Thread: Fast Forward (fwd)
Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not already done so. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo atPop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ========================================================================== ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:30:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@postgresql.org> To: prooney@cmp.com Cc: crnltr2edit@cmp.com Subject: Fast Forward Where do you get your info? Do you just make it up? PostgreSQL is not a product of Great Bridge and never has been. It's 100% independant. Is Linux a keyword you figure you can use to draw readers? Won't take long before folks determine you're full of it. The PostgreSQL team takes great pride (not to be confused with great bridge) in ensuring that the work we do runs on ALL platforms; be it Mac's OSX, FreeBSD 4.3, or even Windows 2000. So why do you figure this is a Great Bridge product? Why do you figure it's Linux only? What is it with you writers lately? Are you getting lazy and simply using Linux as a quick out for a paycheck? I rarely (if ever) sign my name as a member of the PostgreSQL team, but this time I'm making an exception 'cuze you crossed the line. I also very rarely get involved in this politlcal crap, but you've crossed the line on that as well. The ENTIRE PostgreSQL team awaits your WRITTEN apology as does every support organisation listed on the website. Vince Vielhaber - Webmaster for PostgreSQL.org
On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:17:15AM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After > chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. > ... > Where do you get your info? Do you just make it up? PostgreSQL is > not a product of Great Bridge and never has been. It's 100% independant. > Is Linux a keyword you figure you can use to draw readers? Won't take > long before folks determine you're full of it. The PostgreSQL team takes > great pride (not to be confused with great bridge) in ensuring that the > work we do runs on ALL platforms; be it Mac's OSX, FreeBSD 4.3, or even > Windows 2000. So why do you figure this is a Great Bridge product? Why > do you figure it's Linux only? What is it with you writers lately? Are > you getting lazy and simply using Linux as a quick out for a paycheck? This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_ _possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the future. When they have to mention it, their reporting will be colored by their personal experience. They (and their readers) don't run the code, so they must get their impressions from those who do. Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check facts. None of the errors in the article matter. Nobody will develop an enduring impression of PG from them. What matters is that PG is being mentioned in the same article with Oracle. In her limited way, she did the PG community the biggest favor in her limited power, and all we can do is attack? It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. Thank her graciously for making an effort, and offer to help her check her facts next time. PostgreSQL needs friends in the press, even if they are ignorant or lazy. It doesn't need any enemies in the press. Nathan Myers ncm@zembu.com
On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Nathan Myers wrote: > This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_ > _possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers > will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates > are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are favorable attention?? > dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her > editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the > future. woo hoo, if that is the result, then I think Vince did us a great service, not dis-service ... > Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are > both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is > like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to > regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to > learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check > facts. Out of all the articles on PgSQL that I've read over the years, this one should have been shot before it hit the paper (so to say) ... it was the most blatantly inaccurate article I've ever read ... > It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who > wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it works, or of its history :(
To top it all off, their comments are broken -- I submitted mine and it displays Marc's again (until you click on the link of course).. *sigh* they must be using MySQL. :-) -Mitch ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Hermit Hacker" <scrappy@hub.org> To: <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Fast Forward (fwd) > On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Nathan Myers wrote: > > > This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_ > > _possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers > > will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates > > are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are > > favorable attention?? > > > dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her > > editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the > > future. > > woo hoo, if that is the result, then I think Vince did us a great service, > not dis-service ... > > > Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are > > both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is > > like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to > > regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to > > learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check > > facts. > > Out of all the articles on PgSQL that I've read over the years, this one > should have been shot before it hit the paper (so to say) ... it was the > most blatantly inaccurate article I've ever read ... > > > It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who > > wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. > > In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the > wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl > that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it > works, or of its history :( > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >
> *sigh* they must be using MySQL. :-) *rofl*
> > Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After > chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. > > Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also > insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather > disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not > already done so. I haven't had time to read the article. Easter weekend, ya know. Not sure how corrections are made to on-line articles, but I would think the publisher would be glad to fix what is wrong. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> > Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After > chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. > > Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also > insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather > disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not > already done so. One more thing. This is a minor media outlet, so I don't get too worked up to fix it right away. I assume no one is there on the weekend anyway. If it was a major distributor of information, I would be more inclined to get it fixed rapidly. I did skim the article, but did not read it. When I don't recognize the publisher, I have a tendency to just ignore PostgreSQL press. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> > It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who > > wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. > > In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the > wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl > that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it > works, or of its history :( This echos my earlier observation. Many of these writers for minor publications just throw the information together. I can't be bothered to jump every time tney make a major mistake because they have not done any work on their part to get the correct story. Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Bruce Momjian wrote: > Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it. Well, in a way I regret bringing it to the attention of the community -- just in a small way. But at the same time I realized that I was not the right one at that time to craft a reply -- after all, I'm a Baptist preacher. And we tend towards the 'getting worked up' side of things. So I've learned that there are times I shouldn't post at all. Although, that's been a long hard learning experience, one that I am still, to use my wife's charitable words, 'gaining mastery of.' It should be fixed. But community members need a levelheaded response to a likely honest omission of facts. I may very well do so, tomorrow. One of the worst facets of the Linux community, for example, is its often predatoryform of 'advocacy' -- this group is more civil than that, IMHO. She likely is off for the weekend, and hasn't read any responses yet. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 11:44:48AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Nathan Myers wrote: > > > This is probably a good time to point out that this is the _worst_ > > _possible_ response to erroneous reportage. The perception by readers > > will not be that the reporter failed, but that PostgreSQL advocates > > are rabid weasels who don't appreciate favorable attention, and are > > favorable attention?? Yes, totally favorable. There wasn't a hint of the condescension typically accorded free software. All of the details you find so objectionable (April vs. June? "The" marketing arm vs. "a" marketing arm?) would not even be noticed by a non-cultist. > > dangerous to write anything about. You can bet this reporter and her > > editor will treat the topic very circumspectly (i.e. avoid it) in the > > future. > > woo hoo, if that is the result, then I think Vince did us a great service, > not dis-service ... False. This may have been the reporter's and the editor's first direct exposure to free software advocates. You guys came across as hate-filled religious whackos, and that reflects on all of us. > > Most reporters are ignorant, most reporters are lazy, and many are > > both. It's part of the job description. Getting angry about it is > > like getting angry at birds for fouling their cage. Their job is to > > regurgitate what they're given, and quickly. They have no time to > > learn the depths, or to write coherently about it, or even to check > > facts. > > Out of all the articles on PgSQL that I've read over the years, this one > should have been shot before it hit the paper (so to say) ... it was the > most blatantly inaccurate article I've ever read ... It had a number of minor errors, easily corrected. The next will probably talk about what a bunch of nasty cranks and lunatics PostgreSQL fans are, unless you who wrote can display a lot more finesse in your apologies. Thanks a lot, guys. > > It will be harder than the original mailings, but I urge each who > > wrote to write again and apologize for attacking her. > > In a way, I think you are right .. I think the attack was aimed at the > wrong ppl :( She obviously didn't get *any* of her information from ppl > that belong *in* the Pg community, or that have any knowledge of how it > works, or of its history :( How is this reporter going to have developed contacts within the community? She has just started. Now you've burnt her to a crisp, and she will figure the less contact with that "community" she has, the happier she'll be. Her editor will know that mentioning PG in any context will result in a raft of hate mail from cranks, and will treat press releases from our community with the scorn they have earned. Reporters are fragile creatures, and must be gently guided toward the light. They will always get facts wrong, but that matter not at all. The overall tone of the writing is the only thing that stays with their equally dim audience. That dim audience controls the budgets for technology deployment, including databases. Next time you propose a deployment on PG instead of Oracle, thank Vince et al. when it's dismissed as a crank toy. Finally, their talkback page was most probably implemented _not_ with MySQL, but with MS SQL Server. These intramural squabbles (between MySQL and PG, between Linux and BSD, between NetBSD and OpenBSD) are justifiably seen as pathetic in the outside world. Respectful attention among projects doesn't just create a better impression, it also allows you, maybe, to learn something. (MySQL is not objectively as good as PG, but those guys are doing something right, in their presentation, that some of us could learn from.) Nathan Myers ncm@zembu.com
> > Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After > chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. > > Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also > insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather > disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not > already done so. OK, I read the article. Seems there are two major mistakes. First, they equate Great Bridge with PostgreSQL, and second, they don't know the history of PostgreSQL. If they fixed those two mistakes, the article would be OK. Seems like they have already been contacted and hopefully they will correct this. (Not sure how they do that.) In reading the article, I have to ask myself, "How upset would I be if they had equated PostgreSQL, Inc or another company with PostgreSQL?" Well, I certainly wouldn't like it, and would try to get it corrected. However, I wouldn't consider it a major problem. The press makes mistakes like this all the time, and this press outlet is just too small to worry about. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
the thing that pissed me off the most, and set me off, was the totally blatant errors ... we've had other articles written, with a GB slant to them, that didn't get my feathers in a ruffle ... the fact that they *talked* with GB, got quotes from them and some of their partners, and *still* got the facts wrong, is what got me heated ... On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > Here's my response to the inaccurate article cmp produced. After > > chatting with Marc I decided to post it myself. > > > > Since I know Ned reads this list, I formally request that he also > > insists PUBLICALLY that cmp correct their inaccuracies. I'm rather > > disappointed (for lack of a more descriptive word) that Bruce has not > > already done so. > > OK, I read the article. Seems there are two major mistakes. First, > they equate Great Bridge with PostgreSQL, and second, they don't know > the history of PostgreSQL. > > If they fixed those two mistakes, the article would be OK. Seems like > they have already been contacted and hopefully they will correct this. > (Not sure how they do that.) > > In reading the article, I have to ask myself, "How upset would I be if > they had equated PostgreSQL, Inc or another company with PostgreSQL?" > Well, I certainly wouldn't like it, and would try to get it corrected. > However, I wouldn't consider it a major problem. The press makes > mistakes like this all the time, and this press outlet is just too small > to worry about. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Not that it shouldn't be fixed. I just don't get worked up over it. > > Well, in a way I regret bringing it to the attention of the community -- > just in a small way. > > But at the same time I realized that I was not the right one at that > time to craft a reply -- after all, I'm a Baptist preacher. And we tend > towards the 'getting worked up' side of things. So I've learned that > there are times I shouldn't post at all. Although, that's been a long > hard learning experience, one that I am still, to use my wife's > charitable words, 'gaining mastery of.' Funny you should mention this, because I was going to post something about this today too. Some people have wondered why I don't comment on some postings that obviously relate to me. I avoid rapidly replying to topics that attack me, my employer, my religious beliefs, or other things that are personally related to me. The reason is that my entering the discussion may prevent people from openly expressing their opinions on the topic, and that is usually bad. Whether I agree with their opinions or not, they are valid feelings people have. In a way, all feelings are valid. If someone feels a certain way, you can't argue they don't feel that way, because obviously they do. You can tell people why they shouldn't feel a certain way, but preventing them from expressing their feelings is usually a bad thing, unless their expression is hurting other people. (Hurting my feelings is OK.) I usually sit back until everyone's cards/feelings are on the table, and then decide if my saying anything will help or hurt. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
I wanted to comment on how we handled this article. Seems the author did not understand the company/open-source relationship. This is not a huge surprise. I have to explain it to my friends and relatives all the time. Now, our way of dealing with users who ask questions is to gently lead them to the answer. In this case, we have insulted the author. Hard to see how our users get gentle treatment while authors get insulted. Now, you can say that press people have to live up to a higher standard, and therefore deserve to be insulted when they get things wrong. If that is people's opinion, I can't argue with that. However, consider how many press people think Linux is developed by Red Hat. I bet there's a lot. The author didn't get the Berkely/FreeBSD/PostgreSQL relationship right either. Seems the author has a "relationship" problem. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> You can tell people why they shouldn't feel a certain way, but > preventing them from expressing their feelings is usually a bad thing, > unless their expression is hurting other people. (Hurting my feelings > is OK.) > > I usually sit back until everyone's cards/feelings are on the table, and > then decide if my saying anything will help or hurt. Oh, one more thing. I jump right into discussions if I can find a joke in the situation. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed. I'll submit it to the website soonish. [1] Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc.
> PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed.
> --
> Trond Eivind Glomsrød
> Red Hat, Inc.
It's about time RH saw the light and sync'd their release labeling with
ours ;)
- Thomas
Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: > > PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed. > > I'll submit it to the website soonish. > > [1] Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html And RPMs are also available for 7.1 on 7.1 in our RPM area. Red Hat 7.1 is _nice_. The PostgreSQL speed appears to be very good, compared to 6.2/7.0 with the 2.2 kernel. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
teg@redhat.com (Trond Eivind Glomsrød) writes: > PostgreSQL 7.1 on Red Hat Linux 7.1[1]: All 76 tests passed. > > I'll submit it to the website soonish. > > [1] Available this morning, http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2001/press_sevenone.html I've not been able to submit it - the URL http://www.postgresql.org/~vev/regress/ (which is referred to from the developer pages) results in a 404. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc.