Thread: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
Hi Again, We would like to put forward an alternate design to the current wwwdevel design. It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design. It's already done! It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks pretty. :) By clicking "About", you can see the design for the section navigation and the sponsor box. We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines. Some issues with the current content of the site: * There really isn't much there. A lot of the content is obviously written by separate people with different writing styles. The content also presumes that the reader has a lot of technical knowledge. * Many links just point to external websites without warning. The content should be pulled into the main site, or put under an "External Sources" heading. * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under Documentation, etc. Of course, we're willing to help out with the content if our design is used. :) Regards, Emily Boyd - and - Omar Kilani
> Hi Again, > > We would like to put forward an alternate design to the > current wwwdevel design. > > It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it > makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) > > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. > No additional work is required to retrofit the current > wwwdevel design. > It's already done! Not quite. My pet-peeve is back :-) I managed to get Alexey to change About to Overview. It just seems very weird to find things like "Interfacing postgresql with other software" under "About". Just my opinion of course, and since things seem to drop back into About now and then, perhaps I'm the only one with it. > It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks > pretty. :) It indeed looks very good. But is there any reason why it can't be made to use the full width of a browser window if it's large? It seems to just center in the browser now... > Of course, we're willing to help out with the content if our > design is used. :) Only with that design? :P I'm sure there are a lot of help needed with content regardless of design, and since content and design aren't locked together... //Magnus
> -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Omar Kilani > Sent: 12 November 2004 02:38 > To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > Subject: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > Hi Again, > > We would like to put forward an alternate design to the > current wwwdevel design. > > It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it > makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) Yes, it is a very nice design, far nicer than your last one :-) I am concerned though - after a long time looking around and discussing things on and off, we already all agreed on a design. I'm concerned for 2 main reasons: 1) We accepted a concept from Lukasz - I don't like the idea of throwing away his hard work in this way. 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw the line? If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that line should be drawn already. > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. > No additional work is required to retrofit the current > wwwdevel design. > It's already done! > > It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks > pretty. :) It does not expand with the browser though. That is a requirement of the new site. > By clicking "About", you can see the design for the section > navigation and the sponsor box. Should be Overview, but I'll put that down to your using an old cvs snapshot! > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it > up with proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the > content needs to be restructured to fit within navigational > guide lines. > > Some issues with the current content of the site: Yes, content and the current split of the sites is a known issue, and is the next phase of the project. Regards, Dave.
please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion since I need some focus on www work On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 04:22, Dave Page wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Omar Kilani > > Sent: 12 November 2004 02:38 > > To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > > Subject: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > > > Hi Again, > > > > We would like to put forward an alternate design to the > > current wwwdevel design. > > > > It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ > > > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it > > makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) > > Yes, it is a very nice design, far nicer than your last one :-) > > I am concerned though - after a long time looking around and discussing > things on and off, we already all agreed on a design. I'm concerned for > 2 main reasons: > > 1) We accepted a concept from Lukasz - I don't like the idea of throwing > away his hard work in this way. > One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the subsection really scream out for second level navigation. In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar on every page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of screen real estate while adding little/no substance to the secondary pages. For example, do we really need a link to external community sites on every page? In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add in content like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and other sections from advocacy and techdocs websites, but this mean putting all of these subsections on the main "overview" page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be gone through to find content. I think it is easier for people to scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like in the "About" section of the tinysofa design. These underlying structural issues need to be addressed regardless of what design we use. > 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great > design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw the line? If > I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that > line should be drawn already. > If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, then either that needs to be addressed in the current design, or we need to swap. I understand that we don't want to just toss Lukasz' work out the window, but if we were developing an application and we found flaws in some piece of it, and someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds that we already have an existing implementation. (In fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, like fixed width, that would also have to be addressed before we could use it) Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
> -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Robert Treat > Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion > since I need some focus on www work Good call. > > One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the > subsection really scream out for second level navigation. > > In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar > on every page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of > screen real estate while adding little/no substance to the > secondary pages. For example, do we really need a link to > external community sites on every page? > > In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add > in content like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and > other sections from advocacy and techdocs websites, but this > mean putting all of these subsections on the main "overview" > page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be gone > through to find content. I think it is easier for people to > scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like > in the "About" section of the tinysofa design. > > These underlying structural issues need to be addressed > regardless of what design we use. Yes, agreed. > > 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great > > design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw > the line? > > If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think > > that line should be drawn already. > > > > If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, > then either that needs to be addressed in the current design, > or we need to swap. I understand that we don't want to just > toss Lukasz' work out the window, but if we were developing > an application and we found flaws in some piece of it, and > someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't > think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds > that we already have an existing implementation. Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a lot more subjective. I see what you mean though. > (In > fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, > like fixed width, that would also have to be addressed before > we could use it) Also agreed. I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much as Lukasz'. Regards, Dave
Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor changes, perhaps we should resurrect the idea of a vote (maybe on Advocacy). Any thoughts on that? Gavin Dave Page wrote: > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org >>[mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Robert Treat >>Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08 >>To: Dave Page >>Cc: Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org >>Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design >> >>please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion >>since I need some focus on www work >> >> > >Good call. > > > >>One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the >>subsection really scream out for second level navigation. >> >>In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar >>on every page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of >>screen real estate while adding little/no substance to the >>secondary pages. For example, do we really need a link to >>external community sites on every page? >> >>In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add >>in content like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and >>other sections from advocacy and techdocs websites, but this >>mean putting all of these subsections on the main "overview" >>page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be gone >>through to find content. I think it is easier for people to >>scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like >>in the "About" section of the tinysofa design. >> >>These underlying structural issues need to be addressed >>regardless of what design we use. >> >> > >Yes, agreed. > > > >>>2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great >>>design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw >>> >>> >>the line? >> >> >>>If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think >>>that line should be drawn already. >>> >>> >>> >>If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, >>then either that needs to be addressed in the current design, >>or we need to swap. I understand that we don't want to just >>toss Lukasz' work out the window, but if we were developing >>an application and we found flaws in some piece of it, and >>someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't >>think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds >>that we already have an existing implementation. >> >> > >Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a >lot more subjective. I see what you mean though. > > > >>(In >>fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, >>like fixed width, that would also have to be addressed before >>we could use it) >> >> > >Also agreed. > >I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much >as Lukasz'. > >Regards, Dave > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > >
> -----Original Message----- > From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] > Sent: 12 November 2004 16:51 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor > changes, perhaps we should resurrect the idea of a vote Yes, sounds fine to me. > (maybe on Advocacy). Any thoughts on that? Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for. Regards, Dave
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor changes, perhaps we > should resurrect the idea of a vote (maybe on Advocacy). Any thoughts on > that? Once change to the new design has to be made before it can be drop'd in, and the banner has to be added to the right menu like it is on the new design ... > > Gavin > > Dave Page wrote: > >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org >>> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Robert Treat >>> Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08 >>> To: Dave Page >>> Cc: Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org >>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design >>> >>> please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion since I need some >>> focus on www work >>> >> >> Good call. >> >> >>> One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the subsection >>> really scream out for second level navigation. >>> In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar on every page >>> which I think is bad because it uses a lot of screen real estate while >>> adding little/no substance to the secondary pages. For example, do we >>> really need a link to external community sites on every page? >>> In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add in content >>> like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and other sections from advocacy >>> and techdocs websites, but this mean putting all of these subsections on >>> the main "overview" page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be >>> gone through to find content. I think it is easier for people to scroll >>> short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like in the "About" >>> section of the tinysofa design. >>> These underlying structural issues need to be addressed regardless of what >>> design we use. >> >> Yes, agreed. >> >> >>>> 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great >>>> design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw >>> the line? >>>> If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that >>>> line should be drawn already. >>>> >>>> >>> If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, then either >>> that needs to be addressed in the current design, or we need to swap. I >>> understand that we don't want to just toss Lukasz' work out the window, >>> but if we were developing an application and we found flaws in some piece >>> of it, and someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't >>> think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds that we already >>> have an existing implementation. >> >> Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a >> lot more subjective. I see what you mean though. >> >> >>> (In fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, like fixed >>> width, that would also have to be addressed before we could use it) >> >> Also agreed. >> I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much >> as Lukasz'. >> Regards, Dave >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command >> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) >> > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Omar, > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the > release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design, and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable. > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No > additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design. > It's already done! Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us an idea of how you envision the site being organized. > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with > proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to > be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines. No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www. > * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a > completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under > the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under > /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under > Documentation, etc. We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already planned. Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current WWW team and nothing gets written. Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers -- to maintain these areas. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, which could be in the next few weeks? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Berkus wrote: > Omar, > > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the > > release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) > > I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but > that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design, > and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable. > > > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No > > additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design. > > It's already done! > > Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the > extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us > an idea of how you envision the site being organized. > > > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with > > proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to > > be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines. > > No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www. > > > * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a > > completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under > > the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under > > /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under > > Documentation, etc. > > We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage > more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already > planned. > > Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some > kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current > WWW team and nothing gets written. > > Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site > requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the > contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text > editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general > pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers -- > to maintain these areas. > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
>Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for. > >Regards, Dave > The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are the public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacyhas as much to do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While documentation and such are important,one can argue that those are marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the website didn'thave the info. The website is one of the things that new users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision. The more professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable users will be with PgSQL at an Enterprise level. Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of the implementors and into the hands of a potential testmarket as they will be more representative of user impression. I would even go as far as to suggest the radical ideaof offering the vote to pgsql-general and letting the active community at large decide. </marketing_hat> Gavin
>> > The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are the > public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacy has as much to > do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While > documentation and such are important, one can argue that those are > marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the > website didn't have the info. The website is one of the things that new > users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision. The more > professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable users will be > with PgSQL at an Enterprise level. > > Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of the > implementors and into the hands of a potential test market as they will > be more representative of user impression. I would even go as far as to > suggest the radical idea of offering the vote to pgsql-general and > letting the active community at large decide. > </marketing_hat> This is absolutely correct. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Gavin > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP. Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 13:37, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>
> >Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed
directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for.
> >
> >Regards, Dave
> >
> The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are
> the public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacy has as
> much to do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While
> documentation and such are important, one can argue that those are
> marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the
> website didn't have the info. The website is one of the things that
> new users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision.
> The more professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable
> users will be with PgSQL at an Enterprise level.
>
I don't necessarily disagree with you on these items, but the same
argument could be said for including ODBC/JDBC Drivers, PgAdmin Gui
Tool, or Slony, into the main postgresql product. Database customers
generally "expect" those things to be include in their software package,
yet no one seems to be up in arms over -core's decision to toss those
things out of the main code base.
Besides, of the folks heavily involved in advocacy (of which I happen to
be one), the majority of those folks follow this list, so there concerns
are not being ignored.
> Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of
> the implementors and into the hands of a potential test market as they
> will be more representative of user impression. I would even go as
> far as to suggest the radical idea of offering the vote to
> pgsql-general and letting the active community at large decide.
> </marketing_hat>
>
Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
your looking for trouble.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
It is not outside the realm of possibility, but I'm not optimistic as there are still a number of TODO items we need to finish up... Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations about launching a new site at the same time as a major release. Robert Treat On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 13:00, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, > which could be in the next few weeks? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Josh Berkus wrote: > > Omar, > > > > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the > > > release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :) > > > > I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but > > that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design, > > and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable. > > > > > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No > > > additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design. > > > It's already done! > > > > Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the > > extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us > > an idea of how you envision the site being organized. > > > > > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with > > > proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to > > > be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines. > > > > No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www. > > > > > * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a > > > completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under > > > the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under > > > /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under > > > Documentation, etc. > > > > We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage > > more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already > > planned. > > > > Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some > > kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current > > WWW team and nothing gets written. > > > > Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site > > requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the > > contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text > > editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general > > pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers -- > > to maintain these areas. > > > > -- > > Josh Berkus > > Aglio Database Solutions > > San Francisco > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > > > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road > + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that >goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information >architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an >organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public >your looking for trouble. > > >Robert Treat > > Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both? Gavin
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 10:38, Dave Page wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org
> > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Robert Treat
> > Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08
> > To: Dave Page
> > Cc: Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
> >
> > please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion
> > since I need some focus on www work
>
> Good call.
>
> >
> > One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the
> > subsection really scream out for second level navigation.
> >
<snip>
> >
> > These underlying structural issues need to be addressed
> > regardless of what design we use.
>
> Yes, agreed.
>
here is a more concrete example of a structural issue. One of the items
on the TODO list is getting some initial integration of
developer.postgresql.org into the main site. I came up with the
following structure that I think would work fairly well for integrating
the two sites:
Developer/
Roadmap/
TODO
unapplied patches
Coding/
bios
cvs retrieve
dev lists
translating
info/
flowchart
db internals
implementation
(howto build for linux/win32)
(db projects ie. odbc,jdbc,dbd,etc...)
(howto on writing docs)
Testing/
beta
dev docs
dev docs 5 min
(autobuildproject)
(nightly builds)
(report a bug)
Tools/
cvs - web
cvs interfaces - web
(lxr)
FAQ/
faq
Basically we start with a main nav "developer" link, which takes us into
the developer content. This content cant be broken down into a number of
subcategories (RoadMap, Coding, Testing, Tools, FAQ), which would have
further content underneath them. I've added some items in () to show
where future content might grow into.
In the lukasz design, I would basically be forced to have the main
developer page be a list of links that scroll down the page. In the
tinysofa design, we could put the subcatagories into a right hand nav
bar with content or further links into the main section, and it would
not be cramped in like we are with the main nav bar.
Now, we could probably accomplish this with the luckasz design, though
all we have seen are repeated right hand nav bar style pages. The
tinysofa design has the advantage of already seeing how these types of
subpages would look.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > >> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that >> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information >> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an >> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public >> your looking for trouble. >> >> Robert Treat >> > Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying that > people outside of -www are not capable of judging both? The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus ... those that are interested in the web site developments have/should join the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm talking about a vote: A if you like the design at url1 B if you like the design at url2 Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that" Gavin Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > >> >>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that >>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information >>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an >>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public >>> your looking for trouble. >>> Robert Treat >>> >> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying >> that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both? > > > The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus > ... those that are interested in the web site developments have/should > join the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ... > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services > (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: > 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if > your > joining column's datatypes do not match
Actually all of this call for a vote seems a little premature IMHO. We have problems with both designs that need to be addressed. Let's see what shakes out from that discussion before we put it up for a vote, after all we just might form a consensus anyway. Robert Treat On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 15:17, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm > talking about a vote: > > A if you like the design at url1 > B if you like the design at url2 > > Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that" > > Gavin > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > > > >> > >>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that > >>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information > >>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an > >>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public > >>> your looking for trouble. > >>> Robert Treat > >>> > >> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying > >> that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both? > > > > > > The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus > > ... those that are interested in the web site developments have/should > > join the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ... > > > > ---- > > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services > > (http://www.hub.org) > > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: > > 7615664 > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if > > your > > joining column's datatypes do not match > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Hi there,
there will be many waves of 'new/alternative' design, so I propose
voluntary approach but with requirement of presence of "mandatory" part.
"mandatory" part should be available via http/rsync/ftp for mirroring.
I'd be happy to mirror on www.pgsql.ru, for example, pg announcements,
catalog of links to pg resources, documentations.
Having such mandatory parts/pieces of information it's easy to
to have design 1,2,3 as Gavin proposed. cookies could store preferences,
so no different url required.
Oleg
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm talking
> about a vote:
>
> A if you like the design at url1
> B if you like the design at url2
>
> Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that"
>
> Gavin
>
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
>>>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
>>>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
>>>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
>>>> your looking for trouble.
>>>> Robert Treat
>>>>
>>> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying that
>>> people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
>>
>>
>> The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus ...
>> those that are interested in the web site developments have/should join the
>> -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ...
>>
>> ----
>> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
>> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>> joining column's datatypes do not match
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
Robert, > Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could > possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations > about launching a new site at the same time as a major release. Given the problems with the legacy site, I think a lot of us would rather see a new, even partially implemented, site than to do 8.0 on the old site. --Josh -- __Aglio Database Solutions_______________ Josh Berkus Consultant josh@agliodbs.com www.agliodbs.com Ph: 415-752-2500 Fax: 415-752-2387 2166 Hayes Suite 200 San Francisco, CA
Folks, > A if you like the design at url1 > B if you like the design at url2 Personally, I have one and only one criterion: which one will get done first? -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> -----Original Message----- > From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:gmr@ehpg.net] > Sent: 12 November 2004 18:38 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > > >Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never > contributed directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for. > > > >Regards, Dave > > > The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but > websites are the public marketing front for projects like > this. Advocacy has as much to do with that as the people on > www that make it happen. Yes, that's how it should happen. But seeing as -advocacy decided to go and do their own website, and all we ever seem to get on this list from there is complaints and criticisms from people who clearly have't taken the time to check their facts before posting, I personally do not think they should be included in this. Now that is not a general criticism of the members of that list - many are *very* constructive community members. However, every time -advocacy get involved, we end up going round months old arguments again and again and get nowhere fast. Regards, Dave.
> Yes, that's how it should happen. But seeing as -advocacy decided to go > and do their own website, and all we ever seem to get on this list from > there is complaints and criticisms from people who clearly have't taken > the time to check their facts before posting, I personally do not think > they should be included in this. Now that is not a general criticism of > the members of that list - many are *very* constructive community > members. However, every time -advocacy get involved, we end up going > round months old arguments again and again and get nowhere fast. All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast in general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates whatsoever about where we are on the website, what tasks need to be completed, who is doing them, estimated timelines... or -- even a reminder to people of where to go to see these things if they exist. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Regards, Dave. > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP. Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
> -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com] > Sent: 12 November 2004 21:52 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Gavin M. Roy; Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design > > > > All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast > in general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates > whatsoever about where we are on the website, what tasks need > to be completed, who is doing them, estimated timelines... I admit there hasn't been much done the last couple of weeks, but in my case that's because I've been polishing off and handing in a dissertation. I'm sure you will have seen the various commit messages from before then though? There have been commits from myself, Alexey and Robert, as well as some patches from Gavin Sherry. > > or -- even a reminder to people of where to go to see these > things if they exist. Well we don't post periodic reminders on other lists either, but here you go: Todo list: http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo Web CVS: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/cvs/cvs.php/portal Commiter list: http://gborg.postgresql.org/pipermail/pgweb-commits/ Regards, Dave.
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, > which could be in the next few weeks? No.
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could
> > possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations
> > about launching a new site at the same time as a major release. ?
>
> Given the problems with the legacy site, I think a lot of us would rather see
> a new, even partially implemented, site than to do 8.0 on the old site.
Agreed. I have two words to summarize my opinion, "dancing elephant":
http://janetskiles.com/ART/greeting/greet-ani/dancing-elephant.jpg
"I would rather see a dancing elephant up there than us do nothing."
But seriously, we haven't focused in the past on getting the www
completed and if we let 8.0 ship without doing the upgrade it will
languish for many more months.
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi, > > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, > > which could be in the next few weeks? > > No. OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't get a group together to update a web site? -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Bruce, > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > get a group together to update a web site? Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of them are paid to do so? --Josh -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com] >> Sent: 12 November 2004 21:52 >> To: Dave Page >> Cc: Gavin M. Roy; Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org >> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design >> >> >> >> All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast >> in general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates >> whatsoever about where we are on the website, what tasks need >> to be completed, who is doing them, estimated timelines... > > I admit there hasn't been much done the last couple of weeks, but in my > case that's because I've been polishing off and handing in a > dissertation. I'm sure you will have seen the various commit messages > from before then though? There have been commits from myself, Alexey and > Robert, as well as some patches from Gavin Sherry. Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Josh Berkus wrote: > Bruce, > > > OK, fair enough. ?Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > > get a group together to update a web site? > > Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of them are > paid to do so? Well, even if you take out the paid folks, PostgreSQL would be doing a lot more than the www site is. Remember we had no paid guys for the first few years. I am suggesting that we are not properly harnessing the talent we have. That is a big part of the success in the code portion of the project. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Alexey Borzov wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Bruce Momjian wrote: >>> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, >>> which could be in the next few weeks? >> >> No. > > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > get a group together to update a web site? Glamour? :) Its more glamous to say "I added so-n-so feature to the server for this release" then "I helped code HTML for the web site"? :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Josh Berkus wrote: > > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a > > release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, > > and we can't get a group together to update a web site? > > Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of > them are paid to do so? We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's getting paid for it, we're in trouble. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > Alexey Borzov wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Bruce Momjian wrote: > >>> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, > >>> which could be in the next few weeks? > >> > >> No. > > > > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > > get a group together to update a web site? > > Glamour? :) Its more glamous to say "I added so-n-so feature to the > server for this release" then "I helped code HTML for the web site"? :) OK, then how can we make the www development more glamorous? It certainly "looks" better than a psql prompt. Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Honestly? It's either the too many cooks problem, or the poor coordination, or the lack of a clear leader/decision maker. It's hard for people who are not already involved intimately to get involved. It's hard to get other ideas floated without getting them shot down by one or two people, which seems to be the overall process killer in anything -www related. It's hard to feel like people are working in the same direction when for language reasons or otherwise discussions turn derogatory, rude, and down right ugly. I keep trying to stick my nose in to things because, at least people know who I am, and while not everyone agrees with me, I can at least try and do what I think we are all trying to do and that is make the best site for PostgreSQL which will impress people and be the valuable resource the existing site already is. There is a lot of history in the way things are done. People new to the project and people who weren't involved in the decisions made years ago about having sites like advocacy., developers., etc often feel out of the loop when they try and influence change. We have many capable designers, developers, and webmasters here. We need to find a way to work together and realize we're all ultimately working for the same goal. Egos need to be put aside, and work needs to get done. If I felt like there was a way to help get the site done that I could truly contribute to, other than offering opinions on direction and what not, I would be there doing it. Gavin Bruce Momjian wrote: >Alexey Borzov wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Bruce Momjian wrote: >> >> >>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, >>>which could be in the next few weeks? >>> >>> >>No. >> >> > >OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release >evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't >get a group together to update a web site? > > >
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: >>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, >>>which could be in the next few weeks? >> >>No. > > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > get a group together to update a web site? Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on the website? How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website?
Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi, > > Bruce Momjian wrote: > >>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, > >>>which could be in the next few weeks? > >> > >>No. > > > > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release > > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't > > get a group together to update a web site? > > Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name > people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on > the website? I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved. > How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website? Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Marc, > Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .................... -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: > I am suggesting that we are not properly harnessing the talent we have. > That is a big part of the success in the code portion of the project. I don't think so ... I think the big part of the success in the code portion is that its more "high profile" ... to me, it was a *big* thing when I first started submitting kernel patches for FreeBSD way back when, because I was working on the actually *code* ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Marc, > >> Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www? > > Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .................... But, it help curtail the "nobody is doing anything" arguments ... *evil grin* ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Josh Berkus wrote: >>> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a >>> release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, >>> and we can't get a group together to update a web site? >> >> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of >> them are paid to do so? > > We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting > paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's > getting paid for it, we're in trouble. I agree ... IMHO, its like docs ... its not something ppl want to do, since they have a perception that its not as "cool' as orking on the code ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Friday 12 November 2004 23:42, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > Josh Berkus wrote:
> >>> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a
> >>> release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex,
> >>> and we can't get a group together to update a web site?
> >>
> >> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of
> >> them are paid to do so?
> >
> > We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting
> > paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's
> > getting paid for it, we're in trouble.
>
> I agree ... IMHO, its like docs ... its not something ppl want to do,
> since they have a perception that its not as "cool' as orking on the code
> ...
>
I don't think it is just the coolness factor. It is easier to justify needing
to hack database code to your boss/professor/manager than it is to justify
hacking on the website. Same is true for a great many third party apps like
ODBC/JDBC/PhpPgAdmin/etc... All of these things help you solve another
problem. The current website, while not award winning, is functional enough
that enough people can get work done without haveing to chip in.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: >>>OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release >>>evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't >>>get a group together to update a web site? >> >>Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name >>people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on >>the website? > > I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who > we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved. Exactly. So can you say: what makes it easy for people to contribute to PostgreSQL-web-server? What can we do to leverage the same to PostgreSQL-the-website? Please also note that the whole "coding for web is not cool" talk is a red herring: we don't have issues with new website code (which is working) and with its design (we even have 2 competing designs!) right now. We have issues with hosting and with content. Let's face it: content on current postgresql.org is shit. The information is extremely outdated [1], one cannot find useful info in obvious places like the current Download page [2]. People also find it easier to cut a niche in postgresql.org namespace and live in that instead of contributing to the website. See the bittorent "site" [3] as an extreme example: it has no info other than the links to the torrents --- does it deserve a subdomain of its own? With an outdated version of the design as well? Well, even you yourself have a niche where you publish PostgreSQL-related info, and that's not even in .postgresql.org namespace. Our glorious advocacy group does nothing to fix the situation, they even did advocacy.postgresql.org a long time ago and quit supporting it soon after. I don't remember any content contributions for the website from these guys. >>How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website? > > Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in > there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong. There are some political decisions that need to be made. The current "showstopper" problem is the inadequate hosting of postgresql.org project. Do you know that current postgresql.org is on a shared box? That box is incapable of running PHP scripts at all, it runs them slower [4] than my own server [5] which is in fact P2-233 (look at the profiling info at the bottom of the pages). Now, I think only the core has enough authority to address the current hosting situation. I *can* understand why you choose to do nothing about it, though. [1] http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/related.html [2] http://www.postgresql.org/mirrors-ftp.html [3] http://bt.postgresql.org/ [4] http://alexey.beta.postgresql.org/ [5] http://oc.cs.msu.su/portal/
Hi, I think this is very much project management and co-operation issue. First, I think that the web desing should be decided by those people who do the design. And those who don't, well, I don't see much help that we critisize the work of others. They surely know what they are doing. So I think it would be best, that both the design groups would talk together, and come up with a solution they see best. And one thing that influences this very much, is, that one needs to think also about the future, and that all those people can also contribute in the future, and don't quit, because their work was not considered valuable. And there is a plenty of graphical work to do, so that there is the same look and feel in both web and other materials. Secondly, I think we are not looking at the whole picture. We need some kind of a schedule. That schedule should have both the website, the translations, and the code in it. (And maybe some other things too. )We could then for example decide, that we postpone the 8.0 release for 1 month, because that way we have the new website ready. The same thing with translations, templates etc. Schedule is also important for the point, that now there has been complaints about designs, and nobody ever considers, is it better that what we have know? When can we have it ready? We try to have it perfect, and fail to notice, that a good solution now, would be better, than a perfect solution sometime after the release. This applies also to the release schedule. I have seen, that it will be released, when it's ready, but no schedule. To decide that we have a new design by 8.0 we also need to have a date for it. If we then later decide to move that date, then we do, but it gives others an idea, when they should have something ready. And it helps them make decisions. They can decide to leave some part out just to make it ready. Finally, I think we also need a place, where this all is available for those who need access to it. It does not help that there is a schedule, if people don't know it. And telling people, what is happening and when, makes it a lot easier for them to take part in doing it. And then people having the skills, can see where their skills are bringing most value. Rgs, Jussi Bruce Momjian wrote: >Alexey Borzov wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Bruce Momjian wrote: >> >> >>>>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release, >>>>>which could be in the next few weeks? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>No. >>>> >>>> >>>OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release >>>evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't >>>get a group together to update a web site? >>> >>> >>Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name >>people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on >>the website? >> >> > >I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who >we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved. > > > >>How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website? >> >> > >Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in >there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong. > > > -- Jussi Mikkola Partner, Project Manager Bonware Oy gsm +358 40 830 7561 Tekniikantie 21 tel +358 9 2517 5570 02150 Espoo fax +358 9 2517 5571 Finland www.bonware.com