Thread: Need for PostgreSQL demand?

From:
Gabriele Bartolini
Date:

Hi guys,

   surfing the MySQL website I ended on the JoinVision website, which
had a few interesting diagrams regarding the skills market according to
their job offers/applications archive.

   http://www.joinvision.com/jv/x/n/t-TStatMarketDetail-statistic-db-loc-en

   The scary thing is that there is almost a 5% of skilled people using
PostgreSQL, but less than 1% demand by companies or employers in general.

   I am interested into knowing if you have other sources of information
similar to this or previous analysis of the phenomena.

   Of course, this is just one case, but it could be self-explanatory
and suggest - once again - the we, as PostgreSQL community, need to work
on generating demand for PostgreSQL. Promotion, promotion, promotion. :)

   Any thoughts?

Ciao,
Gabriele

--
Gabriele Bartolini: Open source programmer and data architect
Current Location: Prato, Tuscany, Italy
 | www.gabrielebartolini.it
"If I had been born ugly, you would never have heard of Pelé", George Best
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gbartolini


From:
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
Date:

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:39 +0100, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:
> The scary thing is that there is almost a 5% of skilled people using
> PostgreSQL,

No, it is "Postgre SQL" there :)
--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/



Attachment
From:
"Gabriele Bartolini"
Date:

Ciao Josh,

2007/11/2, Josh Berkus <>:
Not that we *don't* need to promote PostgreSQL -- we always do -- but
I'd avoid reading too much into this.  Remember, they're only surveying
*their* job listings, not job listings on the internet in general.

Yep, I understand that. That's why I wanted to know if there are similar statistics available on the net.
 
One of the major concerns I often get from high school or university students is that they "barely found PostgreSQL job advertised", hence they prefer to invest on other RDBMS. I always reply with concepts like SQL standard high compliance, transferrable skills, multi-platform availability - which make a good impression. But still, when students see hundreds of jobs for the competitors and barely none for PostgreSQL, it is very hard to juggle with it. :)

  And the *total* number of listings in the survey was apparently less than 100.

Mhhh ... I had not seen those numbers and yep ... if I sum them I get a number slightly above 100 (supply)/below 100 (demand).

So, "sample error".

Yep. :)

Thanks,
Gabriele
From:
"Mike Ellsworth"
Date:

>    Of course, this is just one case, but it could be self-explanatory
> and suggest - once again - the we, as PostgreSQL community, need to work
> on generating demand for PostgreSQL. Promotion, promotion, promotion. :)
>
>    Any thoughts?
>
> Ciao,
> Gabriele

My bias - Anything that can help users share without each company
reinventing the wheel, can be helpful.  The easier it is to implement,
the better.
Here is an example - -  Brian is a Flemaker guy -- and knows how to
market.  Something similar could be done here.  Word would get around.

http://www.briandunning.com/filemaker-custom-functions/list.php

From:
Greg Smith
Date:

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:

> The scary thing is that there is almost a 5% of skilled people using
> PostgreSQL, but less than 1% demand by companies or employers in
> general.

The main thing this is saying is that people who have positions involving
PostgreSQL to fill aren't advertisting them on joinvision; they show 9
active right now.  Since I've never heard of that site before, and they're
tiny (they list 2663 tech jobs right now, dice.com has 95,817), I wouldn't
draw too much of a conclusion beyond that from their data.  Not a big
enough sample size.

However, a larger search on Dice suggests similar percentages. Dice shows
249 jobs that mention PostgreSQL, while 2245 mention MySQL and 20617
mention Oracle.  If you cut those numbers up, again PostgreSQL jobs do
seem to be around 1% of the total DB hiring market.

Having been through a job search in this area myself recently, I can say
it takes a certain amount of faith (or, in my case, technical fascism) to
consider a career working with Postgres given how the relatively low
number of open positions out there.

--
* Greg Smith  http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

From:
Josh Berkus
Date:

Gabriele,

>   Of course, this is just one case, but it could be self-explanatory and
> suggest - once again - the we, as PostgreSQL community, need to work on
> generating demand for PostgreSQL. Promotion, promotion, promotion. :)

Not that we *don't* need to promote PostgreSQL -- we always do -- but
I'd avoid reading too much into this.  Remember, they're only surveying
*their* job listings, not job listings on the internet in general.  And
the *total* number of listings in the survey was apparently less than 100.

So, "sample error".

--Josh


From:
Ron Peterson
Date:

2007-10-31_11:29:47-0400 Greg Smith <>:

> However, a larger search on Dice suggests similar percentages. Dice
> shows 249 jobs that mention PostgreSQL, while 2245 mention MySQL and
> 20617 mention Oracle.  If you cut those numbers up, again PostgreSQL
> jobs do seem to be around 1% of the total DB hiring market.

I don't have numbers to back this up, but my suspicion is that these
numbers correlate with the numbers of applications that use each
respective database as their primary backend platform.  For example, how
many installed enterprise quality ERP systems use Oracle vs. MySQL
vs. PostgreSQL?  Ditto for CMS apps, LMS apps, you name it.

That said, I really don't see how these numbers can hold over the long
term.  If I am an ERP vendor, I can obtain a huge competitive advantage
by commoditizing my infrastructure requirements.  Now, if you want to
build on solid foundation, which commodity database do you choose?  Is
anybody ready to run a bank on MySQL?  This is bet your business stuff.
Again, I don't have any data, but my perception is that PostgreSQL is
just beginning to be considered a viable contender for bet the farm
systems like that.  And it's only getting better.

There's a lot of inertia to overcome, though.  First, app vendors have
to rewrite their apps.  Any sane vendor must realize it's in their
interest to do so (before their competition does), but that takes time.
Then their clients have to buy the vision and replace existing working
systems with something different.  And retrain staff.

Whis is all to say I don't see this market turning on a dime, but I do
think the momentum is in PostgreSQL's favor.  It's a really big slow
heavy mass that's starting to move in the right direction - and there's
no stopping it.

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

From:
Ron Peterson
Date:

2007-11-02_21:20:58-0400 Ron Peterson <>:

> I don't have numbers to back this up, but my suspicion is that these
> numbers correlate with the numbers of applications that use each
> respective database as their primary backend platform.

I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
something as high-profile as an ERP app either.  Pick off some lower
hanging fruit first.  There's some pretty crufty stuff out there that
exists primarily on account of no-one taking the initiative to build
anything better.  Check out the market for systems to manage the higher
education enterprise for example - registration systems, etc.

Just another "somebody should do something" rant, I suppose.  I have
actually considered such things, but as a practical matter, it's too
much to do as a hobby, and being a father of three and all, I'm a little
adverse to risking my children's future on unfunded entrepreneurial
ventures.  :(

If someone wants to start "The PostgreSQL Application Company", and can
promise some measure of job security, that would make me raise an
eyebrow though... :)

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

From:
Robert Treat
Date:

On Wednesday 31 October 2007 11:29, Greg Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:
> > The scary thing is that there is almost a 5% of skilled people using
> > PostgreSQL, but less than 1% demand by companies or employers in
> > general.
>
> The main thing this is saying is that people who have positions involving
> PostgreSQL to fill aren't advertisting them on joinvision; they show 9
> active right now.  Since I've never heard of that site before, and they're
> tiny (they list 2663 tech jobs right now, dice.com has 95,817), I wouldn't
> draw too much of a conclusion beyond that from their data.  Not a big
> enough sample size.
>
> However, a larger search on Dice suggests similar percentages. Dice shows
> 249 jobs that mention PostgreSQL, while 2245 mention MySQL and 20617
> mention Oracle.  If you cut those numbers up, again PostgreSQL jobs do
> seem to be around 1% of the total DB hiring market.
>

At the risk of being moderated, part of this problem is a manifest of the
problems people have talked about with our product name.  Case in point,
search dice for {match any} "postgresql postgres postgre" and the results
climb to 383, nearly 50% more.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} Postgre

From:
Robert Treat
Date:

On Friday 02 November 2007 21:20, Ron Peterson wrote:
> That said, I really don't see how these numbers can hold over the long
> term.  If I am an ERP vendor, I can obtain a huge competitive advantage
> by commoditizing my infrastructure requirements.

One thing that slows down this adoption is that many erp vendors are also
database resellers, so they get a cut of the large database licensing costs
thier customers have to shell out.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

From:
Simon Riggs
Date:

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:39 +0100, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:

>    surfing the MySQL website I ended on the JoinVision website, which
> had a few interesting diagrams regarding the skills market according to
> their job offers/applications archive.
>
>    http://www.joinvision.com/jv/x/n/t-TStatMarketDetail-statistic-db-loc-en
>
>    The scary thing is that there is almost a 5% of skilled people using
> PostgreSQL, but less than 1% demand by companies or employers in general.

Couple of points to consider:

- We're on the list!

- Where did all these people get those skills? If 4% of DBMS
professionals have invested time outside of their jobs to learn
PostgreSQL, then I'd call that victory. However, seems more likely that
a lot of people are using and learning PostgreSQL at work, but the
market hasn't yet hit the point where there is an open skills market for
PostgreSQL skills, so the job ads haven't yet caught up.

- There's a huge number of legacy databases to manage, produced over the
last 20-30 years. Those numbers don't tell you what I see: many DBMS are
in legacy mode and many people are replacing them with Postgres. That
takes time to achieve, but it also means that skills in the legacy
products are still highly in demand for migrations and long term
maintenance.

- The difficulty in managing Oracle increases its Total Cost of
Ownership which is making people move away from it. The requirement to
have lots of DBAs doesn't necessarily equate to a long term stable job
role for Oracle DBAs. There is a skill shift towards
Developers-with-Database-skills, so the primary job ads will mention PHP
but you'll only get the job if you know PHP and Postgres, for example.

--
  Simon Riggs
  2ndQuadrant  http://www.2ndQuadrant.com


From:
Kevin Hunter
Date:

At 9:37p -0400 on 02 Nov 2007, Ron Peterson wrote:
> 2007-11-02_21:20:58-0400 Ron Peterson <>:
>
>> I don't have numbers to back this up, but my suspicion is that these
>> numbers correlate with the numbers of applications that use each
>> respective database as their primary backend platform.
>
> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
> something as high-profile as an ERP app either.  Pick off some lower
> hanging fruit first.  There's some pretty crufty stuff out there that
> exists primarily on account of no-one taking the initiative to build
> anything better.  Check out the market for systems to manage the higher
> education enterprise for example - registration systems, etc.

Actually, we* created something like that back in '96-'97.  It
started life with Postgres (5.2, then others), but later got migrated to
Oracle because the college used (uses) Banner.  It has since grown into
what the college uses for it's student course registration and works
very well for us.  It's tacked on a few other features, and has to be
updated from time to time as the underlying datamodel to which it
interfaces in Banner gets changed or updated between versions, but the
core functionality is student course lookup and registration.

What I think would be more helpful for our college (and I imagine plenty
others, but I've no numbers, just numerous conversations) than just a
registration system is a rethinking of the entire one-program-fits-all
that is Banner/PeopleSoft/SIS/... It's perhaps nice in thought to have
everything tied together in one program, but the non-modularization
makes it extremely difficult to understand/use without a lot of support,
not to mention initial training.  If someone/entity could come along
with a much cleaner/more user-friendly (gawd, much more user-friendly!)
system and a migration plan (the trick, I know), well . . . The problem,
as always, is that initially there's no money there, and if it's an
open-source gig, there's the administrative fallacy/notion that "we'd
have no one to blame if something went wrong."  I wouldn't mind working
on something like that, but I'm not in a position to be able to work for
free, nor could I even hope to do it by myself.  I don't think I'm alone
in these respects.

> If someone wants to start "The PostgreSQL Application Company", and can
> promise some measure of job security, that would make me raise an
> eyebrow though... :)

That's the real trick, isn't it?  I'll bet that many of us on this/the
general list would take notice of that.

Kevin

* Little more complicated than that because I wasn't around for the
beginning and was but "one of many" students to work on the project (it
was entirely coded by undergrad students with small tidbits of mentoring
along the way).  If you're interested, I'm happy to talk more off list
about the project, which we call WebDB.

From:
Josh Berkus
Date:

Ron, Kevin,

>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be

This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced.
However, the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best.
Personally, I see a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a
killer app, but nobody wants to listen to me, apparently.

--Josh


From:
Steve Atkins
Date:

On Nov 4, 2007, at 10:00 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Ron, Kevin,
>
>>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for
>>> someone to
>>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
>
> This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-
> sourced. However, the reception from our community has been
> lukewarm at best. Personally, I see a Filemaker replacement which
> runs on PG to be a killer app, but nobody wants to listen to me,
> apparently.

Is it possible that the environments that might be most interested in
that sort of an application (small or internal developer targeting
enterprise) might be particularly sensitive to it being GPL licensed?

Cheers,
   Steve


From:
ioguix
Date:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Josh Berkus a écrit :
> Ron, Kevin,
>
>>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
>
> This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced.
> However, the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best.
> Personally, I see a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a
> killer app, but nobody wants to listen to me, apparently.
I am 100% agree with you about this kind of "killer app" as I was
looking for such a project some time ago...

Actually, there's one project which is on this way : Glom[1]. It's
getting better and better, but probably needs some more hands to grow
faster and stable enought for a professionnal use...

[1] http://www.glom.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page


- --
ioguix
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From:
"Joshua.Kramer"
Date:

Josh,

Just my two cents.

First, there actually WAS a FileMaker work-alike, called Rekall.  The two
guys who produced it tried to market it but it never took off.  There is
still an Open Source version (http://www.rekallrevealed.org), but it's not
actively developed.  I did a Linux Journal article on this a while back.
Maybe if there's enough interest, this project could be revived?

Next - do you think PostBooks could be a 'killer app', or are you looking
for a database frontend?

Cheers,
-J

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Ron, Kevin,
>
>> >  I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>> >  develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
>
> This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced. However,
> the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best. Personally, I see
> a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a killer app, but nobody wants
> to listen to me, apparently.
>
> --Josh
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at
>
>               http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
>
>
>

From:
Robert Bernier
Date:

On Monday 5 November 2007 10:44, Joshua.Kramer wrote:
> First, there actually WAS a FileMaker work-alike, called Rekall.  The two
> guys who produced it tried to market it but it never took off.  There is
> still an Open Source version (http://www.rekallrevealed.org), but it's not
> actively developed.  I did a Linux Journal article on this a while back.
> Maybe if there's enough interest, this project could be revived?
>
> Next - do you think PostBooks could be a 'killer app', or are you looking
> for a database frontend?


Just a question; but does everybody think that a postgres killer app has to be a front-end client?


From:
"Leif B. Kristensen"
Date:

On Monday 5. November 2007, Robert Bernier wrote:

>Just a question; but does everybody think that a postgres killer app
> has to be a front-end client?

I have successfully developed a personal genealogy database with
Postgres in combination with PHP. In its current form, it's hardly more
than a prototype, and it would take an awful lot of work to make it
into a seamless interface for a non-technical user. But I really love
it.

In general, I think the world is rapidly heading towards online storage
solutions for this kind of database stuff, and it may well be the Next
Big Thing[TM] in database applications. The mainstream genealogy
programs still use a Nineties model, where the data is stored on the
user's HDD, typically in a dinky flat-file system. I think that is
scary. The world needs quality storage systems for this kind of data,
and Postgres absolutely has a niche to fill here.

You can read some of my thoughts on the topic in this article:

http://solumslekt.org/forays/exodus.php
--
Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009
http://solumslekt.org/ | Cruising with Gentoo/KDE
My Jazz Jukebox: http://www.last.fm/user/leifbk/

From:
"Liam O'Duibhir"
Date:

Interesting thread this...my two cents...

In regards to a killer app that uses/promotes PostgreSQL I think a
web-hosted small-business-friendly office suite built using Open Source
would be just that - essentially, an Open Source equivalent of Goggle Docs
and Spreadsheets with some key business enhancements.

The Zoho online office suite which includes an ability to build simple forms
offers this, but, as best I can determine, neither Zoho or Google Docs have
made their source code available.

Were an Open Source collaboration, possibly featuring Open Office and
PostgreSQL as the core technologies, to build such a system, I think it
could be the makings of that much sought-after killer app.

Liam O'Duibhir

> -----Original Message-----
> From:  [mailto:pgsql-advocacy-
> ] On Behalf Of Joshua.Kramer
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 2:44 AM
> To: Josh Berkus
> Cc: Kevin Hunter; Ron Peterson; Postgres Advocacy List
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Need for PostgreSQL demand?
>
>
> Josh,
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> First, there actually WAS a FileMaker work-alike, called Rekall.  The two
> guys who produced it tried to market it but it never took off.  There is
> still an Open Source version (http://www.rekallrevealed.org), but it's not
> actively developed.  I did a Linux Journal article on this a while back.
> Maybe if there's enough interest, this project could be revived?
>
> Next - do you think PostBooks could be a 'killer app', or are you looking
> for a database frontend?
>
> Cheers,
> -J
>
> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
> > Ron, Kevin,
> >
> >> >  I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone
> to
> >> >  develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
> >
> > This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced.
> However,
> > the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best. Personally,
> I see
> > a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a killer app, but nobody
> wants
> > to listen to me, apparently.
> >
> > --Josh
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at
> >
> >               http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster



From:
Kevin Hunter
Date:

At 1:00a -0500 on 05 Nov 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:
>>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be
>
> This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced.
> However, the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best.
> Personally, I see a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a
> killer app, but nobody wants to listen to me, apparently.

I was out of the country and off-list for a couple of months (starting
just a week before the release), so I missed your Once:Radix promotion.
 :-|  But, I'll have a looksie after I get back from SC in 11 days.

Or thoughts may follow in my response to Ron's message ...

Kevin

From:
Kevin Hunter
Date:

At 4:21a -0500 on 05 Nov 2007, ioguix wrote:
>> This is why I tried hard to promote Once:Radix when it open-sourced.
>> However, the reception from our community has been lukewarm at best.
>> Personally, I see a Filemaker replacement which runs on PG to be a
>> killer app, but nobody wants to listen to me, apparently.
>
> I am 100% agree with you about this kind of "killer app" as I was
> looking for such a project some time ago...

I think it's safe to say that a fair number of us on this particular
list are looking for such a project ... :-P

> Actually, there's one project which is on this way : Glom[1]. It's
> getting better and better, but probably needs some more hands to grow
> faster and stable enought for a professionnal use...

This is perhaps my lack-of-awareness of the general playing field, but
neither of these projects seem to me to be of the "killer app" variety.
They certainly do have their merits, though.  Indeed, Once:radix /does/
look cool, and I will take a more in-depth look at it after the SC
conference, but my initial impression is that it is geared toward a
small niche of the (web) developer segment.  Similarly, Glom also looks
cool, but seems at second glance to be a glorified schema interface.  (I
mean no disrespect towards either project, but them's my impressions.)
In terms of massively gaining Postgres popularity, I think a killer app
will take away the developer-esque feel of working with the database.

The problem, as I see it, is that the term "killer app" means different
things to different people and different functions for different
environments.  For example, people often tout Photoshop as being their
killer app for why they'd never use *nix.  For the way I work and what I
do, however, my killer app set is ssh, user-inet tools (web browser,
mail client, rss reader, voip), (multi)text editor, and lots of seamless
virtual desktops.  I don't have that combination in Windows by a long shot.

That said, *my* first thought on a killer app for this era (~2008) lies
more along the lines of relying heavily on the database but hiding that
fact from the end-user.  I know that it has so far proven infeasible,
but what about something like a DB-backed filesystem?  Having the
ability to ask the filesystem for what I want (in terms of tags,
identifying characteristics, etc) rather than having to keep everything
organized myself ... well, I won't go into the merits of the concept as
I'm sure y'all know way more than I.  The point is that a project of
this nature would use a DB but hide that fact from the end-user.  I
don't know if Postgres would fit in this role, but all the qualities of
the DB would shine through (ACID, speed, parallel usage, fine-grained
security, ...)

A killer app for Postgres would be something that absolutely uses the
strengths of Postgres.  Complexity of it aside, the FS idea would
brilliantly highlight the robustness of Postgres, a point that would
instantly drop some other DB's from the running.

Short of a killer app, though, I don't agree with the original thought:

At 9:37p -0400 on 02 Nov 2007, Ron Peterson wrote:
>>>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>>>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be

The "best possible marketing" is difficult to ascertain, but I think a
broader approach would work just as well.  Rather than making a killer
app (which is admittedly less work, but only *after* you find the idea),
create apps that utilize Postgres /and/ its strengths.  Along these
lines, here are a couple not-so-killer apps, but apps and areas that are
important nonetheless and that I'm fairly certain would benefit from
Postgres and OpenSource TLC:

- University-style ERP (Banner, PeopleSoft, ...)
  * AFAIK no Postgres based version exists

- Web/distributed Financial applications
  * LedgerSMB is great, and we use it, but it needs a fair amount work
    as well

- A genealogy project (mentioned by Leif earlier)
  * Don't know of any official projects
  * I can't count how many times genealogy and genealogy records have
    come up in the past year.  I think this would make an /excellent/
    history/CS project for an undergrad student to start.

- Blogging for high-traffic websites
  * I'm certain these exist, but I don't know of any that rely on
    Postgres other than as a plugin to Drupal

I'll stop there, but you get the idea.  The last two are admittedly not
of the large-style projects at which Postgres excels, but would go a
long way towards getting hobbyist folks involved and aware.

I'm hesitant to say much more of what's on my mind because I just don't
know, and I fear I may have already said something false.  (/me waits
for TL/GS/JD/JB/DF/RT/MM to correct some fallacy).  :-)

Cheers,

Kevin

From:
Ron Peterson
Date:

2007-11-06_03:28:24-0500 Kevin Hunter <>:

> Along these lines, here are a couple not-so-killer apps, but apps and
> areas that are important nonetheless and that I'm fairly certain would
> benefit from Postgres and OpenSource TLC:

Another good idea, I think, is a SQL backed mail store.  DBMail provides
just that:

http://www.dbmail.org/

I believe (I might be wrong) they originally started as a PostgreSQL
project.  They have since inserted an abstraction layer to allow them
use MySQL etc also.  I'm not a big fan of that notion in general, but
definitely not w/ respect to a mail store, where efficiency and speed
are paramount.  DBMail also provides POP and IMAP clients, but last I
checked, secure connections required stunnel, which adds another layer
of inefficiency.

Great idea, but could be improved upon.

I'd put university ERP apps in the 'killer' category myself.  I know
folks pour gobsmacks into the so-called 'enterprise' solutions currently
on the market.  I don't think I'm alone in saying that it would be GREAT
to be able to move toward a commodity solution.  This is one area where
the 'service' facet of F/OSS development would certainly play out,
because institutions all want to preserve certain processes unique to
themselves, and need help making that happen.  I think an app that could
displace Banner, Datatel, etc would certainly be 'killer' for me at
least.

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

From:
ioguix
Date:

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Kevin Hunter wrote :
>
> I know that it has so far proven infeasible,
> but what about something like a DB-backed filesystem?  Having the
> ability to ask the filesystem for what I want (in terms of tags,
> identifying characteristics, etc) rather than having to keep everything
> organized myself ... well, I won't go into the merits of the concept as
> I'm sure y'all know way more than I.  The point is that a project of
> this nature would use a DB but hide that fact from the end-user.  I
> don't know if Postgres would fit in this role, but all the qualities of
> the DB would shine through (ACID, speed, parallel usage, fine-grained
> security, ...)
This project exists. It's a student project called noofs. Unfortunatly,
it seems they are laking of web hoster (fr:
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.file-systems.noofs.devel).

I head about them on internet, then in a french OSS event where they did
some exciting demos...

- --
Guillaume 'ioguix' de Rorthais
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From:
Ron Peterson
Date:

2007-11-06_08:23:36-0500 ioguix <>:
> Kevin Hunter wrote :

> > but what about something like a DB-backed filesystem?

> This project exists. It's a student project called noofs. Unfortunatly,
> it seems they are laking of web hoster (fr:
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.file-systems.noofs.devel).

There have also been several FUSE projects aiming to do this - just
google "fuse database filesystem"

libferris (http://witme.sourceforge.net/libferris.web/) aims to turn
just about _everything_ into a filesystem.  Pretty interesting project.

From http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8901:

"With libferris, the boundary of your filesystem extends to include
PostgreSQL, XML, db4, RDF, the X Window System, Evolution and much
more."

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

From:
"Roderick A. Anderson"
Date:

Ron Peterson wrote:
> 2007-11-06_03:28:24-0500 Kevin Hunter <>:
>
>> Along these lines, here are a couple not-so-killer apps, but apps and
>> areas that are important nonetheless and that I'm fairly certain would
>> benefit from Postgres and OpenSource TLC:
>
> Another good idea, I think, is a SQL backed mail store.  DBMail provides
> just that:
>
> http://www.dbmail.org/

As does Archiveopteryx

    http://www.archiveopteryx.org/postgresql/


Rod
--
> I believe (I might be wrong) they originally started as a PostgreSQL
> project.  They have since inserted an abstraction layer to allow them
> use MySQL etc also.  I'm not a big fan of that notion in general, but
> definitely not w/ respect to a mail store, where efficiency and speed
> are paramount.  DBMail also provides POP and IMAP clients, but last I
> checked, secure connections required stunnel, which adds another layer
> of inefficiency.
>
> Great idea, but could be improved upon.
>
> I'd put university ERP apps in the 'killer' category myself.  I know
> folks pour gobsmacks into the so-called 'enterprise' solutions currently
> on the market.  I don't think I'm alone in saying that it would be GREAT
> to be able to move toward a commodity solution.  This is one area where
> the 'service' facet of F/OSS development would certainly play out,
> because institutions all want to preserve certain processes unique to
> themselves, and need help making that happen.  I think an app that could
> displace Banner, Datatel, etc would certainly be 'killer' for me at
> least.
>


From:
Ron Peterson
Date:

2007-11-06_09:06:36-0500 "Roderick A. Anderson" <>:
> Ron Peterson wrote:
> >2007-11-06_03:28:24-0500 Kevin Hunter <>:
> >
> >>Along these lines, here are a couple not-so-killer apps, but apps and
> >>areas that are important nonetheless and that I'm fairly certain would
> >>benefit from Postgres and OpenSource TLC:
> >
> >Another good idea, I think, is a SQL backed mail store.  DBMail provides
> >just that:
> >
> >http://www.dbmail.org/
>
> As does Archiveopteryx
>
>     http://www.archiveopteryx.org/postgresql/

I hadn't heard of that one.  Cool.  They have the best intro to a
roadmap I've seen:

"At Oryx, we try to strike a balance somewhere between making promises
we can't keep, and keeping our users entirely in the dark about our
plans."

:)

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

From:
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:

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On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:28:24 -0500
Kevin Hunter <> wrote:

> That said, *my* first thought on a killer app for this era (~2008)
> lies more along the lines of relying heavily on the database but
> hiding that fact from the end-user.  I know that it has so far proven
> infeasible, but what about something like a DB-backed filesystem?

PostgreSQL has had killers apps for years, PostGIS anyone?

The problem is we don't have the killer monkey app, e.g;

We don't have SugarCRM (thank god, that code is horrendous).
We don't have 100% Drupal support.

etc...

Joshua D. Drake


- -- 

      === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/
            UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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From:
"Joshua.Kramer"
Date:

> The problem is we don't have the killer monkey app, e.g;
> We don't have SugarCRM (thank god, that code is horrendous).
> We don't have 100% Drupal support.

We do have vTiger, which is a fork of Sugar.  We also have PostBooks,
which is of much higher quality (being based on around 800 Postgres
Functions, and a Qt-based front-end for Linux, Windows, and Mac).

If I had time, I would write about bundling the Windows version of
Postgres with Windows apps, instead of MS-SQL-Express.  That's what I did
with PostBooks - I took the app and wrote a Windows installer for it.
Such an article might be targeted at the Windows developer magazines and
websites...

Cheers,
-JK


From:
Ned Lilly
Date:

On 11/6/2007 3:28 AM Kevin Hunter wrote:

> - University-style ERP (Banner, PeopleSoft, ...)
>   * AFAIK no Postgres based version exists
>
> - Web/distributed Financial applications
>   * LedgerSMB is great, and we use it, but it needs a fair amount work
>     as well

I'd be horribly remiss if I didn't mention our own PostBooks project, a fully open source cousin of the OpenMFG ERP
Suite- http://sf.net/projects/postbooks.  All the business logic is in pl/pgsql functions, triggers, and such, and it
scaleswonderfully on the back of the underlying Postgres database.  The primary client is a GUI built with Qt, but
therehave been a number of other front-ends built, including web portals and wireless devices. 

Not only does it have more big-time ERP functionality than any other open source project (see www.xtuple.com/comparison
forsome functional detail), but it even has a cool Postgres-inspired name!  What more could you want in a Postgres
killerapp? ;-) 

Cheers,
Ned


--
Ned Lilly
President and CEO
xTuple (formerly OpenMFG)
119 West York Street
Norfolk, VA 23510
tel. 757.461.3022 x101
email: 
www.xtuple.com

From:
"Greg Sabino Mullane"
Date:

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Hash: RIPEMD160


Related to this thread, please add any and all applications you know
of to the wiki, so we have a centralized place to track applications
using Postgres, applications partially supported by Postgres, and
those needing a port:

http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Category:Software_Ports

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane 
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200711061354
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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From:
Alex N Markelov
Date:

>>> I think the best possible PostgreSQL marketing would be for someone to
>>> develop a knock-your-socks-off killer app.  It wouldn't have to be

Hi Guys!

May I suggest that in trying to find a killer app we may never get the
word out there :-). Everyone has his vision of a killer app and we may
never find that very one that will satisfy us all and truly be a killer.

I think what made MySQL so popular is that people just went creating
*all* sorts of apps and tools based on it, creating the critical mass,
so you start hearing the word 'MySQL' on every corner.

Why don't we just start building our own big pool of apps (I know we
have plenty already) or even porting existing MySQL based apps to
PostgreSQL, showcasing the best features we have that MySQL lacks? We do
not have to say 'look how bad MySQL is comparing to PostgreSQL', rather
'look you'll have it better way with PostgreSQL'.

I think this way we have more chances to create the demand and publicity
for our favourite RDBMS.

Regards,
Alex.

--
"Openness is the foundation and preservative of friendship...
Let me claim from you at all times your undisguised opinions."
                                                    --- William Wilberforce

PGP fingerprint: 9189 2ADE 6B32 DC1D 0317 603B 3757 936B 052A 8B73
PGP public key:
http://www.markelov.org/misc/Alex.Markelov_at_gmail.com_0x052A8B73_pub.asc

From:
Simon Riggs
Date:

On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 18:56 +0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

> Related to this thread, please add any and all applications you know
> of to the wiki, so we have a centralized place to track applications
> using Postgres, applications partially supported by Postgres, and
> those needing a port:
>
> http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Category:Software_Ports

Some feedback on this:

We list apps which may support Postgres, but they don't all easily
acknowledge that.

Openads.org for example doesn't mention PostgreSQL at all for the 2.4
version, with just a brief mention in the 2.0 notes.

Not exactly great advertising for us to mention it, when they don't
mention us.

We need to work on ports *and* getting the app teams to mention the
Postgres port on an equal footing with other database options.

--
  Simon Riggs
  2ndQuadrant  http://www.2ndQuadrant.com


From:
"Greg Sabino Mullane"
Date:

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Hash: RIPEMD160


>> http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Category:Software_Ports
>
> Some feedback on this:
>
> We list apps which may support Postgres, but they don't all easily
> acknowledge that.
>
> Openads.org for example doesn't mention PostgreSQL at all for the 2.4
> version, with just a brief mention in the 2.0 notes.
>
> Not exactly great advertising for us to mention it, when they don't
> mention us.
>
> We need to work on ports *and* getting the app teams to mention the
> Postgres port on an equal footing with other database options.

Agreed, there are many fronts we need to be focusing on. For now, my
short-term goal is to just start gathering all information I can, such as
a list of all products that use Postgres in some form or other, in once place
(the wiki). Then, we can start categorizing them further, and listing which
ones need a port, which ones support the project directly, which ones
hide the fact that they use Postgrs, etc. in the hopes that we can start doing
things to make Postgres more visible. Since this is a wiki, anyone please feel
free to jump in and make changes or add things.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane 
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200711121013
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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From:
Decibel!
Date:

On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Greg Smith wrote:
> Having been through a job search in this area myself recently, I
> can say it takes a certain amount of faith (or, in my case,
> technical fascism) to consider a career working with Postgres given
> how the relatively low number of open positions out there.

Wow, really? I typically average one call a month from someone trying
to hire me... Postgres experience seems to be in high demand compared
to the supply. If anything, ISTM that the ability to hire folks
discourages companies from using Postgres.
--
Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect  
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828



Attachment
From:
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:

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On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:36:07 -0600
Decibel! <> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Greg Smith wrote:
> > Having been through a job search in this area myself recently, I  
> > can say it takes a certain amount of faith (or, in my case,  
> > technical fascism) to consider a career working with Postgres
> > given how the relatively low number of open positions out there.
> 
> Wow, really? I typically average one call a month from someone
> trying to hire me... Postgres experience seems to be in high demand
> compared to the supply. If anything, ISTM that the ability to hire
> folks discourages companies from using Postgres.

The postgresql market is one of who you know, not what you know. The
smart employers troll this list. I too have received half a dozen
offers in the last year.

I just tell them they have zero idea what they are getting into if they
hire me ;)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- -- 

      === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/
            UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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From:
Decibel!
Date:

On Nov 13, 2007, at 9:16 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:36:07 -0600
> Decibel! <> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Greg Smith wrote:
>>> Having been through a job search in this area myself recently, I
>>> can say it takes a certain amount of faith (or, in my case,
>>> technical fascism) to consider a career working with Postgres
>>> given how the relatively low number of open positions out there.
>>
>> Wow, really? I typically average one call a month from someone
>> trying to hire me... Postgres experience seems to be in high demand
>> compared to the supply. If anything, ISTM that the ability to hire
>> folks discourages companies from using Postgres.
>
> The postgresql market is one of who you know, not what you know. The
> smart employers troll this list. I too have received half a dozen
> offers in the last year.

Actually, I think many of my hits actually come from my resume,
though my posts on the lists are what make google lub me.

> I just tell them they have zero idea what they are getting into if
> they
> hire me ;)

I'll make sure and tell the folks at work that ;P
--
Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect  
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828



Attachment
From:
Rob Napier
Date:

Hi!

It seems that I dropped off the advocacy list last year and missed all the activity six months ago when once:radix was part of your discussion about a killer app.

Here is my take on our first year in the open source domain as a wannabe killer app:

once:radix has been compared to FileMaker and Microsoft Access. That’s not surprising since we are serving similar end-user requirements. e.g. We have a client in Western Australia where about 40 people connect to a local server while another 15 people work out of their office in Melbourne. That’s about the same distance as New York to LA or London to Istanbul. The company currently has about 6,000 jobs in their system, created over the past 10 months. They have more than 3000 client and supplier contact records, project data, time sheets, requests for quotation, purchase orders, invoices, and so on. And it links to a back-end accounting package.

The system gets worked pretty hard over a basic 2 Mbps link between their offices. I doubt that a competitor product could achieve the same outcome without spending a fortune on Citrix clients.

But connectivity questions aside, is our application equal to an average Filemaker or Access app? I would have to say no. Having PostgreSQL as the underlying database allows our designers to build considerably more advanced systems.

But then, do people want to build such sophisticated systems? Again, most of the time, the answer is no, but the knowledge that systems can grow without running out of steam should give IT managers confidence that they are investing in a long-term solution.

I should think that more than 80% of competitor applications use only a few tables with very simple joins. At best, most would write only simple scripts (if any). This level of complexity can easily be accomplished in once:radix. And with the GUI screen design tools and database editor (all in a web browser) and a basic understanding of application development and database design, almost anyone can build equivalent applications that can be deployed via browsers.

If serious database designers feel tempted to look down their noses at the low end of the market, remember that Sun thought enough of MySQL to pull a billion dollars out of petty cash to buy them. That would never have happened if they had not first won the hearts and minds of low-end users.

Josh Berkus is right. A development and delivery environment that makes PostgreSQL more accessible could have a dramatic impact on its popularity. We have placed that technology in the public domain. We could achieve so much if some of the PostgreSQL community took a more proactive role in helping us make once:radix available to a wider community?

But we are not waiting for things to happen. once:technologies has moved its focus onto producing documentation that pitches the system to less experienced users, while also improving the information available to developers at the top end of our target market. We hope that by addressing both levels, we will begin to see a broader market acceptance.

Looking at our own application development, we try to keep things simple; but we sometimes have to resort to some pretty ambitious database design. He is an example of one relationship:

condition = join = "contacts_personmember" LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_person" ON ("contacts_person"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_person") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_addressdefault" ON ("contacts_person"."primary" = "contacts_addressdefault"."fk_person" AND "contacts_addressdefault"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_addressdefault") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_levelstructure" ON ("contacts_levelstructure"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_level") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_organization" ON ("contacts_organization"."primary" = "contacts_levelstructure"."fk_organization") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_branch" ON ("contacts_organization"."primary" = "contacts_branch"."fk_organization" AND "contacts_branch"."primary" = "contacts_levelstructure"."fk_branch") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_client" ON ("contacts_client"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_client") LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_supplier" ON ("contacts_supplier"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_supplier")
LEFT OUTER JOIN "contacts_staff" ON ("contacts_staff"."primary" = "contacts_personmember"."fk_staff")

Sure, this example is not for the fainthearted but the great virtue of choosing PostgreSQL for once:radix is that when this level of database design (or more) is needed, we can deliver. Triggers and Functions, client and server-side scripting, rapid application development, there is all this and a whole lot more in once:radix.   I wonder how the competition would handle some of the tasks we ask PostgreSQL to perform!

Our interface is more like a conventional client-server application than a web app. And that interface is part of the environment. For example, it doesn’t take special programming to create search, browse and edit modes. Also, searching in most fields take no more effort than a mouse click to return an indexed list of the contents of that field in the database.

We have a context-sensitive Help system with an inbuilt Apache Lucene search engine. It is really easy to document applications through that feature. Anyone with a basic sense of organisation and the ability to produce simple HTML can produce easy-to-access on-line help pages. And there is a lot, lot more – too much to cover here.

To date, we have built commercial applications for four quite different vertical markets; and now support clients in Australia, North America, the Caribbean and Europe. We have enough practical experience to be confident that our technology is fast, stable, secure and reliable.

So what has happened to the open source project over the past year?

Well there have been over 2000 downloads on SourceForge, representing almost 70 GB of data transfer. Not a huge number when measured against many open source projects, but still quite credible. We had hoped that people would come forward to help. To date, the response has been disappointing.

We are a small business. If we’d had the resources of even a mid-sized competitor, our position would be very different today and PostgreSQL would benefit from it. We invested a couple of million dollars in product development. Like the marketing of PostgreSQL, now comes the hard part: Finding distribution channels, building market share, recruiting strategic partners, et al. This is always the most challenging phase in bringing new technology to market.

We are still in there swinging!

Regards

Rob Napier
Managing Director
once:technologies pty ltd
From:
Decibel!
Date:

On May 19, 2008, at 12:22 PM, Rob Napier wrote:
> It seems that I dropped off the advocacy list last year and missed
> all the activity six months ago when once:radix was part of your
> discussion about a killer app.


Thanks for the email. Until now I've recommended Access as a
development environment to folks, but I'm glad there's a commercially
used OSS alternative to that now. No more recommending Access for me. :)
--
Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect  
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828



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