Re: PHP/Postgresql Advocacy - Mailing list pgsql-advocacy

On Feb 14, 2004, at 9:47 AM, Alexey Borzov wrote:

> Hi!

Hello Alexey, I know your from Pear, what a small world. Once again
kudos for your HTML and HTTP packages, see my comments below:

> I think that the most urgent thing in PostgreSQL advocacy is the
> update of its web presence. Right now all the advocacy ends as soon as
> someone clicks on the link and sees the abomination that is
> postgresql.org
>

Alex, I do have a great deal of respect for your work.  Please do the
same with other volunteers on this list.

PostgreSQL (like PHP and Pear) is lead and developed by volunteers.
They kindly donate their time to the project.
Regardless of the point you are trying to make, there are several ways
to express yourself clearly and  keeping the respect bar high enough at
the same time.

I don't think that the website is bad. In fact, I suggested some
(non-design related) improvements and I received a prompt reply. I am
working on something already more related
to the functionality then the look & feel, and we will see.  Have a
look at http://www.gnu.org/ for example. Try to post something on their
  mailing list, tell Stallman
that the site "sucks big time" :).  Many other sites are pretty simple
(e.g. slackware linux) because the team is focusing on the code more
then the graphics.

This is not bad at all !!

> I am already working on the changes to website, just can't get any
> comments from the people who should (supposedly) be more interested in
> it than myself.
>
I had the privilege to lead some small open source project and I just
think you mean well but your sarcasm might have disturbed some
contributors. If that is the case,
I am not surprised at all of the outcome.

  I want to give you a clear example to demonstrate that what you say is
not accurate.

At Dotgeek.org I first organized a php.net unofficialmirror.
This because at PHP.net they have a policy "no more then 2 mirrors per
country". Fair enough, I arranged the unofficial one at
http://php.dotgeek.org

It was all fine, then someone flamed the initiative and php.net
webmasters changed their page to plaster every unofficial mirror with
the "this is all unofficial" warning
(http://php.dotgeek.org/mirror.php).  Of course I will kill this
unofficial mirror ASAP.

Guess what. On Postgresql.org I received a reply to my proposal to
establish an official mirror the same day. Within 24 hours our official
mirror for both www and ftp was
approved, up, and running.

My point ? I found the postgresql.org team very responsive,
professional and interested in contributions.


> If you are interested in helping, too, then here's how:
> 1) There is a well-hidden closed list for website development:
> pgsql-www. You can send a subscription request to it. If you pester
> the important people long enough on more public mailing lists (like
> here), your subscripion will be approved quite fast.

I can see the list at http://archives.postgresql.org/ why hidden ? :)

> 2) There is a module on gborg, it is called pgweb and contains most of
> the code for the website. Of course, database schema is conveniently
> hidden, but if you pester the important people long enough, you can
> have it.
> 3) Consult the archives for pgsql-www for the pointers on the things
> already done and that still need to be done. Comment on them.
>
> The most needed thing right now IMO is a professional looking design
> for the postgresql.org website. As Marc told me, the current one was
> done by his two year old child using crayons.

your last comment is pretty sad. I didn't expect this from you. You are
a talented programmer, why do you need to insult the work of others?

Once again Marc and other senior people have been around for a long
while. I would not like to have someone to jump up and tell me how to
run the community, regardless of how opened the community is. Respect
first.

I will do my best to help and Advocate postgreSQL usage and migration
to the php community. For the website, I will do my best to help out,
if necessary.

That said, if what I propose or do is not deem to be approved and
adopted by the Project coordinator, that's life. I wouldn't feel that
bad. Perhaps was not the right
moment or perhaps my suggestion is not a priority.

I think you should do the same and avoid insults/flames/trolling etc.
That doesn't help.

All the best,
Regards
David Costa