Thread: Outline for PostgreSQL book
Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book. Many of us have been asked by publishers about writing a book. Here is what I think would be a good outline for the book. I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book, how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing documentation can be managed into a published book, etc. Any comments would be welcome. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ................................................................... The attached document is in both web page and text formats. View the one which looks best. PostgreSQL Book Proposal Bruce Momjian 1. Introduction 2. Installation (a) Getting POSTGRESQL (b) Compiling (c) Initialization (d) Starting the server (e) Creating a database (f) Issuing database commands 3. Introduction to SQL (a) Why a database? (b) Creating tables (c) Adding data with INSERT (d) Viewing data with SELECT (e) Removing data with DELETE (f) Modifying data with UPDATE (g) Restriction with WHERE (h) Sorting data with ORDER BY (i) Usage of NULL values 4. Advanced SQL Commands (a) Inserting data from a SELECT (b) Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc. (c) GROUP BY with aggregates (d) HAVING with aggregates (e) Joining tables (f) Using table aliases (g) UNION clause (h) Subqueries (i) Transactions (j) Cursors (k) Indexing (l) Table defaults (m) Primary/Foreign keys (n) AND/OR usage (o) LIKE clause usage (p) Temporary tables (q) Importing data 5. POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features (a) Object ID'S (OID) (b) Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC) (c) Locking and Deadlocks (d) Vacuum (e) Views (f) Rules (g) Sequences (h) Triggers (i) Large Objects(BLOBS) (j) Adding User-defined Functions (k) Adding User-defined Operators (l) Adding User-defined Types (m) Exotic Preinstalled Types (n) Arrays (o) Inheritance 6. Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database (a) C Language API (b) Embedded C (c) C++ (d) JAVA (e) ODBC (f) PERL (g) TCL/TK (h) PYTHON (i) Web access (PHP) (j) Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI) 7. POSTGRESQL Adminstration (a) Creating users and databases (b) Backup and restore (c) Performance tuning (d) Troubleshooting (e) Customization options (f) Setting access permissions 8. Additional Resources (a) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S) (b) Mailing list support (c) Supplied documentation (d) Commercial support (e) Modifying the source code
Bruce Momjian wrote:
>Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book. Many of us
>have been asked by publishers about writing a book. Here is what I
>think would be a good outline for the book.
>
>I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book,
>how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing
>documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
>
>Any comments would be welcome.
> PostgreSQL Book Proposal
>
> Bruce Momjian
>
> 1.
> Introduction
> 2.
> Installation
...
> 3.
> Introduction to SQL
...
It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people
will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).
Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
it.
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> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however. > > I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people > will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have > them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb). > > Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' > users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do > it. Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going to be a mess to look at. New version attached. No PDF version this time. Do people like PDF? -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ................................................................... The attached document is in both web page and text formats. View the one which looks best. PostgreSQL Book Proposal Bruce Momjian 1. Introduction (a) History of POSTGRESQL (b) Open source software (c) When to use a database 2. Issuing database commands (a) Starting a database session (b) Controlling a session (c) Sending queries (d) Getting help 3. Introduction to SQL (a) Creating tables (b) Adding data with INSERT (c) Viewing data with SELECT (d) Removing data with DELETE (e) Modifying data with UPDATE (f) Restricting with WHERE (g) Sorting data with ORDER BY (h) Using NULL values 4. Advanced SQL Commands (a) Inserting data from a SELECT (b) Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, ... (c) GROUP BY with aggregates (d) HAVING with aggregates (e) Joining tables (f) Using table aliases (g) UNION clause (h) Subqueries (i) Transactions (j) Cursors (k) Indexing (l) Column defaults (m) Primary/foreign keys (n) AND/OR usage (o) LIKE clause usage (p) Temporary tables (q) Importing data 5. POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features (a) Object ID'S (OID'S) (b) Multi-Version Concurrency Control (c) Locking and deadlocks (d) Vacuum (e) Views (f) Rules (g) Sequences (h) Triggers (i) Large objects(BLOBS) (j) Adding user-defined functions (k) Adding user-defined operators (l) Adding user-defined types (m) Exotic pre-installed types (n) Arrays (o) Inheritance 6. Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database (a) C Language API (b) Embedded C (c) C++ (d) JAVA (e) ODBC (f) PERL (g) TCL/TK (h) PYTHON (i) Web access (PHP) (j) Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI) 7. POSTGRESQL Administration (a) Creating users and databases (b) Backup and restore (c) Performance (d) Troubleshooting (e) Customization (f) Setting access permissions (g) International character encodings 8. Additional Resources (a) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S) (b) Mailing list support (c) Supplied documentation (d) Commercial support (e) Modifying the source code 9. Appendix: Installation (a) Getting POSTGRESQL (b) Compiling (c) Initialization (d) Starting the server (e) Creating a database 10. Annotated Bibliography
On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however. >> >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb). > >> >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do >> it. > > Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going > to be a mess to look at. > > New version attached. No PDF version this time. Do people like PDF? Not at this early stage. Wait till it's further along. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include <std/disclaimers.h> Have you seen http://www.pop4.net? Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
At 16:56 12-10-99 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' > > users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do > > it. > Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going > to be a mess to look at. I agree on this particular item BUT... wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book? there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc. focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres is/was developed the way it is/was. 'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would become another entry-level booklet. OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as possible.
At 16:56 12-10-99 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' > users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do > it. Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going to be a mess to look at. I agree on this particular item BUT... wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book? there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc. focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres is/was developed the way it is/was. 'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would become another entry-level booklet. OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as possible.
On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however. >> >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb). > >> >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do >> it. > > Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going > to be a mess to look at. It doesn't have to be a mess. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include <std/disclaimers.h> Have you seen http://www.pop4.net? Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> I agree on this particular item BUT... > > wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book? > there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc. > > focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres > is/was developed the way it is/was. > > 'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would > become another entry-level booklet. > > OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as > possible. Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books. I think we need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so experienced people can skip newbie chapters. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> > On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: > >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however. > >> > >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people > >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have > >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb). > > > >> > >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' > >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do > >> it. > > > > Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going > > to be a mess to look at. > > It doesn't have to be a mess. > Frankly, if I can get away with having whole sections that point to URL files, so much the better. If I can just point them to the INSTALL file, and be done with it, great. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: >> >> On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: >> >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however. >> >> >> >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix. More and more, people >> >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have >> >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb). >> > >> >> >> >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal' >> >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do >> >> it. >> > >> > Done. Certainly better to get that at the end. That chapter is going >> > to be a mess to look at. >> >> It doesn't have to be a mess. >> > > Frankly, if I can get away with having whole sections that point to URL > files, so much the better. If I can just point them to the INSTALL > file, and be done with it, great. The installation can be quick and painless. I'll explain more tomorrow. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include <std/disclaimers.h> Have you seen http://www.pop4.net? Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
> > possible.
>
> Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books. I think we
> need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so
> experienced people can skip newbie chapters.
I don't think it really matters that much if the first book
about PostgreSQL is more for a newbie than a professional or
vice versa. What count's is that it is up to date and
correct. If I go to a book store and find only one book on a
topic, it's usually not the one "I" was looking for. But
what would make other authors write another book on the same
topic - most likely the authors who write details I haven't
known before? It's the success of the former one.
Think about it a little.
The first book has to be successful. Therefore it has to
address most of the interested people. Those who know how to
get the information they need out of manpages, RFC's and W3C
recommendations aren't the ppl who to address in this case.
So let it please be a newbie book, and the hard ones will
follow.
Another problem is that during the last release cycles, it
wasn't that easy to follow all the changes in the
capabilities of PostgreSQL. Not even for me, and I'm not
counting myself to the outermost circle. Now what chance do
you give a book that's written based on v6.5 if we are about
to release v7.1 some months ahead? And more important, if it
happens this way, does our "aggressive" development invite
other authors to take a chance on the same topic? I don't
think so.
If we really want professional publishing about PostgreSQL
(we want - no?), the core team has to co-operate with the
authors of those books in a way, that they can write their
book based on the upcoming release and sell it with a CD
where that release is included. At the time it is published,
there should only be bugfixes available on the net - not
already two newer releases.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#========================================= wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck) #
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as > > > possible. > > > > Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books. I think we > > need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so > > experienced people can skip newbie chapters. > > I don't think it really matters that much if the first book > about PostgreSQL is more for a newbie than a professional or > vice versa. What count's is that it is up to date and > correct. If I go to a book store and find only one book on a > topic, it's usually not the one "I" was looking for. But > what would make other authors write another book on the same > topic - most likely the authors who write details I haven't > known before? It's the success of the former one. > > Think about it a little. > > The first book has to be successful. Therefore it has to > address most of the interested people. Those who know how to > get the information they need out of manpages, RFC's and W3C > recommendations aren't the ppl who to address in this case. > So let it please be a newbie book, and the hard ones will > follow. That was my thought too. > Another problem is that during the last release cycles, it > wasn't that easy to follow all the changes in the > capabilities of PostgreSQL. Not even for me, and I'm not > counting myself to the outermost circle. Now what chance do > you give a book that's written based on v6.5 if we are about > to release v7.1 some months ahead? And more important, if it > happens this way, does our "aggressive" development invite > other authors to take a chance on the same topic? I don't > think so. > > If we really want professional publishing about PostgreSQL > (we want - no?), the core team has to co-operate with the > authors of those books in a way, that they can write their > book based on the upcoming release and sell it with a CD > where that release is included. At the time it is published, > there should only be bugfixes available on the net - not > already two newer releases. I have a list of interested publishers, and am going to post it so people can get involved and start writing. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
You should put one special section to talk about DATE. (datetime,
abstime, etc..)
That is the most asked by the mailing list.
You could put tons of samples on how to use and manipulate DATE.
ie. How to get the time, how to get the minute, how to get the hour,
how to get the month in number (1,2,3,4),
how to get the month in word (JAN, FEB, MAR)
The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.
Regards,
Chairudin Sentosa
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book. Many of us
> have been asked by publishers about writing a book. Here is what I
> think would be a good outline for the book.
>
> I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL
> book,
> how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our
> existing
> documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
>
> Any comments would be welcome.
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle
> maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
> 19026
> ...................................................................
>
> The attached document is in both web page and text formats.
> View the one which looks best.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PostgreSQL Book Proposal
>
> Bruce Momjian
>
> 1. Introduction
> 2. Installation
>
> (a) Getting POSTGRESQL
> (b) Compiling
> (c) Initialization
> (d) Starting the server
> (e) Creating a database
> (f) Issuing database commands
> 3. Introduction to SQL
>
> (a) Why a database?
> (b) Creating tables
> (c) Adding data with INSERT
> (d) Viewing data with SELECT
> (e) Removing data with DELETE
> (f) Modifying data with UPDATE
> (g) Restriction with WHERE
> (h) Sorting data with ORDER BY
> (i) Usage of NULL values
> 4. Advanced SQL Commands
>
> (a) Inserting data from a SELECT
> (b) Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc.
> (c) GROUP BY with aggregates
> (d) HAVING with aggregates
> (e) Joining tables
> (f) Using table aliases
> (g) UNION clause
> (h) Subqueries
> (i) Transactions
> (j) Cursors
> (k) Indexing
> (l) Table defaults
> (m) Primary/Foreign keys
> (n) AND/OR usage
> (o) LIKE clause usage
> (p) Temporary tables
> (q) Importing data
> 5. POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
>
> (a) Object ID'S (OID)
> (b) Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC)
> (c) Locking and Deadlocks
> (d) Vacuum
> (e) Views
> (f) Rules
> (g) Sequences
> (h) Triggers
> (i) Large Objects(BLOBS)
> (j) Adding User-defined Functions
> (k) Adding User-defined Operators
> (l) Adding User-defined Types
> (m) Exotic Preinstalled Types
> (n) Arrays
> (o) Inheritance
> 6. Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
>
> (a) C Language API
> (b) Embedded C
> (c) C++
> (d) JAVA
> (e) ODBC
> (f) PERL
> (g) TCL/TK
> (h) PYTHON
> (i) Web access (PHP)
> (j) Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
> 7. POSTGRESQL Adminstration
>
> (a) Creating users and databases
> (b) Backup and restore
> (c) Performance tuning
> (d) Troubleshooting
> (e) Customization options
> (f) Setting access permissions
> 8. Additional Resources
>
> (a) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
> (b) Mailing list support
> (c) Supplied documentation
> (d) Commercial support
> (e) Modifying the source code
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PostgreSQL Book Proposal
>
> Bruce Momjian
>
> 1.
> Introduction
> 2.
> Installation
> (a)
> Getting POSTGRESQL
> (b)
> Compiling
> (c)
> Initialization
> (d)
> Starting the server
> (e)
> Creating a database
> (f)
> Issuing database commands
> 3.
> Introduction to SQL
> (a)
> Why a database?
> (b)
> Creating tables
> (c)
> Adding data with INSERT
> (d)
> Viewing data with SELECT
> (e)
> Removing data with DELETE
> (f)
> Modifying data with UPDATE
> (g)
> Restriction with WHERE
> (h)
> Sorting data with ORDER BY
> (i)
> Usage of NULL values
> 4.
> Advanced SQL Commands
> (a)
> Inserting data from a SELECT
> (b)
> Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc.
> (c)
> GROUP BY with aggregates
> (d)
> HAVING with aggregates
> (e)
> Joining tables
> (f)
> Using table aliases
> (g)
> UNION clause
> (h)
> Subqueries
> (i)
> Transactions
> (j)
> Cursors
> (k)
> Indexing
> (l)
> Table defaults
> (m)
> Primary/Foreign keys
> (n)
> AND/OR usage
> (o)
> LIKE clause usage
> (p)
> Temporary tables
> (q)
> Importing data
> 5.
> POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
> (a)
> Object ID'S (OID)
> (b)
> Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC)
> (c)
> Locking and Deadlocks
> (d)
> Vacuum
> (e)
> Views
> (f)
> Rules
> (g)
> Sequences
> (h)
> Triggers
> (i)
> Large Objects(BLOBS)
> (j)
> Adding User-defined Functions
> (k)
> Adding User-defined Operators
> (l)
> Adding User-defined Types
> (m)
> Exotic Preinstalled Types
> (n)
> Arrays
> (o)
> Inheritance
> 6.
> Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
> (a)
> C Language API
> (b)
> Embedded C
> (c)
> C++
> (d)
> JAVA
> (e)
> ODBC
> (f)
> PERL
> (g)
> TCL/TK
> (h)
> PYTHON
> (i)
> Web access (PHP)
> (j)
> Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
> 7.
> POSTGRESQL Adminstration
> (a)
> Creating users and databases
> (b)
> Backup and restore
> (c)
> Performance tuning
> (d)
> Troubleshooting
> (e)
> Customization options
> (f)
> Setting access permissions
> 8.
> Additional Resources
> (a)
> Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
> (b)
> Mailing list support
> (c)
> Supplied documentation
> (d)
> Commercial support
> (e)
> Modifying the source code
On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: 2BOOK Authors: Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another languages by you self, not by publisher. I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers like O'Reilly have too hard license policy and too long reaction time. --- Dmitry Samersoff, dms@wplus.net, ICQ:3161705 http://devnull.wplus.net * There will come soft rains ...
Dmitry Samersoff wrote: > > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: > > 2BOOK Authors: > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another > languages by you self, not by publisher. > > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy > and too long reaction time. > I may ask some Indonesian's publishing company to make Indonesian translation of this book too. I may help the translation from English to Indonesian language. Regards, Chairudin Sentosa
Chairudin Sentosa Harjo wrote:
>
> You should put one special section to talk about DATE. (datetime,
> abstime, etc..)
> That is the most asked by the mailing list.
> You could put tons of samples on how to use and manipulate DATE.
> ie. How to get the time, how to get the minute, how to get the hour,
> how to get the month in number (1,2,3,4),
> how to get the month in word (JAN, FEB, MAR)
how to select all individuals that are more than 50 years old today
at 12:00PM
And ouf course about TimeZones (why sometimes I insert one date and
get out another ;-p)
And of course mention that mostly it is not PostgreSQL's problem but
just a very hairy subject ;(
And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section
for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be
sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly)
> The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
> Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.
Agreed.
Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
* Outer Joins
* Casts (bot AS and ::, with some explanations on why and when)
Not sure if Views and Triggers should go under Uniqe features - they are
supported on most commercial SQL databases.
"Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database" could also contain more options
than PHP,
at least as references - there are much more of both established (CGI,
PyApache,mod_perl)
and emerging (like the recent pgxml announcement) technologies for that
purpos.
Server side programming should also mention PL/Tcl
Under which section would requirements the restrictions (db size, field
size/count, record size/count)
or lackof them :) go?
(I recently checked Oracle8i for Linux, and it quoted 128MB RAM as
minimum and 256
as recommended - I think we are a lot less demanding, I guess PG can
reasonably run in 16MB ?)
-----------------
Hannu
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > New version attached. No PDF version this time. Do people like PDF? > There could be also a chapter on client side tools - pgAccess et.al. and also small (but working ;) examples for using ODBC from MS Access, MS Query, Delphi, JBuilder, Visual Cafe - each about 2-5 pages to get people started. -------------- Hannu
[Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: > > 2BOOK Authors: > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another > languages by you self, not by publisher. > > > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy > and too long reaction time. Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
[Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>
> On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> >
> > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> 2BOOK Authors:
> Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> languages by you self, not by publisher.
>
>
> I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company
> to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> like O'Reilly have too hard license policy
> and too long reaction time.
>
FYI, I just did bibliography, and got:
(a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley
(b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley
(c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
(d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
(e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann
Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner.
--
Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle
maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section > for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be > sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly) > > > The most important thing is to have alot of samples. > > Practical samples are more useful than just syntax. > > Agreed. > > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain: > > * Outer Joins But we don't have them yet. > * Casts (bot AS and ::, with some explanations on why and when) > > Not sure if Views and Triggers should go under Uniqe features - they are > supported on most commercial SQL databases. Yes, I know, but Triggers are specific to the database, and I guess I have to move views to the other section. > > "Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database" could also contain more options > than PHP, > at least as references - there are much more of both established (CGI, > PyApache,mod_perl) That's probably too advanced for this book. Not sure how much detail I am going to give each interface anyway. Probably just two examples of each. > and emerging (like the recent pgxml announcement) technologies for that > purpos. > > Server side programming should also mention PL/Tcl > Added. > Under which section would requirements the restrictions (db size, field > size/count, record size/count) > or lackof them :) go? Under Administration, or Installation. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> > > > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > > > New version attached. No PDF version this time. Do people like PDF? > > > > There could be also a chapter on client side tools - pgAccess et.al. > and also small (but working ;) examples for using ODBC from MS Access, > MS Query, Delphi, JBuilder, Visual Cafe - each about 2-5 pages to get > people started. I wasn't sure where to put pgaccess. I will add it to interfaces. The others are probably better left to another book, Interfaces PostgreSQL to PC's. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section > > for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be > > sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly) > > > > > The most important thing is to have alot of samples. > > > Practical samples are more useful than just syntax. > > > > Agreed. > > > > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain: > > > > * Outer Joins > > But we don't have them yet. Yes, but we will (or should) by the time the book comes out. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include <std/disclaimers.h> Have you seen http://www.pop4.net? Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> > 2BOOK Authors:
> > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> > languages by you self, not by publisher.
> >
> >
> > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company
> > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy
> > and too long reaction time.
>
> Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will
> keep your translation idea in mind. Good point.
What about translating the regular docs first? Are you planning on using a
lot of the existing documentation for the book? Perhaps one could organize
the distributed documentation as a sort of abridged version of the
official book, similar to what is being done with Perl. Just an idea.
And what kind of timespan did you have in mind?
I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the
User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots
of insane plans ...
-Peter
> > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will > > keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. > > What about translating the regular docs first? Are you planning on using a > lot of the existing documentation for the book? Perhaps one could organize > the distributed documentation as a sort of abridged version of the > official book, similar to what is being done with Perl. Just an idea. > > And what kind of timespan did you have in mind? > > I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the > User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots > of insane plans ... Not sure on a timespan. I think I could do most if it in one month if I did nothing else. My wife seems supportive of the idea. Not sure how to merge current documentation into it. I would like to point them to URL locations as much as possible. I thought if I give them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit together, that would be good. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Not sure how to merge current documentation into it. I would like to
> point them to URL locations as much as possible. I thought if I give
> them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit
> together, that would be good.
Personally, I always think that computer books that point you to URLs to
get the complete information are less than desirable. The very point of
reading the book is that you don't have to get up to your computer all the
time. Books should be self-contained and add to the existing documentation
since otherwise I won't need it.
Also, think about the fact that the online documentation might change more
quickly than a book is published. In a magazine you can do that, but in a
book that's questionable. I have a few books that are only about two years
old and the information in them is still very valid, but the URLs with all
the examples and all don't work anymore. Who knows why, I don't have the
time to find out.
But the publishers are probably a lot smarter in that area than I am.
-Peter
> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > Not sure how to merge current documentation into it. I would like to > > point them to URL locations as much as possible. I thought if I give > > them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit > > together, that would be good. > > Personally, I always think that computer books that point you to URLs to > get the complete information are less than desirable. The very point of > reading the book is that you don't have to get up to your computer all the > time. Books should be self-contained and add to the existing documentation > since otherwise I won't need it. > > Also, think about the fact that the online documentation might change more > quickly than a book is published. In a magazine you can do that, but in a > book that's questionable. I have a few books that are only about two years > old and the information in them is still very valid, but the URLs with all > the examples and all don't work anymore. Who knows why, I don't have the > time to find out. > I just don't want to produce a 500 page book to cover these topics. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
>Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book. Many of us >have been asked by publishers about writing a book. Here is what I >think would be a good outline for the book. > >I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book, >how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing >documentation can be managed into a published book, etc. > >Any comments would be welcome. FYI, here is the table of contents from my PostgreSQL book published in Japan at the beginning of this year (I do not guarantee the accuracy of translation to English, however). Note that the second edition about to be released will contain many more topics including MVCC, transactions, views, rules, triggers... --- Tatsuo Ishii ----------------------------------------------------------- Chapter 1 Introduction to PostgreSQL 1.1 History of PostgreSQL 1.2 Advantages of PostgreSQL Chapter 2 Installation 2.1 Before installation 2.2 Preparing for installation 2.3 Compiling and installation 2.4 Setting your environment 2.5 Initialization 2.6 Adding users and creating database 2.7 Using psql 2.8 Security Chapter 3 Learning PostgreSQL 3.1 Processes and modules 3.2 Source tree 3.3 Data types 3.4 User defined functions 3.5 User defined operators 3.6 User defined types Chapter 4 Make applications 4.1 Tcl/Tk 4.2 C 4.3 PHP 4.4 Perl 4.5 Java Chapter 5 Tips for PostgreSQL 5.1 Backuping database 5.2 Benchmark tests 5.3 Performance tuning 5.4 Troubles shooting 5.5 New functionalities (while writing this book 6.4 was about to release) 5.6 Developers and future plans 5.7 Resources on the Internet Appendix Total pages: 309
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the > User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots > of insane plans ... Hi Peter, I translated the FAQ and Linux-FAQ to german recently. I consider to translate the online doc, too. But it is so much for one person, so I didn't started yet. What about a cooperation? (Warning: I really need some advices to set up my sgml system ;)) have fun! Karsten
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
> >
> > * Outer Joins
>
> But we don't have them yet.
As someone else mentioned previously, due to time required to write,
publish and get this out on the shelf, shouldn't we be revolving this
around the upcoming v7 release, which I believe Thomas has Outer Joins
target'd for?
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
Hello, I just joined this list and am getting into the middle of this thread, but I did go back and read the archives. Just a few comments. To answer a previous question, I like PDFs. I like the approach that Bruce Eckel has taken to writing his last couple of books. It was somewhat of an opensource approach. He wrote the book and kept it on his site in PDF format and released regular updates based on either his additions to the book or corrections of errors and such by readers. It helped him to develop a good rapport with his audience. I do not believe the book being available on the web really impacted the sales of the published book that much. I know I printed one copy and purchased one copy. http://www.BruceEckel.com/ One thing to consider when writing the book is keeping it on target about PostgreSQL. I was browsing Amazon and SQL books and was reading about the MySQL book by O'Reilly. It got some really bad reviews based it being to general on databases and not specific about MySQL. Many said great db book, poor MySQL book. Read about it at, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565924347 . Their are many books which cover the basics of databases and database design and you list a few below. What is needed is a PostgreSQL book. Their will be overlap, but the emphasis should be on database development with PostgreSQL. That is what will differentiate it from others. Addison Wesley is an excellent publisher as is O'Reilly. I would recommend trying the above approach when writing the book and find a publisher friendly to the idea. Bruce's Thinking in Java was published by Prentice Hall. I don't know about any of the other publishers. Jimmie Houchin Bruce Momjian wrote: [snip] > FYI, I just did bibliography, and got: > > (a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley > (b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley > (c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley > (d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley > (e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann > > Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle > maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > > ************
Bruce Momjian wrote: > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will > keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. Talk to Philip Greenspun. Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book, "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook). His e-mail is philg@mit.edu. And you gotta see the quality of his book! Amazon carries it. (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little over the top....) -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio Pisgah Forest, North Carolina 1 Peter 4:11
> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain: > > > > > > * Outer Joins > > > > But we don't have them yet. > > As someone else mentioned previously, due to time required to write, > publish and get this out on the shelf, shouldn't we be revolving this > around the upcoming v7 release, which I believe Thomas has Outer Joins > target'd for? Yes, for 7.0, but no sense in writing stuff until it is completed. I don't even have WAL mentioned. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the > > User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots > > of insane plans ... > > Hi Peter, > > I translated the FAQ and Linux-FAQ to german recently. I consider to > translate the online doc, too. But it is so much for one person, so I > didn't started yet. What about a cooperation? > (Warning: I really need some advices to set up my sgml system ;)) I got sgmltools 2.0.1 and installed it on BSDI with no problems. Only issue was that I needed install GNU m4. See SGML docs for sgmltools install notes. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
Hello, I agree with your comments here. When I posted my message I had forgotten about Philip's book. Excellent book and website, photos, many are great and many are as you say "a little over the top". Based on his book which I learned about from his articles on LinuxWorld I have decided to deploy my website with AOLserver. I currently am planning to use PostgreSQL for the database. He does a great job of discussing how to develop excellent websites. Jimmie Houchin At 11:52 AM -0400 10/13/99, Lamar Owen wrote: >Bruce Momjian wrote: >> Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will >> keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. > >Talk to Philip Greenspun. Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book, >"Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on >the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook). His e-mail is philg@mit.edu. > >And you gotta see the quality of his book! Amazon carries it. >(although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little >over the top....) > >-- >Lamar Owen >WGCR Internet Radio >Pisgah Forest, North Carolina >1 Peter 4:11 > >************
> Hello, > > I just joined this list and am getting into the middle of this thread, > but I did go back and read the archives. > > Just a few comments. > > To answer a previous question, I like PDFs. > > I like the approach that Bruce Eckel has taken to writing his last > couple of books. It was somewhat of an opensource approach. He wrote the > book and kept it on his site in PDF format and released regular updates > based on either his additions to the book or corrections of errors and > such by readers. It helped him to develop a good rapport with his > audience. I do not believe the book being available on the web really > impacted the sales of the published book that much. I know I printed one > copy and purchased one copy. > http://www.BruceEckel.com/ Yes, I would like to do that, and the publisher I was talking to today seemed to think it was fine. He said it helps sell books. I would be very unhappy if the book could not be put on the web. In fact, he is subscribed to the hackers list, so he may be reading this. > One thing to consider when writing the book is keeping it on target > about PostgreSQL. I was browsing Amazon and SQL books and was reading > about the MySQL book by O'Reilly. It got some really bad reviews based > it being to general on databases and not specific about MySQL. Many said > great db book, poor MySQL book. > Read about it at, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565924347 . Good point. I will keep it in mind. > Their are many books which cover the basics of databases and database > design and you list a few below. What is needed is a PostgreSQL book. > Their will be overlap, but the emphasis should be on database > development with PostgreSQL. That is what will differentiate it from > others. Good. And I will show actual PostgreSQL examples in the book, with PostgreSQL output from psql, etc. > Addison Wesley is an excellent publisher as is O'Reilly. I would > recommend trying the above approach when writing the book and find a > publisher friendly to the idea. Bruce's Thinking in Java was published > by Prentice Hall. I don't know about any of the other publishers. Yes, I am a big Addison Wesley fan. I realized this when I found most of the books I like were from them. I am not a big O'Reilly fan, though I have a few of their books. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will > > keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. > > Talk to Philip Greenspun. Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book, > "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on > the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook). His e-mail is philg@mit.edu. > > And you gotta see the quality of his book! Amazon carries it. > (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little > over the top....) Again, having it on the web will be done. No better way to have it available to everyone, and it helps sell books, and the publisher thinks that is fine. Morgan-Kaufmann is good, but I don't have many of their books. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > PostgreSQL Book Proposal > > Bruce Momjian [...] > 4. > Advanced SQL Commands [...] > 6. > Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database > (a) > C Language API > (b) > Embedded C > (c) > C++ > (d) > JAVA > (e) > ODBC > (f) > PERL > (g) > TCL/TK > (h) > PYTHON > (i) > Web access (PHP) > (j) > Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI) Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4? (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL specific.) Or am I completely confused? (Where can I read about PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?) If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter 6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for the latter. (Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.)
> Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > > > PostgreSQL Book Proposal > > > > Bruce Momjian > > [...] > > > 4. > > Advanced SQL Commands > > [...] > > > > 6. > > Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database > > (a) > > C Language API > > (b) > > Embedded C > > (c) > > C++ > > (d) > > JAVA > > (e) > > ODBC > > (f) > > PERL > > (g) > > TCL/TK > > (h) > > PYTHON > > (i) > > Web access (PHP) > > (j) > > Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI) > > Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4? (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL > specific.) Or am I completely confused? (Where can I read about > PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?) > > If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter > 6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for > the latter. Not sure. They are properly 'programming' to me, so I put them there. They address a similar programmatic need in the database. > (Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match > what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but > even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of > a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of > all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.) I was going to do a newbie thing and show the advantages of each one. Not sure I want to go into great depth on any of them. Just enough to get people started, and using the documentation. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
Bruce Stephens wrote: > > Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes: > > > PostgreSQL Book Proposal > > > > Bruce Momjian > > [...] > > > 4. > > Advanced SQL Commands > > [...] > > > 6. > > Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database > > (a) > > C Language API > > (b) > > Embedded C > > (c) > > C++ > > (d) > > JAVA > > (e) > > ODBC > > (f) > > PERL > > (g) > > TCL/TK > > (h) > > PYTHON > > (i) > > Web access (PHP) > > (j) > > Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI) > > Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4? (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL > specific.) Or am I completely confused? (Where can I read about > PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?) > > If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter > 6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for > the latter. > > (Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match > what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but > even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of > a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of > all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.) > > ************ I second this opinion.
Last night Marc and i picked up
Object Relation DBMS
Michael Stonebraker & Paul Brown
Pub: Morgan Kaufman
ISBN 1 55860 452 9
It was reccommented by a potential client, i'll put up
a review when i finish it.
Jeff
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> [Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> >
> > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > >
> > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > 2BOOK Authors:
> > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> > languages by you self, not by publisher.
> >
> >
> > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company
> > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy
> > and too long reaction time.
> >
>
> FYI, I just did bibliography, and got:
>
> (a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley
> (b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley
> (c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
> (d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
> (e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann
>
> Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle
> maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
>
> ************
>
Jeff MacDonald
jeff@hub.org
===================================================================
So long as the Universe had a beginning, we can suppose it had a
creator, but if the Universe is completly self contained , having
no boundry or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed
It would simply be.
===================================================================
Bruce, Were you going to do this as a "group" project or is it a "solo" venture? If its a group project, I assume you are the "owner" of the "uber-contract" until it sells to a book publisher. To do this right, you would divide this contract into small peices, or sub-contracts. Then, as people contribute, their time is tracked against these components. Right now, for instance, you have a book-outline project which people are working on; it could be decided that the book-outline sub contract is worth ".5%" of the book ownership. Then, as people track their time against these sub-contracts, a summary (once a week) is presented to you (the owner of the contract) for approval of their hours. If approved, then the contributer owns a portion of the sub-contract, and thus a portion of the overall book. How compensation is done is up to you if you specify it before hand, or it is up to the owners if you wait until the book sells. The compensation schedule may be something like this: Up to | Compensation ------+-------------------0.1% | Listed as "helper"0.5% | Listed as "contributor", including a | very small biography;perhaps including | company name for free advertising. 2.0% | Listed as "major contributor", including | a full biography and a picture. 10.0% | Listed as "co-author", entitiled to | the same percentage of royalty stream. 30.0% | Listed as "editor", entitied to a | percentage of any book signing bonus plus | the same percentage of royaltystream Thus, the total royalty stream allocated will be less than 100%, and will be divided among, at most 9 people, which is managable. The remainder of the royalty stream can be donated to the site maintenance or can be used to fund a bonus pool for future projects / documentation maintance. ... However, if it is a "solo" deal, then you you should make it pretty clear -- otherwise I see heart-ache and bad feelings. ... Why do it this way? Beacuse PostgreSQL is a community effort, and a solo book sucks. Also, you want the book done, so direct rewards for contribution work does wonders! To use parts of the documentation, Thomas Lockheart would have to be given a percentage in the book, etc. Anyway, if the system is clear you will get far more help than otherwise... I'll be glad to maintain the "contract hierarchy" (per your direction) and to accept timesheets from people, preparing a weelky summary for you to approve. Then, I will maintain a page with progress on each sub-contract (or sub-sub-contract) so that we can go about this in a very organized way. I'm in it to see a kick ass book and to see a collaborative effort win. What do you think? Thomas? Clark
At 7:04 AM -0700 10/14/99, Clark C. Evans wrote: >Bruce, > >Were you going to do this as a "group" project or >is it a "solo" venture? > >If its a group project, I assume you are the "owner" >of the "uber-contract" until it sells to a book >publisher. To do this right, you would divide >this contract into small peices, or sub-contracts. >Then, as people contribute, their time is tracked >against these components. Right now, for instance, >you have a book-outline project which people are >working on; it could be decided that the book-outline >sub contract is worth ".5%" of the book ownership. >Then, as people track their time against these >sub-contracts, a summary (once a week) is presented >to you (the owner of the contract) for approval >of their hours. If approved, then the contributer The way this is normally done is to do a page or word count of the finished product. Each author owns a "chapter". The editor negotiates with the publisher and takes a cut off the top. Counting time is a bad idea IMHO. Too much uncertainty and inequity. Of course in this case there is a lot of pre-existing text which makes counting pages hard. Is there any way we can make this whole thing owned by postgresql.org and just use the proceeds for the project? I haven't been tracking the legal status. Signature failed Preliminary Design Review. Feasibility of a new signature is currently being evaluated. h.b.hotz@jpl.nasa.gov, or hbhotz@oxy.edu
> > Bruce, > > Were you going to do this as a "group" project or > is it a "solo" venture? I am taking this on as a solo project. > However, if it is a "solo" deal, then you you should > make it pretty clear -- otherwise I see heart-ache and > bad feelings. I have hesitated to talk about this in any more detail until I have discussed this via telephone with Marc, Thomas, and Tom Lane. I feel I need to get clearance from them on this. Vadim, unfortunately, is too far away to telephone. > Why do it this way? Beacuse PostgreSQL is a community > effort, and a solo book sucks. Also, you want the > book done, so direct rewards for contribution work > does wonders! To use parts of the documentation, > Thomas Lockheart would have to be given a percentage > in the book, etc. Anyway, if the system is clear > you will get far more help than otherwise... Well, I don't think a "group-written" book is going to read very well. Everyone has a different style, and a mis-mash of writing styles in a book will not work. It also will take too long to produce a book in that way. The book will be available via the Web and in PDF format even before it is completed. (I am writing it using LyX/LaTeX). I have written the first two chapters, and will be putting them out for everyone to read and use very soon. This book project will clearly be a win for all PostgreSQL users, whether they buy the book or not. That doesn't mean I will not be including significant amount of our existing documentation. For example, I would probably include the 'manual' pages at the end of the book, like many computer books. As far a money, let me mention something. While making $0 with PostgreSQL (I don't use it in my work, or even at home to store any data.), I have always offered to put money into the project because I think it is only fair that the costs be born fairly by the people involved. I have sent money to support our server, I have offered to send more in the past, and have offered to host the PostgreSQL Award around-the-world tour by including checks to pay for every leg of the trip. I have done other monetary gifts for PostgreSQL. So, if there need for some money for PostgreSQL, let me know. With or without the book, I am always interested in helping. Once I talk to everyone, I will be saying more. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> >If its a group project, I assume you are the "owner" > >of the "uber-contract" until it sells to a book > >publisher. To do this right, you would divide > >this contract into small peices, or sub-contracts. > >Then, as people contribute, their time is tracked > >against these components. Right now, for instance, > >you have a book-outline project which people are > >working on; it could be decided that the book-outline > >sub contract is worth ".5%" of the book ownership. > >Then, as people track their time against these > >sub-contracts, a summary (once a week) is presented > >to you (the owner of the contract) for approval > >of their hours. If approved, then the contributer > > The way this is normally done is to do a page or word count of the finished > product. Each author owns a "chapter". The editor negotiates with the > publisher and takes a cut off the top. Counting time is a bad idea IMHO. > Too much uncertainty and inequity. > > Of course in this case there is a lot of pre-existing text which makes > counting pages hard. Is there any way we can make this whole thing owned > by postgresql.org and just use the proceeds for the project? I haven't > been tracking the legal status. The first two chapters are Intro/History, like the one I wrote for the BSD magazine, and chapter 2 is using psql, which is all new. We really don't have much hand-holding stuff. Chapters 1-4 are going to be all new. The later chapters may use some existing stuff. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Thanks Bruce, just thought that I'd put in the suggestion. I'm sure with your experience it will be a fantastic book! ;) Clark On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I am taking this on as a solo project. >
Well Henery, the collaborative book idea is dead. But, here are my comments anyway. BTW, I didn't get your e-mail... is there a "docs" list and not a "pgsql-docs" list? If so, where are the archives? On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Henery B. Hotz wrote: > >Then, as people contribute, their time is tracked > >against these components. Right now, for instance, > >you have a book-outline project which people are > >working on; it could be decided that the book-outline > >sub contract is worth ".5%" of the book ownership. > >Then, as people track their time against these > >sub-contracts, a summary (once a week) is presented > >to you (the owner of the contract) for approval > >of their hours. > > The way this is normally done is to do a page or word count > of the finished product. Each author owns a "chapter". The > editor negotiates with the publisher and takes a cut off > the top. Counting time is a bad idea IMHO. > Too much uncertainty and inequity. I don't believe this is the case at all. For two reasons: 1. When someone decides they want to contribute, their hours can be multipled by a factor commensurate with their relevantexpeience. This multiplier can be wrong at first, but as the project moves along, the owner of the contract will have insentive to "promote" the multiplier for those who have really demonstrated that they are valid contributors. This will work out organically... besides most people will be very honest and submit a multiplier commensuratewith their experience. The (nonexistent?) few that don't will be quickly identified... it really isn't allthat hard. 2. If someone logs a ton of hours and tries to get them approved, the contract owner would have a good laugh and simplydeny the hours. I doubt this would happen in reality; in fact you might have the opposite problem -- people notturning in an adequate reflection of the time they have spent. As for counting words or basing it on chapters -- this really limits the ability of the vast number of contributers to feel like they are a part of the process. A tiny, but juicy kernel of wisdom is worth a ton. Pity nobody want's to do it. Oh well. We all have such little faith in other people. Damn shame. Clark
Bruce, On the slim chance that you may change your mind, I've decided to address some of your points. On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Well, I don't think a "group-written" book is going to read very well. You already started one. It hardly looks like a "solo" project to me. There is _nothing_ saying that it has to be design-by-committee. In fact, I assumed that you would run the book as a "dictatorship" where you keep complete artistic control over every element... including the voice. There is a ton other people can do... think: "What can I delegate". It will bring you amazing power -- you might end up owning only 40% of the book.... however, the book will be 1000% better and sell thousands more copies. > Everyone has a different style, and a mis-mash of writing > styles in a book will not work. Compare to: Everyone has a different style, a mis-match of programming styles in a computer program will notwork. Answer: Modulize, design your book so that this will be a non-issue. 1/2 of the book will be dreaming up and presenting 'cool' examples. The little bit of text that is in a personal voice canbe re-written. > It also will take too long to produce a book in that way. Compare to: It will take too long to make a computer program that way. Answer: Once the outline is made; and the project is broken down into modules much of it can be done in parallel. Debugging can also be done in parallel (as Eric Raymond so clearly writes). So what if acomplete re-write is needed at the end: Plan to throw one away. > The book will be available via the Web and in PDF format even before it > is completed. (I am writing it using LyX/LaTeX). I have written the > first two chapters, and will be putting them out for everyone to read comment, debug, suggest improvements on, revise, help with, > and use very soon. Yes, I know. You want to leverage the collaborative PostgreSQL community process when every possible. Amazing how well it works! > This book project will clearly be a win for all > PostgreSQL users, whether they buy the book or not. This much is true, but it's not the issue. > That doesn't mean I will not be including significant amount of our > existing documentation. For example, I would probably include the > 'manual' pages at the end of the book, like many computer books. They are seveal hundred pages and will be a great resource when writing the book -- they must have taken hundreds of hours to generate. I doubt that they would be all that useful verbadim at the end of the book. > As far a money, let me mention something. While making $0 with > PostgreSQL (I don't use it in my work, or even at home to store any > data.), I have always offered to put money into the project because I > think it is only fair that the costs be born fairly by the people > involved. I have sent money to support our server, I have offered to > send more in the past, and have offered to host the PostgreSQL Award > around-the-world tour by including checks to pay for every leg of the > trip. I have done other monetary gifts for PostgreSQL. Yes, I know. Most committed free software developers are in a similar boat and I wish there was a more equitable way of developing software like PostgreSQL. > So, if there need for some money for PostgreSQL, let me know. With or > without the book, I am always interested in helping. Bruce, I'm not questioning your integrety; if anything it should be the other way around as I am not a significant contributor and as an 'familar outsider' really don't have the right to question your actions. Infact, I admire you a TON and that's why I'm spending _my_ time authoring this e-mail. ... Please understand. I'm suggesting an alternative way of doing things; that maybye, just mabye could turn out to be biggerand more useful than expected. Consider this as a "small project" to see if the members of PostgreSQL communitycan deliver as a cohesive unit; not as an individual. If an accountable process like this were to work for abook -- then I would bet solid money that it would work for application software development for profit. And this, being able to generate a profit should be the goal that we as a community should be striving for. ... Imagine the book titled: "PostgreSQL: The Definitive Guide, by Bruce Momjian" Now imagine you going into Crysler corporationtrying to bid on a production control system. Do you think you will get it with the Oracle representativeright next to you? Imagine instead the book titled: "PostgreSQL: The Definitive Guide A collaborative work by the PostgreSQL Community, Edited by Bruce Momjian" Put yourself back in the board room at Crysler with Oracle sales person next to you. Do you think you are in a betterposition? I think so. The first book says you are a lone wolf. The second one shows you are a leader. It alsodemonstrates all too clearly that you an muster the entire PostgreSQL community behind you, ready to deliver on yourpromises. That is way powerful. Far more powerful than the lone wolf approach chosen by Larry Wall. ... So, you mentioned the $ word. Is this about $? Yes. However, it is not about the immediate money nor about your right to profit from PostgreSQL. It is about a key juncture for the PostgreSQL community; we can either fragment off as individuals... going Solo. Or, we can develop a business model that lets us move together as a community. Oracle isn't scared about the first one. Its petrified about the second. Best Wishes, Clark
> > Thanks Bruce, just thought that I'd put in > the suggestion. I'm sure with your experience > it will be a fantastic book! > It was a good suggestion. I just don't think writing scales to many people very well. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> 2. If someone logs a ton of hours and tries to get them approved, > the contract owner would have a good laugh and simply deny the > hours. I doubt this would happen in reality; in fact you might > have the opposite problem -- people not turning in an adequate > reflection of the time they have spent. > > As for counting words or basing it on chapters -- this really limits > the ability of the vast number of contributers to feel like they > are a part of the process. A tiny, but juicy kernel of wisdom is > worth a ton. > > Pity nobody want's to do it. Oh well. We all have such > little faith in other people. Damn shame. I guess I figured that if we were going to do a collaborative book, we would have done that with our documentation already. But in fact, it usually takes one person and lots of time. In our current Doc's case, it is Thomas. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > I guess I figured that if we were going to do a collaborative book, we > would have done that with our documentation already. Seveal Reasons: (a) we didn't have the goal to write a book for profit, (b) we didn't have a business model, (c) we didn't have a leader. Seems we have all three now: (a) Lots of people seem to have latched on to the goal, and it is apparant that there is significant demand. (b) The business model is there, it may not be perfect, but we can nail that down once we have experience. Everyone I've met in PostgreSQL is resonable; the inital agreement will be loose, as the book progresses the agreement can be tightened down as needed. (c) We have a *sweet* leader, Bruce Momjian, he has proven to be on top of things -- a man with not only great vision, but the drive to make things tick. Are you ready to delegate? Clark
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Clark C. Evans wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > I guess I figured that if we were going to do a collaborative book, we
> > would have done that with our documentation already.
>
> Seveal Reasons:
>
> (a) we didn't have the goal to write a book for profit, (b) we didn't
> have a business model, (c) we didn't have a leader.
>
> Seems we have all three now:
>
> (a) Lots of people seem to have latched on to the goal, and it is
> apparant that there is significant demand. (b) The business model
> is there, it may not be perfect, but we can nail that down once we
> have experience. Everyone I've met in PostgreSQL is resonable;
> the inital agreement will be loose, as the book progresses the
> agreement can be tightened down as needed. (c) We have a *sweet*
> leader, Bruce Momjian, he has proven to be on top of things -- a
> man with not only great vision, but the drive to make things tick.
>
> Are you ready to delegate?
Delegate what? Bruce is doing this as a solo project, what would he need
to delegate? *confused look* Now, the way I see it, he *could* have gone
off and written the book withuot letting any of us know about it, and
wihtout asking any of us for input as to how we'd like to see it look...he
didn't.
IMHO, if you feel that you need to continue along this vein, please take
it offlist and with Bruce privately...if someone else wishes to put the
time, effort and "risk of maritial status" up on the block and work on a
collaborative effort, so be it...but I personally am getting a major
distaste in my mouth from watching you trying to pressure Bruce into a
direction that he has already stated no desire to go. If ppl don't like
that, fine...don't buy the book when its done. Personally, I know where
my book buying dollars are going when the time comes...
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
My apologies. On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > IMHO, if you feel that you need to continue along this vein, please take > it offlist and with Bruce privately...if someone else wishes to put the > time, effort and "risk of maritial status" up on the block and work on a > collaborative effort, so be it...but I personally am getting a major > distaste in my mouth from watching you trying to pressure Bruce into a > direction that he has already stated no desire to go. If ppl don't like > that, fine...don't buy the book when its done. Personally, I know where > my book buying dollars are going when the time comes...
> > My apologies. > > On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > IMHO, if you feel that you need to continue along this vein, please take > > it offlist and with Bruce privately...if someone else wishes to put the > > time, effort and "risk of maritial status" up on the block and work on a > > collaborative effort, so be it...but I personally am getting a major > > distaste in my mouth from watching you trying to pressure Bruce into a > > direction that he has already stated no desire to go. If ppl don't like > > that, fine...don't buy the book when its done. Personally, I know where > > my book buying dollars are going when the time comes... Thomas mentioned that I need to request more than 20 free copies from the publisher. I will either get more for free, or pay for them myself and have them delivered to the main devlopers. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will > > keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. > > Talk to Philip Greenspun. Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book, > "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on > the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook). His e-mail is philg@mit.edu. I have this from Addison Wesley. It is online now. > And you gotta see the quality of his book! Amazon carries it. > (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little > over the top....) Much thanks for sending me this suggestion. I read it at: http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html First, it is very long, so let me give you a quick summary. He did his first book for MacMillan, which is like Sams, Waite, etc. Basically your fat book for dummies, and had a pretty terrible experience. You have to read it to appreciate it. This reminds me of Thomas's comment that we need a good, quality publisher for our books. If the first book that came out on PostgreSQL was "PostgreSQL for Dummies", Marc would have a fit. And I have seen him in fits -- it is not pretty. He did his second book for Morgan Kaufmann, who is a quality publisher like Addison Wesley. Totally different experience, and a different quality book. This is required reading for anyone who is interested in the book writing experience or is considering writing a book. People, we need to stay with the quality publishers, if possible. I am sure there will be a "PostgreSQL Unleashed" book one day, with tons of graphic arrows and very little content, but let's put it off as long as we can. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
If I may add.. I would highly recommend that you all read Phil Greenspun's story about his experience in publishing his book with MacMillan. Read between the lines, however. Where ever reference is made to MacMillan you could substitue almost <any publisher>. Greenspun is a great story teller so the material is a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences. He strikes me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one. Paul Paul W. Becker Addison Wesley Longman 671 Andover Road Valley Cottage, NY 10989 914-268-8003 (v) 914-268-3874 (f) Assistant: Ross Venables 781-944-3700 x2501 -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:maillist@candle.pha.pa.us] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:49 PM To: Lamar Owen Cc: Dmitry Samersoff; Vince Vielhaber; Oliver Elphick; PostgreSQL-documentation; "PostgreSQL-development"@candle.pha.pa.us; pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org; Jan Wieck Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web. I will > > keep your translation idea in mind. Good point. > > Talk to Philip Greenspun. Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book, > "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on > the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook). His e-mail is philg@mit.edu. I have this from Addison Wesley. It is online now. > And you gotta see the quality of his book! Amazon carries it. > (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little > over the top....) Much thanks for sending me this suggestion. I read it at: http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html First, it is very long, so let me give you a quick summary. He did his first book for MacMillan, which is like Sams, Waite, etc. Basically your fat book for dummies, and had a pretty terrible experience. You have to read it to appreciate it. This reminds me of Thomas's comment that we need a good, quality publisher for our books. If the first book that came out on PostgreSQL was "PostgreSQL for Dummies", Marc would have a fit. And I have seen him in fits -- it is not pretty. He did his second book for Morgan Kaufmann, who is a quality publisher like Addison Wesley. Totally different experience, and a different quality book. This is required reading for anyone who is interested in the book writing experience or is considering writing a book. People, we need to stay with the quality publishers, if possible. I am sure there will be a "PostgreSQL Unleashed" book one day, with tons of graphic arrows and very little content, but let's put it off as long as we can. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
Paul Becker wrote: > a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences. He strikes > me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read > some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one. And "Travels with Samantha" is a hoot. His coding style is very similar to his writing style -- lispish. But, then again, he's an old-hand MIT LISP hacker. You should read his tcl one day -- I've laughed till I've cried over some of his code. (I don't know if that's more of a statement about his coding style, or about my reading habits.....) Philip is certainly an interesting writer. Oh, BTW, Bruce, "You're Welcome." Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
> Paul Becker wrote: > > a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences. He strikes > > me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read > > some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one. > > And "Travels with Samantha" is a hoot. His coding style is very similar > to his writing style -- lispish. But, then again, he's an old-hand MIT > LISP hacker. You should read his tcl one day -- I've laughed till I've > cried over some of his code. (I don't know if that's more of a > statement about his coding style, or about my reading habits.....) > > Philip is certainly an interesting writer. Yes, he was interesting. He clearly caused some of his own problems with MacMillan, and I agreed with MacMillan on a number of issues. What I found interesting is something I had suspected for quite some time. I found that I have some great computer books, but when I go to the computer section of a book store, most books there are junk. Then I ordered Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" directly from Addison Wesley, and I started receiving their quarterly book bulletins. I said, "Hey, I read that book, and that one, and that one..." I realized that most of my books are from a handful of book publishers, Addison Wesley being the most popular in my bookshelf. Basically, I realized that not all the publishers are the same. Some produce quality, and others take a much more marketing slant in book production, usually producing poor quality books. One of the reasons I am posting this to the list is so people considering book writing ( and I know some publishers have been lurking in the past months), be careful who you sign with. It can affect your whole outlook on the process, and in the end, it is your name that is on the cover of the book, not the publisher. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> Dmitry Samersoff wrote: > > > > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > 2BOOK Authors: > > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another > > languages by you self, not by publisher. > > > > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company > > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers > > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy > > and too long reaction time. > > > > I may ask some Indonesian's publishing company to make > Indonesian translation of this book too. > I may help the translation from English to Indonesian language. Addison-Wesley does a lot of foreign rights sales. Let me know when you want information. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026