Thread: Need CDs, Brochures, Swag for Comdex
Folks,
We're going to need some things for Comdex:
1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include
installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below):
PostgreSQL 7.4
PGAdmin III
PhpPgAdmin 3.0
eRServer
Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits).
This means we need:
a) someone to put together a CD image with all of the above;
b) someone to design CD labels
c) someone (several someones?) to donate cd-burning.
2) Banner: I'd like to have a banner of some sort. Volunteer designers? It
should be simple so that we can re-use it in the future. Maybe just
PostgreSQL and the elephant. I can probably do this, especially if anyone
can give me tips on fonts.
3) Brochure: We need a PostgreSQL 7.4 Brochure. I really, really need
someone to volunteer to put this together; there's no way I'm going to get it
done and my design skills suck. Please?
4) Not MySQL: Ian, I could use the "distilled" version of your "why not
MySQL" list, something suitable for a 2-sided B/W flyer with large type
headings.
5) Schwag: I'll talk to Marc about t-shirts etc.
--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
Larry, > > We're going to need some things for Comdex: > Which is when? (I can't track of the trade show schedule). November 16-20. But most of this stuff will have to be done weeks ahead of time. You can certainly burn a couple hundred cds there and ship them to me. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
--On Thursday, September 04, 2003 13:36:24 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > Folks, > > We're going to need some things for Comdex: Which is when? (I can't track of the trade show schedule). > > 1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include > installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): > PostgreSQL 7.4 > PGAdmin III > PhpPgAdmin 3.0 > eRServer > Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits). > This means we need: > a) someone to put together a CD image with all of the above; > b) someone to design CD labels > c) someone (several someones?) to donate cd-burning. I can help with c). (I'm in Dallas/Ft. Worth TX, so I don't know how useful that is, though). -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749
--On Thursday, September 04, 2003 14:24:07 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > Larry, > >> > We're going to need some things for Comdex: >> Which is when? (I can't track of the trade show schedule). > > November 16-20. But most of this stuff will have to be done weeks ahead > of time. > > You can certainly burn a couple hundred cds there and ship them to me. Let me know when, and where I can get the ISO, and I'll burn what I can. LER -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749
I'll see what I can come up with for the cd-cover and get something to the list tonight or tomorrow morning. Once there is an iso, I can burn a bunch of cd's as well. Gavin Josh Berkus wrote: >Folks, > >We're going to need some things for Comdex: > >1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include >installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): > PostgreSQL 7.4 > PGAdmin III > PhpPgAdmin 3.0 > eRServer > Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits). > This means we need: > a) someone to put together a CD image with all of the above; > b) someone to design CD labels > c) someone (several someones?) to donate cd-burning. > >2) Banner: I'd like to have a banner of some sort. Volunteer designers? It >should be simple so that we can re-use it in the future. Maybe just >PostgreSQL and the elephant. I can probably do this, especially if anyone >can give me tips on fonts. > >3) Brochure: We need a PostgreSQL 7.4 Brochure. I really, really need >someone to volunteer to put this together; there's no way I'm going to get it >done and my design skills suck. Please? > >4) Not MySQL: Ian, I could use the "distilled" version of your "why not >MySQL" list, something suitable for a 2-sided B/W flyer with large type >headings. > >5) Schwag: I'll talk to Marc about t-shirts etc. > > >
Hi all See http://www.cornelia-boenigk.de/cover/cover.html and as small 'powered by'-pics at http://www.postgres.de/ I can help with layout/design (but leave the wording to the native speakers;-) Regards Conni -- Datenbanklösungen + PostgreSQL + Webdesign http://www.cornelia-boenigk.de | http://www.pgsql.info http://www.dpunkt.de/buch/3-89864-175-9.html
В Чтв, 04.09.2003, в 22:36, Josh Berkus пишет: > Folks, > > We're going to need some things for Comdex: > > 1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include > installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): > PostgreSQL 7.4 > PGAdmin III > PhpPgAdmin 3.0 > eRServer > Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits). I'm trying to put an ISO Image together. -- Markus Bertheau <twanger@bluetwanger.de> Berlin, Germany The fact that the much of computer world equates simple with dumb and complex with powerful is an unfortunate accident of history. (Erik)
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В Птн, 05.09.2003, в 00:28, Markus Bertheau пишет: > В Чтв, 04.09.2003, в 22:36, Josh Berkus пишет: > > Folks, > > > > We're going to need some things for Comdex: > > > > 1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include > > installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): > > PostgreSQL 7.4 > > PGAdmin III > > PhpPgAdmin 3.0 > > eRServer > > Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits). > > I'm trying to put an ISO Image together. Ok. I'm not sure how to handle techdocs stuff. I can surely mirror the website with wget and put that on the CD. But then I'm asking, why can't people just surf the internet themselves? Which brings me to the question, why do we need that CD? Of what use should it be to the user? When I know the answer to that question, I can sensibly decide if and how to put techdocs on the CD. Thanks, Markus The contents so far: [bert@severn bert]$ ls -1 PostgreSQLCD/ Documentation erserver_v1.2.tar.gz pgadmin3-0.9.2.tar.gz phpPgAdmin-3.0.1.tar.gz postgresql-7.3.4.tar.gz postgresql-7.4beta2.tar.gz Documentation holds the html documentation of postgresql-docs-7.4beta2.tar.bz2. -- Markus Bertheau <twanger@bluetwanger.de> Berlin, Germany The fact that the much of computer world equates simple with dumb and complex with powerful is an unfortunate accident of history. (Erik)
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Doesnt it make sense to do a non-compressed, html based tech docs that they can click on when they put it in their windows machine? ;-) Maybe .html files and the .bz2? Or .zip since it might not just be *nix folks? Gavin Markus Bertheau wrote: >В Птн, 05.09.2003, в 00:28, Markus Bertheau пишет: > > >>В Чтв, 04.09.2003, в 22:36, Josh Berkus пишет: >> >> >>>Folks, >>> >>>We're going to need some things for Comdex: >>> >>>1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include >>>installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): >>> PostgreSQL 7.4 >>> PGAdmin III >>> PhpPgAdmin 3.0 >>> eRServer >>> Supplimentary documentation (stuff from Techdocs and General Bits). >>> >>> >>I'm trying to put an ISO Image together. >> >> > >Ok. I'm not sure how to handle techdocs stuff. I can surely mirror the >website with wget and put that on the CD. But then I'm asking, why can't >people just surf the internet themselves? Which brings me to the >question, why do we need that CD? Of what use should it be to the user? >When I know the answer to that question, I can sensibly decide if and >how to put techdocs on the CD. > >Thanks, Markus > >The contents so far: > >[bert@severn bert]$ ls -1 PostgreSQLCD/ >Documentation >erserver_v1.2.tar.gz >pgadmin3-0.9.2.tar.gz >phpPgAdmin-3.0.1.tar.gz >postgresql-7.3.4.tar.gz >postgresql-7.4beta2.tar.gz > >Documentation holds the html documentation of >postgresql-docs-7.4beta2.tar.bz2. > > >
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Cornelia Boenigk wrote: > Hi all > > See > http://www.cornelia-boenigk.de/cover/cover.html > and as small 'powered by'-pics at > http://www.postgres.de/ neither of which use our logo, which can be seen at: http://www.postgresql.org/images/banner-right.jpg can we get a CD cover that actually uses the right logo?
В Птн, 05.09.2003, в 01:07, Gavin M. Roy пишет: > Doesnt it make sense to do a non-compressed, html based tech docs that > they can click on when they put it in their windows machine? ;-) That's what I did. > > Maybe .html files and the .bz2? Or .zip since it might not just be *nix > folks? I don't think you need the Documentation zipped on the CD, when you have it unpacked. For software that will run on Windows, I will put a zipped version on the CD, too. Thanks. -- Markus Bertheau <twanger@bluetwanger.de> Berlin, Germany The fact that the much of computer world equates simple with dumb and complex with powerful is an unfortunate accident of history. (Erik)
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I'm working on one with the .ai file found at pgsql.inc of the correct logo. Gavin Marc G. Fournier wrote: >On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Cornelia Boenigk wrote: > > > >>Hi all >> >>See >>http://www.cornelia-boenigk.de/cover/cover.html >>and as small 'powered by'-pics at >>http://www.postgres.de/ >> >> > >neither of which use our logo, which can be seen at: > > http://www.postgresql.org/images/banner-right.jpg > >can we get a CD cover that actually uses the right logo? > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > >
Hi You also should put the ipc-daemon an the necessary cygwin packages for the win-users on the CD. Regards Conni -- Datenbanklösungen + PostgreSQL + Webdesign http://www.cornelia-boenigk.de | http://www.pgsql.info http://www.dpunkt.de/buch/3-89864-175-9.html
Markus, > Ok. I'm not sure how to handle techdocs stuff. I can surely mirror the > website with wget and put that on the CD. But then I'm asking, why can't > people just surf the internet themselves? Which brings me to the > question, why do we need that CD? Of what use should it be to the user? > When I know the answer to that question, I can sensibly decide if and > how to put techdocs on the CD. I was thinking selected highlight articles *not* the whole thing, much of which is out of date. Tommorrow I will get you a list. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Markus, > I was thinking selected highlight articles *not* the whole thing, much of > which is out of date. Tommorrow I will get you a list. OK, now looking it over there's too much. Instead, we want to provide users with a "getting started" HTML file that includes links to techdocs and other resources. Kaarel started such a document; I will try to find my copy so that we can build on it rather than starting from scratch. There's a *few* files that I think are useful enough to include on the disk: GUI Interfaces: http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/GUITools The PostgreSQL Mailing Lists: http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/MailingListsMeta Slow Query Tips: http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/SlowQueryTips These should be included mainly because they are fairly fundamental and are relatively buried on the site. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> The PostgreSQL Mailing Lists: > http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/MailingListsMeta Hey, this is a nice page for newcomers to the mailing lists, but it's a shame it's only on the techdocs site. Shouldn't it also be on www.postgresql.org when you click on "Mailing lists"? --------------- Francois Home page: http://www.monpetitcoin.com/ "Would Descartes have programmed in Pascal?" - Umberto Eco
> > >OK, now looking it over there's too much. Instead, we want to provide users >with a "getting started" HTML file that includes links to techdocs and other >resources. Kaarel started such a document; I will try to find my copy so >that we can build on it rather than starting from scratch. > The "getting started" guide I composed can be found here http://www.tud.ttu.ee/~t001177/pgqsg.html It's mostly links to different PostgreSQL guides though. I just added short descriptions and some other links I have found useful. Kaarel
Don't forget the tuning guide you have posted on the general bits site. Robert Treat On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 00:33, Josh Berkus wrote: > Markus, > > > I was thinking selected highlight articles *not* the whole thing, much of > > which is out of date. Tommorrow I will get you a list. > > OK, now looking it over there's too much. Instead, we want to provide users > with a "getting started" HTML file that includes links to techdocs and other > resources. Kaarel started such a document; I will try to find my copy so > that we can build on it rather than starting from scratch. > > There's a *few* files that I think are useful enough to include on the disk: > > GUI Interfaces: > http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/GUITools > > The PostgreSQL Mailing Lists: > http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/MailingListsMeta > > Slow Query Tips: > http://techdocs.postgresql.org/guides/SlowQueryTips > > These should be included mainly because they are fairly fundamental and are > relatively buried on the site. > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert, > Don't forget the tuning guide you have posted on the general bits site. That discussion happened off-list ... it will be going in. It would be good to link to it as part of Kaarel's "getting started" guide. Also, the "comprehensive postgresql.conf guide" should also go in. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Those are on my list to include in a "sampler" of General Bits stuff. --elein On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 10:03:02AM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > Robert, > > > Don't forget the tuning guide you have posted on the general bits site. > > That discussion happened off-list ... it will be going in. It would be good > to link to it as part of Kaarel's "getting started" guide. > > Also, the "comprehensive postgresql.conf guide" should also go in. > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Gavin, > Please find the attached proposed layout for the CD-Label. Please let > me know any changes youy guys like this direction, and I can then make a > file that will print on Avery 5824 CD-R Disk Labels. I like it! Unless someone objects, I say let's go with it. Thanks! Please format. However, please DON'T post it to the list. Some people on this list are on dial-up! Please send it to me privately, preferably as PDF, OOo, or graphical file. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
if he doesn't post it to the list, how can anyone object? :) Gavin, can you email me a copy directly? Or a URL? I didn't see the original on this sub-thread :( Thanks ... On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > Gavin, > > > Please find the attached proposed layout for the CD-Label. Please let > > me know any changes youy guys like this direction, and I can then make a > > file that will print on Avery 5824 CD-R Disk Labels. > > I like it! Unless someone objects, I say let's go with it. Thanks! > > Please format. However, please DON'T post it to the list. Some people on > this list are on dial-up! Please send it to me privately, preferably as > PDF, OOo, or graphical file. > > > -- > -Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >
I've written a small little program for generating standard cd-labels on the fly using pdflib based upon the layout I sent earlier. You can access it at: http://pgsql.gavinroy.com/cdlabel Let me know if it needs to be tweaked any. I have have an example gif and photo of a labeled cd up there as well for the curious. Let me know if you guys want cd jewel case inserts and what not as well. Cheers, Gavin Marc G. Fournier wrote: >if he doesn't post it to the list, how can anyone object? :) > >Gavin, can you email me a copy directly? Or a URL? I didn't see the >original on this sub-thread :( > >Thanks ... > >On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > >>Gavin, >> >> >> >>>Please find the attached proposed layout for the CD-Label. Please let >>>me know any changes youy guys like this direction, and I can then make a >>>file that will print on Avery 5824 CD-R Disk Labels. >>> >>> >>I like it! Unless someone objects, I say let's go with it. Thanks! >> >>Please format. However, please DON'T post it to the list. Some people on >>this list are on dial-up! Please send it to me privately, preferably as >>PDF, OOo, or graphical file. >> >> >>-- >>-Josh Berkus >> Aglio Database Solutions >> San Francisco >> >> >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate >> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your >> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >> >> >>
Hrmmm ... can I suggest one addition? you have the Month/Year ... how about the event? not sure if it means anything, or matter, its just a thought ... but something like: Comdex, Las Vegas October, 2004 ? On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > I've written a small little program for generating standard cd-labels on > the fly using pdflib based upon the layout I sent earlier. You can > access it at: > > http://pgsql.gavinroy.com/cdlabel > > Let me know if it needs to be tweaked any. I have have an example gif > and photo of a labeled cd up there as well for the curious. Let me know > if you guys want cd jewel case inserts and what not as well. > > Cheers, > > Gavin > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > >if he doesn't post it to the list, how can anyone object? :) > > > >Gavin, can you email me a copy directly? Or a URL? I didn't see the > >original on this sub-thread :( > > > >Thanks ... > > > >On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > > > > > >>Gavin, > >> > >> > >> > >>>Please find the attached proposed layout for the CD-Label. Please let > >>>me know any changes youy guys like this direction, and I can then make a > >>>file that will print on Avery 5824 CD-R Disk Labels. > >>> > >>> > >>I like it! Unless someone objects, I say let's go with it. Thanks! > >> > >>Please format. However, please DON'T post it to the list. Some people on > >>this list are on dial-up! Please send it to me privately, preferably as > >>PDF, OOo, or graphical file. > >> > >> > >>-- > >>-Josh Berkus > >> Aglio Database Solutions > >> San Francisco > >> > >> > >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >>TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > >> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > >> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > >> > >> > >> > > > >
Done :) Marc G. Fournier wrote: >Hrmmm ... can I suggest one addition? you have the Month/Year ... how >about the event? not sure if it means anything, or matter, its just a >thought ... but something like: > > Comdex, Las Vegas > October, 2004 > >? > > > >On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > > > >>I've written a small little program for generating standard cd-labels on >>the fly using pdflib based upon the layout I sent earlier. You can >>access it at: >> >>http://pgsql.gavinroy.com/cdlabel >> >>Let me know if it needs to be tweaked any. I have have an example gif >>and photo of a labeled cd up there as well for the curious. Let me know >>if you guys want cd jewel case inserts and what not as well. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Gavin >> >>Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >> >> >>>if he doesn't post it to the list, how can anyone object? :) >>> >>>Gavin, can you email me a copy directly? Or a URL? I didn't see the >>>original on this sub-thread :( >>> >>>Thanks ... >>> >>>On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Josh Berkus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Gavin, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Please find the attached proposed layout for the CD-Label. Please let >>>>>me know any changes youy guys like this direction, and I can then make a >>>>>file that will print on Avery 5824 CD-R Disk Labels. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>I like it! Unless someone objects, I say let's go with it. Thanks! >>>> >>>>Please format. However, please DON'T post it to the list. Some people on >>>>this list are on dial-up! Please send it to me privately, preferably as >>>>PDF, OOo, or graphical file. >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>-Josh Berkus >>>>Aglio Database Solutions >>>>San Francisco >>>> >>>> >>>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>>>TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate >>>> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your >>>> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>
On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Hrmmm ... can I suggest one addition? you have the Month/Year ... how > about the event? not sure if it means anything, or matter, its just a > thought ... but something like: I suggest the main Pg version number or the CD version number. I'll be using this for simple giveaways and would want the receiver to know what they're getting. Aother issue is not strickly Pg related. How do we get them onto the various label formats without a PDF enabled editor. I use OpenOffice.Org and am unaware of how to get this into one of my label templates. NEATO, Avery, etc. Lastly, this is a very neat and clean layout. I like it a lot. I was trying to find time to do the same but all my ideas were much more cluttered. To paraphrase a friend. "The problem is you give a computer guy a graphics program and he thinks he's an artist[*]." I am glad Gavin has the artistic touch. [*] His original statement was "The problem with letting engineers take programming classes is they think they're programmers." This after we were reviewing/decyphering/debugging some _REALLY_ ugly Fortran coding. Rod -- "Open Source Software - Sometimes you get more than you paid for..."
Fellow PostgreSQL-lovers: As I mentioned a month back or so, a MySQL advocate will be presenting at the Salt Lake Linux User Group in December. I still haven't had a confirmation (the leaders are very slow), but I'm going to go ahead and proceed as if I will be giving a follow-up presentation in January. I have some requests. ;-) On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:36:24 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > 1) CDs: I would like to have a "PostgreSQL CD" which would include > installation scripts and source for (maybe betas of the below): I would very much like to be able to hand out CDs to those that would like them. I recently purchased a Powerbook with a SuperDrive, which means I can burn CDs at 8x and DVD-Rs at 2x, IIRC, so that's one possibility. However, I wouldn't mind getting any leftover CDs from Josh's Comdex show. Possible? What other possibilities exist for CDs? > 3) Brochure: We need a PostgreSQL 7.4 Brochure. I really, really need > someone to volunteer to put this together; there's no way I'm going to get it > done and my design skills suck. Please? > > 4) Not MySQL: Ian, I could use the "distilled" version of your "why not > MySQL" list, something suitable for a 2-sided B/W flyer with large type > headings. I would also like to get my hands on these two documents. They would prove to be very valuable both in writing my presentation and to hand out to the audience. Where can I find #4, and would it be possible to get #3 once it is done? Even already existing brochures and the like would be nice. > 5) Schwag: I'll talk to Marc about t-shirts etc. These and other promotional gear (books and whatnot) would also be nice as giveaways. What hoops would I have to go through to get some? -- Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@anthonychavez.org
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On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:48:34 -0600 Anthony Chavez <acc@anthonychavez.org> wrote: >> 4) Not MySQL: Ian, I could use the "distilled" version of your "why not >> MySQL" list, something suitable for a 2-sided B/W flyer with large type >> headings. Scratch my request for the location of #4. I found it. :-) Ian: Excellent work. Is the list completed? And if you haven't yet, why not open the development somehow (CVS, blog, wiki, etc.) so that you can get more contributors? -- Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@anthonychavez.org
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On Friday 12 September 2003 23:58, Anthony Chavez wrote: > On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:48:34 -0600 Anthony Chavez <acc@anthonychavez.org> wrote: > >> 4) Not MySQL: Ian, I could use the "distilled" version of your "why not > >> MySQL" list, something suitable for a 2-sided B/W flyer with large type > >> headings. > > Scratch my request for the location of #4. I found it. :-) > > Ian: > > Excellent work. Is the list completed? And if you haven't yet, why not > open the development somehow (CVS, blog, wiki, etc.) so that you can get > more contributors? (looks around guiltily) had one of those weeks where everything conspired to sidetrack me from the more cereberal pleasures of life :-(. I'll tidy up what I have and post it to the list Sunday , should be usable with potential for expansion. (Sorry, Josh, I missed the mail originally quoted here). Ian Barwick barwick@gmx.net