Thread: Major donors (was: [pgsql-www] Where to put the new donations page?)

On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 10:54:52AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
>     2) Do major (> $1000) financial sponsors get to be Sponsors at
> www.postgresql.org/about/Sponsors, or do we put them somewhere else?  (we'll
> probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).

Since I haven't seen this on -advocacy yet...

The only argument I can think of for seperating large donors from
corporate sponsors is that some folks might have rather different levels
of interest about each one. Having a number of corporations officially
sponsoring the project arguably carries more weight than the same number
of individual believers, even if they do have deep pockets.

It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is quite
a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but the smallest
companies.

But of course, my opinions might be a bit biased here... :)
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

On Wednesday 22 March 2006 07:45, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 10:54:52AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> >     2) Do major (> $1000) financial sponsors get to be Sponsors at
> > www.postgresql.org/about/Sponsors, or do we put them somewhere else?
> > (we'll probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).
>
> Since I haven't seen this on -advocacy yet...
>
> The only argument I can think of for seperating large donors from
> corporate sponsors is that some folks might have rather different levels
> of interest about each one. Having a number of corporations officially
> sponsoring the project arguably carries more weight than the same number
> of individual believers, even if they do have deep pockets.
>
> It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is quite
> a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but the smallest
> companies.
>
> But of course, my opinions might be a bit biased here... :)

Perhaps a link on the sponsors page that is "individual sponsors" and list
those people that sponsor a significant amount.  Though saying that I'm not
sure what qualifies as a significant amount, perhaps as low as 100.00.  And
when i say Individual sponsosr I'm thinking small companies as well, Because
as you say large sums are easy for large companies, but not so easy for small
companies who are using PG as a core part of thier business.  Perhaps
something simular to the way that PHK listed all those people that sponsored
him to do fbsd development.

http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/donations.html
http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/funding.html

--
Darcy Buskermolen
Wavefire Technologies Corp.

http://www.wavefire.com
ph: 250.717.0200
fx: 250.763.1759

On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:20:20AM -0800, Darcy Buskermolen wrote:
> On Wednesday 22 March 2006 07:45, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 10:54:52AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > >     2) Do major (> $1000) financial sponsors get to be Sponsors at
> > > www.postgresql.org/about/Sponsors, or do we put them somewhere else?
> > > (we'll probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).
> >
> > Since I haven't seen this on -advocacy yet...
> >
> > The only argument I can think of for seperating large donors from
> > corporate sponsors is that some folks might have rather different levels
> > of interest about each one. Having a number of corporations officially
> > sponsoring the project arguably carries more weight than the same number
> > of individual believers, even if they do have deep pockets.
> >
> > It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is quite
> > a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but the smallest
> > companies.
> >
> > But of course, my opinions might be a bit biased here... :)
>
> Perhaps a link on the sponsors page that is "individual sponsors" and list
> those people that sponsor a significant amount.  Though saying that I'm not
> sure what qualifies as a significant amount, perhaps as low as 100.00.  And
> when i say Individual sponsosr I'm thinking small companies as well, Because
> as you say large sums are easy for large companies, but not so easy for small
> companies who are using PG as a core part of thier business.  Perhaps
> something simular to the way that PHK listed all those people that sponsored
> him to do fbsd development.
>
> http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/donations.html
> http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/funding.html

As one of the small businesses that has contributed and plans to contribute
more (the postgres pin business :)  I would appreciate my small contribution
recognized.  It is actually a fair amount of work and in very small businesses
like mine both money and bandwidth is at a premium.

I don't like the separation of big'uns and little'uns.  We all do what we
can.

--elein

--------------------------------------------------------------
elein@varlena.com        Varlena, LLC        www.varlena.com
(510)655-2584(o)                             (510)543-6079(c)

          PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training

PostgreSQL General Bits   http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.


>
> --
> Darcy Buskermolen
> Wavefire Technologies Corp.
>
> http://www.wavefire.com
> ph: 250.717.0200
> fx: 250.763.1759
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

Jim,

Well, this is my general idea.  We'd divide the sponsors page into:

Code Contributors
    current developer sponsors here

Hosting Sponsors
    hub, ehpg, cmd, etc.

Financial Sponsors
    Major Sponsors
        $10,000+ annual corporate gifts
    Sponsors
        other corporate gifts, $1000-$10,000
        plus in-kind support
    Individuals (link to page)

However, the "ad-hoc fundraising group" has yet to discuss actual donor
levels.  Plus, "Financial Sponsors" *must* include donors to JPUG,
PostgresqlFR and FFIV Germany as well as PostgreSQL at SPI.

I've thought about some relativist approaches but they don't really seem
appropriate for a donor credits page -- all they would do is result in the
big companies giving less, which is not what we want.

Oh, one more note:  I'd like to phase out the banner ads by using sponsor
listings instead.  No other major OSS project I know of uses banners ads
on their site; it's time to shut them down.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

jnasby@pervasive.com ("Jim C. Nasby") writes:
> It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is
> quite a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but
> the smallest companies.

I suspect it's a more significant thing, in fact, if a project
attracts contributions from 50 individuals that add to $1000 (that's a
mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.

I'd expect getting 50 people to take the (pretty nominal) action to be
more difficult than to get one person to sign off on $10K.

If a project needs $10K, the latter is obviously necessary;
demonstrating the "grass roots support" of the first $1K would be
quite compelling to the folks with bigger purse strings...
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/internet.html
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 03:07:23PM -0500, Chris Browne wrote:
> jnasby@pervasive.com ("Jim C. Nasby") writes:
> > It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is
> > quite a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but
> > the smallest companies.
>
> I suspect it's a more significant thing, in fact, if a project
> attracts contributions from 50 individuals that add to $1000 (that's a
> mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.

I don't know about that; people tend to get a 'warm-fuzzy' when they
find out that major corporations are using/promoting/contributing to
PostgreSQL.
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 03:07:23PM -0500, Chris Browne wrote:
>> jnasby@pervasive.com ("Jim C. Nasby") writes:
>>> It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is
>>> quite a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but
>>> the smallest companies.
>> I suspect it's a more significant thing, in fact, if a project
>> attracts contributions from 50 individuals that add to $1000 (that's a
>> mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.
>
> I don't know about that; people tend to get a 'warm-fuzzy' when they
> find out that major corporations are using/promoting/contributing to
> PostgreSQL.


My experience is that in order to get "Major Sponsors" they have to be
listed as such. Companies don't give to OSS projects for the heck of it.
They want something in return.

That being said, there is a ton of "donations" that happen that make
people major sponsors.

Every member of core is a major sponsor.

Red Hat is a major sponsor because they pay Tom, but Tom is a major
sponsor because I know he spends well more then 40 hours a week on this
project.

As sponsors page that will delineate between size of monetary
contribution is going to cause problems with those who donate a great
deal of in-kind contributions.

Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that
worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....

Frankly I would say:

Two pages, one for businesses, on for individuals. To qualify to be
on the page you have to donate more then "X" in-kind + dollars.

The pages are alphabetical, no graphics.

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Jim C. Nasby wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 03:07:23PM -0500, Chris Browne wrote:
>>
>>> jnasby@pervasive.com ("Jim C. Nasby") writes:
>>>
>>>> It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is
>>>> quite a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but
>>>> the smallest companies.
>>>
>>> I suspect it's a more significant thing, in fact, if a project
>>> attracts contributions from 50 individuals that add to $1000 (that's a
>>> mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.
>>
>>
>> I don't know about that; people tend to get a 'warm-fuzzy' when they
>> find out that major corporations are using/promoting/contributing to
>> PostgreSQL.
>

>> ..........
>
>
> Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that
> worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....
>
> Frankly I would say:
>
> Two pages, one for businesses, on for individuals. To qualify to be
> on the page you have to donate more then "X" in-kind + dollars.
>
> The pages are alphabetical, no graphics.
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
Without comment or opinion on the eventual approach, "cut-off $" or
monetization of non-cash contributions, a person/entity should receive a
brief "Thank you!" directly from PostgreSQL.org  -  regardless of the
size of the $$ contribution.  As it is now, if you go the SPI route, you
get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.

Not everyone needs or wants to have their names in lights, but I am
reasonably sure that anyone donating via SPI would at least like to know
that PG received the funds and that the contribution, however minute,
was received and appreciated.  There may be a timing issue on the funds
transfer, but somehow/someway/sometime, a Thank You needs to be triggered.

$10 may be peanuts to some, but not everywhere in the world.  Elephants
like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

> get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.
> Not everyone needs or wants to have their names in lights, but I am
> reasonably sure that anyone donating via SPI would at least like to know
> that PG received the funds and that the contribution, however minute,
> was received and appreciated.  There may be a timing issue on the funds
> transfer, but somehow/someway/sometime, a Thank You needs to be triggered.
> $10 may be peanuts to some, but not everywhere in the world.  Elephants
> like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

Absolutely!

Joshua D. Drake



>
>
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> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 12:37, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> As sponsors page that will delineate between size of monetary
> contribution is going to cause problems with those who donate a great
> deal of in-kind contributions.
>
> Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that
> worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....
>

ISTM if you are distributing flyers/business cards with your name over
them, your already getting a return on your time investment at a given
show, especially in cases like oscon where the booth is provided to the
project for free.  If you are paying to get postgresql entry into the
conference (like was recently discussed in the dubai thread) then that
might be a little different, but I think we need some kind of
delineation between companies who pay developer salaries, people who
staff booths where they get to advertise their wares, and people who
send in a check (Well, that assumes the goal isn't just to compile the
largest list of sponsors we can, but actually give real recognition to
those who continually sponsor this project and the folks who might give
a one time donation).


Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Mike,

> Without comment or opinion on the eventual approach, "cut-off $" or
> monetization of non-cash contributions, a person/entity should receive a
> brief "Thank you!" directly from PostgreSQL.org  -  regardless of the
> size of the $$ contribution.  As it is now, if you go the SPI route, you
> get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.

This is a technical problem that hopefully we'll have worked out soon.  I'm
supposed to get a list of donors on a monthly or bi-monthly basis so that
I can send them thank-you e-mails.  Unfortunately, there seems to be some
problem with this process that we haven't figured out yet.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 01:34:46PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 12:37, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > As sponsors page that will delineate between size of monetary
> > contribution is going to cause problems with those who donate a great
> > deal of in-kind contributions.
> >
> > Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that
> > worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....
> >
>
> ISTM if you are distributing flyers/business cards with your name over
> them, your already getting a return on your time investment at a given
> show, especially in cases like oscon where the booth is provided to the
> project for free.  If you are paying to get postgresql entry into the
> conference (like was recently discussed in the dubai thread) then that
> might be a little different, but I think we need some kind of
> delineation between companies who pay developer salaries, people who
> staff booths where they get to advertise their wares, and people who
> send in a check (Well, that assumes the goal isn't just to compile the
> largest list of sponsors we can, but actually give real recognition to
> those who continually sponsor this project and the folks who might give
> a one time donation).
>

If all I did was to staff a booth at conferences and hand out cards, then you
might have a point.  However, this is not the case for me.  I created
PostgreSQL flyers (not varlena flyers).  I organize the pin effort. I help organize
the booth.  I work with the oscon committee. I give talks at conferences and user
groups which require preparation.  I write a semi-weekly column with a huge archive.
I do get a little marketing visibility in there but believe me I work and pay for
it dearly since most of what I do goes to educating the postgresql user community for free.

This is just me.  Certain other people also do not get paid for their work
and time above and beyond self-interest.  We consider it our contribution
back to the community.  This, I believe, is how and why open source works.

Why does it bother you to acknowledge work and time of others?  (That is a
rhetorical question.)

--elein
--------------------------------------------------------------
elein@varlena.com        Varlena, LLC        www.varlena.com
          PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training
PostgreSQL General Bits   http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.


>
> Robert Treat
> --
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

Mike,
 

Without comment or opinion on the eventual approach, "cut-off $" or
monetization of non-cash contributions, a person/entity should receive a
brief "Thank you!" directly from PostgreSQL.org  -  regardless of the
size of the $$ contribution.  As it is now, if you go the SPI route, you
get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.   

This is a technical problem that hopefully we'll have worked out soon.  I'm 
supposed to get a list of donors on a monthly or bi-monthly basis so that 
I can send them thank-you e-mails.  Unfortunately, there seems to be some 
problem with this process that we haven't figured out yet.
 

Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> This will be a good.  Black holes can provoke a sense of
> wonderment, followed immediately by a facial tic.  :-)

Hmm ... that seems radically different from my experience observing the
interactions between black holes and spaceships ... in movies, that is.

--
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Folks,

This is why I said "It's not fully discussed ..." because it's not.
In-kind gifts are particularly a big issue that will take some working
out.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Thursday 23 March 2006 14:20, elein wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 01:34:46PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 12:37, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > As sponsors page that will delineate between size of monetary
> > > contribution is going to cause problems with those who donate a great
> > > deal of in-kind contributions.
> > >
> > > Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that
> > > worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....
> >
> > ISTM if you are distributing flyers/business cards with your name over
> > them, your already getting a return on your time investment at a given
> > show, especially in cases like oscon where the booth is provided to the
> > project for free.  If you are paying to get postgresql entry into the
> > conference (like was recently discussed in the dubai thread) then that
> > might be a little different, but I think we need some kind of
> > delineation between companies who pay developer salaries, people who
> > staff booths where they get to advertise their wares, and people who
> > send in a check (Well, that assumes the goal isn't just to compile the
> > largest list of sponsors we can, but actually give real recognition to
> > those who continually sponsor this project and the folks who might give
> > a one time donation).
>
> If all I did was to staff a booth at conferences and hand out cards, then
> you might have a point.  However, this is not the case for me.

I guess I have to point out that my above statement was not directed at you
specifically?  We get a lot of companies that staff booths at a lot of shows.
Honestly I am glad that they do, from what I have seen they represent the
community in a fantastic way.  But do we have to turn a blind eye to the fact
that some of these people are their for commercial purposes, and they they
are served well by that exposure, and that they are not getting raw deal out
of it?

> I created
> PostgreSQL flyers (not varlena flyers).  I organize the pin effort. I help
> organize the booth.  I work with the oscon committee. I give talks at
> conferences and user groups which require preparation.  I write a
> semi-weekly column with a huge archive. I do get a little marketing
> visibility in there but believe me I work and pay for it dearly since most
> of what I do goes to educating the postgresql user community for free.
>

You "pay for it dearly"?  If your activities are hurting your business that
much, by all means cut back on them.

> This is just me.  Certain other people also do not get paid for their work
> and time above and beyond self-interest.  We consider it our contribution
> back to the community.  This, I believe, is how and why open source works.
>

Berkus has a nice way of laying out how all open source contributions are done
in some form of self-interests.  I tend to agree with it. Some people do open
source as a desire to say thanks, some do it as a way to promote certain
ideals, and some do it expecting to get paid for it.  I tend to care more
just that people contribute than as to exactly why they contribute, but I
don't feel the need to obfuscate these motivations either; if we want to
recognize specific types of contributions (like cash donations) then let's do
that. If people feel that this would discriminate too much against people who
have not contributed in that specific way, then let's make a "this person has
probably had some type of involvement with the postgresql project, or at
least has struggled through pronouncing the project name" list and we can
start signing people up for that I'm good either way... as Justin used to
post in his sig:

"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

But let's be honest with ourselves about what we're doing.

> Why does it bother you to acknowledge work and time of others?  (That is a
> rhetorical question.)
>

Really? It sounds more like an insult. And an ironic one at that given I have
been the primary driver of getting people added to the recognized developers
and corporations lists for the last couple of releases.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 17:35 -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> as Justin used to post in his sig:

Is this Justin Clift? Anyone knows whether he is around or not?

He is one who pushed me into -www team 5 years ago...
--
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PL/php, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Devrim,

> Is this Justin Clift? Anyone knows whether he is around or not?
>
> He is one who pushed me into -www team 5 years ago...

He's still around.  He and I swapped places; he became heavily involved in
OpenOffice.org and I dropped OOo for Postgres.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 14:52 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Is this Justin Clift? Anyone knows whether he is around or not?
> >
> > He is one who pushed me into -www team 5 years ago...
>
> He's still around.  He and I swapped places; he became heavily
> involved in
> OpenOffice.org and I dropped OOo for Postgres.

Thanks for the update. Let me e-mail him (if his previous e-mail still
works...)

Regards,
--
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PL/php, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

On Mar 23, 2006, at 7:16 PM, Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> $10 may be peanuts to some, but not everywhere in the world.
> Elephants like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

Heh, that reminds me, for those that haven't seen it, we have a new
advertising campaign/motto/whateveryouwanttocallit; "Massive database
power... for peanuts!"
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461