Thread: GUI Interface

Bart Butell wrote:

Is there a GUI interface to the database like Enterprise Manager for Microsoft SQL Server?

A couple of big ones are pgAdmin3 and phppgadmin

pgAdmin3 is a desktop app and looks like Enterprise Mgr.  If you are used to Enterprise mgr, it can be almost good enough, especially the Query Analyzer look-alike.  However, it has some drawbacks.  The longer you use it, the longer it takes to connect to databases each time you start up.  It says "Restoring previous settings".  On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.  Finally, it ain't great for inspecting  text columns.

phppgadmin runs on the server so you can use any browser to use it.  It really shines in its display of text columns.  Its only limitations that I've ever seen are the obvious limitations of being a web app.  I prefer pgAdmin3 over phppgadmin solely because pgadmin3 is a desktop app.

I find pgadmin3 also superior for inspecting and fiddling with stored procedures and especially triggers.

Just my $.02.

 

Thanks

 

Bart Butell

Sasquatch Engineering

email:bbutell@sasquatch-eng.com

cell: 503 703-0044

 

Bart Butell wrote:
>
> Is there a GUI interface to the database like Enterprise Manager for
> Microsoft SQL Server?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Bart Butell
>
> Sasquatch Engineering
>
> email:bbutell@sasquatch-eng.com
>
> cell: 503 703-0044
>
>
>
Your in Luck Bart,
Check out PG Lightning Admin, it was developed initially for use by MS
SQL server DBAs who could not stand pgAdmin III.  I have sent you the
full story privately.  PG Lightning Admin can administer Postgresql
databases running on any platform(Linux,Solaris,BSD,Win32 etc)

To find out more see:
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com/lightning_admin.php

We have a forum and a Mantis bug tracking system that you can check
out(all powered by Postgresql of course).
We make it a point to take customer requests and bug fixes very
seriously which you can see by browsing the forums and the bug tracking
system.

Hope this helps you out.

Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
> Sent: 12 May 2006 04:33
> To: Bart Butell
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Your in Luck Bart,
> Check out PG Lightning Admin, it was developed initially for
> use by MS SQL server DBAs who could not stand pgAdmin III.  I
> have sent you the full story privately.  PG Lightning Admin
> can administer Postgresql databases running on any
> platform(Linux,Solaris,BSD,Win32 etc)

Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?

Regards, Dave

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 12 May 2006 02:09
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

The longer you use it, the longer it takes to connect to databases each time you start up.  It says "Restoring previous settings".   

 

 

 

 On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.   

 

 

 Finally, it ain't great for inspecting  text columns.

 

Dave Page wrote:

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 12 May 2006 02:09
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

The longer you use it, the longer it takes to connect to databases each time you start up.  It says "Restoring previous settings".   

 

My database has 270+ tables.  That's probably small for where it will be in a year.  At the moment I have only a dozen or so databases per server, and four servers that I regularly connect to. I did not intentionally turn on debug logging.

 

I am considering making that behaviour optional though - I have many databases for instance, and often find myself wating a few seconds needlessly.

Yeah, it's hard to complain about seconds, but delays of that sort do upset concentration.  The problem is compounded when I have to kill it and restart it for a network hang.

 

 

 On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.   

 

That's a new one. Any other symptoms? Can you get a backtrace from a coredump?

I'll answer this in another email, I'm about to deliberately freeze my X server and won't be able to answer :)

 

 Finally, it ain't great for inspecting  text columns.

 

How so- the in-grid editor? I'm open to suggestions and feedback.

The results display in the query analyzer shows one results at one row height.  If a text column has CR's in it, such as the text of a stored procedure, or a stored XML file, you can't see anything.  There appears no way to increase the height of the displayed result, so all I see is the first line.  Ideal would be a display that sized itself to the height of the content.  Then I'd be clean out of phppgadmin.

phppgadmin has the edge here because they simply dump the result to the display and the browser sizes it.

 

Regards, Dave. 

Dave Page wrote:

 On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.   

 

The good news is I could not reproduce it.  But when it happens again I'll know who to notify.

As I recall, the problem would occur in the query analyzer.  If there was highlighted text in the top window, and you highlighted a row in the results, and then clicked into the upper window while dragging the mouse, it would freeze the X server.  It has happened much much less often lately, but it did happen just two days ago, and it always involves a click-drag situation.

Kenneth Downs schrieb:
> Dave Page wrote:
>
>>      On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only
>>     program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X
>>     server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can
>>     connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after
>>     an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.
>>
>>
>> That's a new one. Any other symptoms? Can you get a backtrace from a
>> coredump?
>>
> The good news is I could not reproduce it.  But when it happens again
> I'll know who to notify.
>
> As I recall, the problem would occur in the query analyzer.  If there
> was highlighted text in the top window, and you highlighted a row in the
> results, and then clicked into the upper window while dragging the
> mouse, it would freeze the X server.  It has happened much much less
> often lately, but it did happen just two days ago, and it always
> involves a click-drag situation.

Yes, that seems a gtk issue. You mark, then klick accidentaly into
the marked text (usually to change the mark area) and in the result
you are dragging the text to nowhere. pgadmin and X freezes in this
case. However you can login via another box and just kill pgadmin
to unfreeze. Maybe there is a problem with how drag & drop
is/isnt handled by the code? I have no idea.

Regards
Tino Wildenhain

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 12 May 2006 13:06
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

Dave Page wrote:

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 12 May 2006 02:09
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

The longer you use it, the longer it takes to connect to databases each time you start up.  It says "Restoring previous settings".   

 

My database has 270+ tables.  That's probably small for where it will be in a year.  At the moment I have only a dozen or so databases per server, and four servers that I regularly connect to. I did not intentionally turn on debug logging.

 

I am considering making that behaviour optional though - I have many databases for instance, and often find myself wating a few seconds needlessly.

How so- the in-grid editor? I'm open to suggestions and feedback.

The results display in the query analyzer shows one results at one row height.  If a text column has CR's in it, such as the text of a stored procedure, or a stored XML file, you can't see anything.  There appears no way to increase the height of the displayed result, so all I see is the first line.  Ideal would be a display that sized itself to the height of the content.  Then I'd be clean out of phppgadmin.

phppgadmin has the edge here because they simply dump the result to the display and the browser sizes it. 

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tino
> Wildenhain
> Sent: 12 May 2006 13:19
> To: Kenneth Downs
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Yes, that seems a gtk issue. You mark, then klick accidentaly
> into the marked text (usually to change the mark area) and in
> the result you are dragging the text to nowhere. pgadmin and
> X freezes in this case. However you can login via another box
> and just kill pgadmin to unfreeze. Maybe there is a problem
> with how drag & drop is/isnt handled by the code? I have no idea.

It's possible - drag 'n' drop is entirely handled by the Styled Text
Control from wxWidgets rather than pgAdmin though, so it should be
possible to reproduce it in other STC's in the app - for example, the
function defintion on the Function dialogue. I'd be interested if this
is possible as it should then be fairly easy to whip up a test case for
the wx guys to look at.

Regards, Dave

Dave Page wrote:
> Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
>
> Regards, Dave
>
>
Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.  I would guess that
more regular people (NON FOSS developers) access Postgresql from a win32
Desktop not a Unix one.
When Linux gets above 20% it might make sense to make applications for
it, or if there was a thriving  RAD IDE like Delphi.  Mono is shaping up
and so is Lazarus, but
they  are not there yet, and WXwidgets/Python etc is not productive at
all, and Java is slow.
By the way PGLA actually works OK with the latest version of WINE so it
can run on Linux, just not natively.

I like many people dual boot Linux and I can tell you I spend most of my
time in win32 because applications I need don't exist for Linux.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Kenneth Downs wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>>     [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] *On Behalf Of
>>     *Kenneth Downs
>>     *Sent:* 12 May 2006 02:09
>>     *To:* pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>>     *Subject:* Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>>     The longer you use it, the longer it takes to connect to
>>     databases each time you start up.  It says "Restoring previous
>>     settings".
>>
>>
>> It should only take longer if the number of objects in your database
>> grows significantly, or if you've turned on debug logging. At that
>> point it is examining your database so that it can rebuild the
>> treeview to roughly the state that it was when you last used it.
> My database has 270+ tables.  That's probably small for where it will
> be in a year.  At the moment I have only a dozen or so databases per
> server, and four servers that I regularly connect to. I did not
> intentionally turn on debug logging.

Part of the problem is that pgAdmin III seems to preload object
properties instead of pulling them in as you need them.
I have noticed many times in pgAdmin III that when a function is edited
and saved by someone else on a different workstation I can't see those
changes until I manually
refresh the object.  When you have a ton of tables etc that
preloading/caching has to be taking up some time.

PGLA only populates the tree with the object names, and when you double
click or right click to edit, then and only then is the object data
brought back and displayed.

When Lazarus(http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/) becomes more stable I
will create a port of PGLA that will run on Linux and Mac OS X.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
> Sent: 12 May 2006 13:40
> To: Kenneth Downs; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Part of the problem is that pgAdmin III seems to preload
> object properties instead of pulling them in as you need them.
> I have noticed many times in pgAdmin III that when a function
> is edited and saved by someone else on a different
> workstation I can't see those changes until I manually
> refresh the object.  When you have a ton of tables etc that
> preloading/caching has to be taking up some time.

It does, for sure. On the other hand though, if you're connected to your
database via a slow network (working from home via modem or VPN for
example), it does mean that every click is instant rather than having to
wait for a query to execute - this is how pgAdmin I used to work, and
frustrated too many people which is why it was changed.

There's an up and downside to each design - just choose the tool that
works in the best way for you at the appropriate price for your wallet.

Regards, Dave

Tony Caduto wrote:

> Dave Page wrote:
>
>> Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
>>
>> Regards, Dave
>>
>>
>
> Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
> account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.


I guess it depends on your definition of trivial.  Linux represents 100%
of the desktops at Secure Data Software.  Therefore lightning will be
deployed in the trivial percentage of zero.

Kenneth Downs wrote:
>
>
> I guess it depends on your definition of trivial.  Linux represents
> 100% of the desktops at Secure Data Software.  Therefore lightning
> will be deployed in the trivial percentage of zero.
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
Good for you,
You can rationalize it anyway you want, but linux has like 2 to 3
percent of the world wide desktop market and Apple has the next big
chunk followed by Windows with over 90%.

I like Linux as much as the next guy, but it's primary role for now is
on the server not the desktop.

You do realize that the original poster said he was running on Windows,
so why in the heck would he run a Linux Desktop?

Enough said.......

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Dave Page wrote:
>> Part of the problem is that pgAdmin III seems to preload
>> object properties instead of pulling them in as you need them.
>> I have noticed many times in pgAdmin III that when a function
>> is edited and saved by someone else on a different
>> workstation I can't see those changes until I manually
>> refresh the object.  When you have a ton of tables etc that
>> preloading/caching has to be taking up some time.
>>
>
> It does, for sure. On the other hand though, if you're connected to your
> database via a slow network (working from home via modem or VPN for
> example), it does mean that every click is instant rather than having to
> wait for a query to execute - this is how pgAdmin I used to work, and
> frustrated too many people which is why it was changed.
>
> There's an up and downside to each design - just choose the tool that
> works in the best way for you at the appropriate price for your wallet.
>
> Regards, Dave
>
Why not have it be an option as to how it loads table info?  I've also
been looking for  a decent GUI interface for postgres, but the knowledge
that
pgadmin III will want to load all of my table data every time I use the
app is definitely prohibitive for me as our db here at work is huge.
And, seriously,
are we still living at a time when connection speed should be considered
a deciding design factor?  Yes, some people still work off of slow
connections,
but the vast majority of us who work in a professional environment most
definitely do not.

Thanks,  Erik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Jones [mailto:erik@myemma.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 15:09
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Why not have it be an option as to how it loads table info?

It's a fairly fundamental part of the design - such a change would be
major.

> I've also been looking for  a decent GUI interface for
> postgres, but the knowledge that pgadmin III will want to
> load all of my table data every time I use the app is
> definitely prohibitive for me as our db here at work is huge.

It doesn't load 'all of your table data' - in fact it doesn't load *any*
user table data unless you specifically tell it to.

What it does is preload chunks of *meta* data - ie. Rows from pg_class,
pg_database etc.

For example, open a Database node and it'll preload the cast, language,
schema and if appropriate, Slony cluster meta data. Open a schema node
and it'll preload the aggregates, functions , domains etc in that and
only that schema.

> And, seriously,
> are we still living at a time when connection speed should be
> considered a deciding design factor?  Yes, some people still
> work off of slow connections, but the vast majority of us who
> work in a professional environment most definitely do not.

I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK) where the
cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new laptop every month (a
significant amount of money for a small company), and yes, I regularly
use servers on the other side of the world where the round trip time
etc. would make a query-per-click interface unusable.

Regards, Dave.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Dave Page
> Sent: 12 May 2006 15:46
> To: Erik Jones
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK)
> where the cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new
> laptop every month (a significant amount of money for a small
> company), and yes, I regularly use servers on the other side
> of the world where the round trip time etc. would make a
> query-per-click interface unusable.

And I forgot to mention the remote users working from home via VPN over
a domestic ADSL line with only 256Kb/s upstream at 50:1 contention.

Regards, Dave

Kenneth Downs wrote:
> Tony Caduto wrote:
>
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>
>>> Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Regards, Dave
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
>> account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.
>
>
> I guess it depends on your definition of trivial.  Linux represents 100%
> of the desktops at Secure Data Software.  Therefore lightning will be
> deployed in the trivial percentage of zero.

Well even more then that. The market that Tony is going after he
*thinks* runs Windows, it doesn't.

The majority of people out there that run PostgreSQL are running *nix.
Yes, the majority of downloads we have received over the past two years
is Windows. However that number is completely false because all major
*nix (Including Solaris, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, MacOSX and Linux) ship with
PostgreSQL.

I would actually, probably purchase pgLightning if it ran on Linux but
sense it doesn't.... he is out of luck and frankly, so am I because it
is a good product.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 09:39, Tony Caduto wrote:
> Kenneth Downs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I guess it depends on your definition of trivial.  Linux represents
> > 100% of the desktops at Secure Data Software.  Therefore lightning
> > will be deployed in the trivial percentage of zero.
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> >
> Good for you,
> You can rationalize it anyway you want, but linux has like 2 to 3
> percent of the world wide desktop market and Apple has the next big
> chunk followed by Windows with over 90%.

This is true for generic desktops, but that's not your actual market.
Your market is desktops that need to access a PostgreSQL database, which
is a subset of the overall desktop market.

In this case, I'd be willing to bet that there are easily as many linux
desktops accessing PostgreSQL servers as there are Windows desktops, and
that the Mac comes in a distant third to either of them.

Where I work, we have about 30 developers who access PostgreSQL at
various times, and about 8 or so Windows users, and 2 Mac users.

At my last company, the numbers were pretty similar.  We bought about 30
licenses for EMS PostgreSQL manager, and about 10 of those were for the
windows version.

> I like Linux as much as the next guy, but it's primary role for now is
> on the server not the desktop.

Uh, I think your thinking in the past.  Linux's role on the desktop is
slowly growing, not shrinking.  Most startups have a fair percentage of
desktops running linux nowadays.

This thread reminds me of an interesting conversation I had in my last
job.  We had a CIO who was enamored of Microsoft's products.  He was
trying to convert all our development to the .net platform.  During a
meeting with some junior sales sheeple from MS, I brought up the point
that many of their fancy features didn't work without IE.  The sales
person pointed out that 98% of the market was running IE.  I pointed out
that our biggest customer, Boeing Engineering, had about 40,000 linux /
unix on desktops.  He looked me in the eye and said "Bullshit!"  He
honestly thought I was lying to him.  I pointed out that our second
largest customer was Martin Marietta, and that they had well over 10,000
linux /unix desktops.  He would NOT believe me.  I had to walk him over
to our sales people and have them repeat what I'd already told him.

My point is that what my mother runs as an OS doesn't really matter.
It's what your potential customers run as an OS that matters, and that
is NOT as nearly cut and dried as you might think it is.

>> And, seriously,
>> are we still living at a time when connection speed should be
>> considered a deciding design factor?  Yes, some people still
>> work off of slow connections, but the vast majority of us who
>> work in a professional environment most definitely do not.
>
> I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK) where the
> cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new laptop every month (a
> significant amount of money for a small company), and yes, I regularly
> use servers on the other side of the world where the round trip time
> etc. would make a query-per-click interface unusable.

Not to mention the large community of users within countries with slim
bandwidth such as Chile, Brazil and Turkey.

Also lets not forget Transatlantic lines, or countries where bandwidth
is great "Within" the country but the country uses sattelite to get to
the rest of the world.

Joshua D. Drake

P.S. My uncle lives in the U.k. it is damn spendy.


>
> Regards, Dave.
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Dave Page wrote:
> I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK) where the
> cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new laptop every month (a
> significant amount of money for a small company), and yes, I regularly
> use servers on the other side of the world where the round trip time
> etc. would make a query-per-click interface unusable.
>
>
So you are saying the UK does not have cable or DSL based broadband?

Leased T1s etc are very costly in the US also, and no one would have one
at home unless their company paid for it, and it would have to
be a major corporation to pay for that type of leased line.
Most companies here will cover the cost of a cable or DSL connection
and  that is very fast for one user to connect to the net.

Anyway, if in general you where using  a slow connection such as a 56k
line wouldn't it make a lot of sense to work on a local copy of the
database?

When you are working in a LAN environment the pre-loading that pgAdmin
III does is kind of a pain in the you know what.  I had MS SQL DBAs
notice the preloading/caching right away and they hated it.
It really sucks for the function editor as after you open the function
for the first time it continues to use the cached copy until you refresh
or save it again.  Joe DBA down the hall in some other cube makes a
change to a function and with pgAdmin III you won't know about it until
you manually refresh the function, opening it will cause it to use the
last cached copy and you then go about your business and when you save
it you wipe out the changes made by DBA #2 .  In a perfect situation you
would not be doing things like this on a production server, but it still
happens.  You should at least change this behavior for the function
editor as it makes no sense to be caching the functions ddl.

All I can say is that if you are used to working with the tools that
come with commercial DBs they do not behave anything like pgAdmin III
and you end up cursing everything about
pgAdmin III.  If you are not used to anything else pgAdmin III is great
and thats because you don't know what you are missing.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Dave Page wrote:
>> query-per-click interface unusable.
>>
>
> And I forgot to mention the remote users working from home via VPN over
> a domestic ADSL line with only 256Kb/s upstream at 50:1 contention.
>
> Regards, Dave
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
>                http://archives.postgresql.org
>
>
That's still faster than a 56k modem.
I use PGLA from home over a VPN via a cable modem which gets 256k upload
speeds and when I load a function directly
it loads very fast, and the main object trees load very fast.  It only
slows down a bit when you save the function back to the server and
it's not that much.  Downloads on cable and DSL are fast, it's only the
uploads where you  see any kind of slowdown.
In this day and age the load as you need it works much better overall.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 16:51
> To: Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Dave Page wrote:
> > I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK)
> where the
> > cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new laptop every month (a
> > significant amount of money for a small company), and yes,
> I regularly
> > use servers on the other side of the world where the round
> trip time
> > etc. would make a query-per-click interface unusable.
> >
> >
> So you are saying the UK does not have cable or DSL based broadband?

No, I'm saying that a leased line is very expensive. FWIW, SDSL is still
far from being widely available, and DSL only has 256Kb/sec upstream
speed. Domestic DSL lines are generally contended at 50:1 so actually
getting 256Kb/sec upstream, is very unlikely.

> Anyway, if in general you where using  a slow connection such
> as a 56k line wouldn't it make a lot of sense to work on a
> local copy of the database?

Not if it's of any real size.

> When you are working in a LAN environment the pre-loading
> that pgAdmin III does is kind of a pain in the you know what.

OK, now I know you're just trying to slag off pgAdmin. My SQL Server's
here are *significantly* more powerful than my PostgreSQL servers, yet
pgAdmin is far more responsive then Enterprise Manager.

>  I had MS SQL DBAs notice the preloading/caching right away
> and they hated it.
> It really sucks for the function editor as after you open the
> function for the first time it continues to use the cached
> copy until you refresh or save it again.  Joe DBA down the
> hall in some other cube makes a change to a function and with
> pgAdmin III you won't know about it until you manually
> refresh the function, opening it will cause it to use the
> last cached copy and you then go about your business and when
> you save it you wipe out the changes made by DBA #2 .  In a
> perfect situation you would not be doing things like this on
> a production server, but it still happens.  You should at
> least change this behavior for the function editor as it
> makes no sense to be caching the functions ddl.

It is on my todo for the next release. Note that even that still doesn't
protect the user from concurrent edit conflicts.

> All I can say is that if you are used to working with the
> tools that come with commercial DBs they do not behave
> anything like pgAdmin III and you end up cursing everything
> about pgAdmin III.  If you are not used to anything else
> pgAdmin III is great and thats because you don't know what
> you are missing.

I've used Enterprise Manager since before I started with pgAdmin II and
I still curse it to this day.

Regards, Dave.

>
> In this case, I'd be willing to bet that there are easily as many linux
> desktops accessing PostgreSQL servers as there are Windows desktops, and
> that the Mac comes in a distant third to either of them.

[snip]

I agree with everything you had to say Scott, but just FYI I think the
Mac, distant third argument is not as distant as you think.

I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers that
are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
choice is MacOSX.

I found it interesting because I don't particularly like MacOSX. It
seems entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for me.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Well even more then that. The market that Tony is going after he
> *thinks* runs Windows, it doesn't.
>
> The majority of people out there that run PostgreSQL are running *nix.
> Yes, the majority of downloads we have received over the past two
> years is Windows. However that number is completely false because all
> major *nix (Including Solaris, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, MacOSX and Linux)
> ship with PostgreSQL.
>
> I would actually, probably purchase pgLightning if it ran on Linux but
> sense it doesn't.... he is out of luck and frankly, so am I because it
> is a good product.
>
>

That's not exactly true :-)
The market I am going after are those that run windows on the desktop
and access Postgresql running on any server platform.

I would still argue that the vast majority of people access their
Postgresql servers from a Windows Desktop, not a Unix one.
Sure the majority of the people that use this list may run a Linux
Desktop, but not everyone that uses Postgresql uses this mailing list.

I would agree that most production Postgresql servers are running on
some form of Unix, just because the server is on Unix or whatever has no
bearing on what
desktop they are accessing it from.

It would be interesting to see what the numbers really are, maybe
someone should put up a survey and put a link to it from the main
Postgresql site.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
> Sent: 12 May 2006 17:08
> To: Joshua D. Drake; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> It would be interesting to see what the numbers really are,
> maybe someone should put up a survey and put a link to it
> from the main Postgresql site.

I'm sure I can arrange an official survey on
http://www.postgresql.org/community/

/D

Tony Caduto wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
>>
>> Regards, Dave
>>
>>
> Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
> account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.  I would guess that
> more regular people (NON FOSS developers) access Postgresql from a win32
> Desktop not a Unix one.
> When Linux gets above 20% it might make sense to make applications for
> it, or if there was a thriving  RAD IDE like Delphi.  Mono is shaping up
> and so is Lazarus, but
> they  are not there yet, and WXwidgets/Python etc is not productive at
> all, and Java is slow.
> By the way PGLA actually works OK with the latest version of WINE so it
> can run on Linux, just not natively.
>
> I like many people dual boot Linux and I can tell you I spend most of my
> time in win32 because applications I need don't exist for Linux.

Well you are the one who makes the problem by waiting other people to
write software instead of writing your software to run on more then one
system. Not a nice idea. pgadmin2 was windows only and this sucked a
lot. Now it runs everywhere and we love it.

I dont know - what exacly would I get from running windows as an
open source developer? No apropriate network tools, sucky "shell"
singe-user-session... Where is sftp/ssh natively available?

Regards
Tino

Dave Page wrote:
> I've used Enterprise Manager since before I started with pgAdmin II and
> I still curse it to this day.
>
>
>
it's all what you are used to I guess :-)
I don't like enterprise manager either, but most of the hardcore MS DBAs
use the Query Analyzer program
which is separate from the Enterprise Manager and much nicer to work with.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 11:07:32AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> It would be interesting to see what the numbers really are, maybe
> someone should put up a survey and put a link to it from the main
> Postgresql site.

I doubt you could lend any credence to the results, but there is a
poll system on the postgres website. Looking at the poll history it
looks like "what desktop do you access postgresql from" is not a
question that's been asked yet.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate.

Dave Page wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
>> Sent: 12 May 2006 17:08
>> To: Joshua D. Drake; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> It would be interesting to see what the numbers really are,
>> maybe someone should put up a survey and put a link to it
>> from the main Postgresql site.
>>
>
> I'm sure I can arrange an official survey on
> http://www.postgresql.org/community/
>
> /D
>
>
Sounds good to me.

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 17:14
> To: Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Dave Page wrote:
> > I've used Enterprise Manager since before I started with pgAdmin II
> > and I still curse it to this day.
> >
> >
> >
> it's all what you are used to I guess :-) I don't like
> enterprise manager either, but most of the hardcore MS DBAs
> use the Query Analyzer program which is separate from the
> Enterprise Manager and much nicer to work with.

Interesting - you've been complaining about the way the 'Enterprise
Manager' part compares to pgAdmin up until now, not the Query Analyser.
Out of interest, what is wrong with our Query Tool? We may well have
resolved many of the issues - for example, 1.6 will have:

- A 'Favourites' query manager
- Zero data load time through the use of a new virtual grid control.
This supercedes my blog entry about the previous speed enhancements.
- 'Quick Reports' - allow you to dump your queries and results to
XHTML/XML reports, optionally XSLT transformed using a stylesheet of
your choice.
- Auto complete in the editor

And of course, since the DBAs who prompted you to write PGLA would have
evaluated it, we've also added:

- Ability to export query results to file
- Async notification support
- Graphical Explain
- Ability to switch to a different database

Regards, Dave.

Tony Caduto wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> I work in a professional environment in a country (the UK) where the
>> cost of a 2Mb leased line could buy you a new laptop every month (a
>> significant amount of money for a small company), and yes, I regularly
>> use servers on the other side of the world where the round trip time
>> etc. would make a query-per-click interface unusable.
>>
>>
> So you are saying the UK does not have cable or DSL based broadband?

No he is saying that they are metered.

> Anyway, if in general you where using  a slow connection such as a 56k
> line wouldn't it make a lot of sense to work on a local copy of the
> database?

Sure it would make more sense, but that isn't always an option. I have
employees all over the world.. When they work on our databases (we don't
actually use pgAdminIII but the rules still apply) they have to work
remotely.

> All I can say is that if you are used to working with the tools that
> come with commercial DBs they do not behave anything like pgAdmin III
> and you end up cursing everything about
> pgAdmin III.  If you are not used to anything else pgAdmin III is great
> and thats because you don't know what you are missing.

Well that can be said of any type of software ;)

Joshua D. Drake

>
> Later,
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

A survey would be interesting. But I'm sure it would still point out
that Windows is king as far as percentage goes. Linux and Mac would
possibly be neck and neck, but I'm not sure about that. I'm just
guessing. I know lots of Ruby on Rails developers use Macs, but I
don't know how many of those use PostgreSQL. Lots of them seem to
like MySQL.

We use Mac OS X exclusively for development and deployment.

We use a variety of GUI and non-gui (psql) tools. PgAdmin and Navicat
mostly.

Thanks,

____________________________________________________________________
Brendan Duddridge | CTO | 403-277-5591 x24 |  brendan@clickspace.com

ClickSpace Interactive Inc.
Suite L100, 239 - 10th Ave. SE
Calgary, AB  T2G 0V9

http://www.clickspace.com

On May 12, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
>> Sent: 12 May 2006 17:08
>> To: Joshua D. Drake; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> It would be interesting to see what the numbers really are,
>> maybe someone should put up a survey and put a link to it
>> from the main Postgresql site.
>
> I'm sure I can arrange an official survey on
> http://www.postgresql.org/community/
>
> /D
>
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

Tino Wildenhain wrote:
> Tony Caduto wrote:
>
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>
>>> Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Regards, Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
>> account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.  I would guess that
>> more regular people (NON FOSS developers) access Postgresql from a win32
>> Desktop not a Unix one.
>> When Linux gets above 20% it might make sense to make applications for
>> it, or if there was a thriving  RAD IDE like Delphi.  Mono is shaping up
>> and so is Lazarus, but
>> they  are not there yet, and WXwidgets/Python etc is not productive at
>> all, and Java is slow.
>> By the way PGLA actually works OK with the latest version of WINE so it
>> can run on Linux, just not natively.
>>
>> I like many people dual boot Linux and I can tell you I spend most of my
>> time in win32 because applications I need don't exist for Linux.
>>
>
> Well you are the one who makes the problem by waiting other people to
> write software instead of writing your software to run on more then one
> system. Not a nice idea. pgadmin2 was windows only and this sucked a
> lot. Now it runs everywhere and we love it.
>
> I dont know - what exacly would I get from running windows as an
> open source developer? No apropriate network tools, sucky "shell"
> singe-user-session... Where is sftp/ssh natively available?
>
> Regards
> Tino
>
>
uh pgAdmin II sucked because it used ODBC and was coded in Visual Basic,
not because it ran on windows.
pgAdmin III is far superior to pgAdmin II in almost every regards and
it's not because it's cross platform.
It's because it's a far better design.

Not sure what you mean by me waiting to for other people to write software.

If your running Linux on the desktop, that's great!! but by saying I am
creating a problem because PGLA only runs on windows is extremely short
sighted.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> That's not exactly true :-)
> The market I am going after are those that run windows on the desktop
> and access Postgresql running on any server platform.
>
> I would still argue that the vast majority of people access their
> Postgresql servers from a Windows Desktop, not a Unix one.

O.k., lets say for the sake of argument you are correct. Then wouldn't
the sales of your product reflect that?

I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but honestly curious as to how
you are coming to your conclusions. I have been using PostgreSQL since
before it was PostgreSQL and except for Internet Explorer/Web access I
can tell you that most do not use Windows to manage PostgreSQL.

Will that change? Oh, probably as our native Windows port gets better
and better but right now... Meh.. I think your off your rocker :)

> Sure the majority of the people that use this list may run a Linux
> Desktop, but not everyone that uses Postgresql uses this mailing list.

True.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

> I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers that
> are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
> choice is MacOSX.

And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)

>
> I found it interesting because I don't particularly like MacOSX. It
> seems entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for me.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Dave Page wrote:
> Interesting - you've been complaining about the way the 'Enterprise
> Manager' part compares to pgAdmin up until now, not the Query Analyser.
> Out of interest, what is wrong with our Query Tool? We may well have
> resolved many of the issues - for example, 1.6 will have:
>
>
>
I don't think I every specifically  mentioned "Enterprise Manager" I
always said MS SQL DBAs  not really mentioning what program
they primarily used.

You are right pgAdmnin III is better than it was 2 years ago, I will
give you that :-)

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Not a sales pitch

And it may have been offered earlier in this string

But I have enjoyed the extra bells and whistles offered

This application is not Open Source.

I have been using it in windows to manage and manipulate a PostgreSQL
server running in Linux with limited of success.

The application is EMS PostgreSQL Manager currently $135 directly from
their site

http://www.pgsqlmanager.com/







-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:40 AM
To: Dave Page
Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

Dave Page wrote:
> Interesting - you've been complaining about the way the 'Enterprise
> Manager' part compares to pgAdmin up until now, not the Query
Analyser.
> Out of interest, what is wrong with our Query Tool? We may well have
> resolved many of the issues - for example, 1.6 will have:
>
>
>
I don't think I every specifically  mentioned "Enterprise Manager" I
always said MS SQL DBAs  not really mentioning what program
they primarily used.

You are right pgAdmnin III is better than it was 2 years ago, I will
give you that :-)

Later,

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
       choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
       match

> I have been using it in windows to manage and manipulate a PostgreSQL
> server running in Linux with limited of success.
>
> The application is EMS PostgreSQL Manager currently $135 directly from
> their site
>
> http://www.pgsqlmanager.com/

Just to complete the list of commercial products.
This link would be of help:
http://www.postgresql.org/download/commercial

Regards,

Richard

It would be great if by default postgres used NOTIFY after any schema
changes. Then, listening UIs could be aware of changes behind the scenes
without polling or manual refreshing.

-M

On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 11:39, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers that
> > are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
> > choice is MacOSX.
>
> And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
> PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)

Now now, he didn't say it was his.  Could be his mother's...

(ducks to avoid tomato thrown by Bruce...)

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but honestly curious as to
> how you are coming to your conclusions. I have been using PostgreSQL
> since before it was PostgreSQL and except for Internet Explorer/Web
> access I can tell you that most do not use Windows to manage PostgreSQL.
>
> Will that change? Oh, probably as our native Windows port gets better
> and better but right now... Meh.. I think your off your rocker :)
>
Well, let's do the survey thing and see, sure it will be unscientific,
but interesting regardless.

I am getting my conclusions from the fact that Desktop Linux  is just
not popular yet, there are few if any commercial apps being written for it.
Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming from
a commercial system is more than likely used to running the admin tools on
windows.
Before there was even a windows version many many people accessed
Postgresql from windows, I know I did.
Also a lot of people think what they think from this mailing list and I
can tell you there are many many causual users who have never used this list

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers
>> that are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop
>> of choice is MacOSX.
>
> And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
> PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)
>
>
hate to break this to you but the developers should not even be
considered in all this as they are the very smallest subset of users.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> I am getting my conclusions from the fact that Desktop Linux  is just
> not popular yet, there are few if any commercial apps being written for it.

Uhh... because they are not needed :)

I run my entire business one Linux. My business is no different then any
other small business. I need:

A MS compatible Office Suite: Done. OO

A Good PDF reader: Done. Evince and Acroread

A Decent Email client: Done. Thunderbird (Evolution if you need to
connect to exchange or groupwise)

The ability to create PDFs. Done, natively with just about any tool that
can print ;)

The ability to code with tools and language of choice... This one is
obvious.

Accounting Package.. O.k. this one sits on my wife's machine and it is
quickbooks with Windows. So yes one thing is missing. And no... SQL
Ledger is not acceptable.

> Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming from
> a commercial system is more than likely used to running the admin tools on
> windows.

I know many Oracle people who would disagree with you.

> Also a lot of people think what they think from this mailing list and I
> can tell you there are many many causual users who have never used this
> list

Well I am certain that is true... I used PostgreSQL years before I
started trolling this list with others but I still used Linux to connect ;)

Joshua D. Drake



--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Tony Caduto wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers
>>> that are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop
>>> of choice is MacOSX.
>>
>> And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
>> PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)
>>
>>
> hate to break this to you but the developers should not even be
> considered in all this as they are the very smallest subset of users.
>

Uhmmm your market *IS* developers ;)... You don't actually think my mom
needs your product do you?

Joshua D. Drake

--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

A.M. wrote:
> It would be great if by default postgres used NOTIFY after any schema
> changes. Then, listening UIs could be aware of changes behind the scenes
> without polling or manual refreshing.

That sounds like a huge misuse of resources.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> -M
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

> Uhmmm your market *IS* developers ;)... You don't actually think my
> mom needs your product do you?
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
Sorry, I meant Postgresql developers :-)  I figured you would have
figured that out since you where talking about Tom :-)

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Scott Marlowe wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 11:39, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers that
> > > are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
> > > choice is MacOSX.
> >
> > And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
> > PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)
>
> Now now, he didn't say it was his.  Could be his mother's...
>
> (ducks to avoid tomato thrown by Bruce...)

I remember he got some type of Mac laptop while he was at Greatbridge,
but when they went bust, the parent company didn't know what to do with
a Mac, so they let him keep it.  (I didn't use a laptop at the time.)
Might be the same one.

Anyway, it would make an interesting reason for choosing a Mac.  I can
see the commerical now.  :-)

I actually use a laptop running XP.  I got it for the Win32 port, and
because I use putty/ssh, Mozilla, and Gaim 99% of the time, it doesn't
matter what OS I use.  I could install a unix on it, but there seems to
be no need because all my unix work is done on my server via ssh.

--
  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 12:00:26PM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but honestly curious as to
> >how you are coming to your conclusions. I have been using
> >PostgreSQL since before it was PostgreSQL and except for Internet
> >Explorer/Web access I can tell you that most do not use Windows to
> >manage PostgreSQL.
> >
> >Will that change? Oh, probably as our native Windows port gets
> >better and better but right now... Meh.. I think your off your
> >rocker :)
> >
> Well, let's do the survey thing and see, sure it will be
> unscientific, but interesting regardless.
>
> I am getting my conclusions from the fact that Desktop Linux  is
> just  not popular yet, there are few if any commercial apps being
> written for it.

I can see how as a proprietary software developer, you can confuse the
two, but I don't see how the first thing follows from the second.  It
could simply be that the apps for Linux desktops are also FLOSS.

> Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming
> from a commercial system is more than likely used to running the
> admin tools on windows.

They may or may not be used to such things.  Most of the hardcore DBAs
I know are very big on the command line and impatient with the 'Are
you sure?  Are you really sure?  Are you really, REALLY sure?'
paradigm that infests entirely too many GUIs.

> Before there was even a windows version many many people accessed
> Postgresql from windows, I know I did.  Also a lot of people think
> what they think from this mailing list and I can tell you there are
> many many causual users who have never used this list

I should certainly hope so.  I'm really big on good user interfaces,
and that means that I don't equate "good" with "graphical."  Forcing
people to use a GUI paradigm where it doesn't work[1] frustrates them
and insults their intelligence.  "End users"[2] are not stupid,
illiterate, or unable to type on their keyboards, and they resent
being treated as though they were any or all of those things.  They do
need good, easily searchable instructions, tho :)

Cheers,
D

[1]  Where "doesn't work" depends both on the particular user and on
the problem at hand.

[2]  Anybody who first touched a computer when they were an adult,
e.g.
--
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 415 235 3778        AIM: dfetter666
                              Skype: davidfetter

Remember to vote!

> From: Tony Caduto
>
> Kenneth Downs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I guess it depends on your definition of trivial.  Linux represents
> > 100% of the desktops at Secure Data Software.  Therefore lightning
> > will be deployed in the trivial percentage of zero.
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> >
> Good for you,
> You can rationalize it anyway you want, but linux has like 2 to 3
> percent of the world wide desktop market and Apple has the next big
> chunk followed by Windows with over 90%.
>
> I like Linux as much as the next guy, but it's primary role for now is
> on the server not the desktop.
>
> You do realize that the original poster said he was running on Windows,
> so why in the heck would he run a Linux Desktop?
>
> Enough said.......
>
> --
> Tony Caduto


Z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z

Those Windows developer tools must be working really well since you have the time
to litter my inbox with all these trivial arguments. :-)

BTW who was the EXPERT that slammed java performance?

Best regards,

Jim Wilson


--
Jim Wilson
Kelco Industries
PO Box 160
Milbridge, ME 04658
207-546-7989

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I actually use a laptop running XP.  I got it for the Win32 port, and
> because I use putty/ssh, Mozilla, and Gaim 99% of the time, it doesn't
> matter what OS I use.  I could install a unix on it, but there seems to
> be no need because all my unix work is done on my server via ssh.
>
Dude, you just totally described my 'work environment' to a T!

> Z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z
>
> Those Windows developer tools must be working really well since you have the time
> to litter my inbox with all these trivial arguments. :-)
>
> BTW who was the EXPERT that slammed java performance?

No clue, but java sucks on the desktop :)

>
> Best regards,
>
> Jim Wilson
>
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 17:17
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> >
> > I'm sure I can arrange an official survey on
> > http://www.postgresql.org/community/
> >
> > /D
> >
> >
> Sounds good to me.
>

OK, 'tis done.

http://www.postgresql.org/community/

It might take an hour or so to hit the frontend servers - the impatient
can get to it immediately on wwwmaster.

/D

Jim Wilson wrote:
>
> Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
>
How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive than anything
available on
Linux at this time, though the netbeans IDE comes close, to bad Java is
slow for
almost all desktop applications.
One example is LimeWire, while it works well, it takes forever to load and
the UI seems a little sluggish compared to a native compiled application.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
> Sent: 12 May 2006 20:41
> To: Jim Wilson
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Jim Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
> >
> How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive than
> anything available on Linux at this time,

In what way is PGLA "far superior and more productive" than pgAdmin?
Sure it looks nice and pretty, and I'm sure has some nice features, but
pgAdmin almost certainly offers more features useful to a wider
audience, runs on multiple platforms, fully supports different
charactersets such as Farsi, Chinese and Japanese as well as Latin*, has
been translated into over thirty languages, can fully manage (ie.
Start/stop/examine logs etc) your servers on any platform and can manage
your Slony clusters...

Oh, and while I'm slightly annoyed, I'll ask you again to please stop
slating pgAdmin on your website in order to sell PGLA. Apart from being
a low tactic, I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually breaking UK
and probably other European advertising laws which prohibit almost all
comparison of competitor products in advertising - especially given the
way you deliberately state that PGLA includes many features not found in
other tools like pgAdmin when clearly a large percentage of them can be.


Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
>> Sent: 12 May 2006 20:41
>> To: Jim Wilson
>> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> Jim Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
>>>
>>>
>> How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive than
>> anything available on Linux at this time,
>>
>
> In what way is PGLA "far superior and more productive" than pgAdmin?
> Sure it looks nice and pretty, and I'm sure has some nice features, but
> pgAdmin almost certainly offers more features useful to a wider
> audience, runs on multiple platforms, fully supports different
> charactersets such as Farsi, Chinese and Japanese as well as Latin*, has
> been translated into over thirty languages, can fully manage (ie.
> Start/stop/examine logs etc) your servers on any platform and can manage
> your Slony clusters...
>
> Oh, and while I'm slightly annoyed, I'll ask you again to please stop
> slating pgAdmin on your website in order to sell PGLA. Apart from being
> a low tactic, I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually breaking UK
> and probably other European advertising laws which prohibit almost all
> comparison of competitor products in advertising - especially given the
> way you deliberately state that PGLA includes many features not found in
> other tools like pgAdmin when clearly a large percentage of them can be.
>
>
> Regards, Dave.
>
>
Dave calm down....take a chill pill...
 who said anything about pgAdmin III?  Jim was referring to the tools
used to build PGLA, not PGLA itself :-)  At least that is what I thought
he was blabbing about.
In this particular case the part that is far superior and more
productive is Borland Delphi and even Visual Studio .net

What the heck is slating?  All I am doing is saying there is a
alternative, nothing wrong with that :-)


--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Dave Page
> Sent: 12 May 2006 21:07
> To: Tony Caduto; Jim Wilson
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> > [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
> > Sent: 12 May 2006 20:41
> > To: Jim Wilson
> > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
> >
> > Jim Wilson wrote:
> > >
> > > Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
> > >
> > How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive
> than anything
> > available on Linux at this time,
>
> In what way is PGLA "far superior and more productive" than pgAdmin?

Tony,

It's just been pointed out to me that you may have meant the developer
tools we use to write our respective products - if so I apologise for
misreading that, and please disregard my question above.

Regards, Dave.

Tony Caduto wrote:
> Jim Wilson wrote:
>>
>> Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
> How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive than anything
> available on
> Linux at this time, though the netbeans IDE comes close, to bad Java is
> slow for
> almost all desktop applications.
> One example is LimeWire, while it works well, it takes forever to load and
> the UI seems a little sluggish compared to a native compiled application.
>

You live in an interesting world... meanwhile, I'm here in the real
world, using Eclipse - the best IDE I've ever used to develop java
applications.  Oh, wait, Eclipse is written in Java?  I didn't think it
was possible to write good apps in java?  Certainly better than visual
studio (and yes, I have to use both - eclipse is a far better IDE in my
opinion).  Oh, and I can run eclipse on my linux desktop as well as my
windows desktop?  Thats just cool.  Oh, and my next machine?  Definitely
a Mac.  And it woks there too - just like all of my SWT apps do.

I will admit, it is rather easy to write slow java swing applications
There are a lot of poor ones out there.   Its a shame that Sun botched
swing so badly, and have never repaired it properly.  Its not impossible
to write fast, responsive apps in swing, it just takes skilled
developers.  And its a pain.

However, now with the emergence of SWT and modern JVM's - there is no
reason for your java GUI to be any slower than anything else.  The only
excuse for a slow java app these days is the quality of the code that it
is built with.  And you can write a bad, slow app in any language.

Oh, and to get back on topic a bit more - DBVisualizer is also a nice
database GUI (written in Java, by the way) that is very fast,
responsive, and cross platform.

http://www.minq.se/products/dbvis/

Its also rather handy if you have to deal with 5 different types of
databases on a daily basis, since it handles them all.

Dan


--
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/

I have nothing to offer this highly entertaining thread except I'm
firmly with the camp that thinks getting Unix/Linux developers on
board is the best way to promote a PostgreSQL GUI for all platforms.
Still hoping to do that someday soon.

But mainly I just want to thank the other posters for "junior sales
sheeple from MS" and "I don't particularly like MacOSX. It seems
entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for me." Almost spewed
Diet Coke on the monitor. I never even heard "sheeple" before, but I
can see I'm just behind the times because it is already in Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple).


John DeSoi, Ph.D.
http://pgedit.com/
Power Tools for PostgreSQL

Dan Armbrust wrote:
> You live in an interesting world... meanwhile, I'm here in the real
> world, using Eclipse - the best IDE I've ever used to develop java
> applications.
Good for you :-) Keep on thinking that....
Eclipse is nice, but after using both (eclipse and netbeans) I just
liked net beans better, mostly because the included forms designer is
really nice
and pretty similar to the one used in Delphi.  Delphi still beats them
both hands down for developing desktop applications(Windows)
On linux you don't really have any other choice except for MonoDevelop
and that is so buggy it's not funny.
Oh there is also Lazarus and that is also pretty nice, but can be unstable.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tony Caduto
>> Sent: 12 May 2006 20:41
>> To: Jim Wilson
>> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> Jim Wilson wrote:
>>> Those Windows developer tools must be working really well
>>>
>> How right you are Jim, far superior and more productive than
>> anything available on Linux at this time,
>
> In what way is PGLA "far superior and more productive" than pgAdmin?

O.k. lets back up a little :) Remember that this is all opinion driven.
There is no right answer.


> Oh, and while I'm slightly annoyed, I'll ask you again to please stop
> slating pgAdmin on your website in order to sell PGLA.

Although it certainly isn't fair or ethical if he negatively impacts
pgAdmin there should be any problem of have a featture comparison matrix
or something should there?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd@commandprompt.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 21:45
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Tony Caduto; Jim Wilson; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Although it certainly isn't fair or ethical if he negatively
> impacts pgAdmin there should be any problem of have a
> featture comparison matrix or something should there?

I have no problem with that at all, as long as it is fairly and
accurately done.

Regards, Dave

Dan Armbrust wrote:
> Tony Caduto wrote:
>> Jim Wilson wrote:
>>>

> Oh, and to get back on topic a bit more - DBVisualizer is also a nice
> database GUI (written in Java, by the way) that is very fast,
> responsive, and cross platform.
>
> http://www.minq.se/products/dbvis/

All due respect but I am running a Dual-Core AMD64 3800+ with 2 gig of ram.

Java is slow on the desktop. Yes, DBvisualizer is a nice product and so
is Eclipse but compared to even bytecode language such as
Python/WxWindows... Java is very, very slow. Especially during screen
draws (and yes I run accelerated Video).

That is not to say it is not acceptable but the fact that it is slow on
my level of machine speaks volumes.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> Its also rather handy if you have to deal with 5 different types of
> databases on a daily basis, since it handles them all.
>
> Dan
>
>


--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Tony Caduto wrote:
> Dan Armbrust wrote:
>> You live in an interesting world... meanwhile, I'm here in the real
>> world, using Eclipse - the best IDE I've ever used to develop java
>> applications.
> Good for you :-) Keep on thinking that....
> Eclipse is nice, but after using both (eclipse and netbeans) I just
> liked net beans better, mostly because the included forms designer is
> really nice
> and pretty similar to the one used in Delphi.  Delphi still beats them
> both hands down for developing desktop applications(Windows)
> On linux you don't really have any other choice except for MonoDevelop
> and that is so buggy it's not funny.
> Oh there is also Lazarus and that is also pretty nice, but can be unstable.
>

We don't?

Glade
WxDesigner
QT (I forget the name of their forms product)

Oh and if we are sadistic: Kylix.

Joshua D. Drake

--

            === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
      Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
      Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                     http://www.commandprompt.com/

Dave Page wrote:

> http://www.postgresql.org/community/

Okay, so I voted and I see Linux leads the pack 16 of 29.  I return a
few moments later and Linux leads the pack 13 to 24.  What gives??

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both.  - Benjamin Franklin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Geoffrey
> Sent: 12 May 2006 22:18
> To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Dave Page wrote:
>
> > http://www.postgresql.org/community/
>
> Okay, so I voted and I see Linux leads the pack 16 of 29.  I
> return a few moments later and Linux leads the pack 13 to 24.
>  What gives??

You hit a different server which synced up a little earlier than the
first server. If you want the correct, to the minute result, look on
wwwmaster.postgresql.org.

Regards, Dave.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2006 21:24
> To: Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Dave calm down....take a chill pill...
>  who said anything about pgAdmin III?  Jim was referring to
> the tools used to build PGLA, not PGLA itself :-)  At least
> that is what I thought he was blabbing about.
> In this particular case the part that is far superior and
> more productive is Borland Delphi and even Visual Studio .net

Yes, misunderstanding - please see my previous email.

> What the heck is slating?  All I am doing is saying there is
> a alternative, nothing wrong with that :-)

Slating == berating.

I think it's hard to deny with so many mentions of pgAdmin on your site,
and no mentions of any other similar product that when you say 'PGLA
does this better', or 'has all these extra features' that the intention
is that the user assume you are directly comparing to pgAdmin rather
than any other product. I wouldn't mind if it were all true, but it is
not - the list of features that are not found 'in other products'
contains many that are in pgAdmin, likewise you have at least one quote
that says something like 'everything in pgAdmin is a dialogue' which is
also untrue.

Maybe that's because you don't expect us to sue you like another company
might (and you'd be right), I don't know - perhaps you could prove me
wrong by comparing features of PGLA with Tora or EMS PostgreSQL Manager
as well for example?

Regards, Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of John DeSoi
> Sent: 12 May 2006 21:29
> To: pgsql general
> Cc: Scott Marlowe; Joshua D. Drake
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> But mainly I just want to thank the other posters for "junior
> sales sheeple from MS" and "I don't particularly like MacOSX.
> It seems entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for
> me." Almost spewed Diet Coke on the monitor. I never even
> heard "sheeple" before, but I can see I'm just behind the
> times because it is already in Wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple).

Yes, I'd like to echo that sentiment - 'sheeple' caused fits of laughter
in our office :)

/D

--
GHUM Harald Massa
persuadere et programmare
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstraße 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
-
PostgreSQL - supported by a community that does not put you on hold

Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of John DeSoi
>> Sent: 12 May 2006 21:29
>> To: pgsql general
>> Cc: Scott Marlowe; Joshua D. Drake
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> But mainly I just want to thank the other posters for "junior
>> sales sheeple from MS" and "I don't particularly like MacOSX.
>> It seems entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for
>> me." Almost spewed Diet Coke on the monitor. I never even
>> heard "sheeple" before, but I can see I'm just behind the
>> times because it is already in Wikipedia
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple).
>>
>
> Yes, I'd like to echo that sentiment - 'sheeple' caused fits of laughter
> in our office :)
>
I agree.  Considering that I've been on this list and the thread with
the most messages in that time has basically turned into an editor war
(e.g. vi vs. emacs vs. pick-your-favorite-ide), I'm glad to see at least
some humor coming out of it...

> Glade
> WxDesigner
> QT (I forget the name of their forms product)
>
> Oh and if we are sadistic: Kylix.
>
>
I hate to say it but none of the above mentioned are in the same class
as Delphi except for Kylix.
Kylix is a bear to deploy but it is still the best IDE of all the ones
you mentioned above, and the only reason Borland
does not maintain it is because it sold poorly.  It seems these days
everybody wants something for nothing.
Kylix is still great for creating server side applications such as
tcp/ip daemons and apache DSOs.
As of right now Lazarus is the better desktop choice when compared to
Kylix. And Kylix does not use WINE to create
executables, it creates totally native ELF executables.  they just used
winelib to port the IDE.

The problem with all the ones you mentioned is you have to design the
forms separately and glade is just terrible to work with.
None of them are true RAD solutions.

--
Tony Caduto
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x

On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 16:29:05 -0400,
  John DeSoi <desoi@pgedit.com> wrote:
>
> But mainly I just want to thank the other posters for "junior sales
> sheeple from MS" and "I don't particularly like MacOSX. It seems
> entirely too Charlie and the Chocolate factory for me." Almost spewed
> Diet Coke on the monitor. I never even heard "sheeple" before, but I
> can see I'm just behind the times because it is already in Wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple).

You need to read more anti-government rants. I know I ran accross "sheeple"
at least several years ago. And since it pronounces nicely and the notion
of people acting like sheep goes back a long way, I expect that term does
as well.

Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> writes:
> You need to read more anti-government rants. I know I ran accross "sheeple"
> at least several years ago. And since it pronounces nicely and the notion
> of people acting like sheep goes back a long way, I expect that term does
> as well.

Google is your friend ... a moment's searching shows the term documented
in 1984.  Macmillan seems to believe that's the first use, but it's not
clear how hard they looked.

            regards, tom lane

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto
>
> One example is LimeWire, while it works well, it takes forever to load and

Six seconds on mine.

Best regards,

Jim Wilson


--
Jim Wilson
Kelco Industries
PO Box 160
Milbridge, ME 04658
207-546-7989

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 >
 >> BTW who was the EXPERT that slammed java performance?
 >
 > No clue, but java sucks on the desktop :)
 >
No it doesn't (unless you mean when tilting your coffee mug. Hmm, no, then you would need
something that actually sucks java).

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

Dan Armbrust wrote:
> You live in an interesting world... meanwhile, I'm here in the real
> world, using Eclipse - the best IDE I've ever used to develop java
> applications.  Oh, wait, Eclipse is written in Java?  I didn't think it
> was possible to write good apps in java?  Certainly better than visual
> studio (and yes, I have to use both - eclipse is a far better IDE in my
> opinion).  Oh, and I can run eclipse on my linux desktop as well as my
> windows desktop?  Thats just cool.  Oh, and my next machine?  Definitely
> a Mac.  And it woks there too - just like all of my SWT apps do.
>
> I will admit, it is rather easy to write slow java swing applications
> There are a lot of poor ones out there.   Its a shame that Sun botched
> swing so badly, and have never repaired it properly.  Its not impossible
> to write fast, responsive apps in swing, it just takes skilled
> developers.  And its a pain.
>
> However, now with the emergence of SWT and modern JVM's - there is no
> reason for your java GUI to be any slower than anything else.  The only
> excuse for a slow java app these days is the quality of the code that it
> is built with.  And you can write a bad, slow app in any language.
>
Cool. At least one that actually knows what he's talking about and have real life
experience. I'm also using Eclipse and a slew of other Java apps. No complaints whatsoever
on performance. Not too happy about all C/C++ apps that crash on illegal memory access though...

+1 (or 10) for Java on the desktop.

I will not spend time on a war that cannot be fought in this forum. Just wanted to air my
opinion this once :-)

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
Sent: Sat 5/13/2006 2:57 PM
To: Dave Page
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

> It's not that derogatory Dave,
> All that page mentions is the weird quirks on win32, I am sure you know
> what those are, i.e. windows suddenly lose there size and position info
> and appear in the upper left corner of the screen in a semi minimized
> state, there are others.

I would hardly call those cross-platform quirks. More like unreported bugs. If you or anyone else can provide more
detailsI'm sure we can look at them. 

> Fix the problems and I will remove the thing about the quirks.  The
> other stuff was mentioned by customers in the testimonials.

Maybe, but it's still on your site, adding to the impression that you are only comparing PGLA to pgAdmin.

How about Joshua's idea? Are you up for a creating a true and honest feature comparison between the two of us?

> And you do realize you started that whole flame fest yesterday because
> you had to chime in that 'but does it run on Linux', the guy I responded
> to had stated he was running on windows, now why would a windows user
> give one iota if a program runs on linux or not?

Iirc, you said something about managing PG installs on any platform even though the OP had said Windows. I think my
questionwas valid - and the answer that PGLA now does run under Wine is certainly a plus point for you. You also
mentionedother technologies that might allow a more native build (Lazarus was it?) - I have no idea whether or not
you'veexperimented with such things and have a linux build in the pipeline. 

My only comment that was semi-intended as a flame was in response to a message of yours that I misunderstood, and for
whichI apologised publically as soon as I realised what I had done. 

> Why don't  you just drop win32 support and leave the commercial market
> to us proprietary coders :-)  Seriously, there are now more than enough
> commercial admin tools available to support the PG windows market.

Given the lack of an IDE that I like better than VS on any of our other platforms, I can't see that happening :-)

> I would appreciate you not chiming in with 'does it run on linux?'
> If you agree to that I will make the changes on my site(testimonials)
> you desire.   I don't think the people that wrote those will be happy
> but oh well.

OK, I won't ask such questions in future - and for what it's worth, I don't object to you having testimonials from your
customers,just please make them less obviously biased against our product - I'm sure you've seen how other ads deal
withit, speaking of 'leading competitors' etc. 

> oh, and I had PGLA working in basic form a week after Andreas's little
> comment to me, it's just been polished since then :-)

Which speaks well of your tools and your mastery of them. It's hard to say good for you without it sounding like I'm
takingthe p**s, but it is sincere! :-) 

Regards, Dave.

On Sat, 2006-05-13 at 17:27 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>
> > Why don't  you just drop win32 support and leave the commercial
> market
> > to us proprietary coders :-)  Seriously, there are now more than
> enough
> > commercial admin tools available to support the PG windows market.

I can't find the original mail which contained this, but I have to say
this would be a monstrous step backwards.

For me, cross-platform is the future for desktop apps. People want to be
able to run the application they want to run and not be constrained by
the OS they're running on. If I'm working at a client's site and all
they have is one OS, I want to be able to use the tools I'm comfortable
with regardless of my preferred OS.

That's why I use OO, Firefox, Gaim, jedit etc. OS is irrelevant and will
before long become a preference rather than being dictated by the
application you want to run.

Just my opinion. :)

--

Russ

Tino Wildenhain wrote:
> Kenneth Downs schrieb:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>>      On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only
>>>     program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X
>>>     server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can
>>>     connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after
>>>     an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.
>>> That's a new one. Any other symptoms? Can you get a backtrace from a
>>> coredump?
>>>
>> The good news is I could not reproduce it.  But when it happens again
>> I'll know who to notify.
>>
>> As I recall, the problem would occur in the query analyzer.  If there
>> was highlighted text in the top window, and you highlighted a row in
>> the results, and then clicked into the upper window while dragging the
>> mouse, it would freeze the X server.  It has happened much much less
>> often lately, but it did happen just two days ago, and it always
>> involves a click-drag situation.
>
> Yes, that seems a gtk issue. You mark, then klick accidentaly into
> the marked text (usually to change the mark area) and in the result
> you are dragging the text to nowhere. pgadmin and X freezes in this
> case. However you can login via another box and just kill pgadmin
> to unfreeze. Maybe there is a problem with how drag & drop
> is/isnt handled by the code? I have no idea.
It only happens in pgAdmin III, though, so it must be some strange
interaction between wxWindows and GTK. I believe that the window manager
is part of the problem too, because I've used KDE (together with kwin)
for the last few years, and while it had this freezing-problem
initially, it went away with some update. I believed that a wx or
pgadmin update solved this, but now I'm using Gnome (together with
metacity), and the problem is back... :-(

However, I figured out that if you press ALT-<key> with <key> being the
shortcut for some menu _directly_ after the freeze, the menu opens, and
the mouse pointer is restored back to it's normal shape... It won't work
if you click around after X freezes - I guess pgadminIII has to still
have the focus for this to work...

greetings, Florian Pflug

Florian G. Pflug wrote:

> Tino Wildenhain wrote:
>
>> Kenneth Downs schrieb:
>>
>>> Dave Page wrote:
>>>
>>>>      On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only
>>>>     program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X
>>>>     server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can
>>>>     connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after
>>>>     an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.
>>>> That's a new one. Any other symptoms? Can you get a backtrace from
>>>> a coredump?
>>>>
>>> The good news is I could not reproduce it.  But when it happens
>>> again I'll know who to notify.
>>>
>>> As I recall, the problem would occur in the query analyzer.  If
>>> there was highlighted text in the top window, and you highlighted a
>>> row in the results, and then clicked into the upper window while
>>> dragging the mouse, it would freeze the X server.  It has happened
>>> much much less often lately, but it did happen just two days ago,
>>> and it always involves a click-drag situation.
>>
>>
>> Yes, that seems a gtk issue. You mark, then klick accidentaly into
>> the marked text (usually to change the mark area) and in the result
>> you are dragging the text to nowhere. pgadmin and X freezes in this
>> case. However you can login via another box and just kill pgadmin
>> to unfreeze. Maybe there is a problem with how drag & drop
>> is/isnt handled by the code? I have no idea.
>
> It only happens in pgAdmin III, though, so it must be some strange
> interaction between wxWindows and GTK. I believe that the window manager
> is part of the problem too, because I've used KDE (together with kwin)
> for the last few years, and while it had this freezing-problem
> initially, it went away with some update. I believed that a wx or
> pgadmin update solved this, but now I'm using Gnome (together with
> metacity), and the problem is back... :-(
>
> However, I figured out that if you press ALT-<key> with <key> being the
> shortcut for some menu _directly_ after the freeze, the menu opens, and

Wow this is good to know.

I'm also glad to know I'm not the only person this is happening to.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kenneth Downs"<ken@secdat.com>
Sent: 14/05/06 21:31:15
To: "pgsql-general@postgresql.org"<pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

> Florian G. Pflug wrote:

> > However, I figured out that if you press ALT-<key> with <key> being the
> > shortcut for some menu _directly_ after the freeze, the menu opens, and

> Wow this is good to know.

> I'm also glad to know I'm not the only person this is happening to.

Kenneth; what platform are you running on, and ehich window manager are you using?

Regards, Dave


-----Unmodified Original Message-----
Florian G. Pflug wrote:

> Tino Wildenhain wrote:
>
>> Kenneth Downs schrieb:
>>
>>> Dave Page wrote:
>>>
>>>>      On my linux box, it also has the dubious honor of being the only
>>>>     program I have ever seen that can lock X hard, with killing the X
>>>>     server being the only rescue (if you call that a rescue).  It can
>>>>     connect over networks, but on mine it always seems to hang after
>>>>     an hour or so, and you have to kill it and restart it.
>>>> That's a new one. Any other symptoms? Can you get a backtrace from
>>>> a coredump?
>>>>
>>> The good news is I could not reproduce it.  But when it happens
>>> again I'll know who to notify.
>>>
>>> As I recall, the problem would occur in the query analyzer.  If
>>> there was highlighted text in the top window, and you highlighted a
>>> row in the results, and then clicked into the upper window while
>>> dragging the mouse, it would freeze the X server.  It has happened
>>> much much less often lately, but it did happen just two days ago,
>>> and it always involves a click-drag situation.
>>
>>
>> Yes, that seems a gtk issue. You mark, then klick accidentaly into
>> the marked text (usually to change the mark area) and in the result
>> you are dragging the text to nowhere. pgadmin and X freezes in this
>> case. However you can login via another box and just kill pgadmin
>> to unfreeze. Maybe there is a problem with how drag & drop
>> is/isnt handled by the code? I have no idea.
>
> It only happens in pgAdmin III, though, so it must be some strange
> interaction between wxWindows and GTK. I believe that the window manager
> is part of the problem too, because I've used KDE (together with kwin)
> for the last few years, and while it had this freezing-problem
> initially, it went away with some update. I believed that a wx or
> pgadmin update solved this, but now I'm using Gnome (together with
> metacity), and the problem is back... :-(
>
> However, I figured out that if you press ALT-<key> with <key> being the
> shortcut for some menu _directly_ after the freeze, the menu opens, and

Wow this is good to know.

I'm also glad to know I'm not the only person this is happening to.

Dave Page wrote:

Wow this is good to know.   

I'm also glad to know I'm not the only person this is happening to.   

Kenneth; what platform are you running on, and ehich window manager are you using?

Regards, Dave

 

gentoo linux on an AMD.  here are some stats, if you tell me any other packages you need versions for I can provide those.

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 14 May 2006 23:12
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

gentoo linux on an AMD.  here are some stats, if you tell me any other packages you need versions for I can provide those. 

 

 

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.
 

On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 07:31 -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
> > Only runs on Windows though doesn't it?
> >
> > Regards, Dave
> >
> >
> Hardly a limitation since Linux and other Unix based operating systems
> account for a trivial percent of the desktop market.  I would guess that
> more regular people (NON FOSS developers) access Postgresql from a win32
> Desktop not a Unix one.
> When Linux gets above 20% it might make sense to make applications for
> it, or if there was a thriving  RAD IDE like Delphi.  Mono is shaping up
> and so is Lazarus, but
> they  are not there yet, and WXwidgets/Python etc is not productive at
> all, and Java is slow.
> By the way PGLA actually works OK with the latest version of WINE so it
> can run on Linux, just not natively.
>

It runs like a dog in Wine and is extremely unstable in my experience.
The only thing I run under Wine is IE6 and I only do that because I need
to test webapps on it.

As for the desktop market, it may be true the Windows accounts for the
majority of the *entire* desktop market, but I'd be willing to bet that
the profile of the desktop market containing customers who would want or
need an RDBMS GUI would be very different. Everyone at my place of work
who would have a need for such an app runs linux, which would currently
put PG Lightning Admin out of the picture (which I might add is a Damn
Shame because it looks really nice).

> I like many people dual boot Linux and I can tell you I spend most of my
> time in win32 because applications I need don't exist for Linux.
>
> Later,
>
--

Russ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
> Florian G. Pflug
> Sent: 14 May 2006 18:50
> To: Tino Wildenhain
> Cc: Kenneth Downs; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> It only happens in pgAdmin III, though, so it must be some
> strange interaction between wxWindows and GTK. I believe that
> the window manager is part of the problem too, because I've
> used KDE (together with kwin) for the last few years, and
> while it had this freezing-problem initially, it went away
> with some update. I believed that a wx or pgadmin update
> solved this, but now I'm using Gnome (together with
> metacity), and the problem is back... :-(

I'm unable to reproduce this problem with pgAdmin SVN-trunk built with
wxGTK 2.6.3 on Slackware-current with KDE.

Can anyone else reproduce this bug with a 1.4 build of pgAdmin with wx
2.6.x?

Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.
 

I'm upgrading now to 1.4.1, that's the latest package available for gentoo.

Gentoo has no package named wxwidgets, but we do have wxGTK, which is at version 2.6.2.  Does this make any sense?

From here I will no longer consciously try to avoid the hang-up, hoping that if it continues to happen we'll find out sooner rather than later.

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 15 May 2006 14:24
Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

Dave Page wrote:

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.
 

 
Gentoo has no package named wxwidgets, but we do have wxGTK, which is at version 2.6.2.  Does this make any sense? 

 

 

From here I will no longer consciously try to avoid the hang-up, hoping that if it continues to happen we'll find out sooner rather than later.
 

Kenneth Downs wrote:

Dave Page wrote:

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.
 

I'm upgrading now to 1.4.1, that's the latest package available for gentoo.

My final note on this thread unless and until I can reproduce the problem.

pgadmin3 v 1.4 looks very nice!   I like the ability to pick another database, and the helpful hints are a leap forward over previous versions.  Good job!

---

From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
Sent: 15 May 2006 15:14
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface

Kenneth Downs wrote:

Dave Page wrote:

kernel 2.6.8
KDE 3.3.2
gtk+ 2.4.14
pgadmin3 1.2.2

The window manager would be whatever the default for KDE is.
 

I'm upgrading now to 1.4.1, that's the latest package available for gentoo.

Dave Page wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
>> Florian G. Pflug
>> Sent: 14 May 2006 18:50
>> To: Tino Wildenhain
>> Cc: Kenneth Downs; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> It only happens in pgAdmin III, though, so it must be some
>> strange interaction between wxWindows and GTK. I believe that
>> the window manager is part of the problem too, because I've
>> used KDE (together with kwin) for the last few years, and
>> while it had this freezing-problem initially, it went away
>> with some update. I believed that a wx or pgadmin update
>> solved this, but now I'm using Gnome (together with
>> metacity), and the problem is back... :-(
>
> I'm unable to reproduce this problem with pgAdmin SVN-trunk built with
> wxGTK 2.6.3 on Slackware-current with KDE.
>
> Can anyone else reproduce this bug with a 1.4 build of pgAdmin with wx
> 2.6.x?

Here are the details of my configuration which shows the problem:
Ubuntu Dapper (i386 version, using gnome+metacity)
pgadmin-1.4.2, installed by doing:
    <add debian/etch deb-src entries to sources.list>
    apt-get source pgadmin3
    dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b

greetings, Florian Pflug

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:fgp@phlo.org]
> Sent: 15 May 2006 19:05
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Tino Wildenhain; Kenneth Downs; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Here are the details of my configuration which shows the problem:
> Ubuntu Dapper (i386 version, using gnome+metacity)
> pgadmin-1.4.2, installed by doing:
>     <add debian/etch deb-src entries to sources.list>
>     apt-get source pgadmin3
>     dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b

Oh, you managed to reproduce it again? Interesting it's on Ubuntu
again... Anyhoo, I've got me an ISO, will build a VM shortly.

Regards, Dave.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com]
> Sent: 13 May 2006 14:58
> To: Dave Page
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> All that page mentions is the weird quirks on win32, I am
> sure you know what those are, i.e. windows suddenly lose
> there size and position info and appear in the upper left
> corner of the screen in a semi minimized state, there are others.
> Fix the problems and I will remove the thing about the
> quirks.

Hi Tony,

I have eventually found a bug which did what you described - when
closing a minimised window, an incorrect size/position value was
returned by wxWidgets and saved. This was certainly not a cross-platform
quirk as you described it (I've seen the exact same bug in VB apps
before now). This has now been fixed in SVN.

Please state what other 'quirks' you are referring to, and if they are
bugs I will fix them. If not, please update your site per your statement
above.

Regards, Dave

On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 02:02:27PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Scott Marlowe wrote:
> > On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 11:39, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > > I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically developers that
> > > > are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
> > > > choice is MacOSX.
> > >
> > > And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
> > > PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)
> >
> > Now now, he didn't say it was his.  Could be his mother's...
> >
> > (ducks to avoid tomato thrown by Bruce...)
>
> I remember he got some type of Mac laptop while he was at Greatbridge,
> but when they went bust, the parent company didn't know what to do with
> a Mac, so they let him keep it.  (I didn't use a laptop at the time.)
> Might be the same one.
>
> Anyway, it would make an interesting reason for choosing a Mac.  I can
> see the commerical now.  :-)
>
> I actually use a laptop running XP.  I got it for the Win32 port, and
> because I use putty/ssh, Mozilla, and Gaim 99% of the time, it doesn't
> matter what OS I use.  I could install a unix on it, but there seems to
> be no need because all my unix work is done on my server via ssh.

I was prepared to hate OS X and it's silly one-button-ness, but I bought
a 17" powerbook anyway, because to me that's what a laptop should be;
plenty of screen real estate but also thin and light.

Then I started using OS X and came to realize (to quote from Jurasic
Park) "this is unix, I know this!"

Granted, when it comes to administration it's a fair bit different, but
I think OS X is about the best desktop environment a unix geek could ask
for. All the tools you've grown accustomed to are right there and work
just fine. No need to even ssh anywhere for them.
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

You should try the new MacBook Jim! The 17" is out now. I used to
have the 17" PB G4, but now I have a 15" MacBook Pro with 2GB of RAM.
It's a sweet machine! Very fast too.

____________________________________________________________________
Brendan Duddridge | CTO | 403-277-5591 x24 |  brendan@clickspace.com

ClickSpace Interactive Inc.
Suite L100, 239 - 10th Ave. SE
Calgary, AB  T2G 0V9

http://www.clickspace.com

On May 15, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 02:02:27PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Scott Marlowe wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 11:39, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>>> I am regularly dealing with customers, and specifically
>>>>> developers that
>>>>> are running Linux+PostgreSQL on the server... but their desktop of
>>>>> choice is MacOSX.
>>>>
>>>> And to follow up on this, I just saw that Tom Lane, Buddha guru of
>>>> PostgreSQL runs a Powerbook ;)
>>>
>>> Now now, he didn't say it was his.  Could be his mother's...
>>>
>>> (ducks to avoid tomato thrown by Bruce...)
>>
>> I remember he got some type of Mac laptop while he was at
>> Greatbridge,
>> but when they went bust, the parent company didn't know what to do
>> with
>> a Mac, so they let him keep it.  (I didn't use a laptop at the time.)
>> Might be the same one.
>>
>> Anyway, it would make an interesting reason for choosing a Mac.  I
>> can
>> see the commerical now.  :-)
>>
>> I actually use a laptop running XP.  I got it for the Win32 port, and
>> because I use putty/ssh, Mozilla, and Gaim 99% of the time, it
>> doesn't
>> matter what OS I use.  I could install a unix on it, but there
>> seems to
>> be no need because all my unix work is done on my server via ssh.
>
> I was prepared to hate OS X and it's silly one-button-ness, but I
> bought
> a 17" powerbook anyway, because to me that's what a laptop should be;
> plenty of screen real estate but also thin and light.
>
> Then I started using OS X and came to realize (to quote from Jurasic
> Park) "this is unix, I know this!"
>
> Granted, when it comes to administration it's a fair bit different,
> but
> I think OS X is about the best desktop environment a unix geek
> could ask
> for. All the tools you've grown accustomed to are right there and work
> just fine. No need to even ssh anywhere for them.
> --
> Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
> Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
> vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461
>
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: A.M. [mailto:agentm@themactionfaction.com]
> Sent: 15 May 2006 15:05
> To: Dave Page
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
>
> > I'm unable to reproduce this problem with pgAdmin SVN-trunk
> built with
> > wxGTK 2.6.3 on Slackware-current with KDE.
> >
> > Can anyone else reproduce this bug with a 1.4 build of
> pgAdmin with wx
> > 2.6.x?
>
> I can- reliably even- using stock Ubuntu 5.10 with:
> gnome-libs 1.4.2
> pgadmin 1.4.2
> wxWindows 2.6
>
> Any drag-and-drop operation makes X freeze until I terminate
> pgadmin remotely or from a pty. Let me know how I can help to
> fix this- obviously, X is waiting for something from pgadmin
> which it isn't getting. You could use the Ubuntu Live CD if
> you want to try it out for yourself.

It'll be useful to have around so I built an Ubuntu 5.10 VM to test this
in.

Using source builds of wxGTK-2.6.3 and pgAdmin 1.4.2 (or SVN trunk) I
find that DnD works perfectly on Ubuntu - it even saves fragments in a
text file if I dump it on the desktop which is a pretty neat feature (of
Gnome?) that I never saw before. I've been unable to make it hang itself
and certainly not X.

Can either you or Florian try a source build please? Florian should know
how by now :-p, but if needed, you can find some instructions at
http://www.pgadmin.org/download/source.php.

Thanks, Dave.

> Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming
> from a commercial system is more than likely used to running the
> admin tools on windows.

We have a whole department of DBAs, *none* of whom have Microsoft on
their desktops.

Further, the Big, Important Systems that we administer consciously
hide behind firewalls such that the user interface Shall Be Usable Via
SSH.

Purty graphical tools just don't appear on our radar as being
interesting.

Any times I have been involved with Oracle or Informix, much the same
has been true: telnet/ssh has been the conduit to the user interface,
which leaves graphical tools pretty useless...

> Before there was even a windows version many many people accessed
> Postgresql from windows, I know I did.

I know I didn't, which ought to be a legitimate counterexample.
--
output = reverse("moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/x.html
"Look, would it save you all this bother if I just gave up and went
mad now?"  -- Arthur Dent

Christopher Browne wrote:
>> Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming
>> from a commercial system is more than likely used to running the
>> admin tools on windows.
>
> We have a whole department of DBAs, *none* of whom have Microsoft on
> their desktops.
>
> Further, the Big, Important Systems that we administer consciously
> hide behind firewalls such that the user interface Shall Be Usable Via
> SSH.
>
> Purty graphical tools just don't appear on our radar as being
> interesting.

well, ssh has for a long time the option to forward ports to
you. So this isnt really an argument pro/con gui tools :-)

Personally I find psql for some and pgadmin3 for other
tasks used the same time a good couple.

Regards
Tino

Hi,

On Wed, 17 May 2006, Tino Wildenhain wrote:

> Christopher Browne wrote:
>>> Also most DBAs are not hard core OSS programmers and anyone coming
>>> from a commercial system is more than likely used to running the
>>> admin tools on windows.
>>
>> We have a whole department of DBAs, *none* of whom have Microsoft on
>> their desktops.
>>
>> Further, the Big, Important Systems that we administer consciously
>> hide behind firewalls such that the user interface Shall Be Usable Via
>> SSH.
>>
>> Purty graphical tools just don't appear on our radar as being
>> interesting.
>
> well, ssh has for a long time the option to forward ports to
> you. So this isnt really an argument pro/con gui tools :-)
>
> Personally I find psql for some and pgadmin3 for other
> tasks used the same time a good couple.

I have yet to see a graphical tool that will manage our schema and
schema change scripts as efficiently and reliably as vim and cvs.

We do sometimes use ssh port forwarding to run scripts,reports and
schema changes on remote databases only accessible via ssh.

I only use pgadmin3 if I need a quick look at a database I am not
familiar with. If I need a deeper look I dump the schema and browse
it with vim.

Greetings
Christian

--
Christian Kratzer                       ck@cksoft.de
CK Software GmbH                        http://www.cksoft.de/
Phone: +49 7452 889 135                 Fax: +49 7452 889 136

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
> Christian Kratzer
> Sent: 17 May 2006 15:14
> To: Tino Wildenhain
> Cc: Christopher Browne; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> I only use pgadmin3 if I need a quick look at a database I am
> not familiar with. If I need a deeper look I dump the schema
> and browse it with vim.

What (if anything) would help pgAdmin do what you need?

Regards, Dave

Hi,

On Wed, 17 May 2006, Dave Page wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
>> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
>> Christian Kratzer
>> Sent: 17 May 2006 15:14
>> To: Tino Wildenhain
>> Cc: Christopher Browne; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>> I only use pgadmin3 if I need a quick look at a database I am
>> not familiar with. If I need a deeper look I dump the schema
>> and browse it with vim.
>
> What (if anything) would help pgAdmin do what you need?

no idea.  I am perfectly happy with vim and cvs.

Greetings
Christian

--
Christian Kratzer                       ck@cksoft.de
CK Software GmbH                        http://www.cksoft.de/
Phone: +49 7452 889 135                 Fax: +49 7452 889 136

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Kratzer [mailto:ck-lists@cksoft.de]
> Sent: 17 May 2006 15:30
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Tino Wildenhain; Christopher Browne; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: RE: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 17 May 2006, Dave Page wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> >> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Christian
> >> Kratzer
> >> Sent: 17 May 2006 15:14
> >> To: Tino Wildenhain
> >> Cc: Christopher Browne; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> >> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
> >>
> >> I only use pgadmin3 if I need a quick look at a database I am not
> >> familiar with. If I need a deeper look I dump the schema
> and browse
> >> it with vim.
> >
> > What (if anything) would help pgAdmin do what you need?
>
> no idea.  I am perfectly happy with vim and cvs.

Fair 'enuff.

Regards, Dave.

Dave Page wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: A.M. [mailto:agentm@themactionfaction.com]
>> Sent: 15 May 2006 15:05
>> To: Dave Page
>> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>>
>>> I'm unable to reproduce this problem with pgAdmin SVN-trunk
>> built with
>>> wxGTK 2.6.3 on Slackware-current with KDE.
>>>
>>> Can anyone else reproduce this bug with a 1.4 build of
>> pgAdmin with wx
>>> 2.6.x?
>> I can- reliably even- using stock Ubuntu 5.10 with:
>> gnome-libs 1.4.2
>> pgadmin 1.4.2
>> wxWindows 2.6
>>
>> Any drag-and-drop operation makes X freeze until I terminate
>> pgadmin remotely or from a pty. Let me know how I can help to
>> fix this- obviously, X is waiting for something from pgadmin
>> which it isn't getting. You could use the Ubuntu Live CD if
>> you want to try it out for yourself.
>
> Using source builds of wxGTK-2.6.3 and pgAdmin 1.4.2 (or SVN trunk) I
> find that DnD works perfectly on Ubuntu - it even saves fragments in a
> text file if I dump it on the desktop which is a pretty neat feature (of
> Gnome?) that I never saw before. I've been unable to make it hang itself
> and certainly not X.

It took me a while to find out how exactly to reproducte the hang (It
would happen to me about once a day when using pgadmin3 heavily on
gnome/metacity, but when trying to reproduce it, I couldn't).

You have to select some text, and then _doubleclick_ on the selected
part. When I do this, the cursor is changes to some strange shape (
Kind of a upper-left corner with a "+"-sign inside). Ever click is
ignored, but the keyboard remains working (I can edit text in the
sql-editor). When I press Alt-f in this state, the File-Menu opens,
the cursor resumes it's normal shape, and clicks are handled again.

If, however, the sql-editor looses focus while in the "funny mode", then
I know of now way to get X working again apart from changing to a
console, and killling pgadmin3.

> Can either you or Florian try a source build please? Florian should know
> how by now :-p, but if needed, you can find some instructions at
> http://www.pgadmin.org/download/source.php.
I'm currently build wx, will report if a custom-built pgadmin3 shows the
same behaviour.

greetings, Florian

Florian G. Pflug wrote:

>
> It took me a while to find out how exactly to reproducte the hang (It
> would happen to me about once a day when using pgadmin3 heavily on
> gnome/metacity, but when trying to reproduce it, I couldn't).
>
> You have to select some text, and then _doubleclick_ on the selected
> part. When I do this, the cursor is changes to some strange shape (
> Kind of a upper-left corner with a "+"-sign inside). Ever click is
> ignored, but the keyboard remains working (I can edit text in the
> sql-editor). When I press Alt-f in this state, the File-Menu opens,
> the cursor resumes it's normal shape, and clicks are handled again.
>
> If, however, the sql-editor looses focus while in the "funny mode", then
> I know of now way to get X working again apart from changing to a
> console, and killling pgadmin3.
>
Aha!  Reproduced.  The doubleclick is the trick.

But on my system once this happens that's that.  No keyboard rescue, and
it doesn't matter who has focus, only way to rescue is to go to another
system and ssh in and kill pgadmin3.

A.M. wrote:
> Excellent catch! I was wondering why I couldn't get it to freeze. I now
> have a backtrace:
> poll()
> wxPaletteBase::~wxPaletteBase
> g_main_context_check()
> g_main_run_loop_run()
> gtk_main()
> wxEventLoop::Run()
>
> So the evidence points to a wx bug in the destructor to wxPaletteBase
> perhaps?

Hm.. all very strange...

I just build wxGTK 2.6.3 and pgadmin3 1.4.2 using g++ 3.3 on Ubuntu
Dapper, and _the_bug_is_gone_!.

When I double-click a selection using my self-compiled version, the
text is just unselected.

Doing the same in the version that I compiled by fetching the
source-package from debian/etch, and doing "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
-b" freezes X.

I'm going to compare wx configure flags now...

BTW, I used g++ 3.3 because a build using g++ 4.0 would crash instantly
when started (without showing even the tiniest bit of GUI...)

greetings, Florian

Florian G. Pflug wrote:
> A.M. wrote:
>> Excellent catch! I was wondering why I couldn't get it to freeze. I now
>> have a backtrace:
>> poll()
>> wxPaletteBase::~wxPaletteBase
>> g_main_context_check()
>> g_main_run_loop_run()
>> gtk_main()
>> wxEventLoop::Run()
>>
>> So the evidence points to a wx bug in the destructor to wxPaletteBase
>> perhaps?
>
> Hm.. all very strange...
>
> I just build wxGTK 2.6.3 and pgadmin3 1.4.2 using g++ 3.3 on Ubuntu
> Dapper, and _the_bug_is_gone_!.
>
> When I double-click a selection using my self-compiled version, the
> text is just unselected.
>
> Doing the same in the version that I compiled by fetching the
> source-package from debian/etch, and doing "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
> -b" freezes X.
>
> I'm going to compare wx configure flags now...
Hm.. clicked send too soon ;-)

Theres no need to compare configure-flags - the version of wx shipped
with ubuntu dapper is 2.6.1, while I used 2.6.3. So for me it seems
as if 2.6.3 (or 2.6.2) fixed the bug.

Can anyone reproduce the bug with 2.6.3?

greetings, Florian Pflug

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:fgp@phlo.org]
> Sent: 18 May 2006 21:15
> Cc: A.M.; Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] GUI Interface
>
> Florian G. Pflug wrote:
> > A.M. wrote:
> >> Excellent catch! I was wondering why I couldn't get it to
> freeze. I
> >> now have a backtrace:
> >> poll()
> >> wxPaletteBase::~wxPaletteBase
> >> g_main_context_check()
> >> g_main_run_loop_run()
> >> gtk_main()
> >> wxEventLoop::Run()

<snip>

> > I'm going to compare wx configure flags now...
> Hm.. clicked send too soon ;-)
>
> Theres no need to compare configure-flags - the version of wx
> shipped with ubuntu dapper is 2.6.1, while I used 2.6.3. So
> for me it seems as if 2.6.3 (or 2.6.2) fixed the bug.

Nice work guys - thanks.

>
> Can anyone reproduce the bug with 2.6.3?

I cannot.

Regards, Dave.

We've been using EMS PostgreSQL admin.

Pros:
It has great visual tools for building views. Like in Enterprise manager or MS Access. pgAdmin don't have that.
Great import/export abilities. PGAdmin don't have much flexibility.

Cons:
Too bad it don't support UNICODE and not known if it will.
Problems with dollar-quoted procedures. But that's PostresSQL long-standing problem. I mean if you have procedures you may create then only in command-line psql or pgAdmin. Other tools that are not developed by Postgres team will choke and report something about unterminated constant.