Thread: Re: PostgreSQL certifications?
cool_screen_name90001@yahoo.com (CSN) writes: > Just curious - are there any PostgreSQL > certifications, or plans for them? I ask because I > just became aware of two for mysql: > > http://vue.com/mysql/ > http://www.mysql.com/certification/ A while back, PostgreSQL Inc had some involvement with building something of a "skills evaluation" test. But it isn't totally evident how this is _Truly Useful_. Certification historically has three characteristics that considered valuable: 1. They provide a way of extracting money from would-be advocates. Which is obviously beneficial for MySQL AB. 2. After someone has spent $400 on a MySQL certification, they'll doubtless be a fan of getting some kind of value out of it. 3. In the Oracle market, if you have a certification, it may prove easier to get a job, because employers go out looking for OCP certifications. Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a certification being of vast practical value. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="libertyrms.info" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; <http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/> Christopher Browne (416) 646 3304 x124 (land)
You usually have a good grasp of PHB thinking, so I'm surprised to see you post this. In todays job markets PHB and PHR (pointy haired recruiters) tend to have little to no knowledge about technical issues, so they rely on "certifications" to decide who has technical qualifications. And while your right that there isn't much market for PostgreSQL DBA's, if one were vying for a php/perl/java/c/c++ programmer position, the ability to put on a resume that you are a "certified /somedatabase/ administrator" obviously benefits. Especially if you're a person who knows enough about postgresql that you could administer it, even though your primary position might be an application developer. (I used to work with just such a person). PHB/PHR types love certifications, and if your skill is in postgresql, you need a postgresql certification. (Admittedly this doesn't solve the logistical problem of coming up with a certification, but that doesn't belie the benefits of having one) On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 17:07, Christopher Browne wrote: > cool_screen_name90001@yahoo.com (CSN) writes: > > Just curious - are there any PostgreSQL > > certifications, or plans for them? I ask because I > > just became aware of two for mysql: > > > > http://vue.com/mysql/ > > http://www.mysql.com/certification/ > > A while back, PostgreSQL Inc had some involvement with building > something of a "skills evaluation" test. > > But it isn't totally evident how this is _Truly Useful_. > > Certification historically has three characteristics that considered > valuable: > > 1. They provide a way of extracting money from would-be advocates. > > Which is obviously beneficial for MySQL AB. > > 2. After someone has spent $400 on a MySQL certification, they'll > doubtless be a fan of getting some kind of value out of it. > > 3. In the Oracle market, if you have a certification, it may prove > easier to get a job, because employers go out looking for OCP > certifications. > > Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see > dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a > certification being of vast practical value. > -- > let name="cbbrowne" and tld="libertyrms.info" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; > <http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/> > Christopher Browne > (416) 646 3304 x124 (land) > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when xzilla@users.sourceforge.net (Robert Treat) wrote: > You usually have a good grasp of PHB thinking, so I'm surprised to > see you post this. It distresses me greatly that it appears I have this "grasp" :-). Apparently too many years spent at Sabre and SHL (now part of EDS), all places very Dilbertian in their operation... > PHB/PHR types love certifications, and if your skill is in > postgresql, you need a postgresql certification. >> Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see >> dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a >> certification being of vast practical value. You may be right, but that "need" does not, at this point, justify the effort required to put together a certification that isn't otherwise of any grand practical value. Having a piece of paper would be well and good, but it's a lot of work to set up the way of issuing that piece of paper, and the other benefits just aren't there now. As I said, if there were dozens of job openings being advertised that required PG experience, a certification program could become valuable. But the numbers aren't there. And I am skeptical of the value, too. It does not seem clear to me that having LPI Linux "certification" is of great value, for instance, and there's certainly some buzz of popularity there. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="cbbrowne.com" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linuxdistributions.html "If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot of different places, just write a Unix operating system." -- Linus Torvalds
Christopher Browne wrote: > A while back, PostgreSQL Inc had some involvement with building > something of a "skills evaluation" test. > > But it isn't totally evident how this is _Truly Useful_. [snip] > Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see > dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a > certification being of vast practical value. In Australia, there are legislated requirements to spend 10% of the payroll on training. Thus if an empoloyee is being paid $30kpa, the employer is expected to spend $3kpa on training that employee. This legislation was introduced to (amongst other things) prevent employers working employees into the ground and discharging them into the employment market with no currently valuable skills. As such, it would be extremely useful for Australian open-source advocates to be able to attend training courses dealing with PostgreSQL - first it means the training guarantee can be met, second it means that the PostgreSQL DBAs and programmers in an organisation can get in contact with other PostgreSQL users and perhaps even share experiences in solving tricky problems. Training your employees is as much about making your workforce as effective as possible as it is about giving your employees new "checkbox items" on their resume. From the employee's point of view, training courses aren't just about getting a certificate - they're also about building social networks and having the chance to see someone else explain things you thought you already knew, and perhaps even learning a new way to treat an "old" problem. Regards Alex Satrapa
Alex Satrapa writes: > As such, it would be extremely useful for Australian open-source > advocates to be able to attend training courses dealing with PostgreSQL PostgreSQL training courses are available. Maybe not in your neighbourhood yet, but it's not a problem in principle. Creating and running a certification program is a different matter. -- Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
* Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@libertyrms.info> wrote: <snip> > Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see > dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a > certification being of vast practical value. ACK. But a training could be a good job. After succeeding this training, you'd also get a certificate, but that's something completely different. cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with the supply demand argument. I just went through a 100+ hour evaluation of 4 database products for selection in an enterprise environment. Approx 200 databases for a total of 11+GB of data with 4,500 users accross 110 departments. A substantial undertaking. One of the criteria was "Can our DBA team get formal training/certification to support the selected product in our environment?" Without this, the organization is reluctant to even consider rolling PostgreSQL our in a production environment, regardless of who thinks it's good, how much it costs or any other technical reason. The IT staff never gets an oportunity to showcase PostgreSQL because it is never put into production. If it's never in production, there is never a job oportunity, and without the job oportunity, the PostgreSQL community never create training/certification. This is an endless circle. Evan Rempel. On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:47:47 +0200 > From: Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> > To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] PostgreSQL certifications? > > * Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@libertyrms.info> wrote: > > <snip> > > Until there is a job market that's active enough that you can see > > dozens of PG jobs listed that need to be filled, I can't see a > > certification being of vast practical value. > ACK. > But a training could be a good job. After succeeding this training, > you'd also get a certificate, but that's something completely different. > > > cu > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service > > phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ > fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de > cellphone: +49 174 7066481 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > -- Evan Rempel erempel@uvic.ca Senior Programmer Analyst 250.721.7691 Computing Services University of Victoria
* Evan Rempel <erempel@UVic.CA> wrote: <snip> > One of the criteria was "Can our DBA team get formal > training/certification to support the selected product in our > environment?" Why such criteria ? What do you hope to get from such an "certification" ? If I look at the MSCE stuff, I dont know if is meant as a april joke or not. Other "certifications" the same. Most of them I can't really take serious. So if you dont have a in-deep look at the certification criteria, then I cannot circumvent calling this decision just stupid. (of course those decisions are quite normal, as well as "database engineers" in big companies, who didnt understand the concept of indices!) <snip> > and without the job oportunity, the PostgreSQL community never create > training/certification. This is an endless circle. No, training and certification are (IMHO) some different pair of shoes. An good training probably should end up in some kind of certificate, but many many "certificates" out there are just to produce income for some companies and dont have much to do with real practise. I'm really for a postgresql training program with some strict and publically available rules. Maybe many things can be done also as an opensource project. The major training guidlines certification criteria *must* be opensource of course. If there're some more folks here willing to work on that, I'd suggest setting up an own maillist for that :) cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > * Evan Rempel <erempel@UVic.CA> wrote: > > <snip> > > One of the criteria was "Can our DBA team get formal > > training/certification to support the selected product in our > > environment?" > Why such criteria ? > What do you hope to get from such an "certification" ? > If I look at the MSCE stuff, I dont know if is meant as a april joke > or not. Other "certifications" the same. Most of them I can't really > take serious. > > So if you dont have a in-deep look at the certification criteria, then > I cannot circumvent calling this decision just stupid. (of course those > decisions are quite normal, as well as "database engineers" in big > companies, who didnt understand the concept of indices!) Spoken like a true technical specialist :-( Basically, we already have a whole bunch of databases. We already have staff trained and certified on Oracle. Our managmenent is already paying heavily for Oracle Licences. Our IT staff (not DBAs) says "We can save a buch of money, and not loose any features (that we are using) by swithcing to PostgreSQL". Management says "Fine, tell me which course to pay for, so the DBAs can get trained and certified on this stuff and start the switch over. Ball stops rolling. Project dies. We continue to pay money for Oracle. None of this is my decision, but that's the problem. The NON-TECHNICAL people get to make the decisions. I suspect that our organization is not much different form most others. -- Evan Rempel erempel@uvic.ca Senior Programmer Analyst 250.721.7691 Computing Services University of Victoria
> Basically, we already have a whole bunch of databases. > We already have staff trained and certified on Oracle. > Our managmenent is already paying heavily for Oracle Licences. I've been here before. Hire Bruce to go in and give his standard training presentation and have a Dave Cramer or Josh Berkus onsite for the following week for hands on assistance. Nab a support contract from Command Prompt or PGsql Inc. to deal with ongoing support issues. There is a ton of commercial software that doesn't offer certs -- just training so this is often good enough.
* Evan Rempel <erempel@UVic.CA> wrote: I already answered you posting, but since my mail didnt come back to my inbox again, I'll repeat the main point: <snip> > Without this, the organization is reluctant to even consider rolling > PostgreSQL our in a production environment, regardless of who thinks it's > good, how much it costs or any other technical reason. The IT staff never > gets an oportunity to showcase PostgreSQL because it is never put into > production. If it's never in production, there is never a job oportunity, > and without the job oportunity, the PostgreSQL community never create > training/certification. This is an endless circle. If we sit down an set up clear and public criteria coupled with tests which really make much sense in practise, I'm pro this and I'd like to contribute to such a project. Are there some more folks interested ? I vote for setting up an own maillist for this project. cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
* Evan Rempel <erempel@UVic.CA> wrote: <snip> > > So if you dont have a in-deep look at the certification criteria, then > > I cannot circumvent calling this decision just stupid. (of course those > > decisions are quite normal, as well as "database engineers" in big > > companies, who didnt understand the concept of indices!) > > Spoken like a true technical specialist :-( well, I tend to call myself a technical specialist ;-) <snip> > Our IT staff (not DBAs) says "We can save a buch of money, and not loose > any features (that we are using) by swithcing to PostgreSQL". Management > says "Fine, tell me which course to pay for, so the DBAs can get trained > and certified on this stuff and start the switch over. Ball stops rolling. > Project dies. We continue to pay money for Oracle. Well, then lets have a look at the Oracle certs and setup our own ones adopted for pgsql. <snip> > None of this is my decision, but that's the problem. The NON-TECHNICAL > people get to make the decisions. > > I suspect that our organization is not much different form most others. Well if these tie-carrier folks want such stupid thing and are willing to pay good for that, okay why not giving them their food ... that's captialism ;-) cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service phone: +49 36207 519931 www: http://www.metux.de/ fax: +49 36207 519932 email: contact@metux.de cellphone: +49 174 7066481 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- DSL ab 0 Euro. -- statische IP -- UUCP -- Hosting -- Webshops -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, erempel@uvic.ca (Evan Rempel) transmitted: > I disagree with the supply demand argument. > > I just went through a 100+ hour evaluation of 4 database products for > selection in an enterprise environment. Approx 200 databases for a total > of 11+GB of data with 4,500 users accross 110 departments. A substantial > undertaking. > > One of the criteria was "Can our DBA team get formal > training/certification to support the selected product in our > environment?" > > Without this, the organization is reluctant to even consider rolling > PostgreSQL our in a production environment, regardless of who thinks > it's good, how much it costs or any other technical reason. The IT > staff never gets an oportunity to showcase PostgreSQL because it is > never put into production. If it's never in production, there is > never a job oportunity, and without the job oportunity, the > PostgreSQL community never create training/certification. This is an > endless circle. Does your organization require a "certification program" for every piece of software they install? -> Are you required to be a ViCP? (Vi-Certified Programmer) -> How about GCC certification? -> Remarkably enough, despite the absence of a certification program, Apache has proven very popular, indeed, more popular than IIS, which also lacks a certification program. -> Are any of your people BASH-certified? How about their Ksh certification? (I am quite sure that nobody is COMMAND.COM-certified.) In the absence of these certifications, it would be just stupid for organizations to adopt any of these tools, as it would demonstrably impossible for them to be supportable in said absence. I'm being a little sarcastic here, but it sure seems odd that those pieces of software have grown so popular despite the complete absence of relevant certifications if certifications were truly so important. Reality is that putting together certification programs is a sizable, bureaucratically-challenging sort of task that _isn't_ something that Tom Lane or Bruce Momjian should drop development work to work on. Whatever the would-be demand, it has not been of a nature that has drawn anyone out of the woodwork to do it. I think the PostgreSQL Inc guys out in Nova Scotia had _something_ happening a year or so ago, but it evidently wasn't something that could turn into obvious advocacy efforts. The fact that you think you need it does not magically result in other people concluding that it becomes their responsibility to provide it; that's the way open source communities work... -- select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'cbbrowne.com'; http://cbbrowne.com/info/finances.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #65. "If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Christopher Browne wrote: > In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, erempel@uvic.ca (Evan Rempel) transmitted: > > I disagree with the supply demand argument. > > > > I just went through a 100+ hour evaluation of 4 database products for > > selection in an enterprise environment. Approx 200 databases for a total > > of 11+GB of data with 4,500 users accross 110 departments. A substantial > > undertaking. > > > > One of the criteria was "Can our DBA team get formal > > training/certification to support the selected product in our > > environment?" > > > > Without this, the organization is reluctant to even consider rolling > > PostgreSQL our in a production environment, regardless of who thinks > > it's good, how much it costs or any other technical reason. The IT > > staff never gets an oportunity to showcase PostgreSQL because it is > > never put into production. If it's never in production, there is > > never a job oportunity, and without the job oportunity, the > > PostgreSQL community never create training/certification. This is an > > endless circle. > > Does your organization require a "certification program" for every > piece of software they install? Not all pieces. Which ones? The ones that hold our data. It's not really certification either, but approved training (are they the same?). The databases, the backup system, the storage area network. Components that merely transfer the data, such as samba and apache are not products that require certification. > > -> Are you required to be a ViCP? (Vi-Certified Programmer) > > -> How about GCC certification? > > -> Remarkably enough, despite the absence of a certification > program, Apache has proven very popular, indeed, more popular > than IIS, which also lacks a certification program. > > -> Are any of your people BASH-certified? How about their Ksh > certification? (I am quite sure that nobody is > COMMAND.COM-certified.) > > In the absence of these certifications, it would be just stupid for > organizations to adopt any of these tools, as it would demonstrably > impossible for them to be supportable in said absence. > > I'm being a little sarcastic here, but it sure seems odd that those > pieces of software have grown so popular despite the complete absence > of relevant certifications if certifications were truly so important. > > Reality is that putting together certification programs is a sizable, > bureaucratically-challenging sort of task that _isn't_ something that > Tom Lane or Bruce Momjian should drop development work to work on. Agreed. I'm not really interested in certification so much as I am in training that lives up to an approved level. The next step is "approved by whom?" In light of OSS, approved by the development team would be sufficient. > > Whatever the would-be demand, it has not been of a nature that has > drawn anyone out of the woodwork to do it. I think the PostgreSQL Inc > guys out in Nova Scotia had _something_ happening a year or so ago, > but it evidently wasn't something that could turn into obvious > advocacy efforts. > > The fact that you think you need it does not magically result in other > people concluding that it becomes their responsibility to provide it; > that's the way open source communities work... Once again I agree. I'm just in a position that after 4 years of demonstrating that psql works, is stable, scalable and maintainable, I still can't get any interest from management. They was some form of guarantee that the DBA's can work with postgresql PRIOR to installing it. They want to send the DBA for training, but with no experience with the product, and no real guidance from www.postgresql.org as to where "Official" training can be obtained, they won't send the DBA's, thus they never get thier assurances, and they never really get interested in postgresql. Perhaps it's my approach that is the fundamental problem in all of this :-( Evan Rempel <erempel@UVic.CA> Senior Programmer Analyst University of Victoria
Evan Rempel wrote: > Once again I agree. I'm just in a position that after 4 years of > demonstrating that psql works, is stable, scalable and maintainable, > I still can't get any interest from management. They was some form of > guarantee that the DBA's can work with postgresql PRIOR to installing > it. They want to send the DBA for training, but with no experience > with the product, and no real guidance from www.postgresql.org as to > where "Official" training can be obtained, they won't send the DBA's, > thus they never get thier assurances, and they never really get > interested in postgresql. If you want an "official" trace of things then downloading some code from the internet is probably the first mistake. Get a support contract, get supported code, and make sure documentation and training is included in the package. I'm sure you'll find something here: http://techdocs.postgresql.org/companies.php
>If we sit down an set up clear and public criteria coupled with tests >which really make much sense in practise, I'm pro this and I'd like to >contribute to such a project. > >Are there some more folks interested ? > > > I have my own idea how something like this should develop. I would be happy to doneate some time on this as well. Not sure how much I can donate (working full time for myself). Here is my idea: 1) Set up a peer reviewed outline of basic database and PostgreSQL related skills we would like to see a qualified PostgreSQL administrator have. 2) Have community contributed tutorials on these ideas and/or links to other documentation. These would also be peer reviewed. 3) Perhaps eventually, we would need some form of organization which could approve third party curriculums 4) Eventually, we could approve third party certifications. I see this as a long-term project which may or may not lead to a formal certification process. Best Wishes, Chris Travers Metatron Technology Consulting >I vote for setting up an own maillist for this project. > > >cu > >