Thread: merging advocacy and "overview"
I've been looking at how to move the content from advocacy.postgresql.org into
the main www site. The central idea is that we want to maintain a space for
new users / people who are just investigating postgresql, and one area for
everyday users of postgresql. While there is certainly room for overlap in
regards to content the two groups might be interested in, I think this fits
in fairly well with how things have been laid out in the past. I am current
leaning toward making a new menu item called "advocacy" and renaming the
overview/about section to "community". With that here is how I see the
content breaking down into those two sections:
advocacy/
generalabout{a}
features{u}
limitations{u}
shorthistory{a}
members{a}
corporate{a}
advantages{a}
case studies{a}
requestinfo{a}
presskit{u}
license{a}
community/
users{ex}
store{ex}
donate{ex}
books{u}
related projects{u}
interfacing to postgresql{u}
[docs]
[support]
key:
{a} = comes from advocacy site
{u} = comes from users lounge
{ex} = links to external site
[] = internal link
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert,
> I am current leaning toward making a new menu item called "advocacy"
> and renaming the overview/about section to "community". With that here is
> how I see the content breaking down into those two sections:
I think this is overall a very good idea. However, I think it should be
called "about" and not "advocacy". "about" is a web industry convention, and
new people know to automatically go to "about" for stuff like press links,
supporters, contact info, etc.
Some comments below.
> members{a}
Doesn't this duplicate the developer site portion?
> corporate{a}
We'll need to come up with some rules on who can appear here. My thoughts:
1) Anyone who sponsors a full-time or 1/2 time developer;
2) Anyone who has sponsored a significant feature in the last 3 versions.
3) Anyone who contributed/runs an add-in project in recent use.
> advantages{a}
> case studies{a}
> requestinfo{a}
Definitely keep this. I'll want to revise the form, but I currently get 5-10
e-mails a day. It's been very useful.
> presskit{u}
Which means I need to work on a general, non-version-specific presskit, eh?
Give me some time after 8.0.
> license{a}
>
> community/
> users{ex}
What is this?
> store{ex}
> donate{ex}
> books{u}
> related projects{u}
> interfacing to postgresql{u}
> [docs]
> [support]
Hmmm ... won't documentation be a top-level category?
--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
On Thursday 02 December 2004 01:37, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > I am current leaning toward making a new menu item called "advocacy"
> > and renaming the overview/about section to "community". With that here
> > is how I see the content breaking down into those two sections:
>
> I think this is overall a very good idea. However, I think it should be
> called "about" and not "advocacy". "about" is a web industry convention,
> and new people know to automatically go to "about" for stuff like press
> links, supporters, contact info, etc.
>
the only reason to go with advocacy is due to it's replacing
advocacy.postgresql.org; ie. it's a community standard vs. industry
standard.
> Some comments below.
>
> > members{a}
>
> Doesn't this duplicate the developer site portion?
>
This is the top half of http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/
as opposed to http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php
long term those two might need to be merged, but for now I think we can leave
them seperate.
> > corporate{a}
>
> We'll need to come up with some rules on who can appear here. My thoughts:
> 1) Anyone who sponsors a full-time or 1/2 time developer;
> 2) Anyone who has sponsored a significant feature in the last 3 versions.
> 3) Anyone who contributed/runs an add-in project in recent use.
yeah. one thing to keep in mind is how this will play alongside the foundation
info.
>
> > advantages{a}
> > case studies{a}
> > requestinfo{a}
>
> Definitely keep this. I'll want to revise the form, but I currently get
> 5-10 e-mails a day. It's been very useful.
>
> > presskit{u}
>
> Which means I need to work on a general, non-version-specific presskit, eh?
> Give me some time after 8.0.
Well, maybe, but for now we can link to the version specific stuff, will need
to update it with each release anyway...
>
> > license{a}
> >
> > community/
> > users{ex}
>
> What is this?
http://www.pgsql.com/user_gallery
>
> > store{ex}
> > donate{ex}
> > books{u}
> > related projects{u}
> > interfacing to postgresql{u}
> > [docs]
> > [support]
>
> Hmmm ... won't documentation be a top-level category?
Yes, but it seems critical enough to warrent a redundent link, along with
support.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
>> I am current leaning toward making a new menu item called "advocacy"
>> and renaming the overview/about section to "community". With that here is
>> how I see the content breaking down into those two sections:
>
> I think this is overall a very good idea. However, I think it should be
> called "about" and not "advocacy". "about" is a web industry convention, and
> new people know to automatically go to "about" for stuff like press links,
> supporters, contact info, etc.
>
> Some comments below.
>
>> members{a}
>
> Doesn't this duplicate the developer site portion?
>
>> corporate{a}
>
> We'll need to come up with some rules on who can appear here. My thoughts:
> 1) Anyone who sponsors a full-time or 1/2 time developer;
> 2) Anyone who has sponsored a significant feature in the last 3 versions.
Not sure if I agree with a 'time limit' on this one ... there should be
some sort of 'history' section ... if we are remembering a contribution,
it should be remembered, not 'fade out over time' ...
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>>> members{a}
>>
>>
>> Doesn't this duplicate the developer site portion?
>>
>>> corporate{a}
>>
>>
>> We'll need to come up with some rules on who can appear here. My
>> thoughts:
>> 1) Anyone who sponsors a full-time or 1/2 time developer;
>> 2) Anyone who has sponsored a significant feature in the last 3
>> versions.
>
>
> Not sure if I agree with a 'time limit' on this one ... there should
> be some sort of 'history' section ... if we are remembering a
> contribution, it should be remembered, not 'fade out over time' ...
I think Marc has an interesting point. The other issue is what about
companies who may not sponsor a ton of code but troll the mailing lists?
Or provide major services like hosting? Or secondary code like the .Net
provider?
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ:
> 7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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Attachment
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 11:57, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> >>> members{a}
> >>
> >>
> >> Doesn't this duplicate the developer site portion?
> >>
> >>> corporate{a}
> >>
> >>
> >> We'll need to come up with some rules on who can appear here. My
> >> thoughts:
> >> 1) Anyone who sponsors a full-time or 1/2 time developer;
> >> 2) Anyone who has sponsored a significant feature in the last 3
> >> versions.
> >
> >
> > Not sure if I agree with a 'time limit' on this one ... there should
> > be some sort of 'history' section ... if we are remembering a
> > contribution, it should be remembered, not 'fade out over time' ...
>
>
> I think Marc has an interesting point. The other issue is what about
> companies who may not sponsor a ton of code but troll the mailing lists?
> Or provide major services like hosting? Or secondary code like the .Net
> provider?
>
This is why we never came up with a guideline...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Marc, Robert, > > > Not sure if I agree with a 'time limit' on this one ... there should > > > be some sort of 'history' section ... if we are remembering a > > > contribution, it should be remembered, not 'fade out over time' ... Well, the main reason I wanted the 3-year limit is that I don't want to try to research what companies contributed code in 1989. I expect that we'll be pretty casual about taking companies "off for expiration" -- if we ever do. > > I think Marc has an interesting point. The other issue is what about > > companies who may not sponsor a ton of code but troll the mailing lists? No. Why would we care? Unless you have a different meaning for "troll" than I do? > > Or provide major services like hosting? Yes. > > Or secondary code like the .Net > > provider? Yes, *especially* these. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> > >>>I think Marc has an interesting point. The other issue is what about >>>companies who may not sponsor a ton of code but troll the mailing lists? >>> >>> > >No. Why would we care? Unless you have a different meaning for "troll" than >I do? > > Sorry. I use troll differently than others. I just mean someone who constantly lurks and participates. > > >>>Or provide major services like hosting? >>> >>> > >Yes. > > > >>>Or secondary code like the .Net >>>provider? >>> >>> > >Yes, *especially* these. > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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Josh, > Sorry. I use troll differently than others. I just mean someone > who constantly lurks and participates. No. We need to list contributors, companies who have given something to the project, not every company that uses PostgreSQL. There should be a different list for that .... -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Robert, > the only reason to go with advocacy is due to it's replacing > advocacy.postgresql.org; ie. it's a community standard vs. industry > standard. Sure. However, I'm more concerned about the public & press being able to find things than long-term community members, who can always ask on IRC. "About" is instantly understandable to web users; "Advocacy" is not. So, an example of "About", a la Omar: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/about/casestudies I think this works. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus said the following on 2/12/2004 12:39 PM: > Robert, > >>the only reason to go with advocacy is due to it's replacing >>advocacy.postgresql.org; ie. it's a community standard vs. industry >>standard. > > > Sure. However, I'm more concerned about the public & press being able to find > things than long-term community members, who can always ask on IRC. "About" > is instantly understandable to web users; "Advocacy" is not. > > So, an example of "About", a la Omar: > http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/about/casestudies > > I think this works. Additionally, we've already restructured and pretty much finished the whole site. And see no reason why it can't be in for the 15th of December. Omar
And where does something like General Bits fit in as a link? Does that contribution (along with advocacy stuff) rate a corporate sponsor link? Is auxilliary information equivalent to code contributions? What about advocacy work? I obviously would like to see Varlena, LLC on the corporate sponsor list, at least for the time I spend writing and publishing. --elein On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 09:18:22AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > Marc, Robert, > > > > > Not sure if I agree with a 'time limit' on this one ... there should > > > > be some sort of 'history' section ... if we are remembering a > > > > contribution, it should be remembered, not 'fade out over time' ... > > Well, the main reason I wanted the 3-year limit is that I don't want to try to > research what companies contributed code in 1989. I expect that we'll be > pretty casual about taking companies "off for expiration" -- if we ever do. > > > > I think Marc has an interesting point. The other issue is what about > > > companies who may not sponsor a ton of code but troll the mailing lists? > > No. Why would we care? Unless you have a different meaning for "troll" than > I do? > > > > Or provide major services like hosting? > > Yes. > > > > Or secondary code like the .Net > > > provider? > > Yes, *especially* these. > > -- > Josh Berkus > Aglio Database Solutions > San Francisco > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly >
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Josh Berkus wrote: > Josh, > >> Sorry. I use troll differently than others. I just mean someone >> who constantly lurks and participates. > > No. We need to list contributors, companies who have given something to the > project, not every company that uses PostgreSQL. There should be a we already have some list of companies http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ > different list for that .... > > Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet, Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia) Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 13:03, Omar Kilani wrote: > Josh Berkus said the following on 2/12/2004 12:39 PM: > > Robert, > > > >>the only reason to go with advocacy is due to it's replacing > >>advocacy.postgresql.org; ie. it's a community standard vs. industry > >>standard. > > > > > > Sure. However, I'm more concerned about the public & press being able to find > > things than long-term community members, who can always ask on IRC. "About" > > is instantly understandable to web users; "Advocacy" is not. > > > > So, an example of "About", a la Omar: > > http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/about/casestudies > > > > I think this works. > > Additionally, we've already restructured and pretty much finished the > whole site. And see no reason why it can't be in for the 15th of December. > I see a number of things that need to changed, but nothing that seems like a complete deal breaker. Omar, how long would it take you to work up some patches for the work you have done? Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Elein, Oleg, > And where does something like General Bits fit in as > a link? Does that contribution (along with advocacy stuff) > rate a corporate sponsor link? Is auxilliary information > equivalent to code contributions? What about advocacy work? > I obviously would like to see Varlena, LLC on the corporate > sponsor list, at least for the time I spend writing and > publishing. I'd list it. Documentation contributions are still contributions. The link to General Bits itself would go on the Documentation page, of course. > we already have some list of companies > http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/ Yep, and this is out-of-date and inadequate. That's what I want to fix. --Josh -- __Aglio Database Solutions_______________ Josh Berkus Consultant josh@agliodbs.com www.agliodbs.com Ph: 415-752-2500 Fax: 415-752-2387 2166 Hayes Suite 200 San Francisco, CA
Hi, Omar Kilani wrote: >> Sure. However, I'm more concerned about the public & press being able >> to find things than long-term community members, who can always ask on >> IRC. "About" is instantly understandable to web users; "Advocacy" is >> not. >> >> So, an example of "About", a la Omar: >> http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/about/casestudies >> >> I think this works. Seems like http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ is down. > Additionally, we've already restructured and pretty much finished the > whole site. And see no reason why it can't be in for the 15th of December. I see one obvious reason: hosting. http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/ still has 2-3 second page generation times. And of course there also was a discussion on "which design is better" which did not lead to any decision.
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, elein wrote: > And where does something like General Bits fit in as a link? Does that > contribution (along with advocacy stuff) rate a corporate sponsor link? > Is auxilliary information equivalent to code contributions? What about > advocacy work? I obviously would like to see Varlena, LLC on the > corporate sponsor list, at least for the time I spend writing and > publishing. I'm kinda confused, myself, about General Bits ... from one email I received, I got the impression that it was a 'subscription based service' that you provided ... can you clarify this? But, I was always under the impression that it was a 'free service' :( ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 14:07, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Elein, Oleg,
>
> > And where does something like General Bits fit in as
> > a link? Does that contribution (along with advocacy stuff)
> > rate a corporate sponsor link? Is auxilliary information
> > equivalent to code contributions? What about advocacy work?
> > I obviously would like to see Varlena, LLC on the corporate
> > sponsor list, at least for the time I spend writing and
> > publishing.
>
> I'd list it. Documentation contributions are still contributions. The link
> to General Bits itself would go on the Documentation page, of course.
>
Hmm... I wouldn't, otherwise we'll have to list every company that we
put a link on the website for. The fact that it lives at the Varlena
website means we'll be sending traffic that way already.
To me the corporate sponsor page is for the "people behind the scenes"
that make postgresql happen. Like hub and command prompt who offer
hosting/dns services, or 2nd Quadrant that donated Simon to work on
PITR, things you wouldn't know unless we told you. With Varlena, they
provide an ancillary service, much like EMS Hitech or Nusphere or
Dotgeek, that may be of interest to people in the postgresql community,
but they aren't providing community resources. Sure we want to let
people know about these things, but we shouldn't feel beholden to
them.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 14:09, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi, > > Omar Kilani wrote: > >> Sure. However, I'm more concerned about the public & press being able > >> to find things than long-term community members, who can always ask on > >> IRC. "About" is instantly understandable to web users; "Advocacy" is > >> not. > >> > >> So, an example of "About", a la Omar: > >> http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/about/casestudies > >> > >> I think this works. > > Seems like http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/ is down. odd, working ok from this side of the globe. > > > Additionally, we've already restructured and pretty much finished the > > whole site. And see no reason why it can't be in for the 15th of December. > > I see one obvious reason: hosting. http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/ still has 2-3 > second page generation times. > We'll need to address this, but I think it is doable. We should still be serving up mostly static content anyways, right? > And of course there also was a discussion on "which design is better" which did > not lead to any decision. One of the things on my list of things to be squared away, but otoh all of the designs we have seen so far are "better", so that shouldn't keep us from release. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > To me the corporate sponsor page is for the "people behind the scenes" > that make postgresql happen. Like hub and command prompt who offer > hosting/dns services, or 2nd Quadrant that donated Simon to work on > PITR, things you wouldn't know unless we told you. With Varlena, they > provide an ancillary service, much like EMS Hitech or Nusphere or > Dotgeek, that may be of interest to people in the postgresql community, > but they aren't providing community resources. Sure we want to let > people know about these things, but we shouldn't feel beholden to them. Hopefully Elein will clarify, but I don't *think* that General Bits would be classified in the same league as 'EMS' or 'Nusphere' ... if General Bits is a "for free resource", then it has as much value as techdocs, I would think ... if its a 'subscription only service', then I'd lump it in with EMS/Nusphere ... If 'for free', then she is probably a value service to the community ... IMHO ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
General Bits is my way of contributing back to the community. It is a FREE service. It contains articles and examples about PostgreSQL only. It has about two years worth of weekly issues containing one to six articles in each issue. All old issues are available and where possible translation has been done into Castellano and Portuguese. Subscriptions (donations) can be made to help offset my time. You get a few perks with that. But honestly, only a handful of people subscribe. If I were making money on this I think my request would be unreasonable. But I'm not. I'll talk numbers with anyone nosy enough to ask :-) Most people who go to General Bits never go to my main web site. The link is always published directly to the latest column. (In the spirit of sunshine, General Bits is on vacation until January however.) Because the intent of the site is to give back to the community and because it has been achieving that goal I politely disagree with Robert Treat's interpretation of GB as something not part of the community as a whole. elein On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 04:20:41PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, elein wrote: > > >And where does something like General Bits fit in as a link? Does that > >contribution (along with advocacy stuff) rate a corporate sponsor link? > >Is auxilliary information equivalent to code contributions? What about > >advocacy work? I obviously would like to see Varlena, LLC on the > >corporate sponsor list, at least for the time I spend writing and > >publishing. > > I'm kinda confused, myself, about General Bits ... from one email I > received, I got the impression that it was a 'subscription based service' > that you provided ... can you clarify this? But, I was always under the > impression that it was a 'free service' :( > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 >
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > We'll need to address this, but I think it is doable. We should still > be serving up mostly static content anyways, right? Ya, and I believe Dave is working on something as regards the generation aspect ... he got me to add an entry in DNS for some work he's doing on the pgadmin.org machine ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, elein wrote: > General Bits is my way of contributing back to the community. > It is a FREE service. It contains articles and examples > about PostgreSQL only. It has about two years worth of weekly > issues containing one to six articles in each issue. All > old issues are available and where possible translation has > been done into Castellano and Portuguese. > > Subscriptions (donations) can be made to help offset my time. > You get a few perks with that. But honestly, only a handful of > people subscribe. If I were making money on this I think my > request would be unreasonable. But I'm not. I'll talk numbers > with anyone nosy enough to ask :-) > > Most people who go to General Bits never go to my main web > site. The link is always published directly to the latest > column. (In the spirit of sunshine, General Bits is on > vacation until January however.) > > Because the intent of the site is to give back to the community > and because it has been achieving that goal I politely disagree > with Robert Treat's interpretation of GB as something not part > of the community as a whole. Have to say that I'd agree, based on the above ... I know I've used it at least once when doing research on the whole FSM stuff ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 15:40, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote:
>
> > To me the corporate sponsor page is for the "people behind the scenes"
> > that make postgresql happen. Like hub and command prompt who offer
> > hosting/dns services, or 2nd Quadrant that donated Simon to work on
> > PITR, things you wouldn't know unless we told you. With Varlena, they
> > provide an ancillary service, much like EMS Hitech or Nusphere or
> > Dotgeek, that may be of interest to people in the postgresql community,
> > but they aren't providing community resources. Sure we want to let
> > people know about these things, but we shouldn't feel beholden to them.
>
> Hopefully Elein will clarify, but I don't *think* that General Bits would
> be classified in the same league as 'EMS' or 'Nusphere' ... if General
> Bits is a "for free resource", then it has as much value as techdocs, I
> would think ...
except that techdocs is community run and controlled. if I were to start
putting up logo's all over the site directing to my personal business I
bet most people here would have an issue with that.
if its a 'subscription only service', then I'd lump it in
> with EMS/Nusphere ...
>
> If 'for free', then she is probably a value service to the community ...
> IMHO ...
>
OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the
community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a
community sponsor too ? Heck, by that token the Open Source Technology
Group ought to be listed as well, since we have software available from
both sourceforge and freshmeat, along with several important side
projects. All of these companies drive traffic to their own sites to
further their own agendas. If they want it to be a community resource,
take down all their logos and put up some blue elephant heads.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the > community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a > community sponsor too ? as long as they are a strong community sponsor ... but, ummm ... right on their front page ... "The new server will *not support PostgreSQL* so please migrate your DB to MySQL (using the mygeek area of the site) or SQLite. " seems they are a bit mysql-centric, no? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 04:12:10PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 15:40, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote:
> >
> > > To me the corporate sponsor page is for the "people behind the scenes"
> > > that make postgresql happen. Like hub and command prompt who offer
> > > hosting/dns services, or 2nd Quadrant that donated Simon to work on
> > > PITR, things you wouldn't know unless we told you. With Varlena, they
> > > provide an ancillary service, much like EMS Hitech or Nusphere or
> > > Dotgeek, that may be of interest to people in the postgresql community,
> > > but they aren't providing community resources. Sure we want to let
> > > people know about these things, but we shouldn't feel beholden to them.
> >
> > Hopefully Elein will clarify, but I don't *think* that General Bits would
> > be classified in the same league as 'EMS' or 'Nusphere' ... if General
> > Bits is a "for free resource", then it has as much value as techdocs, I
> > would think ...
>
> except that techdocs is community run and controlled. if I were to start
> putting up logo's all over the site directing to my personal business I
> bet most people here would have an issue with that.
You would begrudge me a 1.25 inch logo for bothering to write 4 or 5 pages
a week of alternative documentation in hopes of spreading understanding of PostgreSQL
as well as hosting the site? We are not so petty as a group.
I understand that you resent the fact that it is an external site at all,
however, with the traffic that goes on on www I would point out that my site
has not been down other than seasonal maintenance for years. And getting
my column site hosted with postgresql.org is prohibitively difficult and
would take all my energy that would better spent on writing things simply
and being expressive in my own weird style. Do not think I did not
and have not considered moving to postgresql.org if it would have me.
I have considered it and watched how things work and I am content in
my choice (so far) to host on my own site.
>
> if its a 'subscription only service', then I'd lump it in
> > with EMS/Nusphere ...
> >
> > If 'for free', then she is probably a value service to the community ...
> > IMHO ...
> >
>
> OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the
> community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a
> community sponsor too ? Heck, by that token the Open Source Technology
> Group ought to be listed as well, since we have software available from
> both sourceforge and freshmeat, along with several important side
> projects. All of these companies drive traffic to their own sites to
> further their own agendas. If they want it to be a community resource,
> take down all their logos and put up some blue elephant heads.
The primary goal of the column is to give back to the PostgreSQL community what
I can do best in the way I can best do it. The benefits in karma and good
will keep me going. I generally put in 8 hours, sometimes 16, sometimes 4,
per week to write what I write. From feedback I get, I understand the form of
the column is a good adjunct to formal documentation. And I only write about PostgreSQL.
The published links do not go to my main site, they go directly to
the column. And my site is not a subscription only service. Do you want
to know the total amount of monetary donations I've received over the
past 2 years I've been publishing?
Contribution is about content not logos. I think I deserve to be
on the corporate sponsor page. Obviously I have not been a fly-by-night
contributor.
============================================================
elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com
PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training
PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
=============================================================
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.
>
> Robert Treat
> --
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
>
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, elein wrote: > I understand that you resent the fact that it is an external site at > all, however, with the traffic that goes on on www I would point out > that my site has not been down other than seasonal maintenance for > years. And getting my column site hosted with postgresql.org is > prohibitively difficult and would take all my energy that would better > spent on writing things simply and being expressive in my own weird > style. Do not think I did not and have not considered moving to > postgresql.org if it would have me. I have considered it and watched how > things work and I am content in my choice (so far) to host on my own > site. Just as an FYI, I'd not be adverse to a subdomain on postgresql.org for the general bits stuff ... not sure if anyone else would be against it, mind you, but if you ever need/desire, just ask ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
elein wrote: <snip> > Because the intent of the site is to give back to the community > and because it has been achieving that goal I politely disagree > with Robert Treat's interpretation of GB as something not part > of the community as a whole. If it's any help, my opinion is that General Bits is much more a Community Resource (like Techdocs was back in the day ;-> ) than a Commercial add-on/enhancement or similar. I don't think it hurts us to add Varlena to the Commercial Sponsors type of section, because it takes a lot of time and effort to make and maintain a good, worthwhile, Community Resource like this that enhances a Community, and raises the knowledge bar for everyone. Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift > elein
Robert Treat wrote: <snip> > OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the > community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a > community sponsor too ? Heck, by that token the Open Source Technology > Group ought to be listed as well, since we have software available from > both sourceforge and freshmeat, along with several important side > projects. Interesting thought. Um, I think the distinction here is that Elein is intimately personally involved in the PostgreSQL Community and spends a lot of time and effort to further our Community *specifically*. If the people of dotgeek and OSTG were consistently doing the same, then we'd probably consider them a lot more "part of the family" than we do. Does that yardstick make sense? Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift
> -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Marc G. Fournier > Sent: 02 December 2004 20:49 > To: Robert Treat > Cc: Alexey Borzov; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] merging advocacy and "overview" > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > > > We'll need to address this, but I think it is doable. We > should still > > be serving up mostly static content anyways, right? > > Ya, and I believe Dave is working on something as regards the > generation aspect ... he got me to add an entry in DNS for > some work he's doing on the pgadmin.org machine ... Yes - I intend to run the backend database, script processing and site generation on one of my boxes (a 3GHz, 2GB system with X15 u320 RAID disks for those that are interested) which is very lightly loaded at present. Bandwidth tends to be my problem rather than processing power as I only have 2 meg - that shouldn't be a problem here though as I'll mirror the generated content to the frontend server (svr4.postgresql.org). Regards, Dave.
On December 2, 2004 04:12 pm, Robert Treat wrote: > What about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the > community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Have you looked at their site recently; they're dropping postgres
On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 03:25, Justin Clift wrote:
> Robert Treat wrote:
> <snip>
> > OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the
> > community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a
> > community sponsor too ? Heck, by that token the Open Source Technology
> > Group ought to be listed as well, since we have software available from
> > both sourceforge and freshmeat, along with several important side
> > projects.
>
> Interesting thought.
>
> Um, I think the distinction here is that Elein is intimately personally
> involved in the PostgreSQL Community and spends a lot of time and effort
> to further our Community *specifically*.
>
> If the people of dotgeek and OSTG were consistently doing the same, then
> we'd probably consider them a lot more "part of the family" than we do.
>
> Does that yardstick make sense?
>
Doesn't Adi work for OSTG? He is a regular on IRC and attended OSCon
where I saw him promoting PostgreSQL on a number of occasions.
But I think this misses the point. What contributions has Varlena LLC
made that don't go outside the realm of the those things controlled by
the PostgreSQL Community? I see no articles/content written for either
the main website or techdocs. I see no code contributions. I see no
projects that are sponsored. There is nothing there that doesn't go
directly back to Varlena. Varlena isn't the only company that operates
like this, take Kineticode for example. They provide a service to the
community free of charge, they help promote postgresql in a number of
ways, heck they even have someone who is quite chummy with the community
working for them, but I just don't think of them as a corporate sponsor,
nor do I think they need special recognition; if you use bricolage
you'll find out about them. Maybe I am just setting the bar to high, but
how far are we going to go the other way? If a company designates a
person to be a regional contact does that make them a corporate
sponsor? Or even worse, perhaps I could strike a deal with some company
to host the weekly news on the web, and in return they would get to
drive traffic to their website and get listed as a postgresql corporate
sponsor? Is this where we want things to go? One reason why I've
always insisted that if we were going to put the weekly news on the web
we would do it on a community controlled website is because I don't want
things to go there. Apparently I'm in the minority on this position
though.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 21:06, elein wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 04:12:10PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 15:40, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote:
> > >
> > > > To me the corporate sponsor page is for the "people behind the scenes"
> > > > that make postgresql happen. Like hub and command prompt who offer
> > > > hosting/dns services, or 2nd Quadrant that donated Simon to work on
> > > > PITR, things you wouldn't know unless we told you. With Varlena, they
> > > > provide an ancillary service, much like EMS Hitech or Nusphere or
> > > > Dotgeek, that may be of interest to people in the postgresql community,
> > > > but they aren't providing community resources. Sure we want to let
> > > > people know about these things, but we shouldn't feel beholden to them.
> > >
> > > Hopefully Elein will clarify, but I don't *think* that General Bits would
> > > be classified in the same league as 'EMS' or 'Nusphere' ... if General
> > > Bits is a "for free resource", then it has as much value as techdocs, I
> > > would think ...
> >
> > except that techdocs is community run and controlled. if I were to start
> > putting up logo's all over the site directing to my personal business I
> > bet most people here would have an issue with that.
>
> You would begrudge me a 1.25 inch logo for bothering to write 4 or 5 pages
> a week of alternative documentation in hopes of spreading understanding of PostgreSQL
> as well as hosting the site? We are not so petty as a group.
Wow, given how quickly you jump to personal attacks apparently we are so
petty a group. I don't think anyone here is simple enough to not realize
the advantages of driving lots of traffic directly to your companies
website, so lets not pretend otherwise, ok?
>
> I understand that you resent the fact that it is an external site at all,
Why are you trying to make this a personal thing? I don't resent
anything, your free to do what you want with your time and resources,
but don't be upset when I call a spade a spade. I've gone round about on
this type of thing with several other people too, and I'm not the only
one who has these types of concerns.
> Contribution is about content not logos. I think I deserve to be
> on the corporate sponsor page. Obviously I have not been a fly-by-night
> contributor.
>
Contribution is about giving away, no matter what the content. Some
people think my$ql is a free database too, but like general bits, it is
completely owned and controlled by a single company, and it's future
currently depends primarily on the best interests of the company before
that of the community. Now some people are ok with this type of thing,
but there are other ways to do things. Look at ecpg, one of our most
popular packages that is primarily maintained by Michael Meskes. Now he
could certainly host the package on the Credativ website and reap all
the benefits of driving traffic his way, but he doesn't do that at all.
Now there is a company that needs more recognition.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 19:39, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Robert Treat wrote:
>
> > OK, but what about dotgeek? They provide a valuable service to the
> > community by giving free webhosting with postgresql. Are they a
> > community sponsor too ?
>
> as long as they are a strong community sponsor ... but, ummm ... right on
> their front page ... "The new server will *not support PostgreSQL* so
> please migrate your DB to MySQL (using the mygeek area of the site) or
> SQLite. "
>
> seems they are a bit mysql-centric, no?
>
Hmm... guess they couldn't get enough traction to stick with postgresql.
Maybe things would have been different if we had properly recognized
them as a corporate sponsor...
By the way, nice how you glossed over the OSTG in your response. Guess
theres no point in mentioning companies like minq.se, kazak, and
aliacta, companies who all provide free tools to the community as a way
to drive traffic to their websites.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>>You would begrudge me a 1.25 inch logo for bothering to write 4 or 5 pages >>a week of alternative documentation in hopes of spreading understanding of PostgreSQL >>as well as hosting the site? We are not so petty as a group. >> >> > >Wow, given how quickly you jump to personal attacks apparently we are so >petty a group. I don't think anyone here is simple enough to not realize >the advantages of driving lots of traffic directly to your companies >website, so lets not pretend otherwise, ok? > > Woah... maybe we should just write both of these responses off as a misuderstanding :) Elein, to be fair no one is begrudging you anything. We are just trying to determine what the guidelines for things are. >>Contribution is about content not logos. I think I deserve to be >>on the corporate sponsor page. Obviously I have not been a fly-by-night >>contributor. >> >> Nobody has said yet that you won't be. However, a gentler approach may be a better way. I don't think anyone here thinks you are a fly by night contributor. >Contribution is about giving away, no matter what the content. Some >people think my$ql is a free database too, but like general bits, it is >completely owned and controlled by a single company, and it's future >currently depends primarily on the best interests of the company before >that of the community. > The above is a good point. Varlena have you thought of making General Bits a PgFoundry project. I know it sounds weird, but you could release each "file" and have a separate web page. Would seem a more community driven project at that point? I am just throwing ideas here at this point. > Now some people are ok with this type of thing, >but there are other ways to do things. Look at ecpg, one of our most >popular packages that is primarily maintained by Michael Meskes. Now he >could certainly host the package on the Credativ website and reap all >the benefits of driving traffic his way, but he doesn't do that at all. >Now there is a company that needs more recognition. > > Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > >Robert Treat > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
>Hmm... guess they couldn't get enough traction to stick with postgresql. >Maybe things would have been different if we had properly recognized >them as a corporate sponsor... > > Not likely to be honest :) There are just more mysql users than PostgreSQL users and considering they are offering free hosting... Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake >By the way, nice how you glossed over the OSTG in your response. Guess >theres no point in mentioning companies like minq.se, kazak, and >aliacta, companies who all provide free tools to the community as a way >to drive traffic to their websites. > > >Robert Treat > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
> One reason why I've >always insisted that if we were going to put the weekly news on the web >we would do it on a community controlled website is because I don't want >things to go there. Apparently I'm in the minority on this position >though. > > I don't believe you are the minority with this position. All of your points of valid and I agree with them. From Command Prompt's position, it wasn't UNTIL we started offering code back, and providing services to the community directly that we received recognition. An example is Practical PostgreSQL. That book has been online since the day it hit shelves, free for anyone to use. But it isn't the same as say donating patches to ECPG or PlPerl which gets directly injected into the community. Practical PostgreSQL is a community resource, but it is not community sponsored. This doesn't mean that someone's (like Varlena) contributions aren't welcome or appreciated but they are not PostgreSQL projects. At first this was an annoyance but as we have become more involved and seen how things worked, it makes sense. Although not all of our community giveback is controlled or directed via the community this is because some of it must maintain a commercial interest. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > >Robert Treat > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
Attachment
Robert, Josh, Elein, etc.: I do think this is important to settle. Right now, it's General Bits which sits square on the border between "contribution" and "external"; Next time it might be someone else. Sucks for Elein that it's your site we're talking about, but it helps us make some rules that we'll need again later. However, I think that we should take this over to -Advocacy. Even though this will mean a more chaotic discussion, it IS what the Advocacy list is for, and if we make decisions here without raising them there, we might as well kill that list. So I'll be laying things out for that list. > An example is Practical PostgreSQL. That book has been > online since the day it hit shelves, free for anyone to use. > But it isn't the same as say donating patches to ECPG or > PlPerl which gets directly injected into the community. > Practical PostgreSQL is a community resource, but it is > not community sponsored. On the other hand, PL/PHP is considered a "contribution" even though it is hosted at CMD's site. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 13:18, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert, Josh, Elein, etc.:
>
> I do think this is important to settle. Right now, it's General Bits which
> sits square on the border between "contribution" and "external"; Next time it
> might be someone else. Sucks for Elein that it's your site we're talking
> about, but it helps us make some rules that we'll need again later.
>
> However, I think that we should take this over to -Advocacy. Even though
> this will mean a more chaotic discussion, it IS what the Advocacy list is
> for, and if we make decisions here without raising them there, we might as
> well kill that list.
>
> So I'll be laying things out for that list.
Agreed. And none of it should effect website completion so it's best to
take it off this list.
>
> > An example is Practical PostgreSQL. That book has been
> > online since the day it hit shelves, free for anyone to use.
> > But it isn't the same as say donating patches to ECPG or
> > PlPerl which gets directly injected into the community.
> > Practical PostgreSQL is a community resource, but it is
> > not community sponsored.
>
> On the other hand, PL/PHP is considered a "contribution" even though it is
> hosted at CMD's site.
>
I've spoken with Joshua before about this and I don't really see it as a
community contribution myself. I think the only reasons others do is
because of the other things that command prompt donates that are
contributions (plperl/servers/etc..)
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL