Thread: Joining the OSA
All, Some of you may have noticed the launch of the Open Solutions Alliance: http://www.opensolutionsalliance.org/ A glance at the member logos will show you that 2/3 of the members either support the PostgreSQL project or PostgreSQL in their products or both: EnterpriseDB, CentricCRM, Hyperic, OpenBravo, JasperSoft, SpikeSource, Unisys. As such, we have been invited to join as a free member of the OSA. They'll put our logo under "Friends of the OSA" and we can put the OSA logo on Postgresql.org if we want to. The main reason we'd want to do this is that the OSA is dedicated to open source business application interoperability. Some of this interoperability will take place on the database layer, and by participating in the OSA we can encourage them to make all such interoperability PosgreSQL-friendly or even PostgreSQL-by-default. Also, being part of industry consortia makes us look "grown up" to the PHBs. --Josh Berkus
Josh Berkus wrote: > All, > > Some of you may have noticed the launch of the Open Solutions Alliance: > http://www.opensolutionsalliance.org/ > > A glance at the member logos will show you that 2/3 of the members > either support the PostgreSQL project or PostgreSQL in their products or > both: EnterpriseDB, CentricCRM, Hyperic, OpenBravo, JasperSoft, > SpikeSource, Unisys. > > As such, we have been invited to join as a free member of the OSA. > They'll put our logo under "Friends of the OSA" and we can put the OSA > logo on Postgresql.org if we want to. > > The main reason we'd want to do this is that the OSA is dedicated to > open source business application interoperability. Some of this > interoperability will take place on the database layer, and by > participating in the OSA we can encourage them to make all such > interoperability PosgreSQL-friendly or even PostgreSQL-by-default. > > Also, being part of industry consortia makes us look "grown up" to the > PHBs. Sounds fine to me. Joshua D. Drake > > --Josh Berkus > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
go for it :) LER -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 512-248-2683 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893 -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-advocacy-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Joshua D. Drake Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:49 PM To: Josh Berkus Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Joining the OSA Josh Berkus wrote: > All, > > Some of you may have noticed the launch of the Open Solutions Alliance: > http://www.opensolutionsalliance.org/ > > A glance at the member logos will show you that 2/3 of the members > either support the PostgreSQL project or PostgreSQL in their products or > both: EnterpriseDB, CentricCRM, Hyperic, OpenBravo, JasperSoft, > SpikeSource, Unisys. > > As such, we have been invited to join as a free member of the OSA. > They'll put our logo under "Friends of the OSA" and we can put the OSA > logo on Postgresql.org if we want to. > > The main reason we'd want to do this is that the OSA is dedicated to > open source business application interoperability. Some of this > interoperability will take place on the database layer, and by > participating in the OSA we can encourage them to make all such > interoperability PosgreSQL-friendly or even PostgreSQL-by-default. > > Also, being part of industry consortia makes us look "grown up" to the > PHBs. Sounds fine to me. Joshua D. Drake > > --Josh Berkus > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Josh Berkus wrote: > As such, we have been invited to join as a free member of the OSA. Who exactly would join and under what membership class? -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>> As such, we have been invited to join as a free member of the OSA.
>
> Who exactly would join and under what membership class?
>
The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh?
Joshua D. Drake
--
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Josh, Peter, > The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh? I'm not sure, either "community" or "friends", whichever doesn't carry a specific time donation requirement. SPI would sign the agreements, but delegates for OSA meetings would be selected here. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: > Josh, Peter, > > > The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh? > > I'm not sure, either "community" or "friends", whichever doesn't > carry a specific time donation requirement. SPI would sign the > agreements, but delegates for OSA meetings would be selected here. The "friends" agreement is not a membership, and I don't find any indication that it would give you any rights in the organization. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>> Josh, Peter,
>>
>>> The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh?
>> I'm not sure, either "community" or "friends", whichever doesn't
>> carry a specific time donation requirement. SPI would sign the
>> agreements, but delegates for OSA meetings would be selected here.
>
> The "friends" agreement is not a membership, and I don't find any
> indication that it would give you any rights in the organization.
>
The community one does.
Joshua D. Drake
--
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Am Donnerstag, 1. März 2007 22:41 schrieb Joshua D. Drake: > Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > Josh Berkus wrote: > >> Josh, Peter, > >> > >>> The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh? > >> > >> I'm not sure, either "community" or "friends", whichever doesn't > >> carry a specific time donation requirement. SPI would sign the > >> agreements, but delegates for OSA meetings would be selected here. > > > > The "friends" agreement is not a membership, and I don't find any > > indication that it would give you any rights in the organization. > > The community one does. But that one carries a specific time donation requirement, which was excluded above. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 1. März 2007 22:41 schrieb Joshua D. Drake:
>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>>> Josh Berkus wrote:
>>>> Josh, Peter,
>>>>
>>>>> The community class and it would be PostgreSQL, correct Josh?
>>>> I'm not sure, either "community" or "friends", whichever doesn't
>>>> carry a specific time donation requirement. SPI would sign the
>>>> agreements, but delegates for OSA meetings would be selected here.
>>> The "friends" agreement is not a membership, and I don't find any
>>> indication that it would give you any rights in the organization.
>> The community one does.
>
> But that one carries a specific time donation requirement, which was excluded
> above.
Hmpf. O.k., well what do people think about the idea of being part of
something for the sake of being part of it?
I don't know what to think on that.
Joshua D. Drake
--
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Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> But that one carries a specific time donation requirement, which was excluded >> above. > > Hmpf. O.k., well what do people think about the idea of being part of > something for the sake of being part of it? > > I don't know what to think on that. > > Joshua D. Drake That may be an area they can clarify a bit more. From the FAQ's - > How much does OSA membership cost? > OSA membership varies from $5,000 for integrators to $10,000 for ISVs. > Open source community members can join OSA with no fee and > collaborate by registering at www.OpenSolutionsAlliance.org. I wonder if "PostgreSQL" could join as an open source community member and be listed next to EnterpriseDB? or would a project with a non financial contribution be listed as a friend at the bottom? with some individuals from here being community members to give PostgreSQL a voice in any discussions? I would say we aren't integrators or ISV's but PostgreSQL would be used by them and that a presence and direct assistance from the PostgreSQL community would increase the likelihood that PostgreSQL would be used by any ISV's that are involved. Being a part of OSA can only create/increase the possibility of PostgreSQL being considered as an option. It may be a bit early to tell whether this project will be worthwhile, but I think that even if one of us participates in the discussions and provides some assistance with any integration issues and relays issues back to the relevant project members it would help to get PostgreSQL accepted/included more in any projects that are also involved. -- Shane Ambler pgSQL@Sheeky.Biz Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz
> From the FAQ's - >> How much does OSA membership cost? >> OSA membership varies from $5,000 for integrators to $10,000 for ISVs. >> Open source community members can join OSA with no fee and >> collaborate by registering at www.OpenSolutionsAlliance.org. > > I wonder if "PostgreSQL" could join as an open source community member > and be listed next to EnterpriseDB? or would a project with a non > financial contribution be listed as a friend at the bottom? with some > individuals from here being community members to give PostgreSQL a voice > in any discussions? The community, if it choose do join should do it as itself. We have the ability to legally join organizations because we are part of SPI (http://www.spi-inc.org). > Being a part of OSA can only create/increase the possibility of > PostgreSQL being considered as an option. Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that this is a brand new thing with zero history of anything but pretty press releases. We (as in the FOSS community) have already had several of those organizations created. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
Folks, EnterpriseDB has committed to making sure our participation quotient for OSA membership is taken care of. Given that, are there any further objections to joining? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Folks,
>
> EnterpriseDB has committed to making sure our participation quotient for OSA
> membership is taken care of. Given that, are there any further objections to
> joining?
>
In general no, but ... it may be a consideration that this is a brand
new "alliance" that has zero track record, and is partially duplicative
of our efforts with SPI.
Joshua D. Drake
--
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Josh, > In general no, but ... it may be a consideration that this is a brand > new "alliance" that has zero track record, and is partially duplicative > of our efforts with SPI. Not duplicative AFAIK. I don't know that SPI has any plans to work on inter-project integration. Which is what OSA is about. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote: > EnterpriseDB has committed to making sure our participation quotient > for OSA membership is taken care of. Given that, are there any > further objections to joining? My question remains: Who exactly would join and under what membership class? -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
Peter, > My question remains: Who exactly would join and under what membership > class? The PostgreSQL Project, through SPI, as a "Community Member". -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote:
> > My question remains: Who exactly would join and under what
> > membership class?
>
> The PostgreSQL Project, through SPI, as a "Community Member".
So, are we all prepared to do the following:
"""
Responsibilities of All Members
Membership, irrespective of membership class, also carries the responsibility
of publicly promoting the OSA and ensuring the good standing of OSA within the
open source community and industry at-large. All classes of members are
expected to meet the following criteria:
• Express public support for the OSA and the OSA website. In support of
this, all members are required to do the following:
o Adding a "Member of OSA" mention to all press release boilerplate
o Featuring the OSA logo and a link to the OSA website on your home page
o Including the OSA member logo on printed collateral as appropriate
• Agree to publicly promote OSA’s awareness campaigns, interoperability
requirements, and any other OSA activities intended for the public.
• Abide by OSA’s code of ethics.
• Evangelize the OSA to new prospective members, including submitting
nominations to the Board from time to time for those prospective members they
feel meet these member criteria and are able and willing to add significant value
to the Mission of the OSA.
• Cross-promote and cross-link their respective communities’ web sites with that of
the OSA, and with other OSA members.
• Abide by all terms of membership, including those specific to their membership
class described above.
"""
I think agreeing to such terms is unrealistic.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
The main question about this to me is 'why?'
OSA sounds like a joint marketing thing, but I'm not sure what the objectives are. Do they align with Postgres? What will OSA do?
- Luke
Msg is shrt cuz m on ma treo
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:peter_e@gmx.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 04:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: josh@agliodbs.com
Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org; Joshua D. Drake; Shane Ambler
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Joining the OSA
Josh Berkus wrote:
> > My question remains: Who exactly would join and under what
> > membership class?
>
> The PostgreSQL Project, through SPI, as a "Community Member".
So, are we all prepared to do the following:
"""
Responsibilities of All Members
Membership, irrespective of membership class, also carries the responsibility
of publicly promoting the OSA and ensuring the good standing of OSA within the
open source community and industry at-large. All classes of members are
expected to meet the following criteria:
• Express public support for the OSA and the OSA website. In support of
this, all members are required to do the following:
o Adding a "Member of OSA" mention to all press release boilerplate
o Featuring the OSA logo and a link to the OSA website on your home page
o Including the OSA member logo on printed collateral as appropriate
• Agree to publicly promote OSA’s awareness campaigns, interoperability
requirements, and any other OSA activities intended for the public.
• Abide by OSA’s code of ethics.
• Evangelize the OSA to new prospective members, including submitting
nominations to the Board from time to time for those prospective members they
feel meet these member criteria and are able and willing to add significant value
to the Mission of the OSA.
• Cross-promote and cross-link their respective communities’ web sites with that of
the OSA, and with other OSA members.
• Abide by all terms of membership, including those specific to their membership
class described above.
"""
I think agreeing to such terms is unrealistic.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
That's a heck of a lot of publicity we'd give them including adding a logo to our otherwise logo-free homepage. What exactlydo we gain from this? Also, given all the various printed materials produced by different regional branches of the project, who will ensure everythinggets the logos etc? Regards, Dave > ------- Original Message ------- > From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> > To: josh@agliodbs.com > Sent: 27/03/07, 21:46:04 > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Joining the OSA > > Josh Berkus wrote: > > > My question remains: Who exactly would join and under what > > > membership class? > > > > The PostgreSQL Project, through SPI, as a "Community Member". > > So, are we all prepared to do the following: > > """ > Responsibilities of All Members > > Membership, irrespective of membership class, also carries the responsibility > of publicly promoting the OSA and ensuring the good standing of OSA within the > open source community and industry at-large. All classes of members are > expected to meet the following criteria: > > • Express public support for the OSA and the OSA website. In support of > this, all members are required to do the following: > o Adding a "Member of OSA" mention to all press release boilerplate > o Featuring the OSA logo and a link to the OSA website on your home page > o Including the OSA member logo on printed collateral as appropriate > • Agree to publicly promote OSA’s awareness campaigns, interoperability > requirements, and any other OSA activities intended for the public. > • Abide by OSA’s code of ethics. > • Evangelize the OSA to new prospective members, including submitting > nominations to the Board from time to time for those prospective members they > feel meet these member criteria and are able and willing to add significant value > to the Mission of the OSA. > • Cross-promote and cross-link their respective communities’ web sites with that of > the OSA, and with other OSA members. > • Abide by all terms of membership, including those specific to their membership > class described above. > """ > > I think agreeing to such terms is unrealistic. > > -- > Peter Eisentraut > http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings >
> • Evangelize the OSA to new prospective members, including submitting
> nominations to the Board from time to time for those prospective members they
> feel meet these member criteria and are able and willing to add significant value
> to the Mission of the OSA.
> • Cross-promote and cross-link their respective communities’ web sites with that of
> the OSA, and with other OSA members.
> • Abide by all terms of membership, including those specific to their membership
> class described above.
> """
>
> I think agreeing to such terms is unrealistic.
On reflection, with Peter's input, I have to agree with Peter. It is up
to us who we want to promote, it is not up to the OSA to demand that we
promote them.
Joshua D. Drake
--
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Dave Page wrote:
> That's a heck of a lot of publicity we'd give them including adding a logo to our otherwise logo-free homepage. What
exactlydo we gain from this?
>
> Also, given all the various printed materials produced by different regional branches of the project, who will ensure
everythinggets the logos etc?
>
> Regards, Dave
I think our official response should be:
You are requiring quite a bit from us for you. What are you going to do
for us in return?
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
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Peter, > Responsibilities of All Members > > Membership, irrespective of membership class, also carries the > responsibility of publicly promoting the OSA ... Hmmm, thanks for reading the fine print. I agree, it does sound unrealistic. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Andy, > Personally, folks, I don't think it's that big a deal to agree to join, > assuming the community generally supports the goals of the OSA. There's no > requirement for specific activities, and no one would get down on an > all-volunteer community for being relatively passive. All members (and > Friends) do what they can. Well, given the nature of our community it's pretty hard to speak for all members. And the OSA agreement, at least on paper, requires everyone in PostgreSQL to be enthusiastic about the OSA, which full consensus I can't imagine getting. I don't know if you were aware, but we were unable to get a consensus on putting up anti-EU-patent banners on the home page during the campaign period, also. And that's an idea a lot closer to the hearts of almost all of our community. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Personally, folks, I don't think it's that big a deal to agree to join, assuming the community generally supports the goals of the OSA. There's no requirement for specific activities, and no one would get down on an all-volunteer community for being relatively passive. All members (and Friends) do what they can. What we (and the OSA) get from the relationship is mostly associative in nature. My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is that joining is a positive thing. As Josh said in an earlier email, EnterpriseDB will cover most of the responsibilities that might otherwise fall to the community. In my mind, this is really a question other directional support. Having said that, if the community either (a) doesn't see this as aligned with its interests, or (b) has a policy against joining stuff like this, then so be it. Andy On 3/27/07 7:37 PM, "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > Peter, > >> Responsibilities of All Members >> >> Membership, irrespective of membership class, also carries the >> responsibility of publicly promoting the OSA ... > > Hmmm, thanks for reading the fine print. I agree, it does sound > unrealistic.
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Andy,
>
>> Personally, folks, I don't think it's that big a deal to agree to join,
>> assuming the community generally supports the goals of the OSA. There's no
>> requirement for specific activities, and no one would get down on an
>> all-volunteer community for being relatively passive. All members (and
>> Friends) do what they can.
>
> Well, given the nature of our community it's pretty hard to speak for all
> members. And the OSA agreement, at least on paper, requires everyone in
> PostgreSQL to be enthusiastic about the OSA, which full consensus I can't
> imagine getting.
Andy,
I believe the goals of the OSA are good ones. However there are some
pretty large, specific problems with the way OSA is designed.
• Express public support for the OSA and the OSA website. In support of
this, all members are required to do the following:
o Adding a "Member of OSA" mention to all press release
boilerplate
o Featuring the OSA logo and a link to the OSA website on
your home page
o Including the OSA member logo on printed collateral as
appropriate
Honestly, who is the OSA to demand this type of compensation? Which is
what it really is. The OSA is saying, "Hey, we are this good and because
of that you will pay us by providing free advertising."
I understand that EDB is offering to handle a lot of this, the problem
is it isn't EDB that is joining it is PostgreSQL via SPI.
I appreciate OSA willing to let us join. I appreciate what they are
trying to do in general. As a contributor, I could not support an action
that has PostgreSQL joining OSA.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> I don't know if you were aware, but we were unable to get a consensus on
> putting up anti-EU-patent banners on the home page during the campaign
> period, also. And that's an idea a lot closer to the hearts of almost all of
> our community.
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
jd@commandprompt.com ("Joshua D. Drake") writes:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> That's a heck of a lot of publicity we'd give them including adding a logo to our otherwise logo-free homepage. What
exactlydo we gain from this?
>> Also, given all the various printed materials produced by different
>> regional branches of the project, who will ensure everything gets
>> the logos etc?
>> Regards, Dave
>
> I think our official response should be:
>
> You are requiring quite a bit from us for you. What are you going to
> do for us in return?
Of course, contracts are commonly a two way street. I agree that
there seems to be rather a lot required of a "community" organization
member. Too much, I think, to commit to.
That doesn't mean that the "default" is what we would necessarily wind
up agreeing to. It would be worth asking nicely if some of those
requirements could be specifically relaxed/removed.
My local LUG ran into a similar sort of thing last year when
negotiating a booth at a conference; the rules required things we
could not legally provide, so we arranged to change the arrangements
to something more suitable.
It seems to me that it's worth asking before ruling anything out. The
OSA publicity requirements seem virtually unreasonable, and that may
well mean that if we "push back," they'll fall back to something that
we *would* be able to accept...
--
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "acm.org")
http://linuxfinances.info/info/emacs.html
Q: Are the SETQ expressions used only for numerics?
A: No, they can also be used with symbolics (Fig.18).
-- Ken Tracton, Programmer's Guide to Lisp, page 17.
Andy, > Having said that, if the community either (a) doesn't see this as > aligned with its interests, or (b) has a policy against joining stuff > like this, then so be it. It's more that I put forward joining the OSA beacuse based on my conversation with Barry, I thought it would give PostgreSQL a little visibility without really costing anything. However, the terms make it clear that you intend OSA as a serious trade lobby, which is something which is very hard for a diffuse community of sometimes conflicting interests like PostgreSQL to participate in. Some of our members/supporters won't agree with the OSA, and I can definitely anticipate the battle I'd get over even suggesting a banner on the home page. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco