Thread: PostgreSQL Training
Hello, everyone. I am VERY new, as in simply researching possibilities, to SQL Servers in any shape or form. However, I do have a question: on the PostgreSQL website (About Us >> Advantages) it mentions: "In addition to this our training programs are generally regarded as being far more cost effective, manageable, and practical in the real world than that of the leading proprietary database vendors. " Where's the training? I can't find any other information about this remarkable training on their website. Can someone point me in the right direction? Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN
I have a table with 10,000 rows. We have an application that parses a *.csv file and uploads the data to the database table. The csv parser takes the column numbers form the csv file and matches the column numbers to the field positions in the DB table. Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7. Anyone know how to do that? Thanks, Derrick
Amy Young wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am VERY new, as in simply researching possibilities, to SQL Servers in > any shape or form. > > However, I do have a question: on the PostgreSQL website (About Us >> > Advantages) it mentions: > "In addition to this our training programs are generally regarded as > being far more cost effective, manageable, and practical in the real > world than that of the leading proprietary database vendors. > " > > Where's the training? I can't find any other information about this > remarkable training on their website. Can someone point me in the right > direction? I think that is about the author of the web site, and is being removed. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> I think that is about the author of the web site, and is > being removed. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard certification/training? Bryan
Bryan Encina wrote: > > I think that is about the author of the web site, and is > > being removed. > > > > -- > > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > > Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed > wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being > strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard > certification/training? No, we don't know how to certify it reliably as a community. I have training in Atlanta and don't have a huge number of folks, so if they want training, they don't want mine. :-( -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 > From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> > To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > > I think that is about the author of the web site, and is > > being removed. > > > > -- > > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > > Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed > wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being > strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard > certification/training? > > Bryan > > I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone, off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list, about the "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days" book, which is advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist. The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below, the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way. A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the discussion, by searching, using google, for "PostgreSQL certification". As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to obtain the "Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days" book, which does exist, work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4 Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus, obtaining open source database development skills and certification with MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills. It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related certification. From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than major commercial DBMS's, but PostgreSQL apparently lacks formal assessment and certification of skills in the same way that MySQL has, thus making training and certification for PostgreSQL, lacking in comparison. The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications, like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I understand, similarly, internationally recognised. Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is that practitioners appear to be hack-programmers (I do not mean that in a derogatory way, but, in the sense of being lacking in formal training and certification in PostgreSQL skills), in the absence of formalised training and certification. I understand that, as with PostgreSQL, in the Perl community, resistance to any form of skills certification, exists. This is found by similarly searching on "Perl certification". Thus, is the existence of the title, as apparently used by many Perl programmers; JAPH - Just Another Perl Hacker. That too, has been mentioned, in the discussions about the prospect of Perl certification I am not intending to troll, or to enter into any brand flame war with this (and I hope that this message is not misconstrued as flaming or trolling, but, rather, taken as the constructive criticism as it is intended to be); however, I think that the lack of training and certification facilities such as exist for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, is a bit disappointing, and leaves the path that I intend to take, as the only option available, to get into development using PostgreSQL. I personally, believe, and, suggest, that formalised, structured, training, and, international assessment and certification, as exists and as is supposed to be being developed for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, would go a long way to increased public acceptance of PostgreSQL, and, to the maturity of PostgreSQL, and would thus lead to increased public use of PostgreSQL. (And, a good Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book, would be good, too :) . ) My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people, and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which she develops. However, when the issue of open source software development, such as in PostgreSQL, arises, her employer company apparently steers away from it, instead, steering toward software development, using software tools that are internationally recognised and in which certification is available, and, I believe that her employer company regards things like PostgreSQL, as the dark and murky unknown, especially in the absence of any recognised formal training and certification. It is one thing to say that PostgreSQL is big and powerful, and that it is (or, as I believe, is) the most ANSI-SQL standards-compliant DBMS, and that it is used for such major projects as (as I believe) the .org registry, but, in the absence of recognition of PostgreSQL as being backed by formal training and certification, it is difficult to obtain acceptance of PostgreSQL. But, the issue of formal and structured training and certification in PostgreSQL, is something to be decided by the PostgreSQL guru's, I believe, and, until they implement these things, we are left in the dark, and, required to do things such as travel the path that I have mentioned, via MySQL. And, it is always possible, that, in following such a path, and having obtained MySQL certification, a person may stay with MySQL, thus, the path of formalised training and certification, taking potential software developers, and, thence, potential customers, to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL. Thus, whilst, if I chose that path, it might not be any great loss, if others followed that path, and, went to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL, due to the lack of formalised training and certification of PostgreSQL skills, it would be a loss of potential usage and acceptance, by PostgreSQL, kind of like PostgreSQL shooting itself in its feet. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .............. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 ....................................................
Derrick Betts wrote: > I have a table with 10,000 rows. We have an application that parses a *.csv > file and uploads the data to the database table. The csv parser takes the > column numbers form the csv file and matches the column numbers to the field > positions in the DB table. > > Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv > parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7. > > Anyone know how to do that? You could DROP and re-CREATE the table. CREATE TABLE tmp AS SELECT col1, col3, col2 FROM mytab; DROP TABLE mytab; ALTER TABLE tmp RENAME TO mytab; _BUT_: You need to take care of special cases like UNIQUE & FOREIGN KEYs etc., i.e. usually you need a better CREATE clause than this easy example. > Thanks, > Derrick HTH -- e-Trolley Sayegh & John, Nabil Sayegh Tel.: 0700 etrolley /// 0700 38765539 Fax.: +49 69 8299381-8 PGP : http://www.e-trolley.de
Bret, Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through "Greek". I need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing in the office. So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be asking as many questions on the list server as I can. Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Bret Busby Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 > From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> > To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training >
Hi, Why worry? I'm sure that most of the guys in this list didn't have dedicated PostgreSQL training (I didn't for sure). You have lots of tutorials and (not to forget) a great documentation set on the Postgres website. There are also the mailing lists with people who like to help you. And remember: in a open source community, you'll never be alone ;-) Cheers! Wim Amy Young wrote: >Bret, > >Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. > >I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. >Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design >through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just >pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we >are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of >data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL >server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the >free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 >person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with >PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to >be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. >Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the >server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. > >I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the >concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through "Greek". I >need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and >have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some >strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for >something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing in the office. >So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. > >In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book (I have used the >series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the >need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far >as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I >used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want >someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can >learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be >asking as many questions on the list server as I can. > >Cheers, > >Amy Young >Sr. Revenue Analyst >Memphis, TN > >-----Original Message----- >From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org >[mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Bret Busby >Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM >To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org >Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > >On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > > >>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 >>From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> >>To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> >>Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org >>Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training >> >> >> > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > > >
Yes I did that and lost all the connections to my sequences. Tom On 10 Dec 2003 at 13:16, Nabil Sayegh wrote: > Derrick Betts wrote: > > I have a table with 10,000 rows. We have an application that parses a *.csv > > file and uploads the data to the database table. The csv parser takes the > > column numbers form the csv file and matches the column numbers to the field > > positions in the DB table. > > > > Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv > > parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7. > > > > Anyone know how to do that? > > You could DROP and re-CREATE the table. > > CREATE TABLE tmp AS SELECT col1, col3, col2 FROM mytab; > DROP TABLE mytab; > ALTER TABLE tmp RENAME TO mytab; > > _BUT_: You need to take care of special cases like UNIQUE & FOREIGN KEYs > etc., i.e. usually you need a better CREATE clause than this easy example. > > > > Thanks, > > Derrick > > HTH > -- > e-Trolley Sayegh & John, Nabil Sayegh > Tel.: 0700 etrolley /// 0700 38765539 > Fax.: +49 69 8299381-8 > PGP : http://www.e-trolley.de > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >
Dear Amy Young ,
You will get full support from this PostgreSQL community but before asking question please do add some common things like
My System Configuration is :
OS Blah
GCC compiler More Blah
PostgreSQL server Version Even More Blah
PostgreSQL data path /mydir/myblah/data
And yes If you are using PHP or Perl for data representation their full details
And then state your full problem / question with steps if possible
Here we are to help you , am I right guys :-) and Mr. Bruce are you listening
Regards,
V Kashyap.
You will get full support from this PostgreSQL community but before asking question please do add some common things like
My System Configuration is :
OS Blah
GCC compiler More Blah
PostgreSQL server Version Even More Blah
PostgreSQL data path /mydir/myblah/data
And yes If you are using PHP or Perl for data representation their full details
And then state your full problem / question with steps if possible
Here we are to help you , am I right guys :-) and Mr. Bruce are you listening
Regards,
V Kashyap.
Bret, Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through "Greek". I need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing in the office. So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be asking as many questions on the list server as I can. Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Bret Busby Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster .
Thanks for everyone's support. I really appreciate it. I will admit that I learn *best* -- at least in the beginning -- through structured, formalized face-to-face training. But, there does appear to be a community of support here. I haven't started with the basics out of the book yet, so I think I'll start there (I'm at the VERY beginning, and don't want to bog down the list with TOO basic questions). But, rest assured, I'll be back.
Thanks again,
Amy
-----Original Message----Dear Amy Young ,
From: sank89@sancharnet.in [mailto:sank89@sancharnet.in]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:18 AM
To: Amy Young
Cc: Bret Busby; pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Importance: High
You will get full support from this PostgreSQL community but before asking question please do add some common things like
My System Configuration is :
OS Blah
GCC compiler More Blah
PostgreSQL server Version Even More Blah
PostgreSQL data path /mydir/myblah/data
And yes If you are using PHP or Perl for data representation their full details
And then state your full problem / question with steps if possible
Here we are to help you , am I right guys :-) and Mr. Bruce are you listening
Regards,
V Kashyap.Bret, Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through "Greek". I need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing in the office. So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be asking as many questions on the list server as I can. Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Bret Busby Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster .
Bret.....
> The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications,
> like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I
> understand, similarly, internationally recognised.
In my experience these have less to do with being proficient at a
disipline and more to do with marketing (of the individual holding the
certificate and of the application). The people here are more doers than
marketers.
That being said, PostgreSQL could sure use some more marketing.
> My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people,
> and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which
> she develops.
Sounds like there is room for YOU and your wife could get involved in
setting up and administering some kind of PorstgreSQL certification
program! I have no idea if this would be feasible in the PostgreSQL
community or not, and I've read here that Red Hat is doing just that with
their dialect of the PostgreSQL server (maybe somebody else can
elaborate).
As far as books, I just know returned a book to the library, 'Learn SQL
in 14 days' or something similiar (sorry, don't remember the author)
and the concepts presented there (which includes triggers and
procedures, etc.) are transferrable to any SQL database.
There are some good PostgreSQL specific books, too (including Bruce
Momjian's). If you think there is a need for a basic starter's guide to
PostgreSQL you might put one together and offer it (for money, or
otherwise!).
You are right in that PostgreSQL could benefit from more marketing.
The world is your oyster!
brew
==========================================================================
Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com)
Check out my Musician's Online Database Exchange (The MODE Pages)
http://www.TheMode.com
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL > training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in > the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all, some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.
On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 12:03, Stephan Szabo wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
> > training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
> > the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is
>
> I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
> and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all,
> some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are
> in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't
> generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second
> group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs
> it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A
> small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then
> doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk.
>
Please be aware there are several companies that do provide training,
check the main website for examples. Furthermore Bruce Momjian does a
semi-annual training class himself, and has mentioned that people are
not exactly beating a path to his door. Just because the
training/certification is not centralized and dictated doesn't mean it
is not available.
Furthermore if you're really interested in learning about databases and
want some type of certification, I'd strongly recommend learning oracle
or even m$ before going to my$ql, both are more fundamentally oriented
toward postgresql. Actually I'd earmark your training dollars for
something like the Open Source conference, which usually provides a good
chunk of information.
As far as books go, I think the best book on the market right now is
probably Korry Douglas' book "PostgreSQL", but I think you'll find most
people here recommend you read books like SQL for Smarties (Celko),
Practical Issues in Database Management (Pascal), or An Introduction to
Database Systems (Date). Much to the chagrin of Herr Fabian, we aren't
just here to push a product, we want users to be educated.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Stephan Szabo wrote: > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:03:56 -0800 (PST) > From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com> > To: Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org, pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote: > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL > > training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in > > the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is > > I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training > and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all, > some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are > in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't > generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second > group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs > it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A > small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then > doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk. > > The resistance to which I referred, is exemplified in the discussion that I cited, from the google search. cf the thread "PostgreSQL certification", started by the query posted by Diogo Biazus, dated 24 October 2003, as found from the list archives. I was slightly incorrect, however, in that that thread was on the ADVOCACY list, not the GENERAL list as I had previously mentioned. However, it would have been found, by using the google seartch that I cited in my previous posting. Only four results to the google search, were displayed; the PostgreSQL mailing list discussion that I cited, being the first displayed result. The basis for the resistance, was apparently not a cost or time based opposition, but, opposition to certification itself; opposition to the concepts of certification and standardisation of skills assessment. Reading the messages of that thread, would lead to a better understanding of the opposition to certification. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .............. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 ....................................................
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com> writes:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:
>> Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
>> training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
>> the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is
> I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training
> and certification costs money.
I think there *would* be resistance to labeling anything as "official
PostgreSQL certification", mainly because of the problem of who gets
to decide which things are "official". No one will object if companies
set up training and skills-testing programs about PostgreSQL, they just
can't claim to be officially blessed by the project. As a comparison
point, Red Hat's RHCE certifications for Linux seem to be pretty well
respected, but no one thinks they are officially blessed by Linus or
anything like that. Red Hat is the only name standing behind them.
(Disclaimer: I have no reason to think that Red Hat might offer any
such certification program for Postgres in the foreseeable future.
Too bad.)
MySQL is more able than we are to set up "official" training and
certification programs, because there isn't any doubt who owns the
right to do so: MySQL AB. But whether having one company control the
project is a net benefit is pretty dubious IMHO.
regards, tom lane
On 10 Dec 2003, Robert Treat wrote: > Date: 10 Dec 2003 14:06:45 -0500 > From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> > To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com> > Cc: Bret Busby <bret@busby.net>, pgsql-novice@postgresql.org, > "pgsql-general@postgresql.org" <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 12:03, Stephan Szabo wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL > > > training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in > > > the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is > > > > I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training > > and certification costs money. Some of us don't do this as a job at all, > > some are in relatively small companies doing support/hosting and some are > > in unrelated fields and just use it. The first and third group aren't > > generally going to run training, it's outside what they do. The second > > group generally either doesn't have the money to do it, or at least needs > > it to be truly obviously profitable before they can really consider it. A > > small company that puts down a few months to set up training and then > > doesn't get enough people to break even goes away, it's a pretty big risk. > > > > Please be aware there are several companies that do provide training, > check the main website for examples. Furthermore Bruce Momjian does a > semi-annual training class himself, and has mentioned that people are > not exactly beating a path to his door. Just because the > training/certification is not centralized and dictated doesn't mean it > is not available. > > Furthermore if you're really interested in learning about databases and > want some type of certification, I'd strongly recommend learning oracle > or even m$ before going to my$ql, both are more fundamentally oriented > toward postgresql. Actually I'd earmark your training dollars for > something like the Open Source conference, which usually provides a good > chunk of information. > > As far as books go, I think the best book on the market right now is > probably Korry Douglas' book "PostgreSQL", but I think you'll find most > people here recommend you read books like SQL for Smarties (Celko), > Practical Issues in Database Management (Pascal), or An Introduction to > Database Systems (Date). Much to the chagrin of Herr Fabian, we aren't > just here to push a product, we want users to be educated. > > > Robert Treat > Regarding the PostgreSQL training that is provided by companies, a problem with that, as it exists, is that, insofar as I am aware, that training is not standardised, standardisation of training, being a probable requirement of formal certification and standardised skills assessment. Another problem, is that the companies, and, Bruce Momjian, provide their individual training courses, but, they are where they are, and I am where I am, and, there are interested people, scattered over the world. Thus, Bruce Momjian, for example, may be a good trainer, but, as I am here, and he is wherever he is, "and ne'er the twain shall meet". Here in Perth (Armadale is a suburb of Perth), Western Australia, for example, there are institutions that provide training and certification, in the RHCE, LPI, MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, etc, courses, which are standardised courses, which, as I have previously mentioned, involve standardised skillset training and assessments. But, this is a (relatively) small city, of only about a million or so people, in a remote corner of the world, and, we have no dedicated companies providing PostgreSQL training, which appears (from what I have seen so far) to be available only in the USA. Thus, for those training and certification courses, that I have mentioned as being available here, they are available to me, and, likely, to most (if not everyone) on these lists, and, they should be at the same standards and levels of competency, and have the same course content, regardless of location, due to the standardisation of those courses and certifications. But, the PostgreSQL training, insofar as I am ware, is both not standardised, and, completely localised. Thus, if PostgreSQL training is available in any form (as in classes or courses), where a person is, who is on one of these lists, another person on these lists (such as me and others here), might not be able to trundle off to Salt Lake City or New York for the day, to attend such training courses, and, thus, the training courses are unavailable, and, using those two locations, the training that is available in Salt Lake City, may be different, in content (as in topics), and, in quality, and, in level of competency. So, for example, in Salt Lake City, a person might have only PostgreSQL training courses available, that involve installing and configuring PostgreSQL, in New York, a person might have courses that involve developing web applications using PostgreSQL, and, wherever he is, Bruce Momjian might offer courses that result in becoming a PostgreSQL Guru. These are reasons that formalised, structured, standardised, training and certifications, could make it much more accessible, and, simpler, to obtain recognisable PostgreSQL skills, for which accreditation and thence formal recognition, could be obtained. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .............. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 ....................................................
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Tom Lane wrote: > Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone.bigpanda.com> writes: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote: > >> Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL > >> training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in > >> the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is > > > I don't think there's a resistance to them except that setting up training > > and certification costs money. > > I think there *would* be resistance to labeling anything as "official > PostgreSQL certification", mainly because of the problem of who gets > to decide which things are "official". No one will object if companies If we wanted something like that, it'd presumably end up being the community's responsibility to be doing some level of oversight. Possibly initial test/class material creation would be done that way too. I don't really think we have people that could put in the effort necessary to build and then maintain such a system at the moment though, but I'm not sure that such a thing would necessarily be impossible. > (Disclaimer: I have no reason to think that Red Hat might offer any > such certification program for Postgres in the foreseeable future. > Too bad.) It is, because they're probably the closest group we have to being able to offer a reasonably large scale centralized training/testing program.
Amy, As a user from a non-techie background, I feel your pain. In fact, it was limitations in MS Access that got me using PostgreSQL. You are seeing one of the downsides of open source software, which is that learning is self driven to a large extent. But you can benefit from the fact that PostgreSQL is highly standards-compliant; any generic course or materials on SQL or relational databases will be applicable. Other features of PostgreSQL have their equivalents elsewhere. For example, the procedural SQL language pl/pgsql was modeled on Oracle pl/sql. While pl/pgsql does not implement many of the features of the Oracle equivalent, any basic introductory materials on Oracle pl/sql will get you off to a flying start with pl/pgsql. Most popular programming languages have some sort of interface available, so those languages can be used to create applications that use PostgreSQL. In fact, MS Access works well as a front end for PostgreSQL, using ODBC. Just go to http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/psqlodbc to find what you need to get started. And you can easily migrate your Access database to PostgreSQL using the Database Migration Wizard that comes with PGAdminII: http://pgadmin.postgresql.org/pgadmin2/pgadmin2.php So far as installing and administering PostgreSQL, your best shot is to use a package. Different types of packages are available, depending on which operating system you are using. The packages are set up to automatically handle most of the installation and setup for you, with little driving necessary. That will get you off and running with the least effort. You will find that default configurations will be plenty for someone migrating from MS Access: you can leave the fine points for later. In other words, don't be put off by the lack of courses. There are plenty of materials available; besides the official documentation, there are plenty of other helpful guides and howtos (look for links on http://www.postgresql.org), there are a number of good books, the mailing list archives are full of searchable discussions of just about any problem you might encounter, and let's not forget the friendly and helpful people on these lists! Comments on other choices: commercial choices will lead you to much expense, complexity of administration, and vendor lock in. MySQL: well, just search the mailing lists for much discussion of the many shortcomings of that product when it comes to handling mission critical data. So, by all means give PostgreSQL at try. It's not as hard as it looks, and you won't regret it. HTH, Jeff --- Amy Young <Amy_Young@hilton.com> wrote: > Bret, > > Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as > loudly as I can. > > I work for a small 5 member team in a major > hospitality corporation. > Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help > desk, tool design > through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate > reporting). We are just > pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with > the amount of data we > are getting pushed to us for our corporate > reporting. The amount of > data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to > move to a SQL > server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge > factor, so the > free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely > enticing. However, only 1 > person on our team has ANY experience with SQL > servers and none with > PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating > MySQL, but found it to > be slower than the convoluted work around we've > developed in MS Access. > Further investigation revealed that it may be due to > how we had the > server set up. Then, someone suggestions > PostgreSQL. > > I have been reading what I can, and while I > understand some of the > concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way > through "Greek". I > need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found > the MySQL class and > have added that to my goals for next year. However, > it will take some > strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me > to training for > something that will "sort of" apply to what we are > doing in the office. > So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to > training. > > In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" > book (I have used the > series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL > community will recognize the > need for some training classes (The certifications > are optional as far > as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of > certifications since I > used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training > Center. I just want > someone to hold my hand and walk me through the > entire process so I can > learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on > my own). And I'll be > asking as many questions on the list server as I > can. > > Cheers, > > Amy Young > Sr. Revenue Analyst > Memphis, TN > > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf > Of Bret Busby > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM > To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; > pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 > > From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> > > To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> > > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > > > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
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> Now, I have to change the position of a column in the DB to match the csv
> parser. I have a column in position 28 that I need to move to position 7.
>
> Anyone know how to do that?
Why not preprocess the csv file before uploading it to the DB? Here's a way
to do it in quickly in Perl. 10K rows should be no problem:
$,=',';
while(<F>) {
my @foo = split(/,/ => $_);
splice(@foo,6,0,splice(@foo,27,1));
print @foo;
}
or if your csv is not so simple (e.g. contains escaped commas):
use Text::CSV_XS;
$,=',';
my $csv = Text::CSV_XS->new();
while(<F>) {
die "Cannot parse line $.: " . $csv->error_input . "\n" unless $csv->parse($_);
my @foo = $csv->fields();
print @foo[0..5,27,6..26,28..@foo-1]; ## alternative to split()
print "\n";
}
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312102158
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For what it's worth: If you can find an old server some place that you can throw a copy of PostgreSQL on, play with it. Break it. Fix it. Play with it some more. As an old education major (who got into this biz quite by accident) I know that people "learn" differently, and that they often have the best results by learning via the method that best suits their needs. But, one advantage of playing with it in the manner I describe is that you don't get locked into the opinions or prejudices of the person doing the training. When faced with the probability of using PostgreSQL in a project, I followed the "Getting Started" section from the documentation on my linux box at home. I installed it, played with it, wiped it out and started again. A little painful at first, but in my opinion, the dividends were HUGE. Again, your mileage may vary. Good luck, Frank --- Amy Young <Amy_Young@hilton.com> wrote: > Thanks for everyone's support. I really appreciate it. I will admit > that I learn *best* -- at least in the beginning -- through > structured, > formalized face-to-face training. But, there does appear to be a > community of support here. I haven't started with the basics out of > the > book yet, so I think I'll start there (I'm at the VERY beginning, and > don't want to bog down the list with TOO basic questions). But, rest > assured, I'll be back. > > Thanks again, > > Amy > > -----Original Message---- > From: sank89@sancharnet.in [mailto:sank89@sancharnet.in] > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:18 AM > To: Amy Young > Cc: Bret Busby; pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; > pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > Importance: High > > > Dear Amy Young , > > You will get full support from this PostgreSQL community but > before asking question please do add some common things like > My System Configuration is : > OS Blah > GCC compiler More Blah > PostgreSQL server Version Even More Blah > PostgreSQL data path /mydir/myblah/data > And yes If you are using PHP or Perl for data representation > their full details > > And then state your full problem / question with steps if > possible > > Here we are to help you , am I right guys :-) and Mr. > Bruce are you listening > > Regards, > V Kashyap. > > > > Bret, > > Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as > loudly as I can. > > I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality > corporation. > Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, > tool design > through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate > reporting). We are just > pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the > amount of data we > are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. > The amount of > data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to > move to a SQL > server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, > so the > free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. > However, only 1 > person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers > and none with > PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, > but found it to > be slower than the convoluted work around we've > developed in MS Access. > Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how > we had the > server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. > > I have been reading what I can, and while I understand > some of the > concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way > through "Greek". I > need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the > MySQL class and > have added that to my goals for next year. However, it > will take some > strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to > training for > something that will "sort of" apply to what we are doing > in the office. > So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to > training. > > In the mean time, I will investigate the "21 day" book > (I have used the > series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community > will recognize the > need for some training classes (The certifications are > optional as far > as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of > certifications since I > used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. > I just want > someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire > process so I can > learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my > own). And I'll be > asking as many questions on the list server as I can. > > Cheers, > > Amy Young > Sr. Revenue Analyst > Memphis, TN > > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-novice-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of > Bret Busby > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM > To: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org; > pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 > From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org> > <mailto:bryan.encina@valleypres.org> > To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> > <mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > . > > > > > ===== Frank Way E-Mail: fgw_three@yahoo.com "Place guards on all the roads and keep the troops from running to the rear..." MG John Buford, 1863 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/