Thread: Web site gripes
(ok, they aren't really gripes, just things that I find a little hard to deal with) o. When I visit http://www.postgresql.org, the first thing I get is a whole bunch of flags offering me mirrors. If we are going to manage this many mirrors, can we do something like what php.net does and make it transparent? Perhaps use a cookie so I get directed to the one I used last time? o. When I make it to the actual pages, almost always in search of documentation, the first thing I do is look for "Docs" in the little helper bar on the left side. It's not there. o. When I /do/ make it to a docs page, I end up at a "oldest stuff at the top" list, when it is likely that the first thing people want is going to be the newest docs. o. When I finally make it to the documentation for my version, I get a list of no less then 38 different links, covering almost all permutations of [Integrated|Admin|Programmer|Developer|Reference|Tutorial|User's Guide] and [PDF|Postscript|HTML|A4 PDF|A4 Postscript] Do we really need all of this? Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com. For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the documents. -- Adam Haberlach | "Pancakes don't make hardly any juice adam@newsnipple.com | and bacon makes too much." http://www.newsnipple.com | -- bug-eyed earl '88 EX500 '00 >^< | http://youlook.org
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Adam Haberlach wrote: > (ok, they aren't really gripes, just things that I find a little hard > to deal with) Actually the DOCS list is where this stuff goes 'cuze I pay more attention to that list, but since we're here... > o. When I visit http://www.postgresql.org, the first thing I get is a > whole bunch of flags offering me mirrors. If we are going to manage > this many mirrors, can we do something like what php.net does and > make it transparent? Perhaps use a cookie so I get directed to the > one I used last time? We tried that and had more complaints than praise. Why not bookmark the mirror you prefer to use? One note about the current one, if a site hasn't updated in the last 48 hours their flag is automatically dropped. > o. When I make it to the actual pages, almost always in search of > documentation, the first thing I do is look for "Docs" in the little > helper bar on the left side. It's not there. Another thing that falls under more complaints than praise. We used to do that too, but we actually have two sets of docs; current and release. Two entirely different sets of people use the site and the docs so things that pertain to developers are found in the developers corner and things that pertain to average users are found in the users lounge. This includes mailing lists and docs. You'll also find links to the docs on the main page under "Release Docs", "Current or Development Docs" and "Interactive". They're in the third announcement item from the top. > o. When I /do/ make it to a docs page, I end up at a "oldest stuff at > the top" list, when it is likely that the first thing people want is > going to be the newest docs. When you /do/ make it to the docs page you're presented with a choice of which docs you want to use, "Current Release Docs (ver 7.1)" being the very first one; click on that and you'll be taken to the version 7.1 set of documentation. The Interactive docs will also be the latest docs and you can do keyword searches and see and/or add user comments to them (just like the php site). > o. When I finally make it to the documentation for my version, I get > a list of no less then 38 different links, covering almost all > permutations of > > [Integrated|Admin|Programmer|Developer|Reference|Tutorial|User's Guide] > and > [PDF|Postscript|HTML|A4 PDF|A4 Postscript] > > Do we really need all of this? Yes. > > Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is > typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal > with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com. Gripes, no. But would you like some cheese with that whine? > For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive > documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the > documents. On second thought, go buy your own cheese. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Thalis A. Kalfigopoulos wrote: > > > Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is > > > typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal > > > with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com. > > > > Gripes, no. But would you like some cheese with that whine? > > > > > For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive > > > documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the > > > documents. > > > > On second thought, go buy your own cheese. > > > > Vince. > > Hey relax, > the man was just trying to be helpful by pointing out how convenient you cut out his whining to attempt to make a point. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> > Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is
> > typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal
> > with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com.
>
> Gripes, no. But would you like some cheese with that whine?
>
> > For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive
> > documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the
> > documents.
>
> On second thought, go buy your own cheese.
>
> Vince.
Hey relax,
the man was just trying to be helpful by pointing out what would be discouraging for the newcomer in getting
startedfor Pg. And making one feel comfortable the first time will probably bring one back again, no matter whether it
isavg Joe or Mr. Born2dba.
The search mechanism could really use a face-lift. Printing the page names is not very useful as one cannot really
tell(and shouldn't have to remember) the difference for example between ecpg-develop.html, ecpg-use.html and ecpg.html.
Additionallyinstead of having the results POSTed, why not GET them so that when following a link, later one can return
tothe search result page without gatting the annoying "Data Missing..." message.
We are not criticizing here...just suggesting :-)
best regards,
thalis
> --
> ==========================================================================
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>
> http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
>
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Thalis A.
Kalfigopoulos
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:57 AM
To: Vince Vielhaber
Cc: Adam Haberlach; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Web site gripes
> > Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is
> > typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal
> > with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com.
>
> Gripes, no. But would you like some cheese with that whine?
>
> > For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive
> > documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the
> > documents.
>
> On second thought, go buy your own cheese.
>
> Vince.
Hey relax,
the man was just trying to be helpful by pointing out what would be
discouraging for the newcomer in getting started for Pg. And making one feel
comfortable the first time will probably bring one back again, no matter
whether it is avg Joe or Mr. Born2dba.
The search mechanism could really use a face-lift. Printing the page names
is not very useful as one cannot really tell (and shouldn't have to
remember) the difference for example between ecpg-develop.html,
ecpg-use.html and ecpg.html. Additionally instead of having the results
POSTed, why not GET them so that when following a link, later one can return
to the search result page without gatting the annoying "Data Missing..."
message.
We are not criticizing here...just suggesting :-)
best regards,
thalis
Ok, outright bitching then ;) ...the site is most definitely not intuitive
to use. Once you've gotten around a bit, yes you know where things are, but
when I first came to the site things where not exactly where you think
they'd be. A bit of reorganization would be most helpful.
We know you stole the cheese.
You do an excellent job Vince. By and large the website is awesome, and I love some of the newest additions such as the interactive docs. But you should listen to his gripes and respond in a more polite way. If you think he is wrong, then explain why. Responding with a personal attack is not helpful at all and seems really out of sync with the tone of the rest of the list. When I saw his first email I cringed because from reading your previous posts I knew you were going to respond exactly as you did. Norm -------------------------------------- Norman Clarke Combimatrix Corp Software Development Harbour Pointe Tech Center 6500 Harbour Heights Pkwy, Suite 301 Mukilteo, WA 98275 tel: 425.493.2240 fax: 425.493.2010 -------------------------------------- On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Thalis A. Kalfigopoulos wrote: > > > > > Hmm. Maybe they are gripes. While the Postgres documentation is > > > > typically first class, the site seems pretty hard for me to deal > > > > with, especially compared to ones like php.net and *ahem* mysql.com. > > > > > > Gripes, no. But would you like some cheese with that whine? > > > > > > > For bonus points, make the "search results" page in the "interactive > > > > documentation" return the titles of the pages, not the names of the > > > > documents. > > > > > > On second thought, go buy your own cheese. > > > > > > Vince. > > > > Hey relax, > > the man was just trying to be helpful by pointing out > > how convenient you cut out his whining to attempt to make a point. > > Vince. >
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Norman J. Clarke wrote: > You do an excellent job Vince. By and large the website is awesome, and I > love some of the newest additions such as the interactive docs. But you > should listen to his gripes and respond in a more polite way. If you think > he is wrong, then explain why. > > Responding with a personal attack is not helpful at all and seems really > out of sync with the tone of the rest of the list. When I saw his first > email I cringed because from reading your previous posts I knew you were > going to respond exactly as you did. I'll try to keep this plain and simple. If you (anyone) have suggestions for the website, I'm all ears. But if you're looking to be blown off, insulted, treated rudely, etc. then you need to preface it with a bunch of whining gripes that have little to no foundation. Make yourself look as clueless as possible. If you're going to go looking for things to bitch about as your lead-in to the suggestions you have, don't get upset if I tell you where to go. If I did it to you I'd expect the same result. On the flip side of the coin, I'm not one for praises either. Now then, even tho you can find it in the archives, I'll let everyone in on some of the reasons for the site's layout and why some things happen and some don't. Documentation: The release docs and the development docs (the ones that don't apply to the released version - things not there, things working differently, etc) have to be kept as far apart as possible. Time and time again I/we'd get email from people crabbing about how they depended on a specific feature that's in the documentation that doesn't work - only to find out they're reading the devel docs and using the release version or even an older version of the software. In the release docs section all of the indexes are created with a couple of scripts so a bunch of editing doesn't have to take place if things are added (such as a pdf version) or removed. Just run the script. This happens alot at release time for one reason or another. When you click on English docs, you get a page that has links for the different versions with the current release at the top. True, they're links to anchors on the same page but they're not visible at that time unless your browser's broken or you have your browser set to some rather large size. The anchors are far enough away that it shouldn't matter what order they're in. In the developer docs some work is still needed there to make it simpler. Mailing List Info: This too is separated between stuff that users are interested in and what developers are interested in. Why? Partly because too many people were getting confused about what lists they should be reading. Imagine, the hackers list was too advanced for a few folks. What's the difference between a developer and a user? A developer is someone that's actually working on the PostgreSQL sources either making additions, fixing bugs, working on docs, etc. for future releases. A user is one who uses, administrates, develops apps that use PostgreSQL, etc. typically in the current release. If someone has a better suggestion for names for developer and user, I'm all ears - but note the comments in the first paragraph (not the first sentence). Why Aren't Betas Announced? I tried using red, red bold, red bold and larger font size but too many people didn't see it and complained rather loudly that this version they found on the website didn't work and they lost their data. Never mind the fact it was beta, had beta in the filename, said on the website in big bold red letters that it was beta, if it was there, it should have been safe to use. Why isn't the webmaster's address on the website? If you made it this far on the internet that you're using, deploying, developing, etc. an open source database then webmaster@postgresql.org should be a no-brainer. When it was there I got 60-70 HotBabes/AcceptCreditCards/GetALoan/etc... spams each and every day. Now it's finally down to about 10/day. If, however, anyone wants me to forward some of the spam I get to them 'cuze they like getting that kinda stuff, I'll be more than happy to share!! :) BTW, I'm planning on a new look for the website in the not too distant future - but with graduations, weddings, etc. at this time of the year there's no set date. Perhaps the new look will satisify some of the things that folks dislike and/or maybe some of the things will flow together better, but I still expect that not everyone will be happy and many will be downright upset about it. Hmmm, maybe I'll do it in frames...... Lotsa little frames...... *evil laugh* Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 04:38:58PM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Norman J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > You do an excellent job Vince. By and large the website is awesome, and I
> > love some of the newest additions such as the interactive docs. But you
> > should listen to his gripes and respond in a more polite way. If you think
> > he is wrong, then explain why.
> >
> > Responding with a personal attack is not helpful at all and seems really
> > out of sync with the tone of the rest of the list. When I saw his first
> > email I cringed because from reading your previous posts I knew you were
> > going to respond exactly as you did.
>
> I'll try to keep this plain and simple.
>
> If you (anyone) have suggestions for the website, I'm all ears. But if
> you're looking to be blown off, insulted, treated rudely, etc. then you
> need to preface it with a bunch of whining gripes that have little to
> no foundation. Make yourself look as clueless as possible. If you're
> going to go looking for things to bitch about as your lead-in to the
> suggestions you have, don't get upset if I tell you where to go. If I
> did it to you I'd expect the same result. On the flip side of the coin,
> I'm not one for praises either.
Ok, I've held my tongue on this for a while, now, but your attitude
is just annoying the shit out of me. I'll keep it plain and simple,
too.
I gave you several specific instances of places where the web site
could be made easier. Such things as:
o. adopting a transparent system for mirrors, much like other open
source sites do.
o. reorganizing the navigation bar on the left side of the main page
to make it easier to find commonly-looked for things like "documentation".
(as opposed to making me look through "the third announcement in the
list for a link).
o. reorganizing or eliminating some of the 38 different flavors of
documentation that are on the actual documentation page.
THESE ARE NOT WHINING GRIPES. They are pefectly valid points about
how the current website design is flawed. Your responses were pretty
much "Make your own bookmark", "it doesn't work", and "you aren't
working hard enough to find things." This attitude is unacceptable.
I've been using PostgreSQL for several years, and my company has
currently adopted it for both server and client use. I don't need you
calling me (or anyone else, for that matter) a clueless whiner.
Technically, PostgreSQL is an excellent product. The community is
great--responsive and technically knowledgable. The documentation,
while a bit aged in places, is excellent. However, I'm currently tired
of having to dance all over the web site when I want to find the
definition of a function. As I (and others) have said, even the
context search on the site is damn near useless.
If you don't want to fix things, fine. Don't dismiss it as whining,
though.
--
Adam Haberlach | "Pancakes don't make hardly any juice
adam@newsnipple.com | and bacon makes too much."
http://www.newsnipple.com | -- bug-eyed earl
'88 EX500 '00 >^< | http://youlook.org
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Adam Haberlach wrote: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 04:38:58PM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Norman J. Clarke wrote: > > > > > You do an excellent job Vince. By and large the website is awesome, and I > > > love some of the newest additions such as the interactive docs. But you > > > should listen to his gripes and respond in a more polite way. If you think > > > he is wrong, then explain why. > > > > > > Responding with a personal attack is not helpful at all and seems really > > > out of sync with the tone of the rest of the list. When I saw his first > > > email I cringed because from reading your previous posts I knew you were > > > going to respond exactly as you did. > > > > I'll try to keep this plain and simple. > > > > If you (anyone) have suggestions for the website, I'm all ears. But if > > you're looking to be blown off, insulted, treated rudely, etc. then you > > need to preface it with a bunch of whining gripes that have little to > > no foundation. Make yourself look as clueless as possible. If you're > > going to go looking for things to bitch about as your lead-in to the > > suggestions you have, don't get upset if I tell you where to go. If I > > did it to you I'd expect the same result. On the flip side of the coin, > > I'm not one for praises either. > > Ok, I've held my tongue on this for a while, now, but your attitude > is just annoying the shit out of me. I'll keep it plain and simple, > too. You started out fine, then you got to the whining: > o. When I /do/ make it to a docs page, I end up at a "oldest stuff at > the top" list, when it is likely that the first thing people want is > going to be the newest docs. > > o. When I finally make it to the documentation for my version, I get > a list of no less then 38 different links, covering almost all > permutations of That should be enough, but as you know (since you wrote it) there is more. I'm not going to get into it again, you don't like my attitude, I don't like yours or your whining. End of conversation. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> THESE ARE NOT WHINING GRIPES. They are pefectly valid points about > how the current website design is flawed. Your responses were pretty > much "Make your own bookmark", "it doesn't work", and "you aren't > working hard enough to find things." This attitude is unacceptable. I thought that was the main benefit of open source, you didn't have to write good documentation. : ) On a realistic note, did you really have to CC 4 or 5 people on that? I'm sure that they all read the list, and don't really need duplicate copies. steve
I have emailed the involved parties and hopefully we can avoid unpleasant threads like this in the future. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
I would really like is to have the "User's lounge" link changed to "User Documentation". If I haven't been to the postgresql site in a few months, when I look at the "User's lounge" link, I always think, "Is that a chat room or something?" Actually you might want to have a "User Documentation and Mailing Lists" link, since that will get the great majority of newcomers going in the right direction to start off with. -Edwin
I agree, it took me a while to find that out too... Daniel Åkerud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edwin Grubbs" <egrubbs@rackspace.com> To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: [GENERAL] web site suggestion > I would really like is to have the "User's lounge" link changed to "User > Documentation". If I haven't been to the postgresql site in a few months, > when I look at the "User's lounge" link, I always think, "Is that a chat > room or something?" Actually you might want to have a "User Documentation > and Mailing Lists" link, since that will get the great majority of > newcomers going in the right direction to start off with. > > -Edwin > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org >
> I would really like is to have the "User's lounge" link changed to "User > Documentation". If I haven't been to the postgresql site in a few months, > when I look at the "User's lounge" link, I always think, "Is that a chat > room or something?" Actually you might want to have a "User Documentation > and Mailing Lists" link, since that will get the great majority of > newcomers going in the right direction to start off with. Agreed. I always thought of "Lounge Singer". -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I would really like is to have the "User's lounge" link changed to "User > > Documentation". If I haven't been to the postgresql site in a few months, > > when I look at the "User's lounge" link, I always think, "Is that a chat > > room or something?" Actually you might want to have a "User Documentation > > and Mailing Lists" link, since that will get the great majority of > > newcomers going in the right direction to start off with. > > Agreed. I always thought of "Lounge Singer". You mean you didn't hang around long enough to hear that guy singing the mssql blues? He's pretty good! Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > I would really like is to have the "User's lounge" link changed to "User > > > Documentation". If I haven't been to the postgresql site in a few months, > > > when I look at the "User's lounge" link, I always think, "Is that a chat > > > room or something?" Actually you might want to have a "User Documentation > > > and Mailing Lists" link, since that will get the great majority of > > > newcomers going in the right direction to start off with. > > > > Agreed. I always thought of "Lounge Singer". > > You mean you didn't hang around long enough to hear that guy singing > the mssql blues? He's pretty good! I am a big Sinatra fan so I was looking for him there. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026