Thread: Toward A Positive Marketing Approach.
Greetings Guys As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO: 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links, somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER??? 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there. 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral. 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql. 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features. Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These must speak to TCO and ROI over time. 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out! I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100. Michael
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote:
> Greetings Guys
>
> As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to
> marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have
> read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few
> remarks IMHO:
>
> 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as
> social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the
> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.
Note that the push for postgresql at any given site is likely to be pushed
up from the technical staff. Find us some marketing pros who understand
the postgresql project and we'll let them have at it.
>
> 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links,
> somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that
> offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in
> the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if
> pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???
Links are free. Support for PostgreSQL is free via the mailing lists
and IRC. This free support is better than most call centers.
>
> 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
> accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
> Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
> takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
> A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
> professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.
This is already happening on the postgresql.org page and in the
PostgreSQL Weekly News.
>
> 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
> OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
> like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
> (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
> postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
> contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
> promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
> after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
You can already do this. Kick in money for a developer or consultant
and the program in question can be converted.
>
> 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a
> decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.
Ahh, Stonebraker's 4x4 matrix.
>
> 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around
> the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their
> software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a
> sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.
This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.
>
> 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative
> commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.
> Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not
> the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These
> must speak to TCO and ROI over time.
Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have. People will be happy
to use them.
>
> 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg.
> After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so
> specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about
> pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!
I actually agree with this.
>
> I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to
> influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.
>
> Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at
> this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like
> to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.
>
> Michael
Overall, I suggest you come to understand more about how open source
projects, and postgresql, specifically work. Discuss with others
*specific* items and how they can be implemented. Action always speaks
more loudly than words. For the most part Josh Berkus has been leading
the marketing effort. It would behoove you to discuss how you can help
him in that effort.
Carry on!
Elein
--------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training
--------------------------------------------------------------
elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com
office: (510)655-2584 Yahoo: AElein
cell: (510)543-6079 AIM: varlenallc
fax: (510)217-7008 Skype: varlenallc
PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.
Oh, and please don't cross post unless it is actually pertinent. The place to discuss this type of thing is on pgsql-advocacy. I apologize for crossposting my response. --elein On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote: > Greetings Guys > > As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to > marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have > read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few > remarks IMHO: > > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. > > 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links, > somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that > offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in > the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if > pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER??? > > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. > > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, > like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money > (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in > postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T > contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of > promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year > after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there. > > 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a > decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral. > > 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around > the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their > software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a > sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql. > > 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative > commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features. > Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not > the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These > must speak to TCO and ROI over time. > > 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. > After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so > specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about > pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out! > > I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to > influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. > > Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at > this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like > to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100. > > Michael > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq >
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote: > Greetings Guys > > As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to > marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I > have read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a > few remarks IMHO: I'm removing -hackers and leaving in -advocacy, where this discussion belongs. > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. I disagree with the premise of this assertion. The popularity of PostgreSQL, far from "paling," is increasing by leaps and bounds all over the world. It's increasing faster than any other DBMS in quite a few places. > 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links, Partly done. As we find hosting providers who support PostgreSQL, they go on the http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_hosting pages. Perhaps this should take a little less digging from the front page than it currently does, as it is not totally obvious to the end-user of the web site that they should follow the Support link to find out about hosting. > somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that > offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster > as in the past. I'll stack <irc://irc.freenode.net/postgresql> and the mailing lists against any support system, free or otherwise. > Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if pg is > SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER??? It's perfectly explicable in terms of first-mover advantage and marketing muscle. While the first-mover advantage can fade over time, PostgreSQL is likely to dominate in marketing muscle any time soon. There are other considerations, too. How many ISPs support Oracle or DB2? That's the space we're in. > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. We already do this! > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. > > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! What money? > Offer to PAY premiums to major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do > it well enough. Like Compierre, like Drupal. Ask me if i would > contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY > chosen favorite programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were > necessary? How many others DON'T contribute because they fail to > see a coherent, systematic program of promotion, just more of the > same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity > to the commercial realities out there. We've *just* gotten an organization together where people can contribute money after years of effort forming a 501(c)3 came to nothing. Please to have a little patience. Better still, join up. > 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a > decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor > neutral. Why hasn't Oracle provided such a thing? MySQL? I admire the sentiment, but it seems unlikely to me that there is ever going to be a "vendor neutral" decision tree because every vendor considers different things "absolutely crucial, must play an early part in the selection process." > 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications > around the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to > base their software on. A good example, the educators who wrote > LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely > with mysql. With what resources? > 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative > commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg > features. Already done. If you don't like the current ones, are you willing to (commit resources to) edit the current ones and/or write new ones? > 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. > After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be > so specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only > about pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single > anyone out! Great idea. > I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough > to influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. > Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged > at this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, > I like to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100. As every volunteer project does, we've got plenty of people who are full of suggestions. If you're one of that rare few who is also willing to roll up your sleeves and work, you're a welcome addition to the community :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote!
On Thursday 18 May 2006 16:32, Michael Dean wrote:
<snip>
> 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
> accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
> Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
> takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
> A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
> professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.
>
> 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
> OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
> like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
> (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
> postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
> contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
> promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
> after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
<snip>
> I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to
> influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.
>
You would be wrong. Several OSS projects have been approached about offering
postgresql support, and while they haven't been offered $50, they have been
offered the actual code they would need to implement postgresql support and
have turned it down.
As you said, you're new, but I have been promoting the practice of "advocacy
development" for some time now, and have personally been involved both
publicly and privately in attempting to bring postgresql support (either
newly or in a more sustained/complete fasion) to a number of different
packages including things like php-nuke, phpbb, drupal, s9y, mediawiki,
ajaxmytop, and others, and there have been little to no financial support for
those efforts (either for me or other people) so far.
I won't argue that some of your points are valid, and if you would like to
help with our marketing efforts there are certainly some ways you could help,
so I hope you stick around, but what I would really like to see in your next
email is a list of items you would like to work on personally to help our
marketing efforts. Need an example? How about writing some case studies?
Targeting C-level execs and disussing ROI and TCO... we could use that.
Remember, ask not what PostgreSQL can do for you, ask what you can do for
PostgreSQL :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Michael Dean wrote: > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, > like Drupal. Compiere has a religious preference for Oracle, money doesn't talk in this instance. As for Drupal, OpenMFG will be posting its Postgres port support (as well as for Drupal integration with the Mantis bugtracker). We use both for our community site, www.openmfg.org. Regards, Ned
Dropping -hackers.
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:46:23PM -0700, elein wrote:
> > 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links,
> > somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that
> > offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in
> > the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if
> > pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???
>
> Links are free. Support for PostgreSQL is free via the mailing lists
> and IRC. This free support is better than most call centers.
Maybe ISP's aren't getting the word?
Actually, I suspect the real issue is that there isn't enough demand.
Every OSS project out there uses MySQL, so that's what people want, so
it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support
PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk
to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application
using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP)
doesn't support it.
I think there's probably a lot to be gained by providing incentive for
ISPs to support PostgreSQL. Perhaps that incentive is just publicizing
the outstanding free support that's available. Or maybe if we get more
OSS projects supporting PostgreSQL, thereby increasing demand...
> > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
> > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
> > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
> > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
> > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
> > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.
>
> This is already happening on the postgresql.org page and in the
> PostgreSQL Weekly News.
>
> >
> > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
> > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
> > like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
> > (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
> > postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
> > contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
> > promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
> > after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
>
> You can already do this. Kick in money for a developer or consultant
> and the program in question can be converted.
Perhaps we should look at making a more concentrated push in this
area... both from a marketing standpoint ("Hey! OSS Projects! We'll help
you add PostgreSQL support!") as well as collecting donations that are
targeted towards this effort.
> > 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around
> > the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their
> > software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a
> > sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.
>
> This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.
But it should be a year-round effort...
> > 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative
> > commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.
> > Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not
> > the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These
> > must speak to TCO and ROI over time.
>
> Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have. People will be happy
> to use them.
I can get some time from Pervasive's marketing folks to help with stuff
like this if someone has specific ideas for collateral.
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
> it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support > PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk > to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application > using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP) > doesn't support it. Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support Postgres? That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to ISP's who support it... http://www.jtl.net is one (though I have no experience with them). It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting environment... Cheers, -Josh
On Fri, 19 May 2006, Joshua Kramer wrote: > >> it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support >> PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk >> to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application >> using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP) >> doesn't support it. > > Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support Postgres? > That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to ISP's who support > it... > > http://www.jtl.net is one (though I have no experience with them). > > It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting environment... http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_hosting ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
Joshua Kramer wrote: > >> it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support >> PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk >> to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application >> using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP) >> doesn't support it. > > Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support > Postgres? That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to > ISP's who support it... > > http://www.jtl.net is one (though I have no experience with them). > > It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting > environment... We have a whole list on the website of postgresql hosting providers. Joshua D. Drake > > Cheers, > -Josh > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Somewhere in this thread there was mention of an available brochure(s). Could someone point me to those materials? Thanks. Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 19 May 2006, Joshua Kramer wrote: > >> >>> it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support >>> PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk >>> to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application >>> using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP) >>> doesn't support it. >> >> >> Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support >> Postgres? That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to >> ISP's who support it... >> >> http://www.jtl.net is one (though I have no experience with them). >> >> It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting >> environment... > > > http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_hosting > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org > Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq >
mdean@sourceview.com (Michael Dean) writes: > As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to > marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have > read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few > remarks IMHO: > > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. Ah, but marketing efforts by "marketing pros" *to hackers/programmers* tend to also be regarded as "social bugs." This is a case where different sorts of marketing work when dealing with different sets of people. > 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links, > somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that > offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster > as in the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support > postgrsql. WHY?, if pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER??? We already offer "free links" and "free expertise." I don't see there being terribly much to be done in terms of reaching out to ISPs. > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind > postgresql. A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration > project, very professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs > some promotional help. This is being done. > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to > major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like > Compierre, like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to > pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite > programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How > many others DON'T contribute because they fail to see a coherent, > systematic program of promotion, just more of the same, free > linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity to the > commercial realities out there. With what money??? This isn't Oracle Corporation, with Billion$ of marketing dollar$ to $pend. Compiere is an example of a project that doesn't seem interested in migrating away from Oracle; they presumably get more support (possibly even money, too) than we'd be likely to be able to offer. > 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a > decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor > neutral. That's arguably not possible. A "vendor neutral" decision tree, as far as any given vendor is concerned, will be one which doesn't point anyone away from their product. That's not a decision tree that would point people towards PostgreSQL... > 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. > After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so > specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about > pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone > out! That probably is a good idea. > I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to > influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. I'd bet against that in a second. Plenty of people are neither interested in the money nor in the added effort. Furthermore, you are missing that there are people that are as biased towards the GPL as the people biased against it. There are people who refuse to use PostgreSQL on the basis that it is licensed under the BSD license, and you can't push them... -- "cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com" http://cbbrowne.com/info/unix.html CBS News report on Fort Worth tornado damage: "Eight major downtown buildings were severely damaged and 1,000 homes were damaged, with 95 uninhabitable. Gov. George W. Bush declared Tarrant County a disaster area. Federal Emergency Management Agency workers are expected to arrive sometime next week after required paperwork is completed."
Michael, Howdy, glad to see you came back. > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. Not really in line with PostgreSQL's "personality". This could work for OpenOffice, but not here. PG is a very engineering-central project and there aren't many people who want to change that. Your other comments have been mostly answered, but: > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. > > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, > like Drupal. Actually, what projects who don't have a bias against PostgreSQL mostly need is developer time to help them with code. Drupal already supports Postgres; they need DBAs to help them be faster/better on Postgres. They are in the same boat with lots of other projects, so much so that there is more demand than there are PG volunteers. If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with someone. Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50. I do think that we could use a list of what other mature OSS projects support PostgreSQL reasonably well already. This is pretty much a data collection effort; are you volunteering for it? We could use it. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
I might not have been clear in my earlier post. OpenMFG, the ERP system, has run on PostgreSQL from day one. It's the ONLY database we run on. OpenMFG is not free software,but we have a source code license that accepts and encourages community contributions (of which there have beenmany). See www.openmfg.com for details on the product. We also recently spun up a new community website at www.openmfg.org. It's powered by the Drupal CMS, which Michael referencedin his original post. Drupal is one of those projects that has a lot of MySQL-specific yuckiness in it. Samething for Mantis, a bug tracker that is infinitely more functional than the built-in bugtracker in Drupal. So we'vedone three things for the .org website: 1) improved PostgreSQL support for Drupal 2) improved PostgreSQL support for Mantis 3) integrated Drupal and Mantis with a common PostgreSQL database Sorry for any confusion. We'll be releasing our patches at the main Drupal site soon, and there's also a forum on openmfg.orgdevoted to the changes we made. Cheers, Ned -- Ned Lilly President and CEO OpenMFG, LLC 119 West York Street Norfolk, VA 23510 tel. 757.461.3022 x101 email: ned@openmfg.com www.openmfg.com Ned Lilly wrote: > > > Michael Dean wrote: > >> 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major >> OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, >> like Drupal. > > Compiere has a religious preference for Oracle, money doesn't talk in > this instance. > > As for Drupal, OpenMFG will be posting its Postgres port support (as > well as for Drupal integration with the Mantis bugtracker). We use both > for our community site, www.openmfg.org. > Regards, > Ned >
> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
> That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.
Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
J
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.
Does anyone have a handle on what the problems are? Is it something
that could reasonably be fixed by a Postgres person, or is the real
problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu?
If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with?
regards, tom lane
Dropping -hackers. On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 10:18:00AM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > Michael, > > Howdy, glad to see you came back. > > > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. > > Not really in line with PostgreSQL's "personality". This could work for > OpenOffice, but not here. PG is a very engineering-central project and there > aren't many people who want to change that. > > Your other comments have been mostly answered, but: > > > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. > > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very > > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. > > > > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major > > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, > > like Drupal. > > Actually, what projects who don't have a bias against PostgreSQL mostly need > is developer time to help them with code. Drupal already supports Postgres; > they need DBAs to help them be faster/better on Postgres. They are in the > same boat with lots of other projects, so much so that there is more demand > than there are PG volunteers. > > If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with > someone. Even better would be if we had someplace where projects looking for help could go to find volunteers. I think there's a lot of people who use PostgreSQL and would like to contribute back to the community, but aren't really able to help from a code standpoint. This would be a great way for them to get involved. > Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, > doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. > That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50. > > I do think that we could use a list of what other mature OSS projects support > PostgreSQL reasonably well already. This is pretty much a data collection > effort; are you volunteering for it? We could use it. +1 -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
> > example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
> > too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
> > $50.
>
> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
>
It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert Treat wrote:
> On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
>>> example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
>>> too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
>>> $50.
>> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
>>
>
> It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
> database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
> some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
> you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?
Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or
ODBCng with OO.
Joshua D. Drake
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Robert Treat wrote: > >On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >>>Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for > >>>example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still > >>>too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not > >>>$50. > >>Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? > >> > > > >It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if > >database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find > >some third party software and download it and install it in order to > >work... you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user > >adoption? > > Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or > ODBCng with OO. The ODBC interface is less powerful for OOo than their own SDBC interface AFAIK (which is why they developed it). So while it would be good to have an ODBC driver in there, the SDBC driver will also continue to be developed. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
On Friday 19 May 2006 11:22 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for > > example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still > > too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not > > $50. > > Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? > > J FYI the OO native Postgresql driver is located at- http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html The author has a fairly detailed listing of features as well as limitations. -- Adrian Klaver aklaver@comcast.net
I will donate $1,000, specifically for this driver.
If it requires more ... then ideally someone else should pick up the diff.
I'll send the check today if I get a confirm that the $ will be directed specifically at this need.
Thanks,
Mike
Adrian Klaver wrote:
If it requires more ... then ideally someone else should pick up the diff.
I'll send the check today if I get a confirm that the $ will be directed specifically at this need.
Thanks,
Mike
Adrian Klaver wrote:
On Friday 19 May 2006 11:22 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote:Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? JFYI the OO native Postgresql driver is located at- http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html The author has a fairly detailed listing of features as well as limitations.
Mike Ellsworth wrote: > I will donate $1,000, specifically for this driver. > > If it requires more ... then ideally someone else should pick up the diff. > > I'll send the check today if I get a confirm that the $ will be directed > specifically at this need. Woooah slow down :) Lets get that submitted through SPI so it is a write off. CMD would be willing to kick in 500.00 as well. Joshua D. Drake > > Thanks, > Mike > > > > > > Adrian Klaver wrote: >> On Friday 19 May 2006 11:22 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >>>> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for >>>> example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still >>>> too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not >>>> $50. >>>> >>> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? >>> >>> J >>> >> FYI the OO native Postgresql driver is located at- >> http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html >> The author has a fairly detailed listing of features as well as limitations. >> >> > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Guys, > Woooah slow down :) Lets get that submitted through SPI so it is a write > off. CMD would be willing to kick in 500.00 as well. I will contact the developer to see if money will make a difference. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Folks, Ok, sent an e-mail to Joerg. In addition to time/money for debugging and feature completion from an OOo developer, the other thing that's needed is members of our community to join the DBA project and participate actively in debugging. http://dba.openoffice.org/index.html http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
Mike Ellsworth wrote: > I will donate $1,000, specifically for this driver. > > If it requires more ... then ideally someone else should pick up the diff. > > I'll send the check today if I get a confirm that the $ will be directed > specifically at this need. > > Thanks, > Mike > > > > > > Adrian Klaver wrote: >> On Friday 19 May 2006 11:22 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >>>> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for >>>> example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still >>>> too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not >>>> $50. >>>> >>> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? actually JDBC, ODBC and even that SDBC driver available for OO and postgres work quite well - however for some reason OO wants to parse the SQL expression with its own naive SQL parser befor anything gets sent to the database. So in the end beside some simple select foo from bartable there is not much you can do with it. (JOIN? Group by? function call? Forget it ;) So I think not only the driver (and the bundling) but overall support of SQL and specifiacally some dialect specifics of postgres should come in. Regards Tino Wildenhain
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 02:45:45PM -0700, David Fetter wrote: > > 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications > > around the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to > > base their software on. A good example, the educators who wrote > > LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely > > with mysql. > > With what resources? I have a theory that there's a lot of people who would love to help the community, but since they're not good enough to work on the backend they doubt there's anything else they can do. This is something that they could do, we'd just need to provide a place for these people to get in touch with each other and promote it. -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
Tom Lane wrote: > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: >> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, >> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. > > That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix. +1 (or +10 if that's not to piggy ;-)
Michael Dean <mdean@sourceview.com> writes: > Greetings Guys > > As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I > think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have read all 5000 or so > of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO: > > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social > bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of > postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. And this is a problem why? You seem to have mistaken this as some sort of commercial project that needs to return a profit or some sort of evangelical movement. It is neither. The contributors get the benefit of a good database which for whatever varied reasons satisfies their needs. > 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. After all, > mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically, > vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to > the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out! I do agree with this point (though not the rationale). Bashing mysql (or Oracle) doesn't really accomplish much to improve Postgres or help Postgres users. There is some room for "let's avoid the mistakes others have made" or "learn from what others have done well", but there's an awful lot of contentless "mysql sucks" threads too. Personally I have "mysql" killfiled in these lists. -- greg