Thread: PostgreSQL moderation report: 2010-1-25
PostgreSQL.org moderation report - 2010-1-25 14:0:1. There are 12 documentation comment(s) requiring moderation. There are 7 event(s) requiring moderation. There are 2 news item(s) requiring moderation. There are 5 professional service(s) requiring moderation. Moderators; please check and moderate these items as soon as possible!
On 1/25/10 6:00 AM, webmaster@postgresql.org wrote: > PostgreSQL.org moderation report - 2010-1-25 14:0:1. > > There are 12 documentation comment(s) requiring moderation. > There are 7 event(s) requiring moderation. > There are 2 news item(s) requiring moderation. > There are 5 professional service(s) requiring moderation. Is anyone approving stuff other than me? AFAICT, absolutely nothing has been approved since I left for New Zealand. This means that some of the above news and events has already missed its deadlines. --Josh Berkus
> Apparently not. My energy levels for trying to improve this issue are > roughly zero at the moment - I've lost count of the number of times > I've tried to chivvy up moderators over the years :-( Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think personal harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is going to work. --Josh
On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 11:04 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Apparently not. My energy levels for trying to improve this issue are > > roughly zero at the moment - I've lost count of the number of times > > I've tried to chivvy up moderators over the years :-( > > Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think personal > harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is going to work. Are you looking to have moderators quit? > > --Josh > > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering Respect is earned, not gained through arbitrary and repetitive use or Mr. or Sir.
> Are you looking to have moderators quit? If they're not doing any moderation, does it matter if they quit? --Josh Berkus
On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 13:56 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Are you looking to have moderators quit? > > If they're not doing any moderation, does it matter if they quit? True that :) > > --Josh Berkus > > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering Respect is earned, not gained through arbitrary and repetitive use or Mr. or Sir.
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 11:04 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > >>> Apparently not. My energy levels for trying to improve this issue are >>> roughly zero at the moment - I've lost count of the number of times >>> I've tried to chivvy up moderators over the years :-( >>> >> Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think personal >> harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is going to work. >> > > Are you looking to have moderators quit? > Well, apparently they already did. Is there a clear "How to be a moderator" guide? As someone who expects future news/events announcements I'll be associated with to publish, I now have some personal interest in making sure this backlog goes away. If I have to clear up everybody else's mess in the process I'll do that. I know Gabriele here already asked about this topic. Since I think the main requirements here are being able to read English really fast and willingness to kick out people who don't follow the rules, I think I'm a little ahead of him on both--he's probably too nice to be effective on that second part. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.com
On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 11:04 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Apparently not. My energy levels for trying to improve this issue are > > roughly zero at the moment - I've lost count of the number of times > > I've tried to chivvy up moderators over the years :-( > > Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think personal > harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is going to work. Are you looking to have moderators quit? > > --Josh > > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering Respect is earned, not gained through arbitrary and repetitive use or Mr. or Sir.
On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 13:56 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Are you looking to have moderators quit? > > If they're not doing any moderation, does it matter if they quit? True that :) > > --Josh Berkus > > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering Respect is earned, not gained through arbitrary and repetitive use or Mr. or Sir.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >> Are you looking to have moderators quit? >> > > Well, apparently they already did. Quite. > Is there a clear "How to be a moderator" guide? As someone who expects > future news/events announcements I'll be associated with to publish, I now > have some personal interest in making sure this backlog goes away. There's no guide, other than 'follow the policy, and don't moderate anything from yourself or your employer'. -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
2010/1/26 Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org>
This already came up as an issue recently. Didn't we get a couple more moderators? Are they still around to moderate?
Thom
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:Quite.
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>
>> Are you looking to have moderators quit?
>>
>
> Well, apparently they already did.There's no guide, other than 'follow the policy, and don't moderate
> Is there a clear "How to be a moderator" guide? As someone who expects
> future news/events announcements I'll be associated with to publish, I now
> have some personal interest in making sure this backlog goes away.
anything from yourself or your employer'.
This already came up as an issue recently. Didn't we get a couple more moderators? Are they still around to moderate?
Thom
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Thom Brown <thombrown@gmail.com> wrote: > 2010/1/26 Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> >> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >> > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >> >> >> Are you looking to have moderators quit? >> >> >> > >> > Well, apparently they already did. >> >> Quite. >> >> > Is there a clear "How to be a moderator" guide? As someone who expects >> > future news/events announcements I'll be associated with to publish, I >> > now >> > have some personal interest in making sure this backlog goes away. >> >> There's no guide, other than 'follow the policy, and don't moderate >> anything from yourself or your employer'. >> > > This already came up as an issue recently. Didn't we get a couple more > moderators? Yes. > Are they still around to moderate? Apparently not :-(. This is exactly what has happened numerous times before :-(. -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
2010/1/26 Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org>
Do you need another volunteer? And maybe the list need pruning a bit to gauge the number of active moderators.
Thom
Yes.On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Thom Brown <thombrown@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/1/26 Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
>> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Are you looking to have moderators quit?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, apparently they already did.
>>
>> Quite.
>>
>> > Is there a clear "How to be a moderator" guide? As someone who expects
>> > future news/events announcements I'll be associated with to publish, I
>> > now
>> > have some personal interest in making sure this backlog goes away.
>>
>> There's no guide, other than 'follow the policy, and don't moderate
>> anything from yourself or your employer'.
>>
>
> This already came up as an issue recently. Didn't we get a couple more
> moderators?Apparently not :-(.
> Are they still around to moderate?
This is exactly what has happened numerous times before :-(.
Do you need another volunteer? And maybe the list need pruning a bit to gauge the number of active moderators.
Thom
Ciao Josh, Josh Berkus ha scritto: > Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think personal > harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is going to work. > I am fine with that. As a "young" moderator, I have though a few comments to do. I have been added at the end of 2009, but I am encountering some difficulties in some areas. Let me explain. For instance, I have no difficulties in judging events and moderating them. However, I found more difficult to moderate other stuff - such as news and most of all documentation. That's why I have limited myself in moderating so far only events. I think what we lack now is responsibility, possibly divided on different areas. For instance, somebody is responsible for events approval. Somebody else on more technical aspects (for instance documentation). Somebody else - with more experience on business related stuff - on professional services. And so on. I believe that if we create groups of moderators this way, and we assign responsibilities, we will improve the situation. Thanks, Gabriele -- Gabriele Bartolini - 2ndQuadrant ItaliaPostgreSQL Training, Services and Supportgabriele.bartolini@2ndQuadrant.it | www.2ndQuadrant.it
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Gabriele Bartolini <gabriele.bartolini@2ndquadrant.it> wrote: > I think what we lack now is responsibility, possibly divided on different > areas. For instance, somebody is responsible for events approval. Somebody > else on more technical aspects (for instance documentation). Somebody else - > with more experience on business related stuff - on professional services. > And so on. > > I believe that if we create groups of moderators this way, and we assign > responsibilities, we will improve the situation. Ciao Gabriele, That's what we used to have - and it really didn't make much difference :-( -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 > Can we make the list of moderators public somewhere? I think > personal harassment (by submitters) is the only way this is > going to work. Huh? Since when has personal harassment worked in an all-volunteer project? For the record, I'm a moderator, but there are times when I'm busy with other things and may not get to the moderation for a while. That's life. Harassing me won't change that. *Paying* me to moderate would be the only thing that would change things. (no, I don't want to be paid, just making a point) I'm 100% on board with getting more moderators. That's the correct answer. It would also help a lot if there was a web page that listed the current number of unmoderated things. Right now if I go to the page I have no way of knowing which items need attention, and which may have been handled by other moderators, without clicking through each and every section. That's a big inefficient time suck. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201001261106 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEAREDAAYFAktfExUACgkQvJuQZxSWSshuEgCg43AomYGpquyQJhwvNhbfdFOb Q10AoMDrTzdi5LrAJg9y6e5lUd5hpy3a =k1Kb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2010/1/26 Greg Sabino Mullane <greg@turnstep.com>: > answer. It would also help a lot if there was a web page that listed > the current number of unmoderated things. Right now if I go to the > page I have no way of knowing which items need attention, and which > may have been handled by other moderators, without clicking through > each and every section. That's a big inefficient time suck. Added to my TODO. -- Magnus HaganderMe: http://www.hagander.net/Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > I'm 100% on board with getting more moderators. That's the correct > answer. It would also help a lot if there was a web page that listed > the current number of unmoderated things. Right now if I go to the > page I have no way of knowing which items need attention, and which > may have been handled by other moderators, without clicking through > each and every section. That's a big inefficient time suck. > Whatever bot is generating these "moderation reports" going to the list seems to know exactly what work needs to be done, so it sounds like the logic is there but just not exposed on the web app. If I'm reading between the lines here correctly, the reason this whole moderation bit continues to die out is that the people who need the items approved--those hosting events--can't approve their own, so they have little incentive to get involved just to approve their competitor's announcements. And there's no single person or small group who has volunteered to be the backstop moderator(s) of last resort here, people who personally need the event pipeline to always be clear for their own purposes. Instead, the people who need the work done are not those who are doing it, which is never sustainable. You need motivation to ensure action. If the following things can be arranged: 1) I'm added as a moderator and pointed toward the app 2) It's possible for me to get a daily e-mail of pending moderation activity as a reminder 3) The list of moderators is at least exposed to the moderators, so we can improve coordination here without dragging the whole list into it every time I'd then be willing to coordinate with Gabriele so that the two of us work through the bulk of the approvals. As I suspected, the stuff he's been shy about (like the documentation updates) I can easily chew through if I just put a round of it into my daily routine. I'm sure that those of us who rely upon this news channel for business purposes can find an external "buddy" to deal with their own events to keep everyone honest and the queue empty, if it were just obvious who is actually doing the moderation work here. There seem to be an array of Gregs and Joshes available for that sort of situation so long as somebody is doing the dirty work of cleaning out the non-business related stuff out of the queue on a near daily basis. And I'm already dealing with a similar support operation with Gabriele we have to cover, we'll just roll this into there. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.com
On 26/01/2010 12:55, Thom Brown wrote: > This already came up as an issue recently. Didn't we get a couple more > moderators? Are they still around to moderate? I'd like to put myself forward as a possible moderator, if more help is needed. I went looking for the moderation guidelines on the wiki, and didn't find them - at least, searching for "moderation" didn't turn them up - was I looking in the correct place? Ray. -- Raymond O'Donnell :: Galway :: Ireland rod@iol.ie
On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 13:00 +0000, Dave Page wrote: > > Are they still around to moderate? > > Apparently not :-(. Well, if you did not add everyone who volunteered to be a moderator, we could manage moderation tasks easily. When I see something submitted new, I think "Ok, we have tons of moderators now. Let me leave it to them". Apparently everyone thinks the same, based on the result. Do you remember when *you* last moderated an item? Magnus? (I think it was 2001 when I joined www team, probably same year with you. I remember how we managed all these stuff since then.) I think we should keep the moderator list as small as possible: You, me, Josh, Robert and Magnus. Even this may be much thinking about the amount of item we are talking about. We are talking about 5 min/day. Why do we have 10+ people for that? Cheers, -- Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE Command Prompt - http://www.CommandPrompt.com devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr http://www.gunduz.org Twitter: http://twitter.com/devrimgunduz
On Wednesday, January 27, 2010, Devrim GÜNDÜZ <devrim@gunduz.org> wrote: > On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 13:00 +0000, Dave Page wrote: >> > Are they still around to moderate? >> >> Apparently not :-(. > > Well, if you did not add everyone who volunteered to be a moderator, we > could manage moderation tasks easily. When I see something submitted > new, I think "Ok, we have tons of moderators now. Let me leave it to > them". Apparently everyone thinks the same, based on the result. That is a good point. We can have more moderators but there needs to at least be a list of them somewhere. It doesn't need to be open to the public, but a least other moderators need to see it. And a small team is easier to coordinate, yes. > Do you remember when *you* last moderated an item? Magnus? I'm officially not doing moderation since quite a long time back - I have enough other tasks with the website to happily let others look at thy. That said, I moderated a couple of professional services a couple of weeks ago I you're still wondering ;) -- Magnus HaganderMe: http://www.hagander.net/Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
2010/1/27 Devrim GÜNDÜZ <devrim@gunduz.org>: > On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 13:00 +0000, Dave Page wrote: >> > Are they still around to moderate? >> >> Apparently not :-(. > > Well, if you did not add everyone who volunteered to be a moderator, we > could manage moderation tasks easily. When I see something submitted > new, I think "Ok, we have tons of moderators now. Let me leave it to > them". Apparently everyone thinks the same, based on the result. So you're suggesting the correct fix is to *not* add more moderators? The reason we've been adding new ones is because the old ones stop doing the work. I don't see how we can fix that without adding replacements. > Do you remember when *you* last moderated an item? Magnus? Yes. Last week. I moderate/manage the mirrors section which I've done consistently for probably 10 years now. I *really* hope you're not trying to suggest I don't do my bit? > (I think it was 2001 when I joined www team, probably same year with > you. I remember how we managed all these stuff since then.) I think we > should keep the moderator list as small as possible: You, me, Josh, > Robert and Magnus. Even this may be much thinking about the amount of > item we are talking about. We are talking about 5 min/day. Why do we > have 10+ people for that? Because people keep *not* moderating things, so we add new volunteers who help out for a while and then stop as well and the cycle repeats. In my case I moderate a bunch of mailing lists every day, as well as looking after the mirrors and doing occasional purges of the other stuff, and really would rather not be doing that for another 10 years because we're the only people doing the job. -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > Whatever bot is generating these "moderation reports" going to the list > seems to know exactly what work needs to be done, so it sounds like the > logic is there but just not exposed on the web app. It's a trivial script. > If I'm reading between the lines here correctly, the reason this whole > moderation bit continues to die out is that the people who need the items > approved--those hosting events--can't approve their own, so they have little > incentive to get involved just to approve their competitor's announcements. I don't think most of the moderators generally post anything of their own - and a lot of what is posted it not necessarily company-related anyway (think project announcements, doc comments etc). > And there's no single person or small group who has volunteered to be the > backstop moderator(s) of last resort here, people who personally need the > event pipeline to always be clear for their own purposes. Instead, the > people who need the work done are not those who are doing it, which is never > sustainable. You need motivation to ensure action. There are certainly people who have pledged to be 'backstops'. I can't imagine what motivation they are likely to have to keep all the queues empty though, except to contribute to the project. > If the following things can be arranged: > > 1) I'm added as a moderator and pointed toward the app > 2) It's possible for me to get a daily e-mail of pending moderation activity > as a reminder > 3) The list of moderators is at least exposed to the moderators, so we can > improve coordination here without dragging the whole list into it every time > > I'd then be willing to coordinate with Gabriele so that the two of us work > through the bulk of the approvals. With the greatest of respect, I've lost count of the number of times people (including many that are as valued as a contributor as you are) have said similar things in the past. This is why I'm so disillusioned with the whole process, and have basically run out of energy and motivation. (oh, and on #3 - we have a moderators mailing list to which moderation notices are sent as items are submitted, and we can discuss things) Here's what I'm going to do, if noone objects: - Add Greg as a moderator. - Setup the reminder email to go to the slaves list on a daily basis. - Purge old moderators who haven't contributed recently. If that fails, frankly I'm likely to give up and just remove anything that needs moderation from the website. -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
Raymond O'Donnell wrote: > I went looking for the moderation guidelines on the wiki, and didn't > find them - at least, searching for "moderation" didn't turn them up - > was I looking in the correct place? I suggest a link to the moderation guidelines wiki page be added to the moderation report. I have seen this exact question asked *many* times. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
2010/1/27 Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>: > Raymond O'Donnell wrote: > >> I went looking for the moderation guidelines on the wiki, and didn't >> find them - at least, searching for "moderation" didn't turn them up - >> was I looking in the correct place? > > I suggest a link to the moderation guidelines wiki page be added to the > moderation report. I have seen this exact question asked *many* times. To what end? The moderators all know where the policy is anyway. For users, the policy is linked from the submission pages, eg. http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/about/submitevent -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
> To what end? The moderators all know where the policy is anyway. For > users, the policy is linked from the submission pages, eg. > http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/about/submitevent We need a TOC page for the moderators. There's actually 3 policies which apply, and you can't find them if you don't know what they're named. Will fix. --Josh
Dave Page wrote: > To what end? The moderators all know where the policy is anyway. For > users, the policy is linked from the submission pages, eg. > http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/about/submitevent > I know I never found http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Policies on my own before this link led me to it, and I only reached the point where it's mentioned after signing in and creating an event. I don't know that it needs to be on the moderation nag page for the reasons you mention, I think it could use a bit better visibility on that area of the site though. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.com
Dave Page wrote: > I don't think most of the moderators generally post anything of their > own - and a lot of what is posted it not necessarily company-related > anyway (think project announcements, doc comments etc). > That's what I was suggesting is the crux of the problem. If you have moderators who ultimately have no strong personal interest in making sure the news is caught up, so that their own additions will then show up in a timely way, it's not really surprising that the work doesn't get done all the time. Since I do have things of my own I'd like to see posted, from training to community events like the Hot Standby User's Group session we had this month, if I have to keep clearing out the project and doc stuff to make that all flow I'll do that. And you don't have to imagine what my motivation is--I just told you. Our esteemed other Greg made an upstream comment about how paying people to moderate would improve things. I feel like everyone who is advertising training classes through the events page is getting paid, and therefore should be volunteering something to offset what they're getting out of that community resource. I'd rather be part of the group of companies that do just that, rather than be someone who benefits from this service but doesn't do anything to contribute to its maintenance. Probably better not to dwell on examples of that behavior already going on here. > With the greatest of respect, I've lost count of the number of times > people (including many that are as valued as a contributor as you are) > have said similar things in the past. Obviously unexpected things happen. What I will promise you is that if my situation changes, or for some reason realize I'm going to drop out of doing moderation work for a while, I will announce that and get myself removed from the list. I don't want to become part of Devrim's list of ineffective moderators who just complicate the process. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support greg@2ndQuadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.com