Thread: PHP/Postgresql Advocacy
Hello Everyone! my name is David Costa and I am the operator of a not for profit website, dotgeek.org (http://dotgeek.org). This is not my main occupation. I am a full time Professor in a private graduate college here in Switzerland and a direct contributor to PHP via Pear http://pear.php.net/user/gurugeek Dotgeek is focusing on PHP Development and Free Open Source PHP Certification. Just today we started to host an official mirror of postgresql and I am extremely trilled by the array of possible advocacy toward PHP developers. I have a number of plans for postgresql advocacy: - we will host a regular column on PHP/Postgresql development on dotgeek.org These articles and tutorials will increase the public awareness of PHP Developers on using postgresql with php development. In my humble opinion the general adoption of mysql by phpdevelopers is partially justified by the short learning curve and little awareness on how to configure and use postgresql for php development. - Whilst the site is not for profit we will gladly add a text link to donate something to the postgresql project if the visitors like what we do/provide. All donations will link directly to your donation page. - We regularly host PHP programming marathons (next one in April sponsored by Zend, PHPArch, and The Kompany) and we would be glad to buy some promotional materials from your site (e.g. t-shirts) and add them as prizes in our contest. I would really be glad to be part of your advocacy team. My first language is Italian so should you need some help with the manual translations, let me know. I look forward to a long term volunteer cooperation! Thanks again for providing the best relational database!! Best Regards David Costa P.S. side note: I write frequently on several mailing list. Would it be possible, for advocacy purposes, to have an email alias (forward) @postgresql.org ? Sorry if this might sound a bit odd, but (as you can see) I am really enthusiast about postgresql.
Hi, David! Welcome to the PostgreSQL community. > - we will host a regular column on PHP/Postgresql development on > dotgeek.org We will be happy to help find you writers for this. No promises, though; most of our folks with writing skills have multiple demands on our time. > These articles and tutorials will increase the public awareness of PHP > Developers on using postgresql with php development. In my humble > opinion the general adoption > of mysql by phpdevelopers is partially justified by the short learning > curve and little awareness on how to configure and use postgresql for > php development. Yes. > - We regularly host PHP programming marathons (next one in April > sponsored by Zend, PHPArch, and The Kompany) and we would be glad to > buy > some promotional materials from your site (e.g. t-shirts) and add them > as prizes in our contest. Definitely, as soon as we get the t-shirt stuff back up. > I would really be glad to be part of your advocacy team. My first > language is Italian so should you need some help with the manual > translations, let me know. Thank you! Definitely, more translators is always better. Sometime you should drop a line to Stefano, our Italian community person, at it@postgresql.org. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > > - We regularly host PHP programming marathons (next one in April > > sponsored by Zend, PHPArch, and The Kompany) and we would be glad to > > buy > > some promotional materials from your site (e.g. t-shirts) and add them > > as prizes in our contest. > > Definitely, as soon as we get the t-shirt stuff back up. http://store.pgsql.com/ ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hello, many thanks to Joshua Drake for the potentials writers list. I am currently in touch with 3 qualified PHP-Postgresql developers interested in writing for our php/ postgresql column. We should be live with the first articles by the end of next week. Now, some questions: -Mailing list last posts on our homepage (right column) I would like display the posts on the pgsql-php display on our site home via an XML feed. I assume there is no XML feed for http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-php/2004-02/index.php right ? I can buy the mailing lists archive on the store, just wondering if there is a possibility to pay for the archive and get it on rsync . If I have a way to sync with the lists, I could easily generate the xml feed. Are you currently storing all the postings in a database? -Logo usage: any particular restriction to display the postgresql logo in the php/postgresql column ? Cheers David Costa
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, David Costa wrote: > Hello, > many thanks to Joshua Drake for the potentials writers list. > I am currently in touch with 3 qualified PHP-Postgresql developers > interested in writing for our php/ postgresql > column. > > We should be live with the first articles by the end of next week. > > Now, some questions: > > -Mailing list last posts on our homepage (right column) > > I would like display the posts on the pgsql-php display on our site > home via an XML feed. > > I assume there is no XML feed for > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-php/2004-02/index.php right ? > > I can buy the mailing lists archive on the store, just wondering if > there is a possibility to pay for the archive and get it on rsync . > If I have a way to sync with the lists, I could easily generate the xml > feed. > > Are you currently storing all the postings in a database? no to storing the posts ... as to the xml feed ... how does one set that up? can you email me instructions? > -Logo usage: any particular restriction to display the postgresql logo > in the php/postgresql column ? none, plaster it everywhere :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Feb 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >> I assume there is no XML feed for >> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-php/2004-02/index.php right ? >> >> I can buy the mailing lists archive on the store, just wondering if >> there is a possibility to pay for the archive and get it on rsync . >> If I have a way to sync with the lists, I could easily generate the >> xml >> feed. >> >> Are you currently storing all the postings in a database? > > no to storing the posts ... > > as to the xml feed ... how does one set that up? can you email me > instructions? > I will try to work out a simple script and I will test it locally then email it to you in a day or two. If you don't use a db, are you parsing the emails directly from the list into html with that perl script right ? >> -Logo usage: any particular restriction to display the postgresql logo >> in the php/postgresql column ? > > none, plaster it everywhere :) > Will do :D > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services > (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: > 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, David Costa wrote: > If you don't use a db, are you parsing the emails directly from the list > into html with that perl script right ? this is correct ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hi! David Costa wrote: > my name is David Costa and I am the operator of a not for profit > website, dotgeek.org (http://dotgeek.org). > This is not my main occupation. I am a full time Professor in a private > graduate college here in Switzerland > and a direct contributor to PHP via Pear http://pear.php.net/user/gurugeek > > Dotgeek is focusing on PHP Development and Free Open Source PHP > Certification. Just today we started to host an official mirror of > postgresql and > I am extremely trilled by the array of possible advocacy toward PHP > developers. > > I have a number of plans for postgresql advocacy: I think that the most urgent thing in PostgreSQL advocacy is the update of its web presence. Right now all the advocacy ends as soon as someone clicks on the link and sees the abomination that is postgresql.org I am already working on the changes to website, just can't get any comments from the people who should (supposedly) be more interested in it than myself. If you are interested in helping, too, then here's how: 1) There is a well-hidden closed list for website development: pgsql-www. You can send a subscription request to it. If you pester the important people long enough on more public mailing lists (like here), your subscripion will be approved quite fast. 2) There is a module on gborg, it is called pgweb and contains most of the code for the website. Of course, database schema is conveniently hidden, but if you pester the important people long enough, you can have it. 3) Consult the archives for pgsql-www for the pointers on the things already done and that still need to be done. Comment on them. The most needed thing right now IMO is a professional looking design for the postgresql.org website. As Marc told me, the current one was done by his two year old child using crayons.
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote: > I think that the most urgent thing in PostgreSQL advocacy is the update of its > web presence. Right now all the advocacy ends as soon as someone clicks on the > link and sees the abomination that is postgresql.org > > I am already working on the changes to website, just can't get any comments from > the people who should (supposedly) be more interested in it than myself. > > If you are interested in helping, too, then here's how: > 1) There is a well-hidden closed list for website development: pgsql-www. You > can send a subscription request to it. If you pester the important people long > enough on more public mailing lists (like here), your subscripion will be > approved quite fast. > 2) There is a module on gborg, it is called pgweb and contains most of the code > for the website. Of course, database schema is conveniently hidden, but if you > pester the important people long enough, you can have it. > 3) Consult the archives for pgsql-www for the pointers on the things already > done and that still need to be done. Comment on them. > > The most needed thing right now IMO is a professional looking design for the > postgresql.org website. As Marc told me, the current one was done by his two > year old child using crayons. Alex: What you say is not as important as how you say it. Using the insults above will encourage support.
> > Alex: What you say is not as important as how you say it. Using the > insults above will encourage support. I don't see them as insults as much as statements of fact. Basically he is just saying what he experienced trying to help with the WWW project. Insults are typically a little different in wording: There is a "purposely" well hidden (because nobody really wants the help) pgsql-www list. If you are a jerk enough, the people over at pgsql-www think you are one of them and will subscribe you. That is an insult. His wording IMHO were just statements ;) Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
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On Feb 14, 2004, at 9:47 AM, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi! Hello Alexey, I know your from Pear, what a small world. Once again kudos for your HTML and HTTP packages, see my comments below: > I think that the most urgent thing in PostgreSQL advocacy is the > update of its web presence. Right now all the advocacy ends as soon as > someone clicks on the link and sees the abomination that is > postgresql.org > Alex, I do have a great deal of respect for your work. Please do the same with other volunteers on this list. PostgreSQL (like PHP and Pear) is lead and developed by volunteers. They kindly donate their time to the project. Regardless of the point you are trying to make, there are several ways to express yourself clearly and keeping the respect bar high enough at the same time. I don't think that the website is bad. In fact, I suggested some (non-design related) improvements and I received a prompt reply. I am working on something already more related to the functionality then the look & feel, and we will see. Have a look at http://www.gnu.org/ for example. Try to post something on their mailing list, tell Stallman that the site "sucks big time" :). Many other sites are pretty simple (e.g. slackware linux) because the team is focusing on the code more then the graphics. This is not bad at all !! > I am already working on the changes to website, just can't get any > comments from the people who should (supposedly) be more interested in > it than myself. > I had the privilege to lead some small open source project and I just think you mean well but your sarcasm might have disturbed some contributors. If that is the case, I am not surprised at all of the outcome. I want to give you a clear example to demonstrate that what you say is not accurate. At Dotgeek.org I first organized a php.net unofficialmirror. This because at PHP.net they have a policy "no more then 2 mirrors per country". Fair enough, I arranged the unofficial one at http://php.dotgeek.org It was all fine, then someone flamed the initiative and php.net webmasters changed their page to plaster every unofficial mirror with the "this is all unofficial" warning (http://php.dotgeek.org/mirror.php). Of course I will kill this unofficial mirror ASAP. Guess what. On Postgresql.org I received a reply to my proposal to establish an official mirror the same day. Within 24 hours our official mirror for both www and ftp was approved, up, and running. My point ? I found the postgresql.org team very responsive, professional and interested in contributions. > If you are interested in helping, too, then here's how: > 1) There is a well-hidden closed list for website development: > pgsql-www. You can send a subscription request to it. If you pester > the important people long enough on more public mailing lists (like > here), your subscripion will be approved quite fast. I can see the list at http://archives.postgresql.org/ why hidden ? :) > 2) There is a module on gborg, it is called pgweb and contains most of > the code for the website. Of course, database schema is conveniently > hidden, but if you pester the important people long enough, you can > have it. > 3) Consult the archives for pgsql-www for the pointers on the things > already done and that still need to be done. Comment on them. > > The most needed thing right now IMO is a professional looking design > for the postgresql.org website. As Marc told me, the current one was > done by his two year old child using crayons. your last comment is pretty sad. I didn't expect this from you. You are a talented programmer, why do you need to insult the work of others? Once again Marc and other senior people have been around for a long while. I would not like to have someone to jump up and tell me how to run the community, regardless of how opened the community is. Respect first. I will do my best to help and Advocate postgreSQL usage and migration to the php community. For the website, I will do my best to help out, if necessary. That said, if what I propose or do is not deem to be approved and adopted by the Project coordinator, that's life. I wouldn't feel that bad. Perhaps was not the right moment or perhaps my suggestion is not a priority. I think you should do the same and avoid insults/flames/trolling etc. That doesn't help. All the best, Regards David Costa
On 14 Feb 2004 at 7:40, Joshua Drake wrote: > > Alex: What you say is not as important as how you say it. Using the > > insults above will encourage support. That should be "will not encourage". > I don't see them as insults as much as statements of fact. Basically > he is just saying what he experienced trying to help with the WWW > project. > > Insults are typically a little different in wording: > > There is a "purposely" well hidden (because nobody really wants the > help) pgsql-www list. If you are a jerk enough, the people over at > pgsql-www think you are one of them and will subscribe you. > > That is an insult. His wording IMHO were just statements ;) Insults do not have to be explicit to be insults. But let us concentrate on the first part of my statement, not the second. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/
On Saturday 14 February 2004 10:47, David Costa wrote:
> Many other sites are pretty simple
> (e.g. slackware linux) because the team is focusing on the code more
> then the graphics.
>
Actually it's a point that seems to be lost on a lot of people. The folks who
try to keep the website going are all involved in at least 1 other project if
not several different initiatives. If someone wants to hire me full time to
work on the site, I'm willing to listen to proposals...
> Once again Marc and other senior people have been around for a long
> while. I would not like to have someone to jump up and tell me how to
> run the community, regardless of how opened the community is. Respect
> first.
<snip>
> I think you should do the same and avoid insults/flames/trolling etc.
> That doesn't help.
>
Thanks for being a voice of reason David.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Hi! Robert Treat wrote: >> Many other sites are pretty simple >>(e.g. slackware linux) because the team is focusing on the code more >>then the graphics. > > Actually it's a point that seems to be lost on a lot of people. The folks who > try to keep the website going are all involved in at least 1 other project if > not several different initiatives. If someone wants to hire me full time to > work on the site, I'm willing to listen to proposals... Of course there are these jerks who spend most of their time just flaming in the maillists: http://pear.php.net/user/avb
> Of course there are these jerks who spend most of their time just flaming in the > maillists: > http://pear.php.net/user/avb True :) > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi! > > David Costa wrote: > > my name is David Costa and I am the operator of a not for profit > > website, dotgeek.org (http://dotgeek.org). > > This is not my main occupation. I am a full time Professor in a private > > graduate college here in Switzerland > > and a direct contributor to PHP via Pear http://pear.php.net/user/gurugeek > > > > Dotgeek is focusing on PHP Development and Free Open Source PHP > > Certification. Just today we started to host an official mirror of > > postgresql and > > I am extremely trilled by the array of possible advocacy toward PHP > > developers. > > > > I have a number of plans for postgresql advocacy: > > I think that the most urgent thing in PostgreSQL advocacy is the update of its > web presence. Right now all the advocacy ends as soon as someone clicks on the > link and sees the abomination that is postgresql.org > > I am already working on the changes to website, just can't get any comments from > the people who should (supposedly) be more interested in it than myself. > > If you are interested in helping, too, then here's how: > 1) There is a well-hidden closed list for website development: pgsql-www. You > can send a subscription request to it. If you pester the important people long > enough on more public mailing lists (like here), your subscripion will be > approved quite fast. > 2) There is a module on gborg, it is called pgweb and contains most of the code > for the website. Of course, database schema is conveniently hidden, but if you > pester the important people long enough, you can have it. > 3) Consult the archives for pgsql-www for the pointers on the things already > done and that still need to be done. Comment on them. > > The most needed thing right now IMO is a professional looking design for the > postgresql.org website. As Marc told me, the current one was done by his two > year old child using crayons. Alexey, just curious, but are you *really* as stupid as you come across on the mailing lists? I can't recall the last thing that came out of you that has had an ounce of intelligence behind it, to the point that *I* am almost ready to black list your email address ... You remind me of the 15 year old script kiddies that used to jump into various IRC channels and get so proud cause they knew how to lock others out of those channels ... not very hard, nor requiring very much intelligence, but, hey .. as they say "small things amuse small minds" ... Quite frankly, if I have to listen to much more of the drivel coming out of your mouth, I will black list your email address, and most likely to the cheers of several others ... Learn to work *with* us, or just go away already ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> Alexey, just curious, but are you *really* as stupid as you come across on > the mailing lists? I can't recall the last thing that came out of you > that has had an ounce of intelligence behind it, to the point that *I* am > almost ready to black list your email address ... Then you best black list yourself for this remark, Marc. This was the most unproffessional, uncalled for remark I have heard from this community. It represents every FUD comment made about Open Source development in the popular press and I am significantly dissapointed that you would say it. > Learn to work *with* us, or just go away already ... Frankly, working WITH the community isn't easy. There is a huge if "it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Which is fine, except that there is a LOT broke and people don't pay attention to it and when people bring it up they get slammed. You may also want to take into account that Alexy is obviously not a native English speaker. His dialect is probably coming across harsher than is meant. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match > -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Frankly, working WITH the community isn't easy. There is a huge if "it > ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Which is fine, except that there > is a LOT broke and people don't pay attention to it and when people > bring it up they get slammed. The problem is that everyone on the list acknowledges that it *is* broken, and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list even welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody is welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... > You may also want to take into account that Alexy is obviously not a > native English speaker. His dialect is probably coming across harsher than > is meant. Odd, words from his own mouth state that he's doing it because he feels that a temper tantrum will get more done, faster ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list even > welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody is > welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... I guess I didn't get that from his posts. I just got that he is frustrated because he is passionate about PostgreSQL but it seems that the website and web community around it is so difficult to deal with. I actually don't know if the web community is difficult to deal with so I can speak to that. > > > You may also want to take into account that Alexy is obviously not a > > native English speaker. His dialect is probably coming across harsher than > > is meant. > > Odd, words from his own mouth state that he's doing it because he feels > that a temper tantrum will get more done, faster ... > Sure... but to some degree he is right. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list even > > welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody is > > welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... > > I guess I didn't get that from his posts. I just got that he is frustrated > because he is passionate about PostgreSQL but it seems that the website > and web community around it is so difficult to deal with. You must have missed his original thread then, when he vehemently(sp?) argued that we should give him full CVS access to change the web site because the mock up he showed us of what he wanted to do was sooooo vastly superior to what is there now ... > I actually don't know if the web community is difficult to deal with so > I can speak to that. They aren't ... there is a mailing list setup for discussing the technical www issues ... it is a fairly large list, but it isn't an open list (ie. subscriptions are mooerated to the extent of 'you want to be on it, let Dave know and he'll add you' ... basically, if you are interested enough in being a part of it to ask to be apart of it, you'll get added ... we have no 'full time, that is all they do, web developer', everything is like -hackesr ... a volunteer group that does what they can, when they can ... Alexey came along from the start with "give me the reins and I'll fix all the problems" ... and even that wouldn't been so bad, except he came out of no where, told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his way was better ... That put the hackles up on everyones necks who have been spending their spare time trying to clean up the web sites and improve them ... Nobody has once stated that Alexey doesn't have anything to contribute ... and alot of effort has been made by several to 'steer him' into the sequence of steps that has been determined need to be done to improve things ... but, I know in my case at least, any positive benefits Alexey can bring to the community are being heavily negated by his temper tantrums ... So, do we think Alexey has something to contribute? Yes, definitely ... > Sure... but to some degree he is right. Guess it depends on how you parent ... my 2 year old throws temper tantrums ... we put her on the floor and let her yell her lungs out until she decides that she's just not makign as much headway as she could be making ... Alexey, right now, is about in the same league ... he could get alot more done, faster, if we didn't have to wait out his temper tantrums ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hi! I am well aware my English can be bad, but not *that* bad. It is IMHO impossible to understand my messages in such a way, unless one really *wants* to. :[ Marc, with all due respect: 1) Please provide a link to the thread where I wanted full CVS access because of my superior mock up. 2) Please provide a link to where I "told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his way was better ..." 3) Are personal insults the preferred method of discussion in PostgreSQL community? Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>>and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list even >>>welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody is >>>welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... >> >>I guess I didn't get that from his posts. I just got that he is frustrated >>because he is passionate about PostgreSQL but it seems that the website >>and web community around it is so difficult to deal with. > > > You must have missed his original thread then, when he vehemently(sp?) > argued that we should give him full CVS access to change the web site > because the mock up he showed us of what he wanted to do was sooooo vastly > superior to what is there now ... > > >>I actually don't know if the web community is difficult to deal with so >>I can speak to that. > > > They aren't ... there is a mailing list setup for discussing the technical > www issues ... it is a fairly large list, but it isn't an open list (ie. > subscriptions are mooerated to the extent of 'you want to be on it, let > Dave know and he'll add you' ... basically, if you are interested enough > in being a part of it to ask to be apart of it, you'll get added ... we > have no 'full time, that is all they do, web developer', everything is > like -hackesr ... a volunteer group that does what they can, when they can > ... > > Alexey came along from the start with "give me the reins and I'll fix all > the problems" ... and even that wouldn't been so bad, except he came out > of no where, told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his way > was better ... > > That put the hackles up on everyones necks who have been spending their > spare time trying to clean up the web sites and improve them ... > > Nobody has once stated that Alexey doesn't have anything to contribute ... > and alot of effort has been made by several to 'steer him' into the > sequence of steps that has been determined need to be done to improve > things ... but, I know in my case at least, any positive benefits Alexey > can bring to the community are being heavily negated by his temper > tantrums ... > > So, do we think Alexey has something to contribute? Yes, definitely ... > > >>Sure... but to some degree he is right. > > > Guess it depends on how you parent ... my 2 year old throws temper > tantrums ... we put her on the floor and let her yell her lungs out until > she decides that she's just not makign as much headway as she could be > making ... > > Alexey, right now, is about in the same league ... he could get alot more > done, faster, if we didn't have to wait out his temper tantrums ...
On Feb 14, 2004, at 10:14 PM, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi! > > I am well aware my English can be bad, but not *that* bad. It is IMHO > impossible to understand my messages in such a way, unless one really > *wants* to. :[ > > Marc, with all due respect: > 1) Please provide a link to the thread where I wanted full CVS access > because of my superior mock up. > 2) Please provide a link to where I "told everyone they were doing it > all wrong, and that his way was better ..." > 3) Are personal insults the preferred method of discussion in > PostgreSQL community? > Oh no, now we are "show me where..." stage... Ehi look how much time is going wasted in this discussion. Marc summarized your previous posts on the www list where the tone was all but cordial. For one, saying that the current website is an "abomination" was offensive to the volunteers who did this in their own available spare time. You know that. But let's move on, we are all wasting time with arguments. You are a good developer. Don't let your manners jeopardize the whole effort which is very welcome. As you can see http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-02/msg00081.php things are moving so, what's the issue? Cheers David COsta > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>>> and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list >>>> even >>>> welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody >>>> is >>>> welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... >>> >>> I guess I didn't get that from his posts. I just got that he is >>> frustrated >>> because he is passionate about PostgreSQL but it seems that the >>> website >>> and web community around it is so difficult to deal with. >> You must have missed his original thread then, when he vehemently(sp?) >> argued that we should give him full CVS access to change the web site >> because the mock up he showed us of what he wanted to do was sooooo >> vastly >> superior to what is there now ... >>> I actually don't know if the web community is difficult to deal with >>> so >>> I can speak to that. >> They aren't ... there is a mailing list setup for discussing the >> technical >> www issues ... it is a fairly large list, but it isn't an open list >> (ie. >> subscriptions are mooerated to the extent of 'you want to be on it, >> let >> Dave know and he'll add you' ... basically, if you are interested >> enough >> in being a part of it to ask to be apart of it, you'll get added ... >> we >> have no 'full time, that is all they do, web developer', everything is >> like -hackesr ... a volunteer group that does what they can, when >> they can >> ... >> Alexey came along from the start with "give me the reins and I'll fix >> all >> the problems" ... and even that wouldn't been so bad, except he came >> out >> of no where, told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his >> way >> was better ... >> That put the hackles up on everyones necks who have been spending >> their >> spare time trying to clean up the web sites and improve them ... >> Nobody has once stated that Alexey doesn't have anything to >> contribute ... >> and alot of effort has been made by several to 'steer him' into the >> sequence of steps that has been determined need to be done to improve >> things ... but, I know in my case at least, any positive benefits >> Alexey >> can bring to the community are being heavily negated by his temper >> tantrums ... >> So, do we think Alexey has something to contribute? Yes, definitely >> ... >>> Sure... but to some degree he is right. >> Guess it depends on how you parent ... my 2 year old throws temper >> tantrums ... we put her on the floor and let her yell her lungs out >> until >> she decides that she's just not makign as much headway as she could be >> making ... >> Alexey, right now, is about in the same league ... he could get alot >> more >> done, faster, if we didn't have to wait out his temper tantrums ... > > > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
> 3) Are personal insults the preferred method of discussion in PostgreSQL community? Alex, please do not pursue this. Marc was wrong in his response but continuing at least this part of the thread will not help the situation. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >>>and that it does *need* to be fixed ... hell, everyone on the list even > >>>welcomes Alexey's input and work towards fixing it ... what nobody is > >>>welcoming is his "do it my way or no way" attitude ... > >> > >>I guess I didn't get that from his posts. I just got that he is frustrated > >>because he is passionate about PostgreSQL but it seems that the website > >>and web community around it is so difficult to deal with. > > > > > > You must have missed his original thread then, when he vehemently(sp?) > > argued that we should give him full CVS access to change the web site > > because the mock up he showed us of what he wanted to do was sooooo vastly > > superior to what is there now ... > > > > > >>I actually don't know if the web community is difficult to deal with so > >>I can speak to that. > > > > > > They aren't ... there is a mailing list setup for discussing the technical > > www issues ... it is a fairly large list, but it isn't an open list (ie. > > subscriptions are mooerated to the extent of 'you want to be on it, let > > Dave know and he'll add you' ... basically, if you are interested enough > > in being a part of it to ask to be apart of it, you'll get added ... we > > have no 'full time, that is all they do, web developer', everything is > > like -hackesr ... a volunteer group that does what they can, when they can > > ... > > > > Alexey came along from the start with "give me the reins and I'll fix all > > the problems" ... and even that wouldn't been so bad, except he came out > > of no where, told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his way > > was better ... > > > > That put the hackles up on everyones necks who have been spending their > > spare time trying to clean up the web sites and improve them ... > > > > Nobody has once stated that Alexey doesn't have anything to contribute ... > > and alot of effort has been made by several to 'steer him' into the > > sequence of steps that has been determined need to be done to improve > > things ... but, I know in my case at least, any positive benefits Alexey > > can bring to the community are being heavily negated by his temper > > tantrums ... > > > > So, do we think Alexey has something to contribute? Yes, definitely ... > > > > > >>Sure... but to some degree he is right. > > > > > > Guess it depends on how you parent ... my 2 year old throws temper > > tantrums ... we put her on the floor and let her yell her lungs out until > > she decides that she's just not makign as much headway as she could be > > making ... > > > > Alexey, right now, is about in the same league ... he could get alot more > > done, faster, if we didn't have to wait out his temper tantrums ... > > -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead
> You must have missed his original thread then, when he vehemently(sp?) > argued that we should give him full CVS access to change the web site > because the mock up he showed us of what he wanted to do was sooooo vastly > superior to what is there now ... Must have... the first one I saw was just complaints about getting communication. > Alexey came along from the start with "give me the reins and I'll fix all > the problems" ... and even that wouldn't been so bad, except he came out Well that won't work... I have tried that ;) > of no where, told everyone they were doing it all wrong, and that his way > was better ... > > Sure... but to some degree he is right. > > Alexey, right now, is about in the same league ... he could get alot more > done, faster, if we didn't have to wait out his temper tantrums ... > O.k. fair enough but one would have to ask what brought them on. Perhaps he is just responding (albeit badly) to frustration that many people feel trying to deal with the community. The difference is that some people just sit there, some move on (like Napier), some put up with it, some explode. All of these people have valid concerns that we probably need to address.. If 1 person is screaming... 100 people are upset and not saying anything. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead
On 14 Feb 2004 at 12:14, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Sure... but to some degree he is right. Whether or not he is right is overwhelmed by his abrasive methods. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/
Hi! David Costa wrote: > Oh no, now we are "show me where..." stage... > > Ehi look how much time is going wasted in this discussion. > > Marc summarized your previous posts on the www list where the tone was > all but cordial. > > For one, saying that the current website is an "abomination" was > offensive to the volunteers who did > this in their own available spare time. You know that. But let's move > on, we are all wasting time with arguments. Of course you and Joshua are right, and I won't pursue this discussion. I only want to point out some fairly obvious things: 1) There is a subtle difference between critisizing someone's work and atacking someone personally. 2) Lots of people, including myself, do Open Source work in their spare time and as volunteers. This is not an excuse for doing this work badly and for inability to listen to the critique.
Guys, I really don't feel that this discussion has any place on the Advocacy List. It's not making any of the participants look good ... and is *certainly* not contributing to the website overhaul. Can we just drop it? -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Hello Everyone :) It was a long day but I managed to finalise a newsfeed from the postgresql.org website. You can see it at http://www.dotgeek.org/ on the right column As you might now, XML Feeds, made available under the rdf/rss format are a tremendous tool. O'Reilly on lamp is using this extensively http://www.onlamp.com/ to aggregate news from several sources. They would certainly add some news from postgresql and I am sure that many of the postgresql users will be more than glad to add the news in their website. Basically everyone with a website and an rss parser can add the postgresql.org news anytime using our raw feed at http://www.dotgeek.org/pgnews/news.rss The news are first parsed, then stored on a postgresql database in our server. For the feed I used PHP, Pear XML_Serializer, and a custom RSS parser. On the next few days we will move on as planned adding a column at dotgeek entirely dedicated to PHP&PostgreSQL development. The first articles will be written by me and Hans-Jürgen Schönig. The next ideal step could be XML feeds for the mailing lists. Oh.. of course if Marc or Dave would like to see/try the sources for an official adoption, all yours, not urgent thou. 1:25 AM here, time to go home. I will keep you posted on my Advocacy initiatives, hope you don't mind ;) All the best, Regards David Costa
On Feb 17, 2004, at 4:45 AM, Robert Treat wrote: > Wow, very cool David. Thank you! I am far from an XML expert but with so many friends on the php pear development team it was just a 7 hours job :D > This is something we have talked about having before, > and we seem so close now I think we need to find a way to make it > happen. > David, I noticed your news feed points to us19 rather than the main > server... > just curious if there was any reason why? Egoism ;) ?? Kidding of course. I am not sure how this might effect the load on the main www.postgresql.org for one. if someone adds the rss feed to his site, he might hit the server every hour or every 30 minutes. Many news aggregators, which are now default in a number of CMS like Postnuke, Drupal, Phpnuke, Slashcode do that and you need to be careful if you have some limits on the server traffic. The second reason is because this is not something official and I didn't want to bother anyone. > I am thinking if we could set up > www.postgresql.org/news.rss we could make that a public news feed that > folks > could pull from. Sure, I am ready anytime but I would like to further explain: I am currently parsing the news from our mirror, adding the news on the database and then I manipulate the news for the feed. This is not the normal way to do it. Assuming that the news are already in a database, one of my scripts might not be required on the official site. Secondly, I think we need to provide a number of feeds aka news and a feed for each of the main mailing lists. > It would also be included in the mirror system if someone > needed to pull a local feed (though it would be slightly delayed). > The only > question I would have is how does this fit in with the web code > rewrite / > translation stuff? I am not sure. For the time being you can use our "alpha" feed url. Talking about advocacy, I think that the feeds are a great tool. The second easy to implement feature is the ip to country. This will display, on the download page, something like this " We detected that you are from $country" example http://www.php.net/my.php Advantage? this will enhance the overall browsing and download experience. Visitors in Austria will hit the local mirror with a better performance and less load on the main box. Eventually I am not suggesting a quick adoption of these tools. I will keep working on these features and if there is an interest for official adoption, I am here to help as always. All the best, David Costa > Robert Treat > > On Monday 16 February 2004 19:27, David Costa wrote: >> Hello Everyone :) >> >> It was a long day but I managed to finalise a newsfeed from the >> postgresql.org website. >> >> You can see it at http://www.dotgeek.org/ on the right column >> >> As you might now, XML Feeds, made available under the rdf/rss format >> are a tremendous tool. O'Reilly on lamp is using this extensively >> http://www.onlamp.com/ to aggregate news from several sources. They >> would certainly add some news from postgresql and I am sure that many >> of the postgresql users will be more than glad to add the news >> in their website. >> >> Basically everyone with a website and an rss parser can add the >> postgresql.org news anytime using our raw feed at >> http://www.dotgeek.org/pgnews/news.rss >> >> The news are first parsed, then stored on a postgresql database in our >> server. For the feed I used PHP, Pear XML_Serializer, and a custom RSS >> parser. >> >> On the next few days we will move on as planned adding a column at >> dotgeek entirely dedicated to PHP&PostgreSQL development. >> >> The first articles will be written by me and Hans-Jürgen Schönig. >> >> The next ideal step could be XML feeds for the mailing lists. >> >> Oh.. of course if Marc or Dave would like to see/try the sources for >> an >> official adoption, all yours, not urgent thou. >> >> 1:25 AM here, time to go home. I will keep you posted on my Advocacy >> initiatives, hope you don't mind ;) >> >> All the best, >> Regards >> David Costa >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------(end of >> broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if >> your >> joining column's datatypes do not match > > -- > Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > If 1 person is screaming... 100 people are upset and not saying anything. There is a lot of truth in this statement. At this point, let's do something/anything, to get things moving. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > If 1 person is screaming... 100 people are upset and not saying anything. > > There is a lot of truth in this statement. At this point, let's do > something/anything, to get things moving. Long past this point now :) > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road > + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 > ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664