Thread: Packaging 7.1.1
I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. I will do all those now for 7.1.1. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Please,
apply a little patch:
--- src/test/locale/test-ctype.c Tue Sep 1 08:40:33 1998
+++ /u/megera/app/locale/test/test-ctype.c Fri Sep 15 19:12:06 2000
@@ -39,7 +39,7 @@voiddescribe_char(int c){
- char cp = c,
+ unsigned char cp = c, up = toupper(c), lo =
tolower(c);
Regards,
Oleg
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly.
> I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt.
> I will do all those now for 7.1.1.
>
>
Regards, Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
OK, Oleg, I am applying this on your word only. I don't understand its
purpose, but you sent it with a 7.1.1 subject so I assume you want it in
there. This is not a critical area of our code.
> Please,
>
> apply a little patch:
>
> --- src/test/locale/test-ctype.c Tue Sep 1 08:40:33 1998
> +++ /u/megera/app/locale/test/test-ctype.c Fri Sep 15 19:12:06 2000
> @@ -39,7 +39,7 @@
> void
> describe_char(int c)
> {
> - char cp = c,
> + unsigned char cp = c,
> up = toupper(c),
> lo = tolower(c);
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Oleg
>
> On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly.
> > I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt.
> > I will do all those now for 7.1.1.
> >
> >
>
> Regards,
> Oleg
> _____________________________________________________________
> Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
>
>
-- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610)
853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill,
Pennsylvania19026
oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were branching 7.1.1) Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). -rchit -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:16 AM To: PostgreSQL-development Subject: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1 I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. I will do all those now for 7.1.1. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026 ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Not sure on their status. Are they listed on the outstanding patches page at the bottom of the developers page? Probably too late for 7.1.1 now. [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init > scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps > should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were > branching 7.1.1) > > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). > > -rchit > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:16 AM > To: PostgreSQL-development > Subject: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1 > > > I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. > I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. > I will do all those now for 7.1.1. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Rachit Siamwalla <rachit@ensim.com> writes: > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). Lamar Owen and I. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc.
I am running Postgresql 7.1 on a dedicated Redhat 7.0 box with 512meg ram and an IDE hard drive. All day long queries that usually seem to execute instantaneously have been taking up to 10 second to run! I generally have about 6 postmasters running, utilizing anywhere from 1% to 96% CPU utilization. Another server running Apache and PHP is performing all the queries. I am not using persistant connections. I vaccum daily, usually has little to no impact on the server. The database is roughly 60 megs, there are no usually wide tables... the is one table (user tracking) that has about 200,000 rows. It is indexed. We are running a proprietary e-commerce package. Right now I am getting roughly one query per second. Any input would be helpful! If you need additional info let me know. BTW, Thanks to Lamar for some great tips today! Here is the status from pg_ctl: /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster '-d2' '-N' '48' '-B' '10000' '-i' '-D' '/usr/local/pgsql/data' Here is a sample from the log: DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: StartTransactionCommand DEBUG: query: SELECT sale_price FROM ec_sale_prices WHERE sale_begins <= CURRENT_TIMESTAMP AND sale_ends >= CURRENT_TIMESTAMP AND p roduct_id = 137 DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: proc_exit(0) DEBUG: shmem_exit(0) DEBUG: exit(0) /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: reaping dead processes... /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: CleanupProc: pid 958 exited with status 0 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling reading 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling reading 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling writing 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: BackendStartup: pid 959 user postgres db pa_commerce socket 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster child[959]: starting with (postgres -d2 -v131072 -p pa_commerce ) FindExec: found "/usr/local/pgsql/bin/postgres" using argv[0] DEBUG: connection: host=216.239.233.44 user=postgres database=pa_commerce DEBUG: InitPostgres DEBUG: StartTransactionCommand DEBUG: query: SELECT web_user_id FROM pa_web_users WHERE session_id = '34978ae91facc5fc9abb8e21db609b4c' DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: StartTransactionCommand DEBUG: query: SELECT web_user_id FROM pa_partner_user_map WHERE web_user_id = 221256 DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: StartTransactionCommand DEBUG: query: UPDATE pa_partner_user_map SET last_visited = CURRENT_TIMESTAMP, partner_id = 'OmdxViUZtwA-*HFh50XeaHBc70n42b4iXA' WH ERE web_user_id = 221256 DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: StartTransactionCommand DEBUG: query: SELECT order_id FROM pa_orders WHERE web_user_id = 221256 AND order_state = 'in_basket' DEBUG: ProcessQuery DEBUG: CommitTransactionCommand DEBUG: proc_exit(0) DEBUG: shmem_exit(0) DEBUG: exit(0) /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling reading 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling reading 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: ServerLoop: handling writing 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: BackendStartup: pid 960 user postgres db pa_commerce socket 5 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: reaping dead processes... /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster: CleanupProc: pid 959 exited with status 0 /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster child[960]: starting with (postgres -d2 -v131072 -p pa_commerce ) FindExec: found "/usr/local/pgsql/bin/postgres" using argv[0] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01
Rachit Siamwalla wrote: > oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init > scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps > should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were > branching 7.1.1) > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). That would be me. Before building and releasing 7.1.1 RPMs I will be reviewing the various bugs and changes planned for the 7.1.1 RPM. As to why the RPM init script is different from the one packaged in the main source tree -- I can make assumptions in the RPM set that the version in the source tree cannot. As to how the RPMs are built -- to answer that question sanely requires me to know how much experience you have with the whole RPM paradigm. 'How is the RPM built?' is a multifaceted question. The obvious simple answer is that I maintain:1.) A set of patches to make certain portions of the source tree 'behave' in the differentenvironment of the RPMset;2.) The initscript;3.) Any other ancilliary scripts and files;4.) A README.rpm-distdocument that tries to adequately document both the differences between the RPM build and the WHY of the differences, as well as useful RPM environment operations (like, using syslog, upgrading, getting postmaster to start at OS boot, etc);5.) The spec file that throws it all together. This is not a trivial undertaking in apackage of this size. I then download and build on as many different canonical distributions as I can -- currently I am able to build on Red Hat 6.2, 7.0, and 7.1 on my personal hardware. Occasionally I receive opportunity from certain commercial enterprises such as Great Bridge and PostgreSQL Inc to build on other distributions. I test the build by installing the resulting packages and running the regression tests. Once the build passes these tests, I upload to the postgresql.org ftp server and make a release announcement. I am also responsible for maintaining the RPM download area on the ftp site. You'll notice I said 'canonical' distributions above. That simply means that the machine is as stock 'out of the box' as practical -- that is, everything (except select few programs) on these boxen are installed by RPM; only official Red Hat released RPMs are used (except in unusual circumstances involving software that will not alter the build -- for example, installing a newer non-RedHat version of the Dia diagramming package is OK -- installing Python 2.1 on the box that has Python 1.5.2 installed is not, as that alters the PostgreSQL build). The RPM as uploaded is built to as close to out-of-the-box pristine as is possible. Only the standard released 'official to that release' compiler is used -- and only the standard official kernel is used as well. For a time I built on Mandrake for RedHat consumption -- no more. Nonstandard RPM building systems are worse than useless. Which is not to say that Mandrake is useless! By no means is Mandrake useless -- unless you are building Red Hat RPMs -- and Red Hat is useless if you're trying to build Mandrake or SuSE RPMs, for that matter. But I would be foolish to use 'Lamar Owen's Super Special RPM Blend Distro 0.1.2' to build for public consumption! :-) I _do_ attempt to make the _source_ RPM compatible with as many distributions as possible -- however, since I have limited resources (as a volunteer RPM maintainer) I am limited as to the amount of testing said build will get on other distributions, architectures, or systems. And, while I understand people's desire to immediately upgrade to the newest version, realize that I do this as a side interest -- I have a regular, full-time job as a broadcast engineer/webmaster/sysadmin/Technical Director which occasionally prevents me from making timely RPM releases. This happened during the early part of the 7.1 beta cycle -- but I believe I was pretty much on the ball for the Release Candidates and the final release. I am working towards a more open RPM distribution -- I would dearly love to more fully document the process and put everything into CVS -- once I figure out how I want to represent things such as the spec file in a CVS form. It makes no sense to maintain a changelog, for instance, in the spec file in CVS when CVS does a better job of changelogs -- I will need to write a tool to generate a real spec file from a CVS spec-source file that would add version numbers, changelog entries, etc to the result before building the RPM. IOW, I need to rethink the process -- and then go through the motions of putting my long RPM history into CVS one version at a time so that version history information isn't lost. As to why all these files aren't part of the source tree, well, unless there was a large cry for it to happen, I don't believe it should. PostgreSQL is very platform-agnostic -- and I like that. Including the RPM stuff as part of the Official Tarball (TM) would, IMHO, slant that agnostic stance in a negative way. But maybe I'm too sensitive to that. I'm not opposed to doing that if that is the consensus of the core group -- and that would be a sneaky way to get the stuff into CVS :-). But if the core group isn't thrilled with the idea (and my instinct says they're not likely to be), I am opposed to the idea -- not to keep the stuff to myself, but to not hinder the platform-neutral stance. IMHO, of course. Of course, there are many projects that DO include all the files necessary to build RPMs from their Official Tarball (TM). Bruce, should portions of that answer be part of the linux FAQ? I don't want to have to write that too many times :-). -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
!! I haven't ran VACUUM ANALYZE since last night. Just ran it - performance has improved significantly. I think I am going to have to run it hourly during this high traffic time. Postmasters are still utilizing about 100% of the CPU. Is this normal? I am considering increasing the shmmax again. Thanks for the help Mitch! -r At 09:11 PM 5/3/01 -0400, Mitch Vincent wrote: > > persistant connections. I vaccum daily, usually has little to no impact >on > > You VACUUM ANALYZE too, don't you? > >-Mitch > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01
Here is some output from top...
9:20pm up 40 min, 1 user, load average: 3.77, 3.12, 3.74
41 processes: 36 sleeping, 5 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 99.2% user, 0.7% system, 0.0% nice, 0.0% idle
Mem: 515664K av, 303712K used, 211952K free, 37476K shrd, 39552K buff
Swap: 514068K av, 0K used, 514068K free 158980K cached
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
1657 postgres 20 0 6820 6820 5712 R 33.4 1.3 0:12 postmaster
1671 postgres 20 0 6576 6576 5468 R 33.4 1.2 0:08 postmaster
1650 postgres 19 0 6952 6952 5848 R 32.6 1.3 0:16 postmaster
1444 postgres 0 0 1044 1044 844 R 0.5 0.2 0:02 top
1 root 0 0 540 540 476 S 0.0 0.1 0:06 init
2 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:02 kflushd
3 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:04 kupdate
4 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 kpiod
5 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 kswapd
6 root -20 -20 0 0 0 SW< 0.0 0.0 0:00 mdrecoveryd
373 root 0 0 836 836 700 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 syslogd
383 root 0 0 852 852 472 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 klogd
398 rpc 0 0 580 580 492 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 portmap
414 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 lockd
415 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 rpciod
425 rpcuser 0 0 832 832 720 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 rpc.statd
477 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd
484 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd
485 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd
488 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd
489 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd
496 daemon 0 0 580 580 504 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 atd
511 root 0 0 1040 1040 828 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 xinetd
520 root 0 0 1196 1196 1060 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 sshd
533 root 0 0 2008 2008 1652 R 0.0 0.3 0:00 sshd
542 lp 0 0 1112 1112 948 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 lpd
579 root 0 0 512 512 448 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 gpm
594 root 0 0 720 720 616 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 crond
679 xfs 0 0 4496 4496 808 S 0.0 0.8 0:00 xfs
704 ryan 0 0 1328 1328 1036 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash
752 postgres 0 0 2492 2492 2360 S 0.0 0.4 0:01 postmaster
778 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
779 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
780 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
781 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
782 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
783 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty
1279 root 0 0 1060 1060 856 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 su
1280 root 0 0 1388 1388 1076 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash
1369 root 0 0 1020 1020 828 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 su
1370 postgres 0 0 1308 1308 1028 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01
Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: > > Rachit Siamwalla <rachit@ensim.com> writes: > > > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). > > Lamar Owen and I. Egads! I forgot to mention Trond! My apologies! (I'm being serious...) Trond, of Red Hat; Reinhard Max, of SuSE; and Thomas Lockhart, of PostgreSQL Inc (:-)) have all been major contributors to the RPM distribution. Karl DeBisschop, Mike Mascari, and many others have provided fixes and ideas as well. Sorry guys -- I got caught up in the process and forgot the people! :-( -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
I hope you have those postmasters listening on different ports. > Here is some output from top... > > 9:20pm up 40 min, 1 user, load average: 3.77, 3.12, 3.74 > 41 processes: 36 sleeping, 5 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped > CPU states: 99.2% user, 0.7% system, 0.0% nice, 0.0% idle > Mem: 515664K av, 303712K used, 211952K free, 37476K shrd, 39552K buff > Swap: 514068K av, 0K used, 514068K free 158980K cached > > PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND > 1657 postgres 20 0 6820 6820 5712 R 33.4 1.3 0:12 postmaster > 1671 postgres 20 0 6576 6576 5468 R 33.4 1.2 0:08 postmaster > 1650 postgres 19 0 6952 6952 5848 R 32.6 1.3 0:16 postmaster > 1444 postgres 0 0 1044 1044 844 R 0.5 0.2 0:02 top > 1 root 0 0 540 540 476 S 0.0 0.1 0:06 init > 2 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:02 kflushd > 3 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:04 kupdate > 4 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 kpiod > 5 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 kswapd > 6 root -20 -20 0 0 0 SW< 0.0 0.0 0:00 mdrecoveryd > 373 root 0 0 836 836 700 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 syslogd > 383 root 0 0 852 852 472 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 klogd > 398 rpc 0 0 580 580 492 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 portmap > 414 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 lockd > 415 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0.0 0.0 0:00 rpciod > 425 rpcuser 0 0 832 832 720 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 rpc.statd > 477 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd > 484 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd > 485 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd > 488 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd > 489 nobody 0 0 720 720 612 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 identd > 496 daemon 0 0 580 580 504 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 atd > 511 root 0 0 1040 1040 828 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 xinetd > 520 root 0 0 1196 1196 1060 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 sshd > 533 root 0 0 2008 2008 1652 R 0.0 0.3 0:00 sshd > 542 lp 0 0 1112 1112 948 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 lpd > 579 root 0 0 512 512 448 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 gpm > 594 root 0 0 720 720 616 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 crond > 679 xfs 0 0 4496 4496 808 S 0.0 0.8 0:00 xfs > 704 ryan 0 0 1328 1328 1036 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash > 752 postgres 0 0 2492 2492 2360 S 0.0 0.4 0:01 postmaster > 778 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 779 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 780 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 781 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 782 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 783 root 0 0 444 444 380 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 mingetty > 1279 root 0 0 1060 1060 856 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 su > 1280 root 0 0 1388 1388 1076 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash > 1369 root 0 0 1020 1020 828 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 su > 1370 postgres 0 0 1308 1308 1028 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 bash > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Ryan Mahoney wrote: > Any input would be helpful! If you need additional info let me know. > BTW, Thanks to Lamar for some great tips today! You're more than welcome. I forgot a basic tip, which leads to a question: How often are you running VACUUM ANALYZE? If this were PostgreSQL 7.0.3, we could ask Alfred about his lazy vacuum patches, as they work as well for Red Hat 7 as they do for FreeBSD. Personally, I look forward to the following note being placed into the docs: VACUUM: deprecated. And the feature that makes that note possible. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Thanks a lot for your total and complete description of the process. (i should have checked out the sprm first before asking). I empathize with what you said about packaging not being a simple task, i have been through the agony. About putting your stuff into the postgres tree, i believe it would be a "good" thing other than bad to include it in pgsq. It can be put into the contrib directory (because it isn't part of the "core" portable stuff). This solution was done for the portable openssh cvs tree. not only redhat packaging stuff was included, but the solaris pkg mechanism was also in there (and i also believe there were some others). It usually isn't a lot of files (ie. the spec file and maybe the initscript). Of course its up to the gods of the pgsql tree what they want to do with it, so i'm just going to raise this suggestion and shut up. anyways, getting back to the what brought me to ask about this, can you add the fixes to these two small problems in your initscripts? 1. `pidof` should be `pidof -s` (2 instances) 2. restart) should be stop; sleep x; start ideally, stop should actually wait till postgres fully stops. The sleep is just a temporary fix. I have a more thorough email i sent earlier, i can resend it to you if you want. -rchit
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes: > Ryan Mahoney wrote: > > Any input would be helpful! If you need additional info let me know. > > > BTW, Thanks to Lamar for some great tips today! > > You're more than welcome. > > I forgot a basic tip, which leads to a question: > How often are you running VACUUM ANALYZE? > > If this were PostgreSQL 7.0.3, we could ask Alfred about his lazy vacuum > patches, as they work as well for Red Hat 7 as they do for FreeBSD. Postgresql 7.0.3 from Red Hat Linux 7.1 should work just fine on Red Hat Linux 7. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc.
Rachit Siamwalla wrote: > Thanks a lot for your total and complete description of the process. (i > should have checked out the sprm first before asking). I empathize with > what you said about packaging not being a simple task, i have been through > the agony. Empathize is appropriate if you've been there. But, it's better than going six months to a year for a newer RPM -- the release lag was one ofthe two triggers that caused me to go do this -- the other was the upgrading issue. I won't say any more about that right now --too tired. > About putting your stuff into the postgres tree, i believe it would be a > "good" thing other than bad to include it in pgsq. It can be put into the > contrib directory (because it isn't part of the "core" portable stuff). This We'll see what transpires. > I have a more thorough email i sent earlier, i can resend it to you if you > want. Hmmm.. lessee... I have Bruce's reply, which includes your message in its entirety, I think. But, just to be safe, resend directly to me, and add the [HACKERS] part to the subject (so it will go to the correct mail folder, otherwise I might miss it). I have a list of messages in an 'RPMS for 7.1' subfolder of my mail folder 'Postgres' that I work through for each release. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Thanks to input Bruce M., figured out my performance problems - had to do with a few QUERIES FROM HELL! After running EXPLAIN a few times I fine tuned some of the worst ones, mostly over use of sub queries. Still combing through my query log. Getting there... -r --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.251 / Virus Database: 124 - Release Date: 4/26/01
Thus spake Ryan Mahoney
> !! I haven't ran VACUUM ANALYZE since last night. Just ran it -
> performance has improved significantly. I think I am going to have to run
> it hourly during this high traffic time. Postmasters are still utilizing
> about 100% of the CPU. Is this normal? I am considering increasing the
> shmmax again.
Although it isn't supposed to be necessary, I find that I have to dump and
reload once in a while to keep performance hight.
--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@{druid|vex}.net> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
Tom Lane wrote: > Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone > else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(. My wife appreciates the sentiment :-). As it stands now, better documentation distributed in the source RPM would help greatly. Everything necessary to do the build and maintain the package is in the source RPM as it stands now -- evidenced by the Linux distributors being able to take our source RPM, massage it to fit their particular system, and run with it. And I have a scad of history available in specfile form.... > If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be > in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just > where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a > separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for > it don't end up pulling/downloading it. Not counting the JDBC jars, it's a hundred K or so uncompressed. The spec file is around 30k -- a small amount of code. contrib/rpm-dist? -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Rachit Siamwalla wrote: > 1. `pidof` should be `pidof -s` (2 instances) > 2. restart) should be stop; sleep x; start > ideally, stop should actually wait till postgres fully stops. The sleep is > just a temporary fix. > Perhaps a naive question, but why not use the pg_ctl for starting and stopping? It has a -w option to have it wait for the stop/start/restart to complete. -rocco
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:
> As to why all these files aren't part of the source tree, well, unless
> there was a large cry for it to happen, I don't believe it should.
> PostgreSQL is very platform-agnostic -- and I like that. Including the
> RPM stuff as part of the Official Tarball (TM) would, IMHO, slant that
> agnostic stance in a negative way.
Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone
else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(.
If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be
in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just
where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a
separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for
it don't end up pulling/downloading it.
regards, tom lane
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:
> contrib/rpm-dist?
Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM
packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large
proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution.
So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for
putting it in the main tree.
Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote: > Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM > packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large > proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. > So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for > putting it in the main tree. > Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. Let's see where the rest of core and hackers weighs in.... -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Lamar Owen writes: > contrib/rpm-dist? A separate CVS module sounds like a better idea to me. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
> Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes: > > contrib/rpm-dist? > > Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM > packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large > proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. > So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for > putting it in the main tree. > > Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. It is platform-specific, which would seem to vote for /contrib. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: > > Rachit Siamwalla <rachit@ensim.com> writes: > > > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). > > Lamar Owen and I. Is the current snapshot available? I have submitted fixes twice now for what I am fairly sure is a bug in the init script.At least one of the posts was the shortly after lamar posted the RC3 RPM. Yet the bug remained. This is not a complaint -- you guys have put alot of effort into the RPMs and they are very solid IMHO. But I would likethe chance to look at the RPM as it stands sometime before 7.1, as I have to customize the RPM yet again to distributea working init script to our servers. Have you thought about a CVS store some place for the RPM files? -- Karl
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
>> Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name.
> It is platform-specific, which would seem to vote for /contrib.
Huh? By that logic, all of src/makefiles/, src/template/, and
src/backend/port/, not to mention large chunks of the configure
mechanism, belong in contrib. Shall we rip out all BSD support
and move it to contrib?
contrib has never been about platform dependency in my mind; it's about
whether we consider something part of the project mainstream (in terms
of code quality and our willingness to support it). RPM support isn't
going away, and I'm willing to call it mainstream ...
regards, tom lane
Lamar Owen wrote: > > Tom Lane wrote: > > Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone > > else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(. > > My wife appreciates the sentiment :-). As it stands now, better > documentation distributed in the source RPM would help greatly. > Everything necessary to do the build and maintain the package is in the > source RPM as it stands now -- evidenced by the Linux distributors being > able to take our source RPM, massage it to fit their particular system, > and run with it. And I have a scad of history available in specfile > form.... > > > If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be > > in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just > > where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a > > separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for > > it don't end up pulling/downloading it. > > Not counting the JDBC jars, it's a hundred K or so uncompressed. The > spec file is around 30k -- a small amount of code. > > contrib/rpm-dist? Seems to work. But I would prefer to look at how ither packaging schemes work and come up with something that might be consistent and useful across the board. For starters, I'd make contrib/package/ Then make an rpm subdirectory. Also a pkg directory for system that use pkgmk/pkginfo/pkgadd/pkgrm. If there's a way to may debain packages paly the game, put them in as well. Then, if someaone is packages for a variety of systems, there is alt least the possibility of some small amount of consistency. Extending things, you could have contrib/package/rpm/redhat for redhat-specific stuff. contrib/package/rpm/mandrake for mandrafke stuff. You get the idea. At that point, I could even imagine contrib/mkpackage script that di som OS detection, and built wahtever you wanted. That may be a little far off, but I think there is an important nuggent in here. Tarballs are great for developers, but they are not that great for system administrators with large installed bases. PostgreSQL builds are great for the portability. The next logical step might in fact be to extend some of that consistency to the package creation arena. -- Karl
Karl DeBisschop writes: > PostgreSQL builds are great for the portability. The next logical step > might in fact be to extend some of that consistency to the package > creation arena. This would have been cool in 1996. We would have evolved a large number of different packages along with the build system. But it didn't happen this way and now most packages are sufficiently contorted in a number of ways because of vendor requirements, different ideas of how an operating system is supposed to work, self-inflicted incompatibilities, and a number of other reasons, including not least importantly the desire to have control over what ships in your system. All valid reasons, of course. If we can work at, and succeed at, resolving most of these oddities, then tracking packages in the source tree might prove worthwhile. But as long as we're still required to keep track what vendor has 'chkconfig' or what version of what distribution has broken CFLAGS, to list some trivial things, as long as the packages need to track anything but the development of PostgreSQL itself, this undertaking is going to become a problem. What would be worthwhile is setting up another cvs module so packages can be developed and released at their own pace. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
For various definitions of "Platform". Linux runs on a NUMBER of hardware platforms, and RPM is used by a LOT of LINUX distributions. I'd vote for src/rpm-tools/ if I had a vote. -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler/ Phone: +1 972 414 9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749 US >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 5/4/01, 11:57:05 AM, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> wrote regarding Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1: > > Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes: > > > contrib/rpm-dist? > > > > Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM > > packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large > > proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. > > So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for > > putting it in the main tree. > > > > Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. > It is platform-specific, which would seem to vote for /contrib. > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
Karl DeBisschop wrote: > > Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: > > > > Rachit Siamwalla <rachit@ensim.com> writes: > > > > > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > > > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > > > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). > > > > Lamar Owen and I. > > Is the current snapshot available? The current snapshot is the 7.1-1 release as of this time. >I have submitted fixes twice now for what I am fairly sure is a bug in the init script. At least one of the posts was theshortly after lamar posted the RC3 RPM. Yet the bug remained. I thought I integrated that one, but I must not have. My apologies. > This is not a complaint -- you guys have put alot of effort into the RPMs and they are very solid IMHO. But I would likethe chance to look at the RPM as it stands sometime before 7.1, as I have to customize the RPM yet again to distributea working init script to our servers. Mail me the initscript as fixed. Put a [HACKERS] in the usbject so it goes to the right folder. The extant 7.1-1 RPMset is the last build I have made. > Have you thought about a CVS store some place for the RPM files? Yes. Discussion currently underway in HACKERS. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Peter Eisentraut wrote: > What would be worthwhile is setting up another cvs module so packages can > be developed and released at their own pace. This is an _excellent_ point, and one I had thought of before but had forgotten. FWIW, I have a project set up at greatbridge.org -- I just have to get myself in gear and get it done. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > Karl DeBisschop writes: > > > PostgreSQL builds are great for the portability. The next logical step > > might in fact be to extend some of that consistency to the package > > creation arena. > > This would have been cool in 1996. We would have evolved a large number > of different packages along with the build system. But it didn't happen > this way and now most packages are sufficiently contorted in a number of > ways because of vendor requirements, different ideas of how an operating > system is supposed to work, self-inflicted incompatibilities, and a number > of other reasons, including not least importantly the desire to have > control over what ships in your system. All valid reasons, of course. > > If we can work at, and succeed at, resolving most of these oddities, then > tracking packages in the source tree might prove worthwhile. But as long > as we're still required to keep track what vendor has 'chkconfig' or what > version of what distribution has broken CFLAGS, to list some trivial > things, as long as the packages need to track anything but the development > of PostgreSQL itself, this undertaking is going to become a problem. > > What would be worthwhile is setting up another cvs module so packages can > be developed and released at their own pace. I think on the biggest point we agree. Working with packagers and making that job easier and more consistent is a good thing, (so long as it does not interfere with development on postgresql itself, of course). On the projects I am involved with, however, my experience of what work has been contary to the tactics you suggest for reaching tha goal. I found it easiest to develop in close concert with packagers, and in my case that meant hosting the various packaging scripts within the source tree. Of course that was for smaller projects with much less legacy than postgresql, so maybe it doesn't apply here. I still think it would be cool to download just the tarball from the site and have a little 'mkpackage' script that I run on solaris to get the cannonical solaris packages, on Red Hat to get the cannonical Red Hat rpms, on FreeBSD to get the cannonical port, etc. Maybe a ways off, but an appealing end goal to me. It would be even better if by unifying support of the packaging process, the differences between install would be limited to the requirements of each OS, and not be dictated by the personal whims of the packager. I know Lamar and Oliver keep in close contact so their packages don't get too idiosyncratic. I'm advocating any process that helps extend that spirit across the board. -- Karl
> Of course, there are many projects that DO include all the files > necessary to build RPMs from their Official Tarball (TM). > > Bruce, should portions of that answer be part of the linux FAQ? I don't > want to have to write that too many times :-). I just had time to read that myself. Not sure about the Linux FAQ, but it seems the file should be linked to from the Linux FAQ so people can read this when needed. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
I have added this to the developer's FAQ. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rachit Siamwalla wrote: > > oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init > > scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps > > should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were > > branching 7.1.1) > > > Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init > > scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also > > curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). > > That would be me. Before building and releasing 7.1.1 RPMs I will be > reviewing the various bugs and changes planned for the 7.1.1 RPM. > > As to why the RPM init script is different from the one packaged in the > main source tree -- I can make assumptions in the RPM set that the > version in the source tree cannot. > > As to how the RPMs are built -- to answer that question sanely requires > me to know how much experience you have with the whole RPM paradigm. > 'How is the RPM built?' is a multifaceted question. The obvious simple > answer is that I maintain: > 1.) A set of patches to make certain portions of the source > tree 'behave' in the different environment of the RPMset; > 2.) The initscript; > 3.) Any other ancilliary scripts and files; > 4.) A README.rpm-dist document that tries to adequately document > both the differences between the RPM build and the WHY of the > differences, as well as useful RPM environment operations > (like, using syslog, upgrading, getting postmaster to > start at OS boot, etc); > 5.) The spec file that throws it all together. This is not a > trivial undertaking in a package of this size. > > I then download and build on as many different canonical distributions > as I can -- currently I am able to build on Red Hat 6.2, 7.0, and 7.1 on > my personal hardware. Occasionally I receive opportunity from certain > commercial enterprises such as Great Bridge and PostgreSQL Inc to build > on other distributions. > > I test the build by installing the resulting packages and running the > regression tests. Once the build passes these tests, I upload to the > postgresql.org ftp server and make a release announcement. I am also > responsible for maintaining the RPM download area on the ftp site. > > You'll notice I said 'canonical' distributions above. That simply means > that the machine is as stock 'out of the box' as practical -- that is, > everything (except select few programs) on these boxen are installed by > RPM; only official Red Hat released RPMs are used (except in unusual > circumstances involving software that will not alter the build -- for > example, installing a newer non-RedHat version of the Dia diagramming > package is OK -- installing Python 2.1 on the box that has Python 1.5.2 > installed is not, as that alters the PostgreSQL build). The RPM as > uploaded is built to as close to out-of-the-box pristine as is > possible. Only the standard released 'official to that release' > compiler is used -- and only the standard official kernel is used as > well. > > For a time I built on Mandrake for RedHat consumption -- no more. > Nonstandard RPM building systems are worse than useless. Which is not > to say that Mandrake is useless! By no means is Mandrake useless -- > unless you are building Red Hat RPMs -- and Red Hat is useless if you're > trying to build Mandrake or SuSE RPMs, for that matter. But I would be > foolish to use 'Lamar Owen's Super Special RPM Blend Distro 0.1.2' to > build for public consumption! :-) > > I _do_ attempt to make the _source_ RPM compatible with as many > distributions as possible -- however, since I have limited resources (as > a volunteer RPM maintainer) I am limited as to the amount of testing > said build will get on other distributions, architectures, or systems. > > And, while I understand people's desire to immediately upgrade to the > newest version, realize that I do this as a side interest -- I have a > regular, full-time job as a broadcast > engineer/webmaster/sysadmin/Technical Director which occasionally > prevents me from making timely RPM releases. This happened during the > early part of the 7.1 beta cycle -- but I believe I was pretty much on > the ball for the Release Candidates and the final release. > > I am working towards a more open RPM distribution -- I would dearly love > to more fully document the process and put everything into CVS -- once I > figure out how I want to represent things such as the spec file in a CVS > form. It makes no sense to maintain a changelog, for instance, in the > spec file in CVS when CVS does a better job of changelogs -- I will need > to write a tool to generate a real spec file from a CVS spec-source file > that would add version numbers, changelog entries, etc to the result > before building the RPM. IOW, I need to rethink the process -- and then > go through the motions of putting my long RPM history into CVS one > version at a time so that version history information isn't lost. > > As to why all these files aren't part of the source tree, well, unless > there was a large cry for it to happen, I don't believe it should. > PostgreSQL is very platform-agnostic -- and I like that. Including the > RPM stuff as part of the Official Tarball (TM) would, IMHO, slant that > agnostic stance in a negative way. But maybe I'm too sensitive to > that. I'm not opposed to doing that if that is the consensus of the > core group -- and that would be a sneaky way to get the stuff into CVS > :-). But if the core group isn't thrilled with the idea (and my > instinct says they're not likely to be), I am opposed to the idea -- not > to keep the stuff to myself, but to not hinder the platform-neutral > stance. IMHO, of course. > > Of course, there are many projects that DO include all the files > necessary to build RPMs from their Official Tarball (TM). > > Bruce, should portions of that answer be part of the linux FAQ? I don't > want to have to write that too many times :-). > -- > Lamar Owen > WGCR Internet Radio > 1 Peter 4:11 > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
On Tuesday 27 November 2001 01:27 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote: > I have added this to the developer's FAQ. > > I then download and build on as many different canonical distributions > > as I can -- currently I am able to build on Red Hat 6.2, 7.0, and 7.1 on > > my personal hardware. Occasionally I receive opportunity from certain > > commercial enterprises such as Great Bridge and PostgreSQL Inc to build > > on other distributions. Hmmm. Bruce, would it be possible to put a date on that entry, as that answer has some fairly old information -- old as in last cycle. I currently am only able to build and test on Red Hat 7.2 -- and that is subject to change as time goes on. Maybe, in the FAQ, where you say 'Written by Lamar Owen' you could expound that a little by adding 'on May 4 2001' (or whenever I actually wrote it).... BTW: I believe those new sections are very nice, even if I did write two of them.... :-) -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
> On Tuesday 27 November 2001 01:27 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I have added this to the developer's FAQ. > > > > I then download and build on as many different canonical distributions > > > as I can -- currently I am able to build on Red Hat 6.2, 7.0, and 7.1 on > > > my personal hardware. Occasionally I receive opportunity from certain > > > commercial enterprises such as Great Bridge and PostgreSQL Inc to build > > > on other distributions. > > Hmmm. Bruce, would it be possible to put a date on that entry, as that > answer has some fairly old information -- old as in last cycle. I currently > am only able to build and test on Red Hat 7.2 -- and that is subject to > change as time goes on. Maybe, in the FAQ, where you say 'Written by Lamar > Owen' you could expound that a little by adding 'on May 4 2001' (or whenever > I actually wrote it).... > > BTW: I believe those new sections are very nice, even if I did write two of > them.... :-) OK, done. Dates are a good idea for these entries. I put the date in standard Unix format at the top of each message. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026