Thread: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.
It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.
My `Browser Command` is:
"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "%URL%"
In other words, identical to v4.24 and every version before that. Yet it now suddenly opens in the default profile, apparently ignoring my command entirely. I also tried restarting the entire machine to make sure it wasn't some weird temporary glitch.
If I run this in Windows, it opens the right profile, so it's not my browser at fault:
"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "about:config"
Is there no quality assurance for this program? I have never encountered any software in my life which breaks as frequently as this... which says a lot.
If I go to the notification icon of pgAdmin, right click it and click "New pgAdmin window", it opens in the right profile, as it's supposed to. So clearly it's *able* to do it, somehow, but only in this weird way. It would mean many clicks each time I want to open pgAdmin and doesn't address the actual problem.
In desperation, I even tried to make a completely new Pale Moon shortcut:
"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "http://127.0.0.1:49707/browser/"
But then it just says:
> Unauthorized
> The server could not verify that you are authorized to access the URL requested. You either supplied the wrong credentials (e.g. a bad password), or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.
I have no idea how this is even technically possible, but v4.25 clearly has broken *something*.
If this sounds "rude", it's because I feel horribly insulted as a user when this mission-critical software (because it *is* mission-critical) keeps breaking in weird ways. I've plowed down countless hours of my life just working around bugs and "features" added to pgAdmin 4. I feel like I'm *fighting against* it rather than using a great tool. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to make my own database manager, since pgAdmin 4 is not just very slow and glitchy, but downright *broken* now.
And how do I turn off that nag screen which constantly keeps pestering me to "upgrade" to the new version, which is very likely to break everything? I want to disable that message so I never have to see it and never have to get another broken pgAdmin version on my system ever again. I would go through this Hell at the most once a year or something.
It feels like I'm one some kind of "bleeding edge" branch rather than the stable/production one. Please consider testing your software before releasing it.
I truly don't understand how you can keep doing this to your users. Do you hate us? There are some really good ideas and neat features inside this program, but it's hidden behind all these layers of madness which ruins the entire experience and cripples the user when they need it the most.
I could very well never even have found the work-around. Most users probably would not have tried half of what I've tried to get this to work.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Stephen Knox
Date:
Gosh, you're right, this does sound very rude.
I'm not sure where to start with this and I'm a user, not a developer of the software, so shouldn't be taking this too personally.
You seem to have misread the licence of the software: https://github.com/postgres/pgadmin4/blob/master/LICENSE.
As this is open source software, no one is guaranteeing you anything (why should they, you didn't pay for it, right?). What they are guaranteeing you is that the code is open for you to view and change if you so desire (given certain conditions). There is a likelihood that other people will come and fix and bugs, create new features, but that is not a given, nor should it be.
If it is really "mission-critical software" then sitting around ranting in a mailing list is not going to help you. If you are experiencing these issues (personally I have had very few issues with the software, so can't help you there). You need to do one of:
- Ask politely if anyone can help, file bugs properly on the bug tracker by stating your system environment, steps to reproduce etc. Note, this email does not meet the politeness criterion
- Obtain the skills yourself to fix your own issues, and ideally contribute those back to the project
- Pay someone as a one off to fix the bugs you are experiencing or an ongoing maintenance-type contract
I'm afraid your message just comes off as entitled, uninformed, and yes, rude.
Stephen Knox
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Rob Richardson
Date:
My company relies on PostgreSQL and pgAdmin, as do thousands of other companies, I'm sure. Since most of our customers have been with us for a long time and have stable installations, we have not been upgrading them to the latest PostgreSQL version, and therefore, most of my experience has been with pgAdmin III. Nonetheless, I have been less than impressed with it. It freezes or disables commands at random times. Not enough to prevent me from working, but enough to make me think that the development process has not been rigorous enough.
Eventually, I am sure that we will be migrating to modern versions of PostgreSQL and therefore to pgAdmin 4. I've glanced at it. My initial, uneducated impression is that changes were made from pgAdmin III for little reason other than change itself. I would have much preferred to see it keep the same UI rather than moving to a browser.
But because PostgreSQL is such a successful database platform, used by thousands upon thousands of mission-critical applications, it is incumbent on the developer community to ensure that its administration tool works well, and that upgrades do not break existing features. If, as you say, we should not count on the developers of pgAdmin 4 to ensure that upgrades do not break existing features, then please suggest a professionally developed, professionally supported alternative that we can pay for and get the quality assurance that we, as professional developers and users, should expect.
Rob Richardson
On Friday, August 21, 2020, 06:51:29 AM EDT, Stephen Knox <stephenknox73@gmail.com> wrote:
Gosh, you're right, this does sound very rude.
I'm not sure where to start with this and I'm a user, not a developer of the software, so shouldn't be taking this too personally.
You seem to have misread the licence of the software: https://github.com/postgres/pgadmin4/blob/master/LICENSE.
As this is open source software, no one is guaranteeing you anything (why should they, you didn't pay for it, right?). What they are guaranteeing you is that the code is open for you to view and change if you so desire (given certain conditions). There is a likelihood that other people will come and fix and bugs, create new features, but that is not a given, nor should it be.
If it is really "mission-critical software" then sitting around ranting in a mailing list is not going to help you. If you are experiencing these issues (personally I have had very few issues with the software, so can't help you there). You need to do one of:
- Ask politely if anyone can help, file bugs properly on the bug tracker by stating your system environment, steps to reproduce etc. Note, this email does not meet the politeness criterion
- Obtain the skills yourself to fix your own issues, and ideally contribute those back to the project
- Pay someone as a one off to fix the bugs you are experiencing or an ongoing maintenance-type contract
I'm afraid your message just comes off as entitled, uninformed, and yes, rude.
Stephen Knox
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Anthony DeBarros
Date:
Hello.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.
Snip.
Your experience is vastly different than mine. I use pgadmin 4 every day. It has only improved by leaps and bounds since initial release. If I see an opportunity for improvement, I submit a feature request in Redmine. More often than not, my request eventually gets acted on or, if not, declined with a good reason.
I lurk here daily because it's fun watching a well-run dev team work in predictable, rapid cycles. Bugs get handled.
Your use is an edge case for a browser that has barely any market share. Fine if you want to run life that way, but don't expect smooth sailing.
Your situation is an edge case,
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Khushboo Vashi
Date:
Hi,
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.My `Browser Command` is:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "%URL%"In other words, identical to v4.24 and every version before that. Yet it now suddenly opens in the default profile, apparently ignoring my command entirely. I also tried restarting the entire machine to make sure it wasn't some weird temporary glitch.If I run this in Windows, it opens the right profile, so it's not my browser at fault:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "about:config"
I have tested pgAdmin 4 v4.25 on MacOS with Firefox browser and it is working fine.
My command: "/Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/firefox" "%URL%" -p testprofile
Is there no quality assurance for this program? I have never encountered any software in my life which breaks as frequently as this... which says a lot.If I go to the notification icon of pgAdmin, right click it and click "New pgAdmin window", it opens in the right profile, as it's supposed to. So clearly it's *able* to do it, somehow, but only in this weird way. It would mean many clicks each time I want to open pgAdmin and doesn't address the actual problem.In desperation, I even tried to make a completely new Pale Moon shortcut:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "http://127.0.0.1:49707/browser/"But then it just says:> Unauthorized> The server could not verify that you are authorized to access the URL requested. You either supplied the wrong credentials (e.g. a bad password), or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.I have no idea how this is even technically possible, but v4.25 clearly has broken *something*.If this sounds "rude", it's because I feel horribly insulted as a user when this mission-critical software (because it *is* mission-critical) keeps breaking in weird ways. I've plowed down countless hours of my life just working around bugs and "features" added to pgAdmin 4. I feel like I'm *fighting against* it rather than using a great tool. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to make my own database manager, since pgAdmin 4 is not just very slow and glitchy, but downright *broken* now.And how do I turn off that nag screen which constantly keeps pestering me to "upgrade" to the new version, which is very likely to break everything? I want to disable that message so I never have to see it and never have to get another broken pgAdmin version on my system ever again. I would go through this Hell at the most once a year or something.
To disable the upgrade notification set UPGRADE_CHECK_ENABLED = False. Please refer https://www.pgadmin.org/docs/pgadmin4/4.25/config_py.html to overide the default settings.
Also, you can log the bug/feature request @ https://redmine.postgresql.org/projects/pgadmin4
Thanks,
Khushboo
It feels like I'm one some kind of "bleeding edge" branch rather than the stable/production one. Please consider testing your software before releasing it.I truly don't understand how you can keep doing this to your users. Do you hate us? There are some really good ideas and neat features inside this program, but it's hidden behind all these layers of madness which ruins the entire experience and cripples the user when they need it the most.I could very well never even have found the work-around. Most users probably would not have tried half of what I've tried to get this to work.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Stephen Knox
Date:
https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/
I don't think any software developer sets out for change for change's sake. If I recall the reasons for the change to a web based system were the larger number of developers who can code in javascript (which is hardly debatable).
It's incumbent upon the person using any software to ensure that they can either maintain it themselves, are happy with the general direction and for others to lead, or can find someone and afford to pay them to maintain their interests on their behalf. In this way open source is no different from commercial software, the difference with FOSS is that the first two are options and you are not reliant on any one entity. Leaving aside any TCO issues. Or you can fork the project and take it in a complety different direction if you're not happy with the direction. The fact that you haven't suggests you don't care enough to do so.
On Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 13:50 Rob Richardson, <interrobang@yahoo.com>
please suggest a professionally developed, professionally supported alternative that we can pay for and get the quality assurance that we, as professional developers and users, should expect.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Jack Royal-Gordon
Date:
Hi Bob,
pgAdmin III is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT piece of software than pgAdmin 4. I used III for a number of years. I was never thrilled with it, but it did what I needed for me. For example, if I lost my connection to the server either voluntarily or because I closed my laptop, I could not allow the program to reconnect — I had to terminate the command I was trying, close the window and reopen it, else the program would bomb. pgAdmin IV at least does recover quite well from this situation.
pgAdmin 4 is a re-implementation of much of the functionality of pgAdmin III, but in a browser environment rather than a standalone program. It runs a server or daemon in the background on your machine to maintain a connection to the database and feed information to your browser window. Some people like the browser-based implementation, others do not. But it would be a mistake to judge pgAdmin 4 by your experience with pgAdmin III.
Jack
On Aug 21, 2020, at 5:50 AM, Rob Richardson <interrobang@yahoo.com> wrote:My company relies on PostgreSQL and pgAdmin, as do thousands of other companies, I'm sure. Since most of our customers have been with us for a long time and have stable installations, we have not been upgrading them to the latest PostgreSQL version, and therefore, most of my experience has been with pgAdmin III. Nonetheless, I have been less than impressed with it. It freezes or disables commands at random times. Not enough to prevent me from working, but enough to make me think that the development process has not been rigorous enough.Eventually, I am sure that we will be migrating to modern versions of PostgreSQL and therefore to pgAdmin 4. I've glanced at it. My initial, uneducated impression is that changes were made from pgAdmin III for little reason other than change itself. I would have much preferred to see it keep the same UI rather than moving to a browser.But because PostgreSQL is such a successful database platform, used by thousands upon thousands of mission-critical applications, it is incumbent on the developer community to ensure that its administration tool works well, and that upgrades do not break existing features. If, as you say, we should not count on the developers of pgAdmin 4 to ensure that upgrades do not break existing features, then please suggest a professionally developed, professionally supported alternative that we can pay for and get the quality assurance that we, as professional developers and users, should expect.Rob RichardsonOn Friday, August 21, 2020, 06:51:29 AM EDT, Stephen Knox <stephenknox73@gmail.com> wrote:Gosh, you're right, this does sound very rude.I'm not sure where to start with this and I'm a user, not a developer of the software, so shouldn't be taking this too personally.You seem to have misread the licence of the software: https://github.com/postgres/pgadmin4/blob/master/LICENSE.As this is open source software, no one is guaranteeing you anything (why should they, you didn't pay for it, right?). What they are guaranteeing you is that the code is open for you to view and change if you so desire (given certain conditions). There is a likelihood that other people will come and fix and bugs, create new features, but that is not a given, nor should it be.If it is really "mission-critical software" then sitting around ranting in a mailing list is not going to help you. If you are experiencing these issues (personally I have had very few issues with the software, so can't help you there). You need to do one of:- Ask politely if anyone can help, file bugs properly on the bug tracker by stating your system environment, steps to reproduce etc. Note, this email does not meet the politeness criterion- Obtain the skills yourself to fix your own issues, and ideally contribute those back to the project- Pay someone as a one off to fix the bugs you are experiencing or an ongoing maintenance-type contractI'm afraid your message just comes off as entitled, uninformed, and yes, rude.Stephen KnoxOn Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Akshay Joshi
Date:
Hello
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.
Upgrade to the latest version may be annoying to you, but it is good for others in the small world as they would like to see new features or bug fixes. So it's just an informative message from pgAdmin4 that a new version is available for use. Definitely it's *not mandatory* to download and install it. Users can easily disable the upgrade notification by setting UPGRADE_CHECK_ENABLED = False.
It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.My `Browser Command` is:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "%URL%"In other words, identical to v4.24 and every version before that. Yet it now suddenly opens in the default profile, apparently ignoring my command entirely. I also tried restarting the entire machine to make sure it wasn't some weird temporary glitch.If I run this in Windows, it opens the right profile, so it's not my browser at fault:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "about:config"
Yes, I have verified it on Windows Server 2016 and it seems a weird bug to me because the same behavior I have verified on OSX and it is not reproducible. The codebase is same for all the platforms. We are using the QSettings class to read the settings configured by the user "QString cmd = settings.value("BrowserCommand").toString();" On Windows it reads the registry and on OSX it reads the .plist file. Below is the screenshot of my windows registry
pgAdmin4 reads the same registry in both the scenarios (At the time of launch and right-click on the tray icon and then click on "New pgAdmin window"). Sometimes it happens when some other library or framework behaves differently, it doesn't mean that pgAdmin4 breaks frequently and having no quality assurance.
Anyways we will investigate the above scenario and try to fix it.
Is there no quality assurance for this program? I have never encountered any software in my life which breaks as frequently as this... which says a lot.If I go to the notification icon of pgAdmin, right click it and click "New pgAdmin window", it opens in the right profile, as it's supposed to. So clearly it's *able* to do it, somehow, but only in this weird way. It would mean many clicks each time I want to open pgAdmin and doesn't address the actual problem.In desperation, I even tried to make a completely new Pale Moon shortcut:"C:\Program Files\Pale Moon\palemoon.exe" -p "pgAdmin" --no-remote "http://127.0.0.1:49707/browser/"But then it just says:> Unauthorized> The server could not verify that you are authorized to access the URL requested. You either supplied the wrong credentials (e.g. a bad password), or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.I have no idea how this is even technically possible, but v4.25 clearly has broken *something*.If this sounds "rude", it's because I feel horribly insulted as a user when this mission-critical software (because it *is* mission-critical) keeps breaking in weird ways. I've plowed down countless hours of my life just working around bugs and "features" added to pgAdmin 4. I feel like I'm *fighting against* it rather than using a great tool. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to make my own database manager, since pgAdmin 4 is not just very slow and glitchy, but downright *broken* now.
Yes, this sounds rude, for the developer who works a lot to make this software better even though it is open-source. In my opinion, very fewer people are *fighting against* it and most of the people are using it. Adding new features and fixing bugs is a part of the product development life cycle. pgAdmin4 developers working hard to provide the features that users want and we have a one-month release cycle so that users will get something(maybe new feature or bug fixes) after every month.
Patches are welcome, we will be happy to review/commit those.
And how do I turn off that nag screen which constantly keeps pestering me to "upgrade" to the new version, which is very likely to break everything? I want to disable that message so I never have to see it and never have to get another broken pgAdmin version on my system ever again. I would go through this Hell at the most once a year or something.It feels like I'm one some kind of "bleeding edge" branch rather than the stable/production one. Please consider testing your software before releasing it.
We have already taken care of the testing of the software before releasing it. I don't think any software gets released without testing.
I truly don't understand how you can keep doing this to your users. Do you hate us? There are some really good ideas and neat features inside this program, but it's hidden behind all these layers of madness which ruins the entire experience and cripples the user when they need it the most.
We try our best to keep users happy, there is no room to hate anybody in this small world :)
I could very well never even have found the work-around. Most users probably would not have tried half of what I've tried to get this to work.
--
Thanks & Regards
Akshay Joshi
pgAdmin Hacker | Sr. Software Architect
EDB PostgresMobile: +91 976-788-8246
Attachment
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
cgerard999@gmail.com
Date:
Hi Rob,
I have the same bad experience as you with PgAdmin4. We are also using pgAdmin3 so far and I was very excited to test the new version.
Alas, I have so many issues that, if I had tested the 2 versions separately, I would have said that the old one is v4.
Among the issues I got, keyboard shortcuts don’t work, I am not allowed to cancel my own queries, object refresh is damn slow, I get unexpected errors when visualizing a table, I can’t use Firefox since the Key is always changing for some reason ...
It’s amazing to see these discrepancies on basic functions whereas many advanced bugs seem to be worked and fixed.
I also hate having to use the browser instead of a standalone app. I lose everything when I need to close my browser.
Personal preferences.
I am stuck on postgresql 8, which certainly doesn’t help.
But they are right, they owe us absolutely nothing since we don’t pay them.
They don’t even have to provide you alternatives.
You should stop complaining.
In my company’s environment, pgAdmin4,is not usable.
We will continue to use pgAdmin3, and I am thinking about developing a GUI for basic stuff (run query, export results, explain plan, display tables details etc) which is 99% of our activities.
Python has some very good libraries for that. If you have a good set of developers, it might make sense.
You could easily do some nice enhancements like exporting as excel with 3 lines of code, automating stuff etc.
On windows, i have tested a few free alternatives but found nothing significantly better than pgAdmin3
On Mac, some folks are using Postico.
Their Windows version is unfortunately not usable.
Sent from my mobile phone
Le 21 août 2020 à 14:50, Rob Richardson <interrobang@yahoo.com> a écrit :
My company relies on PostgreSQL and pgAdmin, as do thousands of other companies, I'm sure. Since most of our customers have been with us for a long time and have stable installations, we have not been upgrading them to the latest PostgreSQL version, and therefore, most of my experience has been with pgAdmin III. Nonetheless, I have been less than impressed with it. It freezes or disables commands at random times. Not enough to prevent me from working, but enough to make me think that the development process has not been rigorous enough.Eventually, I am sure that we will be migrating to modern versions of PostgreSQL and therefore to pgAdmin 4. I've glanced at it. My initial, uneducated impression is that changes were made from pgAdmin III for little reason other than change itself. I would have much preferred to see it keep the same UI rather than moving to a browser.But because PostgreSQL is such a successful database platform, used by thousands upon thousands of mission-critical applications, it is incumbent on the developer community to ensure that its administration tool works well, and that upgrades do not break existing features. If, as you say, we should not count on the developers of pgAdmin 4 to ensure that upgrades do not break existing features, then please suggest a professionally developed, professionally supported alternative that we can pay for and get the quality assurance that we, as professional developers and users, should expect.Rob RichardsonOn Friday, August 21, 2020, 06:51:29 AM EDT, Stephen Knox <stephenknox73@gmail.com> wrote:Gosh, you're right, this does sound very rude.I'm not sure where to start with this and I'm a user, not a developer of the software, so shouldn't be taking this too personally.You seem to have misread the licence of the software: https://github.com/postgres/pgadmin4/blob/master/LICENSE.As this is open source software, no one is guaranteeing you anything (why should they, you didn't pay for it, right?). What they are guaranteeing you is that the code is open for you to view and change if you so desire (given certain conditions). There is a likelihood that other people will come and fix and bugs, create new features, but that is not a given, nor should it be.If it is really "mission-critical software" then sitting around ranting in a mailing list is not going to help you. If you are experiencing these issues (personally I have had very few issues with the software, so can't help you there). You need to do one of:- Ask politely if anyone can help, file bugs properly on the bug tracker by stating your system environment, steps to reproduce etc. Note, this email does not meet the politeness criterion- Obtain the skills yourself to fix your own issues, and ideally contribute those back to the project- Pay someone as a one off to fix the bugs you are experiencing or an ongoing maintenance-type contractI'm afraid your message just comes off as entitled, uninformed, and yes, rude.Stephen KnoxOn Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:pgAdmin v4.25 has yet again broken something. After being harassed to upgrade to the latest version, pgAdmin has stopped opening itself properly.It no longer opens in the correct Pale Moon profile. It now opens in the *default* profile, which completely breaks everything. I've previously tried to explain how important it is for pgAdmin to have its own dedicated GUI/"webview", so I'm not going to go into details about why this is so important here. It seems to fall on deaf ears either way.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
You should stop complaining.
Why? Why would I stop complaining if something is wrong? That's when you are *supposed* to complain. Just because something doesn't cost money doesn't mean it's free. I've paid dearly with blood, sweat and tears. Maybe you consider your time and energy to be worthless, but I don't. In fact, it's far more valuable to me than money. I just don't *have* any money.
I'm really trying to not sound rude, and I often feel bad when I later read replies, but I apparently just can't help it. I *do* feel that they "owe" me a basic stable/sensible PG management software, in some philosophical sense. Not everything is about money. This mentality must end. It's ruined this world.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
You’re an ass!
Great argument. I'm won over. It's clear that you're a very intelligent and mature person who doesn't make yourself look incredibly stupid at all. So short, yet so powerful. Your reply has profoundly changed my entire worldview...
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Akshay Joshi
Date:
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 12:11 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
You should stop complaining.Why? Why would I stop complaining if something is wrong? That's when you are *supposed* to complain. Just because something doesn't cost money doesn't mean it's free. I've paid dearly with blood, sweat and tears. Maybe you consider your time and energy to be worthless, but I don't. In fact, it's far more valuable to me than money. I just don't *have* any money.I'm really trying to not sound rude, and I often feel bad when I later read replies, but I apparently just can't help it. I *do* feel that they "owe" me a basic stable/sensible PG management software, in some philosophical sense. Not everything is about money. This mentality must end. It's ruined this world.
Complaining about something is not wrong but that should not be in a rude way. Words that we use should not demoralize the developers who are working on it and try to provide quality software which makes use of PostgreSQL easier.
To complaint about something we already have Bug tracking system https://redmine.postgresql.org/projects/pgadmin4/issues/new
Definitely it's not all about money and I like your statement "I've paid dearly with blood, sweat, and tears". Please think about the same as the developer's perspective who are working hard. We have very few people working on it with a single QA person.
I have a few questions here:
- Does it happen ever that you have logged the issue and it has not been fixed or rejected(without any proper reason)?
- If it happens have you update the RM so that we came to know about the priority of the issue.
In my last email, I have explained the reason for this weird bug which is reproducible only on Windows. I'm surprised just for one extra click on the "New pgAdmin window" we are into the very long discussion :)
--
Thanks & Regards
Akshay Joshi
pgAdmin Hacker | Sr. Software Architect
EDB PostgresMobile: +91 976-788-8246
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Dave Page
Date:
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
Please consider testing your software before releasing it.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
richard coleman
Date:
Dave,
Thanks for the link. It was very informative. Best wishes to you and your team.
rik.
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:00 AM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.--
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Dave Page
Date:
Thanks Rik!
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:12 PM richard coleman <rcoleman.ascentgl@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave,Thanks for the link. It was very informative. Best wishes to you and your team.rik.On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:00 AM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.--
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
Aug 25, 2020, 2:59 PM by dpage@pgadmin.org:
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.
This certainly convinces me that there is quite a lot of testing happening, so that's at least reassuring in some sense. However, since it's necessary (in practice) to create a separate, dedicated browser profile for pgAdmin (since otherwise, it forgets the entire "state" every time you clear your browser data or close the browser, which happens constantly), breaking the "browser command" in a new version is quite remarkable.
Also, it should be noted that my found work-around, to find the pgAdmin icon in the Notification area, right click it and then click "New pgAdmin window", only works once you are actually running it. When I start my machine, pgAdmin isn't running, so I first have to launch it using my normal Taskbar icon, which up until the latest version opened the correct pgAdmin browser profile. Now, it instead loads for some time and finally opens in the default browser (obviously with forgotten "state"). I then have to close it and then start it with the Notification area work-around.
Yes, I could make it run on boot, to save myself another click and some waiting, but again, the problem isn't that I cannot find a way at all to use pgAdmin -- the issue is that such an "obvious" thing broke. It really makes me wonder how anyone could be running pgAdmin in their standard browser profile. I guess they never or rarely clear their browser data and never have to close all browser windows. I frequently need to do that for many reasons besides privacy, including updates, freezes/crashes (most frequently caused by pgAdmin, ironically), getting the "right order" of grouped windows of different browser profiles, etc.
As I explained previously, it's impossible for me to use a "supported browser" because Chrome (and all its "skins" which pretend to be browsers) as well as Firefox are pure spyware. I don't say that without reason, but I'm not going to go into detail about that again here. At the end of the day, I'm forced to use Pale Moon or nothing at this point, and pgAdmin either hangs entirely or freezes for many, many seconds (half a minute or more is not uncommon) if I forget myself and try to click and resize the object tree pane to make me able to see what it contains. I have to actively remember to just scroll horizontally or else I can say "good bye" to that entire pgAdmin session. Which has many times caused loss of work/state for me. The same thing happens even if I just maximize/restore the window. The most likely cause is some JavaScript code used to "redraw" or "recalculate" the view.
As you can see, I have extremely good reasons for wanting pgAdmin to ship with its own GUI/webview, and I frankly don't understand the stated reasons for why this is not done. I don't think you're lying, but NW.js (for example) uses Chrome/Chromium's engine and should not be possible to have any issues rendering and handling pgAdmin on all supported OSes. (I don't mention Electron because its developer is extremely toxic.)
Yes, I'm aware that pgAdmin can be run in a "hosted" manner, so it still has to support "other browsers" (whatever that means at this point with Google's engine having a total monopoly besides a minimal Firefox and Safari user base), but then you could at least say that there's always the option to download the "stand-alone" version of pgAdmin which comes with a nice GUI/webview and never has to interfere in any way with existing browsers and all the nightmares that entails.
The fact that you, the developers, don't see this as the #1 priority makes me wonder how it's possible that my "workflow" is apparently so fundamentally different from yours. Note that I'm not bashing the entire concept of "web apps", as this is what I have the most experience with myself, but simply the reluctance of packaging it in such a manner that it can be used without piggybacking on other software.
I actually remember trying it out early on when it was still a stand-alone thing, and while it was horribly slow and buggy, I never attributed this to the fact that it ran in some kind of webview. That makes no sense to me. My browser is an old fork of Firefox, maintained by "some guy in his basement", and I use it solely out of having no other choice. How can a webview which simply uses the Chromium engine (as evil as I find it, but that's a different problem) possibly be slower at rendering pgAdmin, which was made to support Chrome? Something about that doesn't add up.
pgAdmin III is entirely unusable at this point, and none of the "alternatives" to pgAdmin 4 are usable (for a number of reasons which are also pointless to list). I thus consider pgAdmin 4 to be the "official" and *only* software to administrate PostgreSQL databases. The CLI tool shipping with PG is not usable for somebody like me who cannot memorize syntax, and comes with all the limitations and problems of any CLI tool, and the last thing I want to do (or have time for) is sit and code my own tool just for myself. There are a number of things in pgAdmin 4 which would be a massive pain to reimplement.
To say something positive about pgAdmin 4, one of the best things ever, which was sorely lacking in pgAdmin III, is the ability to mark rows for deletion and to delete them from any "result view", as well as making edits of cells in a natural way.
It was probably going too far when I claimed at some point that the pgAdmin developers are doing this "on purpose, out of sadism", but it sometimes really feels like that when software authors do various things which seem just beyond all rhyme and reason. I think that many users of software in general would agree with me in that we want stability far, far, *far* more than "new features", once a minimum working environment has been accomplished. For example, Windows 10 is an ever-changing nightmare of bloat and broken nonsense. They just keep piling on garbage when they should have long since gone back to Windows 95-era polish, consistency and quality control.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Jack Royal-Gordon
Date:
Here’s a thought that I think could solve your issues:
It sounds like a lot of your issues are caused by the insistence on using PaleMoon. I don’t imagine that the team does much if any testing against PaleMoon, so I’m not shocked that you have issues with it. And I get it - you want private browsing. Why don’t you use Chrome for pgAdmin, and use PaleMoon for everything else? I don’t imagine that Chrome’s “spying” would be an issue for you with pgAdmin. Are you thinking that they’re going to monitor the databases you are administering?
On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:32 AM, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote:Aug 25, 2020, 2:59 PM by dpage@pgadmin.org:On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.This certainly convinces me that there is quite a lot of testing happening, so that's at least reassuring in some sense. However, since it's necessary (in practice) to create a separate, dedicated browser profile for pgAdmin (since otherwise, it forgets the entire "state" every time you clear your browser data or close the browser, which happens constantly), breaking the "browser command" in a new version is quite remarkable.Also, it should be noted that my found work-around, to find the pgAdmin icon in the Notification area, right click it and then click "New pgAdmin window", only works once you are actually running it. When I start my machine, pgAdmin isn't running, so I first have to launch it using my normal Taskbar icon, which up until the latest version opened the correct pgAdmin browser profile. Now, it instead loads for some time and finally opens in the default browser (obviously with forgotten "state"). I then have to close it and then start it with the Notification area work-around.Yes, I could make it run on boot, to save myself another click and some waiting, but again, the problem isn't that I cannot find a way at all to use pgAdmin -- the issue is that such an "obvious" thing broke. It really makes me wonder how anyone could be running pgAdmin in their standard browser profile. I guess they never or rarely clear their browser data and never have to close all browser windows. I frequently need to do that for many reasons besides privacy, including updates, freezes/crashes (most frequently caused by pgAdmin, ironically), getting the "right order" of grouped windows of different browser profiles, etc.As I explained previously, it's impossible for me to use a "supported browser" because Chrome (and all its "skins" which pretend to be browsers) as well as Firefox are pure spyware. I don't say that without reason, but I'm not going to go into detail about that again here. At the end of the day, I'm forced to use Pale Moon or nothing at this point, and pgAdmin either hangs entirely or freezes for many, many seconds (half a minute or more is not uncommon) if I forget myself and try to click and resize the object tree pane to make me able to see what it contains. I have to actively remember to just scroll horizontally or else I can say "good bye" to that entire pgAdmin session. Which has many times caused loss of work/state for me. The same thing happens even if I just maximize/restore the window. The most likely cause is some JavaScript code used to "redraw" or "recalculate" the view.As you can see, I have extremely good reasons for wanting pgAdmin to ship with its own GUI/webview, and I frankly don't understand the stated reasons for why this is not done. I don't think you're lying, but NW.js (for example) uses Chrome/Chromium's engine and should not be possible to have any issues rendering and handling pgAdmin on all supported OSes. (I don't mention Electron because its developer is extremely toxic.)Yes, I'm aware that pgAdmin can be run in a "hosted" manner, so it still has to support "other browsers" (whatever that means at this point with Google's engine having a total monopoly besides a minimal Firefox and Safari user base), but then you could at least say that there's always the option to download the "stand-alone" version of pgAdmin which comes with a nice GUI/webview and never has to interfere in any way with existing browsers and all the nightmares that entails.The fact that you, the developers, don't see this as the #1 priority makes me wonder how it's possible that my "workflow" is apparently so fundamentally different from yours. Note that I'm not bashing the entire concept of "web apps", as this is what I have the most experience with myself, but simply the reluctance of packaging it in such a manner that it can be used without piggybacking on other software.I actually remember trying it out early on when it was still a stand-alone thing, and while it was horribly slow and buggy, I never attributed this to the fact that it ran in some kind of webview. That makes no sense to me. My browser is an old fork of Firefox, maintained by "some guy in his basement", and I use it solely out of having no other choice. How can a webview which simply uses the Chromium engine (as evil as I find it, but that's a different problem) possibly be slower at rendering pgAdmin, which was made to support Chrome? Something about that doesn't add up.pgAdmin III is entirely unusable at this point, and none of the "alternatives" to pgAdmin 4 are usable (for a number of reasons which are also pointless to list). I thus consider pgAdmin 4 to be the "official" and *only* software to administrate PostgreSQL databases. The CLI tool shipping with PG is not usable for somebody like me who cannot memorize syntax, and comes with all the limitations and problems of any CLI tool, and the last thing I want to do (or have time for) is sit and code my own tool just for myself. There are a number of things in pgAdmin 4 which would be a massive pain to reimplement.To say something positive about pgAdmin 4, one of the best things ever, which was sorely lacking in pgAdmin III, is the ability to mark rows for deletion and to delete them from any "result view", as well as making edits of cells in a natural way.It was probably going too far when I claimed at some point that the pgAdmin developers are doing this "on purpose, out of sadism", but it sometimes really feels like that when software authors do various things which seem just beyond all rhyme and reason. I think that many users of software in general would agree with me in that we want stability far, far, *far* more than "new features", once a minimum working environment has been accomplished. For example, Windows 10 is an ever-changing nightmare of bloat and broken nonsense. They just keep piling on garbage when they should have long since gone back to Windows 95-era polish, consistency and quality control.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
richard coleman
Date:
That's what I do.
Chromium for pgAdmin4, Chrome, Vivaldi, Firefox for everything else.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
rik.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 5:00 PM Jack Royal-Gordon <jackrg@pobox.com> wrote:
Here’s a thought that I think could solve your issues:It sounds like a lot of your issues are caused by the insistence on using PaleMoon. I don’t imagine that the team does much if any testing against PaleMoon, so I’m not shocked that you have issues with it. And I get it - you want private browsing. Why don’t you use Chrome for pgAdmin, and use PaleMoon for everything else? I don’t imagine that Chrome’s “spying” would be an issue for you with pgAdmin. Are you thinking that they’re going to monitor the databases you are administering?On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:32 AM, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote:Aug 25, 2020, 2:59 PM by dpage@pgadmin.org:On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.This certainly convinces me that there is quite a lot of testing happening, so that's at least reassuring in some sense. However, since it's necessary (in practice) to create a separate, dedicated browser profile for pgAdmin (since otherwise, it forgets the entire "state" every time you clear your browser data or close the browser, which happens constantly), breaking the "browser command" in a new version is quite remarkable.Also, it should be noted that my found work-around, to find the pgAdmin icon in the Notification area, right click it and then click "New pgAdmin window", only works once you are actually running it. When I start my machine, pgAdmin isn't running, so I first have to launch it using my normal Taskbar icon, which up until the latest version opened the correct pgAdmin browser profile. Now, it instead loads for some time and finally opens in the default browser (obviously with forgotten "state"). I then have to close it and then start it with the Notification area work-around.Yes, I could make it run on boot, to save myself another click and some waiting, but again, the problem isn't that I cannot find a way at all to use pgAdmin -- the issue is that such an "obvious" thing broke. It really makes me wonder how anyone could be running pgAdmin in their standard browser profile. I guess they never or rarely clear their browser data and never have to close all browser windows. I frequently need to do that for many reasons besides privacy, including updates, freezes/crashes (most frequently caused by pgAdmin, ironically), getting the "right order" of grouped windows of different browser profiles, etc.As I explained previously, it's impossible for me to use a "supported browser" because Chrome (and all its "skins" which pretend to be browsers) as well as Firefox are pure spyware. I don't say that without reason, but I'm not going to go into detail about that again here. At the end of the day, I'm forced to use Pale Moon or nothing at this point, and pgAdmin either hangs entirely or freezes for many, many seconds (half a minute or more is not uncommon) if I forget myself and try to click and resize the object tree pane to make me able to see what it contains. I have to actively remember to just scroll horizontally or else I can say "good bye" to that entire pgAdmin session. Which has many times caused loss of work/state for me. The same thing happens even if I just maximize/restore the window. The most likely cause is some JavaScript code used to "redraw" or "recalculate" the view.As you can see, I have extremely good reasons for wanting pgAdmin to ship with its own GUI/webview, and I frankly don't understand the stated reasons for why this is not done. I don't think you're lying, but NW.js (for example) uses Chrome/Chromium's engine and should not be possible to have any issues rendering and handling pgAdmin on all supported OSes. (I don't mention Electron because its developer is extremely toxic.)Yes, I'm aware that pgAdmin can be run in a "hosted" manner, so it still has to support "other browsers" (whatever that means at this point with Google's engine having a total monopoly besides a minimal Firefox and Safari user base), but then you could at least say that there's always the option to download the "stand-alone" version of pgAdmin which comes with a nice GUI/webview and never has to interfere in any way with existing browsers and all the nightmares that entails.The fact that you, the developers, don't see this as the #1 priority makes me wonder how it's possible that my "workflow" is apparently so fundamentally different from yours. Note that I'm not bashing the entire concept of "web apps", as this is what I have the most experience with myself, but simply the reluctance of packaging it in such a manner that it can be used without piggybacking on other software.I actually remember trying it out early on when it was still a stand-alone thing, and while it was horribly slow and buggy, I never attributed this to the fact that it ran in some kind of webview. That makes no sense to me. My browser is an old fork of Firefox, maintained by "some guy in his basement", and I use it solely out of having no other choice. How can a webview which simply uses the Chromium engine (as evil as I find it, but that's a different problem) possibly be slower at rendering pgAdmin, which was made to support Chrome? Something about that doesn't add up.pgAdmin III is entirely unusable at this point, and none of the "alternatives" to pgAdmin 4 are usable (for a number of reasons which are also pointless to list). I thus consider pgAdmin 4 to be the "official" and *only* software to administrate PostgreSQL databases. The CLI tool shipping with PG is not usable for somebody like me who cannot memorize syntax, and comes with all the limitations and problems of any CLI tool, and the last thing I want to do (or have time for) is sit and code my own tool just for myself. There are a number of things in pgAdmin 4 which would be a massive pain to reimplement.To say something positive about pgAdmin 4, one of the best things ever, which was sorely lacking in pgAdmin III, is the ability to mark rows for deletion and to delete them from any "result view", as well as making edits of cells in a natural way.It was probably going too far when I claimed at some point that the pgAdmin developers are doing this "on purpose, out of sadism", but it sometimes really feels like that when software authors do various things which seem just beyond all rhyme and reason. I think that many users of software in general would agree with me in that we want stability far, far, *far* more than "new features", once a minimum working environment has been accomplished. For example, Windows 10 is an ever-changing nightmare of bloat and broken nonsense. They just keep piling on garbage when they should have long since gone back to Windows 95-era polish, consistency and quality control.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
I don't "insist upon" anything. As already mentioned numerous times, both on the list and to you personally, there is *no choice*. I hate Pale Moon. Don't twist my words into some kind of Pale Moon advocacy. It's a garbage fork with numerous issues. I use it *because there is no choice*. Why is it so difficult to understand? Has every classic "computer geek" disappeared from this world or what the hell is going on? Do you not have the faintest idea what Google is about? This is as baffling as those who insist that Mozilla "stands for privacy", or even that Microsoft does. It's like we are living in different universes which have somehow crossed.
So you "solution" is to install Google's cancerware because... it won't spy on me if I wish hard enough? You are not making any sense. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read (which nobody ever does, so why am I even still trying to communicate?), you'd have seen that my main issue has nothing to do with Pale Moon and everything to do with pgAdmin 4 not executing its "browser command". I'm not going to repeat this a single more time now.
It's insulting to keep hearing supposedly intelligent people suggest to install spyware. You're a damn fool if you subject yourself and others to this.
Aug 26, 2020, 11:00 PM by jackrg@pobox.com:
Here’s a thought that I think could solve your issues:It sounds like a lot of your issues are caused by the insistence on using PaleMoon. I don’t imagine that the team does much if any testing against PaleMoon, so I’m not shocked that you have issues with it. And I get it - you want private browsing. Why don’t you use Chrome for pgAdmin, and use PaleMoon for everything else? I don’t imagine that Chrome’s “spying” would be an issue for you with pgAdmin. Are you thinking that they’re going to monitor the databases you are administering?On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:32 AM, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote:Aug 25, 2020, 2:59 PM by dpage@pgadmin.org:On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.This certainly convinces me that there is quite a lot of testing happening, so that's at least reassuring in some sense. However, since it's necessary (in practice) to create a separate, dedicated browser profile for pgAdmin (since otherwise, it forgets the entire "state" every time you clear your browser data or close the browser, which happens constantly), breaking the "browser command" in a new version is quite remarkable.Also, it should be noted that my found work-around, to find the pgAdmin icon in the Notification area, right click it and then click "New pgAdmin window", only works once you are actually running it. When I start my machine, pgAdmin isn't running, so I first have to launch it using my normal Taskbar icon, which up until the latest version opened the correct pgAdmin browser profile. Now, it instead loads for some time and finally opens in the default browser (obviously with forgotten "state"). I then have to close it and then start it with the Notification area work-around.Yes, I could make it run on boot, to save myself another click and some waiting, but again, the problem isn't that I cannot find a way at all to use pgAdmin -- the issue is that such an "obvious" thing broke. It really makes me wonder how anyone could be running pgAdmin in their standard browser profile. I guess they never or rarely clear their browser data and never have to close all browser windows. I frequently need to do that for many reasons besides privacy, including updates, freezes/crashes (most frequently caused by pgAdmin, ironically), getting the "right order" of grouped windows of different browser profiles, etc.As I explained previously, it's impossible for me to use a "supported browser" because Chrome (and all its "skins" which pretend to be browsers) as well as Firefox are pure spyware. I don't say that without reason, but I'm not going to go into detail about that again here. At the end of the day, I'm forced to use Pale Moon or nothing at this point, and pgAdmin either hangs entirely or freezes for many, many seconds (half a minute or more is not uncommon) if I forget myself and try to click and resize the object tree pane to make me able to see what it contains. I have to actively remember to just scroll horizontally or else I can say "good bye" to that entire pgAdmin session. Which has many times caused loss of work/state for me. The same thing happens even if I just maximize/restore the window. The most likely cause is some JavaScript code used to "redraw" or "recalculate" the view.As you can see, I have extremely good reasons for wanting pgAdmin to ship with its own GUI/webview, and I frankly don't understand the stated reasons for why this is not done. I don't think you're lying, but NW.js (for example) uses Chrome/Chromium's engine and should not be possible to have any issues rendering and handling pgAdmin on all supported OSes. (I don't mention Electron because its developer is extremely toxic.)Yes, I'm aware that pgAdmin can be run in a "hosted" manner, so it still has to support "other browsers" (whatever that means at this point with Google's engine having a total monopoly besides a minimal Firefox and Safari user base), but then you could at least say that there's always the option to download the "stand-alone" version of pgAdmin which comes with a nice GUI/webview and never has to interfere in any way with existing browsers and all the nightmares that entails.The fact that you, the developers, don't see this as the #1 priority makes me wonder how it's possible that my "workflow" is apparently so fundamentally different from yours. Note that I'm not bashing the entire concept of "web apps", as this is what I have the most experience with myself, but simply the reluctance of packaging it in such a manner that it can be used without piggybacking on other software.I actually remember trying it out early on when it was still a stand-alone thing, and while it was horribly slow and buggy, I never attributed this to the fact that it ran in some kind of webview. That makes no sense to me. My browser is an old fork of Firefox, maintained by "some guy in his basement", and I use it solely out of having no other choice. How can a webview which simply uses the Chromium engine (as evil as I find it, but that's a different problem) possibly be slower at rendering pgAdmin, which was made to support Chrome? Something about that doesn't add up.pgAdmin III is entirely unusable at this point, and none of the "alternatives" to pgAdmin 4 are usable (for a number of reasons which are also pointless to list). I thus consider pgAdmin 4 to be the "official" and *only* software to administrate PostgreSQL databases. The CLI tool shipping with PG is not usable for somebody like me who cannot memorize syntax, and comes with all the limitations and problems of any CLI tool, and the last thing I want to do (or have time for) is sit and code my own tool just for myself. There are a number of things in pgAdmin 4 which would be a massive pain to reimplement.To say something positive about pgAdmin 4, one of the best things ever, which was sorely lacking in pgAdmin III, is the ability to mark rows for deletion and to delete them from any "result view", as well as making edits of cells in a natural way.It was probably going too far when I claimed at some point that the pgAdmin developers are doing this "on purpose, out of sadism", but it sometimes really feels like that when software authors do various things which seem just beyond all rhyme and reason. I think that many users of software in general would agree with me in that we want stability far, far, *far* more than "new features", once a minimum working environment has been accomplished. For example, Windows 10 is an ever-changing nightmare of bloat and broken nonsense. They just keep piling on garbage when they should have long since gone back to Windows 95-era polish, consistency and quality control.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Christophe Pettus
Date:
> On Aug 27, 2020, at 06:57, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote: > > You're a damn fool if you subject yourself and others to this. Please be civil on community lists. Language like this is unproductive. -- -- Christophe Pettus xof@thebuild.com
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Jack Royal-Gordon
Date:
Perhaps I chose my words poorly - “insist, while being accurate, probably carries negative connotations that were unnecessary. You “chose” to use Pale Moon. To you, it appeared to be the only reasonable alternative; that may be true or may not - it is subject to debate. But you “chose” to use it when there were other options available. I get that you don’t consider them acceptable options, but they are options nevertheless. I’ll let the developers speak for themselves if they choose to, but I can imagine that their testing does not include Pale Moon, so if there is a behavior in the product that is specific to Pale Moon (as it appears the issue you are bringing up is), it’s only due to not testing with Pale Moon.
Regardless of how logical it is to use Pale Moon, do you feel that the team is responsible for testing EVERY option that a user might choose? I would bet that if we took a poll of users, that less than 1% would say that they use Pale Moon. So how much of the team's testing capacity should be dedicated to a “configuration” that less than 1% of the user base uses?
You can continue to say that everyone else is wrong and you are right, but that’s not very productive, regardless of whether you’re right or wrong.
And I say again that if the latest version of pgAdmin does not work correctly for you with Pale Moon, then report the bug and revert to the older version of pgAdmin that DOES work with Pale Moon. I suspect that if the cause is found, the team will add an automated test to ensure that the problem does not recur. That won’t stop other problems from occurring, and problems with pdAdmin in a relatively disused configuration are going to go unfound until you find them. That’s just reality. You can scream about it all you want, but that isn’t going to change anything.
On Aug 27, 2020, at 6:57 AM, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote:I don't "insist upon" anything. As already mentioned numerous times, both on the list and to you personally, there is *no choice*. I hate Pale Moon. Don't twist my words into some kind of Pale Moon advocacy. It's a garbage fork with numerous issues. I use it *because there is no choice*. Why is it so difficult to understand? Has every classic "computer geek" disappeared from this world or what the hell is going on? Do you not have the faintest idea what Google is about? This is as baffling as those who insist that Mozilla "stands for privacy", or even that Microsoft does. It's like we are living in different universes which have somehow crossed.So you "solution" is to install Google's cancerware because... it won't spy on me if I wish hard enough? You are not making any sense. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read (which nobody ever does, so why am I even still trying to communicate?), you'd have seen that my main issue has nothing to do with Pale Moon and everything to do with pgAdmin 4 not executing its "browser command". I'm not going to repeat this a single more time now.It's insulting to keep hearing supposedly intelligent people suggest to install spyware. You're a damn fool if you subject yourself and others to this.Aug 26, 2020, 11:00 PM by jackrg@pobox.com:Here’s a thought that I think could solve your issues:It sounds like a lot of your issues are caused by the insistence on using PaleMoon. I don’t imagine that the team does much if any testing against PaleMoon, so I’m not shocked that you have issues with it. And I get it - you want private browsing. Why don’t you use Chrome for pgAdmin, and use PaleMoon for everything else? I don’t imagine that Chrome’s “spying” would be an issue for you with pgAdmin. Are you thinking that they’re going to monitor the databases you are administering?On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:32 AM, tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote:Aug 25, 2020, 2:59 PM by dpage@pgadmin.org:On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:Please consider testing your software before releasing it.This certainly convinces me that there is quite a lot of testing happening, so that's at least reassuring in some sense. However, since it's necessary (in practice) to create a separate, dedicated browser profile for pgAdmin (since otherwise, it forgets the entire "state" every time you clear your browser data or close the browser, which happens constantly), breaking the "browser command" in a new version is quite remarkable.Also, it should be noted that my found work-around, to find the pgAdmin icon in the Notification area, right click it and then click "New pgAdmin window", only works once you are actually running it. When I start my machine, pgAdmin isn't running, so I first have to launch it using my normal Taskbar icon, which up until the latest version opened the correct pgAdmin browser profile. Now, it instead loads for some time and finally opens in the default browser (obviously with forgotten "state"). I then have to close it and then start it with the Notification area work-around.Yes, I could make it run on boot, to save myself another click and some waiting, but again, the problem isn't that I cannot find a way at all to use pgAdmin -- the issue is that such an "obvious" thing broke. It really makes me wonder how anyone could be running pgAdmin in their standard browser profile. I guess they never or rarely clear their browser data and never have to close all browser windows. I frequently need to do that for many reasons besides privacy, including updates, freezes/crashes (most frequently caused by pgAdmin, ironically), getting the "right order" of grouped windows of different browser profiles, etc.As I explained previously, it's impossible for me to use a "supported browser" because Chrome (and all its "skins" which pretend to be browsers) as well as Firefox are pure spyware. I don't say that without reason, but I'm not going to go into detail about that again here. At the end of the day, I'm forced to use Pale Moon or nothing at this point, and pgAdmin either hangs entirely or freezes for many, many seconds (half a minute or more is not uncommon) if I forget myself and try to click and resize the object tree pane to make me able to see what it contains. I have to actively remember to just scroll horizontally or else I can say "good bye" to that entire pgAdmin session. Which has many times caused loss of work/state for me. The same thing happens even if I just maximize/restore the window. The most likely cause is some JavaScript code used to "redraw" or "recalculate" the view.As you can see, I have extremely good reasons for wanting pgAdmin to ship with its own GUI/webview, and I frankly don't understand the stated reasons for why this is not done. I don't think you're lying, but NW.js (for example) uses Chrome/Chromium's engine and should not be possible to have any issues rendering and handling pgAdmin on all supported OSes. (I don't mention Electron because its developer is extremely toxic.)Yes, I'm aware that pgAdmin can be run in a "hosted" manner, so it still has to support "other browsers" (whatever that means at this point with Google's engine having a total monopoly besides a minimal Firefox and Safari user base), but then you could at least say that there's always the option to download the "stand-alone" version of pgAdmin which comes with a nice GUI/webview and never has to interfere in any way with existing browsers and all the nightmares that entails.The fact that you, the developers, don't see this as the #1 priority makes me wonder how it's possible that my "workflow" is apparently so fundamentally different from yours. Note that I'm not bashing the entire concept of "web apps", as this is what I have the most experience with myself, but simply the reluctance of packaging it in such a manner that it can be used without piggybacking on other software.I actually remember trying it out early on when it was still a stand-alone thing, and while it was horribly slow and buggy, I never attributed this to the fact that it ran in some kind of webview. That makes no sense to me. My browser is an old fork of Firefox, maintained by "some guy in his basement", and I use it solely out of having no other choice. How can a webview which simply uses the Chromium engine (as evil as I find it, but that's a different problem) possibly be slower at rendering pgAdmin, which was made to support Chrome? Something about that doesn't add up.pgAdmin III is entirely unusable at this point, and none of the "alternatives" to pgAdmin 4 are usable (for a number of reasons which are also pointless to list). I thus consider pgAdmin 4 to be the "official" and *only* software to administrate PostgreSQL databases. The CLI tool shipping with PG is not usable for somebody like me who cannot memorize syntax, and comes with all the limitations and problems of any CLI tool, and the last thing I want to do (or have time for) is sit and code my own tool just for myself. There are a number of things in pgAdmin 4 which would be a massive pain to reimplement.To say something positive about pgAdmin 4, one of the best things ever, which was sorely lacking in pgAdmin III, is the ability to mark rows for deletion and to delete them from any "result view", as well as making edits of cells in a natural way.It was probably going too far when I claimed at some point that the pgAdmin developers are doing this "on purpose, out of sadism", but it sometimes really feels like that when software authors do various things which seem just beyond all rhyme and reason. I think that many users of software in general would agree with me in that we want stability far, far, *far* more than "new features", once a minimum working environment has been accomplished. For example, Windows 10 is an ever-changing nightmare of bloat and broken nonsense. They just keep piling on garbage when they should have long since gone back to Windows 95-era polish, consistency and quality control.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
tutiluren@tutanota.com
Date:
Aug 27, 2020, 4:43 PM by jackrg@pobox.com:
You “chose” to use Pale Moon.
No, I did not.
To you, it appeared to be the only reasonable alternative
Not only does it appear that way -- it *is* that way.
you “chose” to use it when there were other options available.
There are no other options.
I get that you don’t consider them acceptable options, but they are options nevertheless.
It's like having the "option" to be injected with two different kinds of deadly diseases, or just a common flu. (Pale Moon is the common flu.) I don't understand why you insist that there are options.
if there is a behavior in the product that is specific to Pale Moon (as it appears the issue you are bringing up is)
No. For the love of the holy PostgreSQL elephant, read before replying...
do you feel that the team is responsible for testing EVERY option that a user might choose?
This is the *entire point* of using a stand-alone GUI/webview...
I would bet that if we took a poll of users, that less than 1% would say that they use Pale Moon.
So what? Less than 1% of the general population have any kind of brain as well. But again, it doesn't matter as the issue isn't with Pale Moon. And the (secondary) issues that *are* with Pale Moon should not exist either. The pgAdmin developers should be using Pale Moon themselves as there is no non-spyware browser available in this dystopian nightmare that the Internet (and the world in general) has turned into.
So how much of the team's testing capacity should be dedicated to a “configuration” that less than 1% of the user base uses?
100%, if that 1% are the only ones who have a brain. In fact, it should detect any use of Chrome/Firefox and display a big warning that Google/Mozilla are spying on every key they press down inside those trojans, and direct them to download a real browser. Sadly, even Pale Moon isn't what I would call a "real browser". But it's at least free from the worst kind of obvious, malicious spying by the browser vendor itself.
You can continue to say that everyone else is wrong and you are right
That's... not what I've been saying. If you don't recognize that Chrome/Firefox are spyware, you *are* objectively wrong. There's just no two ways about it. Are you astroturfing for Google/Mozilla (it's almost pointless to even mention Mozilla at all anymore because they are owned by Google)? Why persist in defending this evil mega corporation's horrific treatment of your security?
And I say again that if the latest version of pgAdmin does not work correctly for you with Pale Moon, then report the bug and revert to the older version of pgAdmin that DOES work with Pale Moon. I suspect that if the cause is found, the team will add an automated test to ensure that the problem does not recur. That won’t stop other problems from occurring, and problems with pdAdmin in a relatively disused configuration are going to go unfound until you find them.
I've already jumped through tons of hoops and wasted tons of time and effort sending messages to this mailing list. I'm not going to sit and "file bugs" on top of that, doubtlessly requiring me to jump through even more hoops. I'm not a pgAdmin developer. Every bug I've ever managed to file in the past for any project has been ignored. FOSS developers hate bug reports and make it obnoxiously difficult to submit them. This is what I learned many, many years ago.
That’s just reality.
Yeah, it's hopeless, so let's all just install Google's cancerware. That'll show them for sure.
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Akshay Joshi
Date:
Hi All
We have fixed the weird issue of BrowserCommand and FixedPort both. It will be part of the release on 19th September but if someone wants to test it and confirm then please download and install the nightly build from https://www.postgresql.org/ftp/pgadmin/pgadmin4/snapshots/2020-09-02/
Note: If you are testing the snapshot build just keep that in mind there are commits which are still in "Testing".
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 8:58 AM <tutiluren@tutanota.com> wrote:
Aug 27, 2020, 4:43 PM by jackrg@pobox.com:You “chose” to use Pale Moon.No, I did not.To you, it appeared to be the only reasonable alternativeNot only does it appear that way -- it *is* that way.you “chose” to use it when there were other options available.There are no other options.I get that you don’t consider them acceptable options, but they are options nevertheless.It's like having the "option" to be injected with two different kinds of deadly diseases, or just a common flu. (Pale Moon is the common flu.) I don't understand why you insist that there are options.if there is a behavior in the product that is specific to Pale Moon (as it appears the issue you are bringing up is)No. For the love of the holy PostgreSQL elephant, read before replying...do you feel that the team is responsible for testing EVERY option that a user might choose?This is the *entire point* of using a stand-alone GUI/webview...I would bet that if we took a poll of users, that less than 1% would say that they use Pale Moon.So what? Less than 1% of the general population have any kind of brain as well. But again, it doesn't matter as the issue isn't with Pale Moon. And the (secondary) issues that *are* with Pale Moon should not exist either. The pgAdmin developers should be using Pale Moon themselves as there is no non-spyware browser available in this dystopian nightmare that the Internet (and the world in general) has turned into.So how much of the team's testing capacity should be dedicated to a “configuration” that less than 1% of the user base uses?100%, if that 1% are the only ones who have a brain. In fact, it should detect any use of Chrome/Firefox and display a big warning that Google/Mozilla are spying on every key they press down inside those trojans, and direct them to download a real browser. Sadly, even Pale Moon isn't what I would call a "real browser". But it's at least free from the worst kind of obvious, malicious spying by the browser vendor itself.You can continue to say that everyone else is wrong and you are rightThat's... not what I've been saying. If you don't recognize that Chrome/Firefox are spyware, you *are* objectively wrong. There's just no two ways about it. Are you astroturfing for Google/Mozilla (it's almost pointless to even mention Mozilla at all anymore because they are owned by Google)? Why persist in defending this evil mega corporation's horrific treatment of your security?And I say again that if the latest version of pgAdmin does not work correctly for you with Pale Moon, then report the bug and revert to the older version of pgAdmin that DOES work with Pale Moon. I suspect that if the cause is found, the team will add an automated test to ensure that the problem does not recur. That won’t stop other problems from occurring, and problems with pdAdmin in a relatively disused configuration are going to go unfound until you find them.I've already jumped through tons of hoops and wasted tons of time and effort sending messages to this mailing list. I'm not going to sit and "file bugs" on top of that, doubtlessly requiring me to jump through even more hoops. I'm not a pgAdmin developer. Every bug I've ever managed to file in the past for any project has been ignored. FOSS developers hate bug reports and make it obnoxiously difficult to submit them. This is what I learned many, many years ago.That’s just reality.Yeah, it's hopeless, so let's all just install Google's cancerware. That'll show them for sure.
--
Thanks & Regards
Akshay Joshi
pgAdmin Hacker | Sr. Software Architect
EDB PostgresMobile: +91 976-788-8246
Re: Critical bug: pgAdmin v4.25 has started ignoring my "Browser Command" which completely cripples me and makes me unable to manage my PostgreSQL database.
From
Darren Duncan
Date:
On 2020-08-28 8:28 p.m., tutiluren@tutanota.com wrote: > That's... not what I've been saying. If you don't recognize that Chrome/Firefox > are spyware, you *are* objectively wrong. There's just no two ways about it. Are > you astroturfing for Google/Mozilla (it's almost pointless to even mention > Mozilla at all anymore because they are owned by Google)? Why persist in > defending this evil mega corporation's horrific treatment of your security? You haven't actually explained what the harm here is. So what if Chrome or Firefox "spy" on you. What is an *actual* harm you have suffered or expect to suffer because of using those browsers? What would they do with what they learn that would cause you actual harm? > I've already jumped through tons of hoops and wasted tons of time and effort > sending messages to this mailing list. I'm not going to sit and "file bugs" on > top of that, doubtlessly requiring me to jump through even more hoops. I'm not a > pgAdmin developer. Every bug I've ever managed to file in the past for any > project has been ignored. FOSS developers hate bug reports and make it > obnoxiously difficult to submit them. This is what I learned many, many years ago. Its already established that filing bugs is the only valid way to get a problem solved. So if you're wasting your time continuing to send messages to this mailing list rather than filing the bugs, then you should have spent the time filing the bugs instead. That's the only way your pgAdmin problems would get fixed. -- Darren Duncan