Thread: [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
Hi everyone, This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?". It's a "No, but we can discuss a licensing model" type answer. Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -------- Original Message -------- Subject: AW: More UB-Tree patent information Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:26:05 +0200 From: "Prof. Rudolf Bayer" <bayer@informatik.tu-muenchen.de> To: "Justin Clift" <justin@postgresql.org> Dear Justin, I am personally holder of the patents. concerning your question: > Specifically wondering if it's alright to use UB-Tree's in > Open Source projects. the answer is NO, unless there is a patent agreement with me. Please let me know, what specifically the interests and business models are, then we could discuss a licensing model in line with the already existing license agreements, best regards, R. Bayer ************************************************************************* Prof. Rudolf Bayer, Ph.D. Institut fuer Informatik, Technische Universitaet Muenchen Orleansstr. 34, D-81667 Muenchen, Germany tel: ++49-89-48095 171 email: bayer@in.tum.de fax: ++49-89-48095 170 http://www3.informatik.tu-muenchen.de > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. April 2002 23:04 > An: Professor Rudolf Bayer > Cc: PostgreSQL General Mailing List > Betreff: More UB-Tree patent information > > > Hi Prof. Bayer, > > Haven't heard anything back from you regarding the patents on > UB-Tree's. Specifically wondering if it's alright to use UB-Tree's in > Open Source projects. > > On a related topic, in your paper "The Universal B-Tree for > multidimensional Indexing" > (http://mistral.in.tum.de/results/publications/TUM-I9637.pdf) you > mention a German "Patent Pending" number of "196 35 429.3", is this the > one which was approved in Europe? > > In the paper "Bulk Loading a Data Warehouse built upon a UB-Tree" > (http://mistral.in.tum.de/results/publications/FKM+00.pdf) it mentions > the Japanese Patent filed on 22nd May 2000, Application Number > 2000-149648. Is this the Japanese patent for UB-Trees which hasn't yet > been approved? > > :) > > Regards and best wishes, > > Justin Clift > > -- > "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those > who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the > first group; there was less competition there." > - Indira Gandhi >
On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use > UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?". Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple one-dimensional ones ? --------------------- Hannu
Hannu Krosing wrote: > > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use > > UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?". > > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? > > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple > one-dimensional ones ? Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly? Maybe the patent places have online info? Professor Bayer isn't being overly informative. Anyone know? :-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift > --------------------- > Hannu -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
Patents are as much designed to confuse and dissuade someone from using something as they are to patent something. Reading a patent is often harder than killing the nearest chicken, strewing it's entrails allover the yard, and then trying to make some sense of it. Justin Clift wrote: >Hannu Krosing wrote: > >>On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote: >> >>>Hi everyone, >>> >>>This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use >>>UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?". >>> >>Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? >> >>Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something >>broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple >>one-dimensional ones ? >> > >Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly? Maybe >the patent places have online info? > >Professor Bayer isn't being overly informative. > >Anyone know? > >:-) > >Regards and best wishes, > >Justin Clift > > >>--------------------- >>Hannu >> >
On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 21:55, Justin Clift wrote: > Hannu Krosing wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use > > > UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?". > > > > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? > > > > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something > > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple > > one-dimensional ones ? > > Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly? Maybe > the patent places have online info? I did a quick search at USPTO at http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html on "UB and Tree and index and database" and found among other things a US patent no. 5,826,253 on mechanism very similar to LISTEN/NOTIFY, afforded to Borland on October 20, 1998 based on application from April 19, 1996. We should be safe as already Postgres95 had them ;) when I searched for "UB and Tree and index and database and Bayer" 0 results came back. when I omitted UB and searched for "Tree and index and database and Bayer" I got 27 results, first of them on "Method and composition for improving sexual fitness" ;) the one possibly related related to our Bayer was nr 6,219,662 on "Supporting database indexes based on a generalized B-tree index" which had reference to : Rudolf Bayer, "The Universal B-Tree for Multidimensional Indexing: General Concepts", Worldwide Computing and Its Applications, International Conference, WWCA '97, Tsukuba, Japan, (Mar. 1997), pp. 198-209. and German patent 0 650 131 A1 which may be also relevant ---------------------- Hannu
> Hannu Krosing wrote: > > > > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? > > > > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something > > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple > > one-dimensional ones ? (I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions to the list ...) Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application (with external side-effects). So ideas in themselves are not patentable. Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents - you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote innovation" IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro. see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also interesting for non-europeans, of course !) -- Tycho Fruru tycho.fruru@conostix.com "Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future." - Niels Bohr
Hannu Krosing wrote: > > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ? > > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple > one-dimensional ones ? (I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions to the list ...) Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application (with external side-effects). So ideas in themselves are not patentable. Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents - you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote innovation" IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro. see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also interesting for non-europeans, of course !) -- Tycho Fruru tycho.fruru@conostix.com "Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future." - Niels Bohr