 port. I just phoned Patrick and he says pushing the beta date to July 1 would make it more likely he will finish, but he is not 100% sure because he has other responsibilities at Red Hat beside PostgreSQL. I am not sure what to recommend right now. I would not recommend pushing beta _past_ July 1. I might have Win32 working for June 1, but surely July 1, and it is possible PITR might not be ready even on July 1. Should we wait until July 1 and be sure we have Win32, and maybe PITR? And if we stick to June 1, will PITR remain dormant like it did after 7.3 and only become active again as we finalized 7.5? Do we need the pressure of a release to get some of these big features completed? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Should we wait until July 1 and be sure we have Win32, and maybe PITR?
> And if we stick to June 1, will PITR remain dormant like it did after
> 7.3 and only become active again as we finalized 7.5? Do we need the
> pressure of a release to get some of these big features completed?
I won't complain too hard if the agreement is to push beta to July 1.
That would make it more likely that we have some frontend support for
the new FE/BE protocol code when we release (right Barry? ;-))
I don't want to see another slip after that, though.
regards, tom lane
Bruce, I think you are doing the right thing by starting the discussion now. But there are at least three ways to deal with the potential of missing the June 1 date. The first way is to move the date a second way is to cut scope, and a third way is to increase resources. I would like to focus on that third way. Is there anything any of us out here lurking on these mail lists can do to help? I know that there are a lot of people who want to see the win32 port in 7.4. Can the work be broken up so that others could contribute? thanks, --Barry Bruce Momjian wrote: > I have gotten some replies so let me chime in now. > > Basically, here is how this happens --- you wait for a slow time to do > this major work, and as the deadline draws near, you realize a slow time > isn't coming and you stop doing anything else but the big project. I > bet Patrick is in the same boat. > > I am not reading much email anymore, not participating in discussions, > not applying patches, not adding other features --- but I underestimated > the fork/exec issues and now I feel behind. I have phoned Jan and he is > going to help me out, but at this point, I don't know if that will be > enough so I am reporting to the group. > > Also, I am reporting problems now, rather than mid-May or June 1. > > As far as past delay disasters, the issues were: > > o waited until the deadline to extend > o extended deadline in too small increments > o didn't set reasonable new deadlines > > So, we have to decide now if we want to delay, and if so, we have to > decide on the new deadline in one month increments (July 1), and we have > to reevalute that on June 1 to determine if July 1 is still > reasonable/desired. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Andrew Dunstan wrote: > >>Amen. >> >>Since I now have some free time on my hands (through no choice of mine >>;-( ) I can devote some of it to the W32 work if someone (Bruce?) would >>like to throw some tasks over the fence at me, to help shorten the cycle. (I >>take it from previous discussion what is basically needed is Windows+cygwin, >>right?) >> >>andrew >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Thomas Kellerer" <spam_eater@gmx.net> >>To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org> >>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:02 PM >>Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list >> >> >> >>>Bruce Momjian schrieb: >>> >>>>I am continuing on the work, but I am now uncertain I can complete by >>>>code freeze in Mid-May, or even by the end of May. >>>> >>>>I am unsure what we should do: >>>> >>>>delay code freeze >>>>allow Win32 patches during beta >>>>delay Win32 for 7.5 >>>> >>> >>>I'm just a "normal" user, but I'd like to throw in my to 2cents as well. >> >>As >> >>>much as I appreciate all the work you are doing, I think that decent Win32 >>>version will give PostgreSQL big momentum especially over MySQL. I'm >>>happily running the Peer-Direct version (although not in a >>>business-critical environment) and I would just love to see an "official" >>>win32 version. >>> >>>So from my point of view delaying Win32 for 7.5 would really be a bad >> >>choice. >> >>>Cheers >>>Thomas >>> >>> >>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org >> >> >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command >> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) >> > >
On Tue, 2003-05-06 at 10:14, Dave Page wrote: > No matter what the slip, I have no reason to think Bruce will not do a > good quality job, and we will still have however many beta releases are > needed to get it right before releasing the final code. And, we don't have to say we fully support win32 in 7.4, we can call it experimental or whatever. I think the important thing is to get it in so that people can start working with it, evaluating, testing and refining it. Perhaps we don't announce full support until 7.5.
"Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net> writes:
> And, we don't have to say we fully support win32 in 7.4, we can call it
> experimental or whatever.
That might be a wise move in any case. Management of expectations and
all that ;-)
regards, tom lane
Apart from the already known issue of corruption on power loss (which ought to be soluble - presumably the commercial heavyweights don't suffer from this problem), I can't see any reason to have low expectations of the w32 port. My experience, and apparently that of others, running the PeerDirect port, has been entirely painfree. I understand people's feelings about this - I'm a Unix kinda guy myself, and will choose some flavor of it every time if given the choice. Often, I don't have a choice, for a variety of reasons, some good and some not. That's why the W32 port is important. andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> To: "Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net> Cc: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>; "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > "Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net> writes: > > And, we don't have to say we fully support win32 in 7.4, we can call it > > experimental or whatever. > > That might be a wise move in any case. Management of expectations and > all that ;-) > > regards, tom lane >
Andrew Dunstan wrote: > Apart from the already known issue of corruption on power loss (which ought > to be soluble - presumably the commercial heavyweights don't suffer from > this problem), I can't see any reason to have low expectations of the w32 > port. Actually, it has been solved by SRA/Tatsuo. Seems Win32 commit() doesn't actually sync all files during a checkpoint, only the _open_ files. Tatsuo's solution was to remember all files opened since the last sync() and open/fsync each one of them to simulate sync(). I assume I will need some of his code, but I am not there yet. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Tom Lane wrote: > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > > Should we wait until July 1 and be sure we have Win32, and maybe PITR? > > And if we stick to June 1, will PITR remain dormant like it did after > > 7.3 and only become active again as we finalized 7.5? Do we need the > > pressure of a release to get some of these big features completed? > > I won't complain too hard if the agreement is to push beta to July 1. > That would make it more likely that we have some frontend support for > the new FE/BE protocol code when we release (right Barry? ;-)) > > I don't want to see another slip after that, though. I am waiting to talk to Jan in a few hours to get his opinion on the timeframe for Win32. I would like to have a final decision on the beta date by this Friday. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
> The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on attracting newbies > via the Windows port seems to me to be a good reason *not* to delay 7.4 > for it. If we slip the schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed, > probably not very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently > if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port? > > I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4. It's a bit embarassing for those of us who have been saying '7.4 will have win32 and pitr' :) Chris
> I think you are doing the right thing by starting the discussion now. > But there are at least three ways to deal with the potential of missing > the June 1 date. The first way is to move the date a second way is to > cut scope, and a third way is to increase resources. I would like to > focus on that third way. Is there anything any of us out here lurking > on these mail lists can do to help? I know that there are a lot of > people who want to see the win32 port in 7.4. Can the work be broken up > so that others could contribute? Well, I can volunteer build testing and runtime testing on our windows machines here, but that's really about it... Chris
Tom, I plan to clear some time very soon to work on moving jdbc to the version 3 protocol. What is the status of the version 3 protocol changes, are you done? And yes an extra couple of weeks would ensure that I get more of the version 3 protocol functionality into the jdbc driver. thanks, --Barry Tom Lane wrote: > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > >>Should we wait until July 1 and be sure we have Win32, and maybe PITR? >>And if we stick to June 1, will PITR remain dormant like it did after >>7.3 and only become active again as we finalized 7.5? Do we need the >>pressure of a release to get some of these big features completed? > > > I won't complain too hard if the agreement is to push beta to July 1. > That would make it more likely that we have some frontend support for > the new FE/BE protocol code when we release (right Barry? ;-)) > > I don't want to see another slip after that, though. > > regards, tom lane > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >
On Tue, 2003-05-06 at 18:25, Andrew Dunstan wrote: > Apart from the already known issue of corruption on power loss (which ought > to be soluble - presumably the commercial heavyweights don't suffer from > this problem), I can't see any reason to have low expectations of the w32 > port. > > My experience, and apparently that of others, running the PeerDirect port, > has been entirely painfree. I don't have any long term "low expectations" of the win32 port, just transient ones. That is, it is a fairly radical port, more so than moving between unix environments. Once the win32 proves itself for a while and we have established a history of stability and lack of data corruption then my confidence in the win32 port will be as high as any other database that runs on win32 (SQL Server, etc...). To assume that we will nail all of this on the first pass is hubris.
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on attracting newbies > > via the Windows port seems to me to be a good reason *not* to delay 7.4 > > for it. If we slip the schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed, > > probably not very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently > > if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port? > > > > I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4. > > It's a bit embarassing for those of us who have been saying '7.4 will have > win32 and pitr' :) Jan is coming here tomorrow for 2-3 days, so I will know very soon how do-able Win32 is for June 1. Of course, PITR is still unlikely by June 1. Let me see what Jan finds tomorrow and I will report back. The majority of the feedback so far seems to be to postpone for July 1. This gives us more time for Win32 testing, and time for PITR. Is there anyone who wants to argue for staying with the June 1 beta date? If no, we can just assume July 1 for beta. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes:
> I plan to clear some time very soon to work on moving jdbc to the
> version 3 protocol. What is the status of the version 3 protocol
> changes, are you done?
I have implemented everything I wanted to do at the protocol level
except for fixing the handling of binary values, which is something
I hope to get done in the next few days. It's not too soon to start
working on JDBC's support, if you have free time now. There are lots
of loose ends (for instance, *every* backend error currently returns
the same "XX000" SQLSTATE code) but I do not think there are any
showstoppers for frontend development.
> And yes an extra couple of weeks would ensure that I get more of the
> version 3 protocol functionality into the jdbc driver.
Check. The wind seems to be blowing towards a July 1 beta date.
regards, tom lane
"Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net> writes:
> I don't have any long term "low expectations" of the win32 port, just
> transient ones. That is, it is a fairly radical port, more so than
> moving between unix environments. ... To assume that
> we will nail all of this on the first pass is hubris.
Yup, exzackle. After a release or two we might think that the win32 port
is production ready (meaning as-reliable-as-you-think-the-platform-is).
It's not rational to think that the first release will be as stable on
win32 as our longtime Unix ports are --- and we'd be remiss if we don't
make that clear to users.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes: > > I plan to clear some time very soon to work on moving jdbc to the > > version 3 protocol. What is the status of the version 3 protocol > > changes, are you done? > > I have implemented everything I wanted to do at the protocol level > except for fixing the handling of binary values, which is something > I hope to get done in the next few days. It's not too soon to start > working on JDBC's support, if you have free time now. There are lots > of loose ends (for instance, *every* backend error currently returns > the same "XX000" SQLSTATE code) but I do not think there are any > showstoppers for frontend development. > > > And yes an extra couple of weeks would ensure that I get more of the > > version 3 protocol functionality into the jdbc driver. > > Check. The wind seems to be blowing towards a July 1 beta date. Tom, I am seeing "IN ... func..." in the server logs for every LOG: message. Is that planned behavior? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Tom, I am seeing "IN ... func..." in the server logs for every LOG:
> message. Is that planned behavior?
Only transient. As I was telling you this afternoon, I'm focusing
on getting the on-the-wire protocol behavior frozen. We need to think
about how much of the new, richer, error information should be logged
in the server log --- and what configuration options we should offer
to control that. But I don't want to think about it quite yet.
regards, tom lane
> -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Dunstan [mailto:andrew@dunslane.net] > Sent: 06 May 2003 23:25 > To: PostgreSQL-development > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 7.4 features list > > > Apart from the already known issue of corruption on power > loss (which ought to be soluble - presumably the commercial > heavyweights don't suffer from this problem), I can't see any > reason to have low expectations of the w32 port. I believe Tatsuo has resolved that in the SRA Win32 port. Regards, Dave.
On Tue, 2003-05-06 at 22:54, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > > The fact that people are putting so much emphasis on attracting newbies > > > via the Windows port seems to me to be a good reason *not* to delay 7.4 > > > for it. If we slip the schedule for it, what we will have is a rushed, > > > probably not very solid port. How many newbies will we lose permanently > > > if their first exposure to Postgres is a buggy Windows port? > > > > > > I'd far rather see it done right for 7.5 than done hurriedly for 7.4. > > > > It's a bit embarassing for those of us who have been saying '7.4 will have > > win32 and pitr' :) > > Jan is coming here tomorrow for 2-3 days, so I will know very soon how > do-able Win32 is for June 1. Of course, PITR is still unlikely by June 1. > > Let me see what Jan finds tomorrow and I will report back. The majority > of the feedback so far seems to be to postpone for July 1. This gives > us more time for Win32 testing, and time for PITR. > > Is there anyone who wants to argue for staying with the June 1 beta > date? If no, we can just assume July 1 for beta. > Unless you and patrick both decide that even July 1 isn't doable, I think we're all willing to wait an extra month. I'd like to bring up the question of when do folks see a 7.3.3 release? Sometime in May? At feature freeze? Robert Treat
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> I'd like to bring up the question of when do folks see a 7.3.3
> release?
It should be soon. We can't conveniently do it until Marc gets home
from fixing broken servers in Panama --- but I'd vote for rolling out
7.3.3 as soon as he is back. It's been too long since 7.3.2 and we've
accumulated quite a number of bug fixes in that branch.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > [...] > months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that > they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still > have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again? I have to agree on this. Things like the Win32 port tend to take longer and longer. With a release schedule every 3-6 months they'll just get released whenever they're done. To hold back other improvements because of them is not right. Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
Jan Wieck wrote: > Tom Lane wrote: > > [...] > > months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that > > they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still > > have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again? > > I have to agree on this. Things like the Win32 port tend to take longer > and longer. With a release schedule every 3-6 months they'll just get > released whenever they're done. To hold back other improvements because > of them is not right. I have been with Jan for two days now and I can report the Win32 status. Jan is working on getting fork/exec to work in our code. He should be done next week. He is trying to do it as cleanly as possible. Here is my Win32 TODO list:*file path separators*root directory*cp, rm*handle \r in COPY*rename and unlink atomicityfork/execcompatibilitydefinesspinlock changesDWORD in help.cinitdbsignalsmakefiles and build environmentruntimeenvironmentcancel key handlingUNKNOWN -handle config file changes that happen before backend starts signalsxcopyvs cpsync vs commit() SRA Jan feels that the next step is to decide on a build environment. I think we had discussed _not_ using the MS project files, but instead using gmake and perhaps the MingW or Visual C command line compiler. As far as timeframe, Jan thinks July 1 is going to be a difficult deadline. However, if most of the code changes are done by then, we can play with making the Win32 environment and binaries during beta. Of course, we can probably get the massive changes done by June 1 too. So, when do we want beta? Seems most want July 1 because Win32 will be farther along and PITR has a chance of making it. However, none of those are certain. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
> *file path separators The Windows standard file API does take forward slashes and backslashes as directory separators. Are you sure we need to do anything here ? Andreas
Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD wrote: > > > *file path separators > > The Windows standard file API does take forward slashes and backslashes as > directory separators. Are you sure we need to do anything here ? Yes, we do because we often compare chars to '/' in our code --- that stuff is all done anyway (anything with a '*'). -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 13:28, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Here is my Win32 TODO list: > initdb > > As far as timeframe, Jan thinks July 1 is going to be a difficult > deadline. However, if most of the code changes are done by then, we can > play with making the Win32 environment and binaries during beta. Of > course, we can probably get the massive changes done by June 1 too. > has a decision been reached on the other command line tools like pg_ctl, pg_config, createlang, etc... ? > So, when do we want beta? Seems most want July 1 because Win32 will be > farther along and PITR has a chance of making it. However, none of > those are certain. > ugh... I'd really like to see win32 in the next release if we're going to do it, but it is a slippery slope. Robert Treat
On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 15:37:37 -0400, Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > ugh... I'd really like to see win32 in the next release if we're going > to do it, but it is a slippery slope. If the beta is July 1, the people working on both PITR and WIN32 will work hard on those projects trying to make the deadline. This should result in a lot getting done where as if the pressure was removed things might happen more slowly. If they just miss they should be close enough that a quick 7.5 release mainly for WIN32 or PITR might really be doable. Beta could probably start as soon as 7.4 was released and a 7.5 release could follow in another month or two.
OK, agreed. Beta will be July 1; feature freeze June 16. You folks need to keep on top of the Win32 and PITR folks to make sure they keep working. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 15:37:37 -0400, > Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > ugh... I'd really like to see win32 in the next release if we're going > > to do it, but it is a slippery slope. > > If the beta is July 1, the people working on both PITR and WIN32 will > work hard on those projects trying to make the deadline. This should > result in a lot getting done where as if the pressure was removed > things might happen more slowly. If they just miss they should be close > enough that a quick 7.5 release mainly for WIN32 or PITR might really > be doable. Beta could probably start as soon as 7.4 was released and > a 7.5 release could follow in another month or two. > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> OK, agreed. Beta will be July 1; feature freeze June 16.
Done deal. But no more slips.
regards, tom lane
Bruce Momjian wrote: > OK, agreed. Beta will be July 1; feature freeze June 16. You folks One question -- why the feature freeze on June 16th instead of July 1st? Last September 1st, we did feature freeze and started beta on the same day, didn't we? Joe
Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> writes:
> One question -- why the feature freeze on June 16th instead of July 1st?
We could hardly call it "beta" if there's not a fix-bugs-instead-of-
invent-features period beforehand. I'd be willing to cut a "barely
alpha" release on June 16th ... but to me "beta" means "we have some
reason to think this might work, rather than eat your data". The
"this will likely eat your data" phase is alpha testing ...
regards, tom lane
As a postgresql user, and as someone who develops apps with postgresql, but does not do development FOR postgresql, I feel compelled to chime in here and agree. While I understand that there is a strong opinion that a win32 port will bring more attention to postgresql, and that this is a good thing, I would hate to see a release get delayed because of the port. I have several production systems using postgresql up and running now. One of these systems has been running for over a year and a half, with no downtime other than scheduled downtime for upgrades, and one hardware failure. In spite of this, I still have to fight constant political battles to keep this application on postgresql. Upper managers who have never heard of postgresql constantly comment about how maybe it would be better if we just used sybase or oracle, etc. Each new feature that gets released for postgresql gives me a little more ammunition to use in these discussions. Currently, the too biggest areas of contention are replication and just the "I've never heard of this 'postgres'" factor. While I know that replication is not coming for 7.4, I think that PITR would help. At least it would facilitate faster / easier recovery after a crash... not that I've ever had a crash. I have to think I'm not the only person in this sort of situation. While the win32 port may be very beneficial, I would hate to see a situation where the current installed base had to wait for a feature they needed because of the win32 port. Please, this is not meant to disparage the hard work of the win32 porters at all. I understand that bringing a wider user base into the fold can in the long term result in more resources to help continue to improve postgresql. I'm just saying that I would not want to see new features for the existing ports of postgresql put on hold because of a desire to have win32 in the next release, if it came down to that situation. I'd like to thank everyone involved in the postgresql project for creating such a fantastic tool! Brian Knox brian@mail.pantalaimon.net On Thu, 8 May 2003, Jan Wieck wrote: > Tom Lane wrote: > > [...] > > months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that > > they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still > > have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again? > > I have to agree on this. Things like the Win32 port tend to take longer > and longer. With a release schedule every 3-6 months they'll just get > released whenever they're done. To hold back other improvements because > of them is not right. > > > Jan > > -- > #======================================================================# > # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # > # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # > #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com # > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) >
The delay is for Win32 _and_ PITR, hopefully both for 7.4. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian wrote: > As a postgresql user, and as someone who develops apps with postgresql, > but does not do development FOR postgresql, I feel compelled to chime in > here and agree. > > While I understand that there is a strong opinion that a win32 port will > bring more attention to postgresql, and that this is a good thing, I would > hate to see a release get delayed because of the port. > > I have several production systems using postgresql up and running now. > One of these systems has been running for over a year and a half, with no > downtime other than scheduled downtime for upgrades, and one hardware > failure. In spite of this, I still have to fight constant political > battles to keep this application on postgresql. Upper managers who have > never heard of postgresql constantly comment about how maybe it would be > better if we just used sybase or oracle, etc. > > Each new feature that gets released for postgresql gives me a little more > ammunition to use in these discussions. Currently, the too biggest areas > of contention are replication and just the "I've never heard of this > 'postgres'" factor. > > While I know that replication is not coming for 7.4, I think that PITR > would help. At least it would facilitate faster / easier recovery after a > crash... not that I've ever had a crash. > > I have to think I'm not the only person in this sort of situation. While > the win32 port may be very beneficial, I would hate to see a situation > where the current installed base had to wait for a feature they needed > because of the win32 port. > > Please, this is not meant to disparage the hard work of the win32 porters > at all. I understand that bringing a wider user base into the fold can in > the long term result in more resources to help continue to improve > postgresql. I'm just saying that I would not want to see new features for > the existing ports of postgresql put on hold because of a desire to have > win32 in the next release, if it came down to that situation. > > I'd like to thank everyone involved in the postgresql project for creating > such a fantastic tool! > > Brian Knox > brian@mail.pantalaimon.net > > > On Thu, 8 May 2003, Jan Wieck wrote: > > > Tom Lane wrote: > > > [...] > > > months ago, and they're not done. That gives me no confidence that > > > they'll meet the next deadline we set. If September comes and we still > > > have no working Win32 port, will you vote to delay again? > > > > I have to agree on this. Things like the Win32 port tend to take longer > > and longer. With a release schedule every 3-6 months they'll just get > > released whenever they're done. To hold back other improvements because > > of them is not right. > > > > > > Jan > > > > -- > > #======================================================================# > > # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # > > # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # > > #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com # > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073