Thread: [pgsql-www] New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Hey guys,

Last week during pgconf.eu in Warsaw, we had a developers meeting 
dedicated to graphic tools.

You can find more details on this wiki page :
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_Graphic_Tools_Developper_Meeting_2017

and here's a more opinionated reports I wrote :
http://blog.taadeem.net/english/2017/10/30/lets_build_better_graphic_tools_for_postgresql


To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to have 
a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings and 
share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting 
libraries, etc.

The list could be named "pgsql-gui" (for "Graphical User Interface") or 
"pgsql-gui-dev" to emphasize that it's primarily for developers, not for 
users support... The mailing list would be open to anyone, with public 
archives.

I did not find documentation on how to ask for a list, so I'm posting it 
here. Let me know if there's another way to ask for it or if you have 
any questions about it....

Regards,

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On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
<snip>
> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
> libraries, etc.

This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)

+ Justin


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On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
> <snip>
>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>> libraries, etc.
> 
> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)

I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great 
idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going 
to argue, just my 02 cents.

Either way, it is great to see this moving forward,

JD



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Le 31.10.2017 22:54, Joshua D. Drake a écrit :
> On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
>> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>>> libraries, etc.
>> 
>> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)
> 
> I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great
> idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going
> to argue, just my 02 cents.
> 

This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing 
list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new 
one

In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the 
current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits

* pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
* pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a 
place to discuss any tool...
* pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces


In fact this new list would be pretty much like pgsql-cluster-hackers 
(btw we could call it pgsql-gui-hackers to stay consistent) in that it's 
not a place with a huge traffic but it's useful to connect various 
groups working in the same domain.

I don't know, maybe we can open a list and make a test for 6 or 12 
months and then if it's not useful or misused we can classify it as 
"inactive" ?

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Sounds great. Sign me up.

On 30 October 2017 at 18:27, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> Last week during pgconf.eu in Warsaw, we had a developers meeting dedicated
> to graphic tools.
>
> You can find more details on this wiki page :
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_Graphic_Tools_Developper_Meeting_2017
>
> and here's a more opinionated reports I wrote :
> http://blog.taadeem.net/english/2017/10/30/lets_build_better_graphic_tools_for_postgresql
>
>
> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to have a
> special mailing list where we could organize further meetings and share
> experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting libraries, etc.
>
> The list could be named "pgsql-gui" (for "Graphical User Interface") or
> "pgsql-gui-dev" to emphasize that it's primarily for developers, not for
> users support... The mailing list would be open to anyone, with public
> archives.
>
> I did not find documentation on how to ask for a list, so I'm posting it
> here. Let me know if there's another way to ask for it or if you have any
> questions about it....
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Damien Clochard
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www



-- 
Neil Anderson
neil@postgrescompare.com
https://www.postgrescompare.com



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> On 01 Nov 2017, at 00:43, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
>
> Le 31.10.2017 22:54, Joshua D. Drake a écrit :
>> On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
>>> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>>>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>>>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>>>> libraries, etc.
>>> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)
>> I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great
>> idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going
>> to argue, just my 02 cents.
>
> This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing list but we should always check if it is
relevantbefore adding a new one 
>
> In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything
thatreally fits 
>
> * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a place to discuss any tool...
> * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces

I assume this list will also see frequent posts with screenshots/mockups and
other graphics attached, something that perhaps not every -hackers reader might
enjoy.

So, a definite +1 from me on creating a new list as a test.

cheers ./daniel

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> On Nov 1, 2017, at 01:31, Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se> wrote:
>
> I assume this list will also see frequent posts with screenshots/mockups and
> other graphics attached, something that perhaps not every -hackers reader might
> enjoy.
>
> So, a definite +1 from me on creating a new list as a test.

+1 as well.

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On 10/31/2017 04:43 PM, Damien Clochard wrote:

> This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing 
> list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new one
> 
> In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the 
> current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits
> 
> * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a 
> place to discuss any tool...
> * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces

I was thinking -admin might be appropriate as generally speaking that is 
what we are talking about with graphical clients, easy PostgreSQL 
Administration and it is already a very, very low volume list.

JD

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 10/31/2017 04:43 PM, Damien Clochard wrote:
> 
> > This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing
> > list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new
> > one
> > 
> > In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the
> > current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits
> > 
> > * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> > * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a
> > place to discuss any tool...
> > * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces
> 
> I was thinking -admin might be appropriate as generally speaking that is
> what we are talking about with graphical clients, easy PostgreSQL
> Administration and it is already a very, very low volume list.

I don't think the charter of the new list has anything to do with that
of pgsql-admin, other than the fact that both contain the substring
"admin".  A new pgsql-gui-hackers list seems like the way to go to me.

-- 
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PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services


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Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
> I don't think the charter of the new list has anything to do with that
> of pgsql-admin, other than the fact that both contain the substring
> "admin".  A new pgsql-gui-hackers list seems like the way to go to me.

+1.  My initial reaction was "use pgsql-interfaces", but on reflection
I agree that GUI concerns are outside the historical scope of that list.
        regards, tom lane


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+1

regards
PAscal

SQLeo visual query builder



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Hey guys,

Any news on this topic ?

It seems everyone is ok with the creation of a new list, but how do we 
proceed ? Do you want to migrate all the existing list to the new system 
before adding a new one ?

Let me know how I can help !

-- 
Damien Clochard

Hi,

I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have 
no idea how to proceed...

I understand that the PG Lister migration is time consuming, and I can 
wait if that's necessary. Just let me know how I can help  or what I 
should do !

Regards,

-- 
Damien Clochard

On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:

> I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
> idea how to proceed...

Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
feature.

As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".

If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
start writing them now? Why wait?

Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
code, then maybe a special list is worth having.

-- 
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PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On 30 November 2017 at 01:28, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have
>> > no
>> > idea how to proceed...
>>
>> Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
>> discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
>> feature.
>>
>> As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
>>
>> If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
>> start writing them now? Why wait?
>>
>> Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
>> code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>
>
> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset of
> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around the
> same time)
>
> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" has
> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, right?

Sure, but that wasn't my point.

-- 
Simon Riggs                http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

Magnus, all,

* Magnus Hagander (magnus@hagander.net) wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
> > On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
> > > idea how to proceed...
> >
> > Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
> > discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
> > feature.
> >
> > As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
> >
> > If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
> > start writing them now? Why wait?
> >
> > Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
> > code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>
> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset of
> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around the
> same time)
>
> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" has
> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, right?

I'm a bit concerned about adding yet-another-mailing-list too, and I'll
point to 'pgsql-cluster-hackers' as an even more recent case where we
added a list and it ended up dying off.

Now, it's a good point that cluster-hackers is also just another subset
of -hackers, and perhaps gui-dev is enough different that it won't
suffer from this issue, but I have to ask this:

What of pgadmin-hackers ?  That list certainly gets traffic on it
regularly as it's being actively developed, but are people expecting
that traffic to move to this new list?  If not, why not?  If it's
because there's not enough commonality between pgadmin and whatever the
list is for, then I'm confused as to the point of the list.  If the idea
is to move the pgadmin-hackers traffic over to this new list, then that
would settle my concerns that it ends up being a dead list.

If there's other active projects that need lists to facilitate the
development of the project, then that also seems more likely to be used
moving forward, but having one general list for what seems like a bunch
of independet projects strikes me as a bit odd, especially when the one
I'm most familiar with (pgadmin) is going to continue to be
independent (if that's the case, which I'm guessing it is..).

Thanks!

Stephen

Le 29.11.2017 15:24, Simon Riggs a écrit :
> On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> 
> wrote:
> 
>> I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have 
>> no
>> idea how to proceed...
> 
> Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
> discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
> feature.
> 
> As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
> 
> If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
> start writing them now? Why wait?
> 
> Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
> code, then maybe a special list is worth having.

To be honest my first intention was to set up a mailing list with google 
groups just after the Warsaw meeting and start discussions right away. 
But many people thought that having the list hosted on the 
postgresql.org infra would send a strong message that the Postgres 
community recognizes and supports the efforts to build better graphics 
tools. This is why I asked for a new list here.

Now if you ask "why Graphic tools developpers do not currently send 
their messages on some existing list ?". I would say that most of them 
are not deeply involved in the postgres community and they don't feel 
comfortable posting on the psql-hackers or some other lists because the 
Postgres community does not seem to be a very supportive for UI 
developpers and designers. I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying 
that psql-hackers does not sound like a place to discuss about UI/UX 
design :)

I've searched for an existing mailing lists where those discussions 
would be welcomed and I couldn't find any. If you have something to 
suggest, I'm all ears !

-- 
Damien Clochard

Le 29.11.2017 15:37, Stephen Frost a écrit :
> Magnus, all,
> 
> * Magnus Hagander (magnus@hagander.net) wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> 
>> wrote:
>> > On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <damien@dalibo.info> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
>> > > idea how to proceed...
>> >
>> > Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
>> > discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
>> > feature.
>> >
>> > As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
>> >
>> > If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
>> > start writing them now? Why wait?
>> >
>> > Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
>> > code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>> 
>> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset 
>> of
>> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around 
>> the
>> same time)
>> 
>> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" 
>> has
>> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, 
>> right?
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about adding yet-another-mailing-list too, and I'll
> point to 'pgsql-cluster-hackers' as an even more recent case where we
> added a list and it ended up dying off.
> 
> Now, it's a good point that cluster-hackers is also just another subset
> of -hackers, and perhaps gui-dev is enough different that it won't
> suffer from this issue, but I have to ask this:
> 
> What of pgadmin-hackers ?  That list certainly gets traffic on it
> regularly as it's being actively developed, but are people expecting
> that traffic to move to this new list?  If not, why not?  If it's
> because there's not enough commonality between pgadmin and whatever the
> list is for, then I'm confused as to the point of the list.  If the 
> idea
> is to move the pgadmin-hackers traffic over to this new list, then that
> would settle my concerns that it ends up being a dead list.
> 
> If there's other active projects that need lists to facilitate the
> development of the project, then that also seems more likely to be used
> moving forward, but having one general list for what seems like a bunch
> of independet projects strikes me as a bit odd, especially when the one
> I'm most familiar with (pgadmin) is going to continue to be
> independent (if that's the case, which I'm guessing it is..).
> 
> 

Hi !

If we had only a handful of graphic tools for Postgres, I would 
definitely agree with you. But so far we have identified 60 developers 
actively working on 35 different tools. Diversity is a chance for open 
source projects but at this level of fragmentation it begins to hurt 
everyone : developpers are wasting time and code on the same issues, 
same needs.

Our goal is not to unify every projects into one but we need a space to 
discuss about common APIs, compare charting libraries, frameworks, 
common libraries, standard JSON outputs, common design principles, 
shared experiences, etc.

You are right that this list could end up being a dead list. I cannot 
estimate how much traffic it will  receive. But I am positive that it is 
clearly not a subset of psql-hackers or any other list, or at least most 
of the 60 developers we have identified are not active on any other 
mailing lists of the community.

-- 
Damien Clochard

Greetings,

* Damien Clochard (damien@dalibo.info) wrote:
> If we had only a handful of graphic tools for Postgres, I would
> definitely agree with you. But so far we have identified 60
> developers actively working on 35 different tools. Diversity is a
> chance for open source projects but at this level of fragmentation
> it begins to hurt everyone : developpers are wasting time and code
> on the same issues, same needs.

I'm not really sure how having this mailing list is going to really help
that, but you've at least convinced me that there's people who are going
to subscribe to it and post to it, and that it's a different group than
the -hackers list.

I've gone ahead and created it, but if we end up in a year or two with
no recent traffic on it, I think we'll probably try to push to remove it
again (as I'm getting ready to do with a number of other dead lists..).

You should be able to log in and subscribe to the list here:

https://lists.postgresql.org/manage

The list is archived as the others are, here:

https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-gui-dev/2017-11/

And it's under 'Developer lists' through the website.

I'm currently the only moderator, so if things need moderation then
there might be a bit of delay.  If other folks want to help with the
moderation, that'd be great, just let me know.

Thanks!

Stephen