Thread: Ammunition / store.pgsql.com
Fellow PostgreSQL advocates: For those that don't know me (most of you), let me introduce myself. My name is Anthony Chavez, a software/network engineer, originally from Salt Lake City, Utah (currently residing in Ogden). I have had the pleasure of being a PostgreSQL architect/administrator for almost 5 years now, though things in my life have been moving so frantically that I haven't had time to really contribute anything to the project, unfortunately. That's got to change. ;-) I'm writing to you today for two reasons. First of all, it has been brought to my attention that the "Community Advocate for MySQL" will be making an appearance (see below) at the local Linux User's Group. Though I don't want to come across as a troll, I would like to take the opportunity to do some advocacy of my own. I'd like to have a firm grasp on the differences between PostgreSQL and MySQL and what, exactly, makes PostgreSQL outshine. The main reason that I chose PostgreSQL as my focus all these years is a simple (and important) one: ACID compliance. But beyond that, I'm clueless. I don't have as much exposure to MySQL as I should. So any pointers and ammo that you can offer would certainly be appreciated. My second question---somewhat related to my first request---is this: what has happened with store.pgsql.com? I had a pretty decent thread going with the salespeople about the possibility of getting some PostgreSQL wear in larger sizes (XXL), but it suddenly ceased and I have yet to receive any responses to my e-mails. I also tried writing Marc Fournier, who responded initially, but didn't respond to any of my other e-mails. I am very eager to get some shirts, and this announcement reminded me that I needed to do something about it. Hope to hear from you soon! -- Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@jabber.anthonychavez.org -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- From: Doug Beattie <dbb@linkexplorer.com> To: sllug-members@sllug.org Subject: [sllug-members]: December meeting presentations Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:34:54 -0600 While at Linux World Expo. I was able to get with the Community Advocate of MySQL. He agreed to come present at our SLLUG meeting on December 17th. There are a number of topics he could present to us and has asked that we look over them, take a poll, then let him know which one he should present to us. Here are the topics: 1) MySQL New Features Workshop --- Get your hands dirty playing with some of the new features that have been added to MySQL versions 4, 4.1 and 5 2) The State of the Dolphin 2003: Deep Waters and Strange Seas --- Learn about the technical and business issues that MySQL AB has faced over the course of 2003. Find out more about how we partnered with SAP, why we chose to modify our licensing and what our major new feature look like. 3) The Devil and the Penguin: The Perils of Open/Free Licensing in a Proprietary World --- A fun talk on licensing and community in the Free Software/Open Source universe. 4) He could also give an abbreviated version of his OSCON 2003 tutorial http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4262 Please reply to me with your choice within the next week so I can let the presenter know and finalize what he will be giving us. Thanks, Doug -- Doug Beattie dbb@linkexplorer.com ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > My second question---somewhat related to my first request---is this: > what has happened with store.pgsql.com? I had a pretty decent thread > going with the salespeople about the possibility of getting some > PostgreSQL wear in larger sizes (XXL), but it suddenly ceased and I have > yet to receive any responses to my e-mails. I also tried writing Marc > Fournier, who responded initially, but didn't respond to any of my other > e-mails. Hi Anthony ... I do recall those discussions, but I thought the ball was in your court at that time ... http://store.pgsql.com (just checked) is up and running ... what email have you been sending to? I tend to monitor all the 'standard' @pgsql.com addresses (sales, admin, info, root, postmaster), etc ...
acc@anthonychavez.org writes: > The main reason that I chose PostgreSQL as my focus all these years > is a simple (and important) one: ACID compliance. But beyond that, > I'm clueless. I don't have as much exposure to MySQL as I should. > So any pointers and ammo that you can offer would certainly be > appreciated. I think the idea is to instead ask pointed questions. A good start is to ask about what is going on with the licensing changes, and whether this is really compatible with "free software." After all, the makers of Linux don't expect that you buy a commercial license to Linux in order to use it in commercial contexts. Nor do the makers of OpenOffice.org, GNOME, KDE, GTk, or GCC. Nor do the makers of FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD. What is it that makes MySQL AB so special that they should _expect_ to be paid $450/box for "commercial use" when all these other prominent free software projects don't make such demands? The other place to be pointed is in asking what's up with the SAP-DB "integration" effort. Some interesting things there: -> Some users of SAP-DB are very concerned about the licensing changes, as their business model involved using SAP-DB as licensing-fee-free software, just like Linux and other free software. -> Some SAP-DB users have considered developing their own ODBC/JDBC drivers and licensing them under the LGPL so that client software would not have to be licensed under the GPL. What do they think of that idea? -> In what way will SAP-DB be likely to replace any or all of the existing MySQL code base? My suspicion is that this integration project might easily be the death of the company, as it seems quite risky. The code base for SAP-DB is quite scary; lots of old legacy mainframe code in there. Changing the SAP-DB code to conform with what MySQL needs strikes me as being a potentially huge morass. And if they get into any sort of "morass," that'll eat the $19.5M of capital pretty quick. I just can't see what would get "integrated." Pulling in chunks of SAP-DB code to provide implementations of things that MySQL is missing seems just supremely unlikely. The only way for it to _actually_ work is for them to (say) replace the whole MySQL backend with SAP-DB. Of course, if they do _that_, it begs the question of why. Why, if MySQL AB's engine is good, would MySQL AB want to throw away their own engine in favor of someone else's? I'm quite honestly curious as to what the "endgame" is supposed to be with MySQL+SAP-DB. All the ones I can imagine seem strange. I'm intentionally suggesting that you ask questions, as opposed to "Here's why PostgreSQL is better!" arguments. It's likely NOT in good taste to try to steal thunder by doing direct PG advocacy. I have been at LUG meetings where someone (who shall remain nameless, since his name resembles that of a regular participant here, and the confusion would just cause grief, especially since that participant signs my expense and vacation forms :-)) heckled assorted speakers who spoke on Java and Python, because he's immensely excited about some of the upcoming Perl 6 technology. The heckler irritated practically everyone by virtually trying to hijack the talk. Don't be him :-). -- "cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com" http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/advocacy.html Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue.
To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source development project, just a company that distributes code via open source. They will never be able to keep up with us. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Browne wrote: > acc@anthonychavez.org writes: > > The main reason that I chose PostgreSQL as my focus all these years > > is a simple (and important) one: ACID compliance. But beyond that, > > I'm clueless. I don't have as much exposure to MySQL as I should. > > So any pointers and ammo that you can offer would certainly be > > appreciated. > > I think the idea is to instead ask pointed questions. > > A good start is to ask about what is going on with the licensing > changes, and whether this is really compatible with "free software." > > After all, the makers of Linux don't expect that you buy a commercial > license to Linux in order to use it in commercial contexts. Nor do > the makers of OpenOffice.org, GNOME, KDE, GTk, or GCC. Nor do the > makers of FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD. > > What is it that makes MySQL AB so special that they should _expect_ to > be paid $450/box for "commercial use" when all these other prominent > free software projects don't make such demands? > > The other place to be pointed is in asking what's up with the SAP-DB > "integration" effort. Some interesting things there: > > -> Some users of SAP-DB are very concerned about the licensing > changes, as their business model involved using SAP-DB as > licensing-fee-free software, just like Linux and other free > software. > > -> Some SAP-DB users have considered developing their own ODBC/JDBC > drivers and licensing them under the LGPL so that client software > would not have to be licensed under the GPL. What do they think > of that idea? > > -> In what way will SAP-DB be likely to replace any or all of the > existing MySQL code base? > > My suspicion is that this integration project might easily be the > death of the company, as it seems quite risky. The code base for > SAP-DB is quite scary; lots of old legacy mainframe code in there. > Changing the SAP-DB code to conform with what MySQL needs strikes me > as being a potentially huge morass. And if they get into any sort of > "morass," that'll eat the $19.5M of capital pretty quick. > > I just can't see what would get "integrated." Pulling in chunks of > SAP-DB code to provide implementations of things that MySQL is missing > seems just supremely unlikely. The only way for it to _actually_ work > is for them to (say) replace the whole MySQL backend with SAP-DB. > > Of course, if they do _that_, it begs the question of why. Why, if > MySQL AB's engine is good, would MySQL AB want to throw away their own > engine in favor of someone else's? > > I'm quite honestly curious as to what the "endgame" is supposed to be > with MySQL+SAP-DB. All the ones I can imagine seem strange. > > I'm intentionally suggesting that you ask questions, as opposed to > "Here's why PostgreSQL is better!" arguments. It's likely NOT in good > taste to try to steal thunder by doing direct PG advocacy. > > I have been at LUG meetings where someone (who shall remain nameless, > since his name resembles that of a regular participant here, and the > confusion would just cause grief, especially since that participant > signs my expense and vacation forms :-)) heckled assorted speakers who > spoke on Java and Python, because he's immensely excited about some of > the upcoming Perl 6 technology. The heckler irritated practically > everyone by virtually trying to hijack the talk. Don't be him :-). > -- > "cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com" > http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/advocacy.html > Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue. > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." There lies a good question... How many "open source" developers are _actually_ working on MySQL? If Scott McNealy is right, then who are those scads of people committing code to the tree? :-) -- "cbbrowne","@","acm.org" http://cbbrowne.com/info/linux.html "There are no threads in a.b.p.erotica, so there's no gain in using a threaded news reader." -- (Unknown source)
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:40:55 -0300 (ADT) The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@postgresql.org> wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > >> My second question---somewhat related to my first request---is this: >> what has happened with store.pgsql.com? I had a pretty decent thread >> going with the salespeople about the possibility of getting some >> PostgreSQL wear in larger sizes (XXL), but it suddenly ceased and I have >> yet to receive any responses to my e-mails. I also tried writing Marc >> Fournier, who responded initially, but didn't respond to any of my other >> e-mails. > > Hi Anthony ... > > I do recall those discussions, but I thought the ball was in your court > at that time ... http://store.pgsql.com (just checked) is up and running > ... what email have you been sending to? I tend to monitor all the > 'standard' @pgsql.com addresses (sales, admin, info, root, postmaster), > etc ... IIRC, I was sending to sales@ and info@. I also tried to get in touch with someone named Andrea under Marc's advice, but never heard from her. Like I said, however, the problem wasn't that the store wasn't up. I was interested to know if the shirts are available in size XXL. I also wanted to know if the cost of shipping was accurate. $19 seemed a bit steep considering that I had ordered other things from Canada that cost a bit less. Thanks! -- Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@jabber.anthonychavez.org <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > I'm writing to you today for two reasons. First of all, it has been > brought to my attention that the "Community Advocate for MySQL" will be > making an appearance (see below) at the local Linux User's Group. > Though I don't want to come across as a troll, I would like to take the > opportunity to do some advocacy of my own. I'd like to have a firm > grasp on the differences between PostgreSQL and MySQL and what, exactly, > makes PostgreSQL outshine. I know Zak and have been to several conferences with him -- as have Bruce, Tom, Joe Conway, etc. He is very experienced and knows what he is talking about. As such, the only way to score points is: a) Look at the open source model of Postgres vs. MySQL. MySQL is in house, Postgres is community. b) Go and install MySQL yourself and see what it lacks: SQL99 compliance, stability, high concurrency, fanatic concern about data integrity, a large number of polished features that you find in Postgres, etc. These are important. c) Give a follow up talk at your next meet on PostgreSQL (this is the most important): MySQL has now created a market of interested users -- the best thing you can do is give an informed talk about the alternatives. Gavin
Yes, Zak is a nice guy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Sherry wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > > > I'm writing to you today for two reasons. First of all, it has been > > brought to my attention that the "Community Advocate for MySQL" will be > > making an appearance (see below) at the local Linux User's Group. > > Though I don't want to come across as a troll, I would like to take the > > opportunity to do some advocacy of my own. I'd like to have a firm > > grasp on the differences between PostgreSQL and MySQL and what, exactly, > > makes PostgreSQL outshine. > > I know Zak and have been to several conferences with him -- as have Bruce, > Tom, Joe Conway, etc. He is very experienced and knows what he is > talking about. As such, the only way to score points is: a) Look at the > open source model of Postgres vs. MySQL. MySQL is in house, Postgres is > community. b) Go and install MySQL yourself and see what it lacks: SQL99 > compliance, stability, high concurrency, fanatic concern about data > integrity, a large number of polished features that you find in > Postgres, etc. These are important. c) Give a follow up talk at your next > meet on PostgreSQL (this is the most important): MySQL has now created a > market of interested users -- the best thing you can do is give an > informed talk about the alternatives. > > Gavin > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Christopher Browne wrote: > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. > > I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > There lies a good question... > > How many "open source" developers are _actually_ working on MySQL? > > If Scott McNealy is right, then who are those scads of people > committing code to the tree? :-) Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have others contributing from outside. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Christopher Browne wrote: > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. > > I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." I had a chat with some of the Google guys when I went to LinuxWorld in New York 2 years back ... unless something has changed dramatically, Google has their own backend engine, and it isn't/wasn't MySQL ... and has Yahoo been using Google for awhile now? Can anyone confirm whether Google is, in fact, using MySQL?
taken off list ... sicne it really isn't advocacy related :) On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:40:55 -0300 (ADT) The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@postgresql.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 acc@anthonychavez.org wrote: > > > >> My second question---somewhat related to my first request---is this: > >> what has happened with store.pgsql.com? I had a pretty decent thread > >> going with the salespeople about the possibility of getting some > >> PostgreSQL wear in larger sizes (XXL), but it suddenly ceased and I have > >> yet to receive any responses to my e-mails. I also tried writing Marc > >> Fournier, who responded initially, but didn't respond to any of my other > >> e-mails. > > > > Hi Anthony ... > > > > I do recall those discussions, but I thought the ball was in your court > > at that time ... http://store.pgsql.com (just checked) is up and running > > ... what email have you been sending to? I tend to monitor all the > > 'standard' @pgsql.com addresses (sales, admin, info, root, postmaster), > > etc ... > > IIRC, I was sending to sales@ and info@. I also tried to get in touch > with someone named Andrea under Marc's advice, but never heard from > her. > > Like I said, however, the problem wasn't that the store wasn't up. I > was interested to know if the shirts are available in size XXL. I also > wanted to know if the cost of shipping was accurate. $19 seemed a bit > steep considering that I had ordered other things from Canada that cost > a bit less. > > Thanks! > > -- > Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ > mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@jabber.anthonychavez.org > <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign> > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > > > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > > > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > > > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. > > > > I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: > > > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html > > > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > > > There lies a good question... > > > > How many "open source" developers are _actually_ working on MySQL? > > > > If Scott McNealy is right, then who are those scads of people > > committing code to the tree? :-) > > Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have > others contributing from outside. > I spoke to Zak and Georg Richter about this at a conference. They said they receive some contributions, but that MySQL AB requires the contributor to sign over copyright to MySQL AB. Gavin
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Christopher Browne wrote: > > > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > > > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > > > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > > > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. > > > > I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: > > > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html > > > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > I had a chat with some of the Google guys when I went to LinuxWorld in New > York 2 years back ... unless something has changed dramatically, Google > has their own backend engine, and it isn't/wasn't MySQL ... and has Yahoo > been using Google for awhile now? Google may use it else where, but the Google search is not powered by it, as far as I can tell from discussions with Google guys at conferences this year. Yahoo use it extensively for content for Web sites, etc. But they also used Oracle extensively, last I knew. The search itself is outsourced to another company (no longer Google) last time I heard. Thanks, Gavin
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Gavin Sherry wrote:
> > Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have
> > others contributing from outside.
> >
>
> I spoke to Zak and Georg Richter about this at a conference. They said
> they receive some contributions, but that MySQL AB requires the
> contributor to sign over copyright to MySQL AB.
But, I thought it was GPLd?
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
scrappy@postgresql.org (The Hermit Hacker) writes: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Gavin Sherry wrote: >> > Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have >> > others contributing from outside. >> >> I spoke to Zak and Georg Richter about this at a conference. They >> said they receive some contributions, but that MySQL AB requires >> the contributor to sign over copyright to MySQL AB. > > But, I thought it was GPLd? MySQL (the software) is _available under the GPL_. But MySQL AB, the company, is rather jealous to guard their intellectual property, which they release under multiple licenses only one of which is the GPL. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html ">in your opinion which is the best programming tools ? The human brain and a keyboard." -- Nathan Wagner
scrappy@postgresql.org (The Hermit Hacker) writes: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Christopher Browne wrote: > >> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: >> > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source >> > development project, just a company that distributes code via open >> > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. >> >> I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: >> >> http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html >> >> "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's >> free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole >> open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google >> can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a >> huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > I had a chat with some of the Google guys when I went to LinuxWorld in New > York 2 years back ... unless something has changed dramatically, Google > has their own backend engine, and it isn't/wasn't MySQL ... and has Yahoo > been using Google for awhile now? > > Can anyone confirm whether Google is, in fact, using MySQL? I'm sure they do, somewhere. The staunchest PostgreSQL shop might have a MySQL instance kicking around somewhere on which to run Bugzilla, because the port of it which runs on PostgreSQL is not quite ready for the light of day, whilst I'll bet there are Linux and/or BSD distributions that include Bugzilla packaged to run atop MySQL. It would be totally unremarkable for the Google guys to have a copy of Bugzilla or some other such application running atop MySQL. Supposing their accounting software runs on (Faircom SQL| Oracle| Sybase| Something Else), they might well have a few licenses of those databases kicking around somewhere. But from what I hear, the "text database" software that's the root of their business is HIGHLY custom stuff that they wrote themselves. Every software vendor out there will try to claim Major Companies as being customers. American Airlines gets cited heavily for this by every small software shop out there, which merely implies two things: 1. They are a company with ~100K employees, some of whom buy software and tell the vendor "I work for AMR." 2. Down in the basement, there are probably crates of disused copies of all sorts of stuff. They nonetheless use DB/2, Teradata, and Oracle for a whole lot of their systems. -- let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN X AGAINST HTML MAIL / \
MySQL makes money by selling non-GPL licenses to people who want non-GPL versions of MySQL. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Browne wrote: > scrappy@postgresql.org (The Hermit Hacker) writes: > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Gavin Sherry wrote: > >> > Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have > >> > others contributing from outside. > >> > >> I spoke to Zak and Georg Richter about this at a conference. They > >> said they receive some contributions, but that MySQL AB requires > >> the contributor to sign over copyright to MySQL AB. > > > > But, I thought it was GPLd? > > MySQL (the software) is _available under the GPL_. > > But MySQL AB, the company, is rather jealous to guard their > intellectual property, which they release under multiple licenses only > one of which is the GPL. > -- > let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; > http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html > ">in your opinion which is the best programming tools ? > The human brain and a keyboard." -- Nathan Wagner > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Guys, > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." BTW, I was witness to some of the inside story behind Sun's selection of MySQL. They didn't want to adopt PostgreSQL because it is "too chaotic" and "nobody is responsible", i.e. there's no corporation they can strike a deal with. Or, to put it another way: Sun is a company which keeps its OSS projects close to its chest, and makes you sign over your code to Sun if you want to contribute. Is is any surprise they like MySQL? Fortunately, the OpenOffice.org development team remains PostgreSQL-friendly. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Yes, Sun has a clear "we want to control this" relationship with open source software, and I mentioned it when I was up at MIT/Harvard and there was a round-table discussion with a Sun guy there. Yes, they are involved with open office, but their general approach is more proprietary. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Berkus wrote: > Guys, > > > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > > > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > > > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > > > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > > > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > BTW, I was witness to some of the inside story behind Sun's selection of > MySQL. They didn't want to adopt PostgreSQL because it is "too chaotic" and > "nobody is responsible", i.e. there's no corporation they can strike a deal > with. > > Or, to put it another way: Sun is a company which keeps its OSS projects > close to its chest, and makes you sign over your code to Sun if you want to > contribute. Is is any surprise they like MySQL? > > Fortunately, the OpenOffice.org development team remains PostgreSQL-friendly. > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
God, their licensing sounds more horrific then the old Oracle licensing I've had described to me :( On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > MySQL makes money by selling non-GPL licenses to people who want non-GPL > versions of MySQL. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christopher Browne wrote: > > scrappy@postgresql.org (The Hermit Hacker) writes: > > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Gavin Sherry wrote: > > >> > Zero. MySQL has full license to the source code, so they can't have > > >> > others contributing from outside. > > >> > > >> I spoke to Zak and Georg Richter about this at a conference. They > > >> said they receive some contributions, but that MySQL AB requires > > >> the contributor to sign over copyright to MySQL AB. > > > > > > But, I thought it was GPLd? > > > > MySQL (the software) is _available under the GPL_. > > > > But MySQL AB, the company, is rather jealous to guard their > > intellectual property, which they release under multiple licenses only > > one of which is the GPL. > > -- > > let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; > > http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html > > ">in your opinion which is the best programming tools ? > > The human brain and a keyboard." -- Nathan Wagner > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > > > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road > + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 21:22, Gavin Sherry wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Christopher Browne wrote: > > > > > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) writes: > > > > To me, the big MySQL issue is that it isn't an open source > > > > development project, just a company that distributes code via open > > > > source. They will never be able to keep up with us. > > > > > > I found the quote from Scott McNealy most ironic: > > > ironic? it's just wrong. but scott knows what he's doing by advocating open source software that wont cut into it's meat n potatoes buisness of partnering with oracle. (at some point he'll realize oracle is moving from slowlaris to linux, and maybe he'll one up them by bundling postgresql...) > > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,78443,00.html > > > > > > "If you want to save...money, make the default database MySQL. It's > > > free, it's bundled [with Sun's Solaris software], you've got the whole > > > open-source community working on making it better. If Yahoo and Google > > > can run their entire operations on MySQL, then certainly there's a > > > huge chunk of your operations that could run on it as well." > > > > I had a chat with some of the Google guys when I went to LinuxWorld in New > > York 2 years back ... unless something has changed dramatically, Google > > has their own backend engine, and it isn't/wasn't MySQL ... and has Yahoo > > been using Google for awhile now? > > Google may use it else where, but the Google search is not powered by it, > as far as I can tell from discussions with Google guys at conferences this > year. Thats correct. This article gives a little insight into what they are doing: http://www.internetweek.com/story/INW20010427S0010 Yahoo use it extensively for content for Web sites, etc.But they > also used Oracle extensively, last I knew. Last I checked the only place that mysql is used was in the yahoo finance section, and it is used exclusively to power read only content. They do have plans to use it in this capacity in other areas, but for their heavy read/write stuff the use oracle. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 09:28:31AM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> Last I checked the only place that mysql is used was in the yahoo
> finance section, and it is used exclusively to power read only content.
> They do have plans to use it in this capacity in other areas, but for
> their heavy read/write stuff the use oracle.
According to a fellow I met from Yahoo who was discussing this, they
use neither MySQL nor Oracle for substantial bits of their system,
but instead a proprietarty, we-wrote-it-ourselves database system
that has qualities just right for their use patterns.
A
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----
Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info> M2P 2A8
+1 416 646 3304 x110
andrew@libertyrms.info (Andrew Sullivan) writes:
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 09:28:31AM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
>> Last I checked the only place that mysql is used was in the yahoo
>> finance section, and it is used exclusively to power read only content.
>> They do have plans to use it in this capacity in other areas, but for
>> their heavy read/write stuff the use oracle.
>
> According to a fellow I met from Yahoo who was discussing this, they
> use neither MySQL nor Oracle for substantial bits of their system,
> but instead a proprietarty, we-wrote-it-ourselves database system
> that has qualities just right for their use patterns.
I'll still bet that Yahoo has a few copies of MySQL kicking around
somewhere, whether because:
a) Someone is running Bugzilla;
b) Someone is prototyping some web apps and is using it for that;
c) There's some "departmental" application kicking around that uses
it.
The most frivolous customer list I think I have ever seen is for
"Above and Beyond":
<http://www.1soft.com/customers.html>
They list numerous enormous companies as customers, which almost
certainly merely indicates that someone at each of those companies at
some point registered a copy of A&B. (Which is one of the niftier
"task scheduling" calendar systems around. Too bad it's just for
Windows, although I got it running quite nicely atop WINE back in the
late '90s...)
The fact that a company is a customer doesn't mean that the product is
necessarily a vital product to the company...
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