Thread: Postgres idea list
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Do people want an advocacy article written, like "How to choose a > database?" I could do that. That would be good, as would an updated "postgres vs mysql" article to point people towards. Or a "postgres myths debunked" page. > Basically, I am open to ideas. Would it help to fly me out to meet IT > leaders? More books/articles? What does it take? What do successful > companies and open source projects do that works? Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting around: 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. 2. Stop using the name "postmaster" as our daemon. Seriously. I've seen many a person, some new to *nix and some not, take a look at ps -Af and say "what the heck is that?" Whereas mysql uses "mysqld", cron uses "crond", ssh uses "sshd", and apache uses "httpd", we (postgres) use "postmaster." The name seems to imply something to do with email, and should be abandoned in favor of postgresd or postgresqld or even pgsqld. 3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single file, postgres.conf. Clean it up and simplify it. Have a command-line tool to make changes. Have a way to test out the changes, similar to "apachectl configtest" 4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result is 65 matches, and each one a filename. 5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and content. mySQL actually has this one right. 6. Moderate the lists better. There is a lot of traffic in general that should be going to other lists. Keep all the high-volume, nitty-gritty stuff on hackers, away from everyday users looking for help. 7. Stop underestimating mySQL. This is our competitor for the short-term at least, especially as both are open-source. Yes, we are better than mySQL on a technical level, but in all other areas they have us beat: * integration with other apps * mindshare * publicity * ease of install * ease of use * documentation * website navigation and appearance * coolness mySQL has the feel of an fun, open-source project. Postgres feels like a stuffy, academic project. At least that's the impression I get from asking people. All mySQL has to do at this point is improve their product, by adding things such as sub-selects and transactions. A tall order, but they are well on their way. We need to tackle all the items listed above. Not as easy, IMO, and we are not on our way. 8. Stop overestimating Oracle. Postgres is not a blip on their radar yet. We will probably never catch up to them. Focus instead on the shortcomings compared to our real rival (see above). Oracle should be emulated but not chased. 9. Have an easily accessible "todo" list that not only itemizes coding tasks, but documentation tasks, advocacy tasks, etc. so anyone can get involved and make contributions, no matter how minor. 10. Sign the source code (and other files) cryptographically. We are one of the last open-source projects that do not do this. What's to stop someone from breaking in to a mirror and replacing the tarball and md5 file? What if they did it on the main server? This is very easy to implement. 11. Consider an official name change to simply Postgres. Yes, there are historical reasons for this, but everyone I know ends up abbreviating it to postgres eventually anyway, and postgreSQL is a mouthful. 12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know, I know), a bug squashing contest with prizes, a short interactive "find the best database for you" quiz, etc. 13. Solve the benchmarking problem. Find out what it takes to get us benchmarking to the same standards as the commercial DBs. Find a neutral third-party to compare Postgres and mySQL. Publicize our outstanding results. Start a debate on slashdot about it. :) Put the ball in mySQL's court for once. 14. Other things: Offer a bz2 download to save people time and $$. Put a favicon.ico on the site. Put in a site map. Consider using postgres.org. Publicize every little change as if it were the best thing since sliced bread. Solicit more lists like this. Release more often, even if more minor: stick to beta deadlines strictly. Offer success stories. 15. Don't shoot the messenger. Some of this is my opinions, some is based on talking to "everyday users" and developers about Postgres. Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200206251441 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: http://www.turnstep.com/pgp.html iD8DBQE9GL2ovJuQZxSWSsgRAgKLAJ9zBJhw0SzDu0eXUhGSPuncGXGGdQCgua14 IC2aWSjcSEHYxDU1hZXnZmA= =GV5l -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Folks, > Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting > around: > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. etc .... I hereby nominate Greg as PostgreSQL.org Marketing Director. -- -Josh Berkus
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com> writes:
> Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
> around:
Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I
don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought
that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to
*do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me
to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and
other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been
doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty
good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with
marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder,
I think.
We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind
of work.
It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
concerns.
regards, tom lane
On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > 3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single > file, postgres.conf. I don't see why this would be a win. > Have a command-line tool to make changes. You mean like vi(1) ? :-) > Have a way to test out the changes, similar to "apachectl configtest" Not sure about this -- I can see the importance of testing out configuration changes, but AFAICS "pg_ctl configtest" would be little more than a glorified syntax check. I think we need to rely on DBA's to ensure that the configuration changes they make are valid. > 4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website > is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result > is 65 matches, and each one a filename. I've heard this from others as well. > 5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and > content. mySQL actually has this one right. Agreed. > Release more often, even if more minor: Why? I think the PostgreSQL release engineering process is good. > stick to beta deadlines strictly. Why? I'd much prefer that we release code when we are (relatively) sure it is ready for production use, rather than shoving experimental code out the door to meet an artificial and probably unrealistic release target. Cheers, Neil -- Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com> PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 21:31, Neil Conway wrote: > On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > 3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single > > file, postgres.conf. > > I don't see why this would be a win. What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.
Folks, > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and > postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files. I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it! -- -Josh Berkus
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Do people want an advocacy article written, like "How to choose a > > database?" I could do that. > > That would be good, as would an updated "postgres vs mysql" article > to point people towards. Or a "postgres myths debunked" page. > > > Basically, I am open to ideas. Would it help to fly me out to meet IT > > leaders? More books/articles? What does it take? What do successful > > companies and open source projects do that works? > > Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting > around: > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ... > 4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website > is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result > is 65 matches, and each one a filename. are you volunteering your time for this? > 5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and > content. mySQL actually has this one right. already being worked on by a group of programmers and web designers ... > 6. Moderate the lists better. There is a lot of traffic in general that > should be going to other lists. Keep all the high-volume, nitty-gritty > stuff on hackers, away from everyday users looking for help. again, are you volunteering your time for this?
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: > "Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com> writes: > > Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting > > around: > > Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I > don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought > that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to > *do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me > to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and > other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been > doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty > good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with > marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder, > I think. > > We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind > of work. > > It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a > technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best > list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we > shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach > concerns. You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ... pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :)
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT) "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses > > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. > > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ... Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the user-oriented mailing lists at http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically exist, it is well hidden. Cheers, Neil -- Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com> PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Folks, > > > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and > > postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely > > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files. > > I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of > our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it! Agreed about specifically focusing on PGAdmin, *but*, there are other interfaces that could really make use of such a feature ... PHPPgAdmin being one ... ... but, the first argument against this is what happens if/when someone puts in an entry in a 'pg_hba' table that blocks everyone from having access? Or similar changes ... If I recall correctly, the main argument against moving pg_hba (as an example) is that you would have to move the 'access restrictions' inside the backend (postgres) itself, instead of the front end (postmaster), creating a high probably of a DDoS attack being quite effective ...
Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin* But, you are right, should be advertised better ... I have some updates to do to archives over the next day or two, in order to add in -patches also ... As for your comments about 'filtering -general', there is nothing stopping anyone from doing what I'm doing with this ... CC'ng -advocacy and setting a Reply-To (wonder if that holds through majordomo?) over to -advocacy where this sort of stuff belongs ... :) Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Neil Conway wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT) > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses > > > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. > > > > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ... > > Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the > user-oriented mailing lists at > > http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html > > It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at > > http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php > > either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically > exist, it is well hidden. > > Cheers, > > Neil > > -- > Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com> > PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC >
Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin* But, you are right, should be advertised better ... I have some updates to do to archives over the next day or two, in order to add in -patches also ... As for your comments about 'filtering -general', there is nothing stopping anyone from doing what I'm doing with this ... CC'ng -advocacy and setting a Reply-To (wonder if that holds through majordomo?) over to -advocacy where this sort of stuff belongs ... :) Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Neil Conway wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT) > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses > > > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc. > > > > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org has been around for >1year now ... > > Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the > user-oriented mailing lists at > > http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html > > It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at > > http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php > > either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically > exist, it is well hidden. > > Cheers, > > Neil > > -- > Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com> > PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC >
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: >> It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a >> technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best >> list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we >> shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach >> concerns. > You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ... > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :) You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at http://archives.postgresql.org/ and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't. If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name -advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas. Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's. regards, tom lane
> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] > Sent: 26 June 2002 01:51 > To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > Cc: Rod Taylor > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > > Folks, > > > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf > > and postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could > write a lovely > > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to > the files. > > I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary > solution to any of > our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it! Just for info, *absolute* number 1 priority for the next major release of pgAdmin is to take the 5+ years of experience and rewrite the code in a more platform independent language. Regards, Dave.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Sabino Mullane [mailto:greg@turnstep.com] > Sent: 25 June 2002 20:04 > To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > Subject: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > 12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know, > I know), Isn't the elephant called Slonik? I vaguely remember picking that up from an existing alt tag when I redesigned the odbc site... Regards, Dave.
Hi Tom, Tom Lane wrote: > > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes: <snip> > > You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ... > > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org? :) > > You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at > http://archives.postgresql.org/ > and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't. > > If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name > -advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me > anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas. > Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of > flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's. There is already a pgsql-advocacy list (as was pointed out recently), but it's unused. Borrow a leaf from the OpenOffice.org project, how about a pgsql-marketing list? :-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift > > regards, tom lane > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
Daves, > Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have > started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication > of effort as a waste of time. Java has its drawbacks, but a JPgAdmin tool would significantly encourage Postgres-OpenOffice.org integration. -- -Josh Berkus
Dave, > What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be > circumvented? 1. Java is not Open Source. It's an open standard, but not OS. 2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current Postgres JDBC drivers. I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, here. 3. There are compatiblity issues between the various JVMs. We'd have to pick a particular JVM and stick with it, and get a lot of complaints from users on other JVMs. I don't know how serious the issues are. -- -Josh Berkus ______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________ Josh Berkus Complete informationtechnology josh@agliodbs.com and data management solutions (415) 565-7293 for law firms, small businesses fax 621-2533 and non-profit organizations. San Francisco
Dave, > 1) There is an open source implementation of java Really? I thought Sun had a patent. > 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots > of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think > writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better. That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java. > 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric > here. Cool. As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive. BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space. -Josh Berkus
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Sabino Mullane [mailto:greg@turnstep.com] > > Sent: 25 June 2002 20:04 > > To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > > Subject: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > > > > 12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know, > > I know), > > Isn't the elephant called Slonik? I vaguely remember picking that up it's fine. it's transliteration of russian translation of elephant (diminutive). > from an existing alt tag when I redesigned the odbc site... > > Regards, Dave. > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > > Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet, Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia) Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Cramer [mailto:Dave@micro-automation.net] > Sent: 26 June 2002 19:01 > To: Dave Page > Cc: josh@agliodbs.com; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Rod Taylor > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > Dave, > > Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I > have started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see > the duplication of effort as a waste of time. I do, but I've had nothing but bad experiences with Java though I'm open to new evidence/persuasion. I do agree that duplication of effort is not a good idea and I'm certainly not against collaborating on a new version though I must point out that having written pgAdmin from scratch twice now (three times if you cound my original proof of concept) over the last 5-6 years, I have *very* specific ideas on how pgAdmin should work. I guess what I'm trying to say is that as it's been *my* project for years (not forgetting the contributions from Jean-Michel & others), changing that and working as another member of a team would be *very* difficult for me. I hope you can understand this, having spent hundreds of hours and written 100,000+ lines of production code _almost_ single handedly it gets kinda personnal :-) Let me say now though, even if I do stay with my own version, if you ever need help don't hesitate to ask. Regards, Dave.
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:35:07 PDT, the world broke into rejoicing as Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> said: > > What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be > > circumvented? > > 1. Java is not Open Source. It's an open standard, but not OS. The problem is not with the language; it is with the layered libraries on top. It's reasonably usable as a server side language; the _real_ serious problems come in if you want to build a GUIed application, when your choice is between: a) A really klunky AWT UI that will be unacceptable to all, and b) A SWING UI that makes your application critically dependent on non-"open source" software. The old Java 1.01 stuff is fairly successfully "freely usable," but that's not what anyone wants to develop with. They want the cool new J2EE stuff, and it takes some serious research to figure out that you aren't going to be doing that with 'free software,' despite the existence of stuff like JBoss. You still need components that are Definitely Not Free. The answer is that someone has to implement a complete set of replacements for the SunSoft components under free licenses. That "circumvention" is a distinctly non-trivial task. > 2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current > Postgres JDBC drivers. I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, > here. I've not run into problems with them, but maybe my use hasn't been extensive enough :-). -- (concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@acm.org") http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html "Remember folks. Street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph." -- Jim Samuels
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin* It's on the subscription form. [snip] > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... all done. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 13:50, Josh Berkus wrote: > > BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There > seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space. I know for my PERSONAL stuff, commercial tools ($$) mean I don't even bother. I have some consulting clients, but using pay for stuff generally won't work for them, plus I can't usually afford the fees for my own use, so therefore are not conversant with the commercial tools. Nothing against them, but... Just my $.02 worth. -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749
> > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no > > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... > > all done. Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org? I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious link. Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically? Thanks,Rod
On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote: > > > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no > > > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... > > > > all done. > > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org? > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious > link. > > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically? I have no idea who does what on archives. I just yell at Marc if something's broke. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo atPop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
Rod Taylor <rbt@zort.ca> writes:
> Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> link.
> Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?
I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look
carefully to find the list I want.
regards, tom lane
will do it tonight :) On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: > Rod Taylor <rbt@zort.ca> writes: > > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org? > > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious > > link. > > > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically? > > I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look > carefully to find the list I want. > > regards, tom lane >
-patches added ... I've gotta redo that page, as it was just a 'quick-n-dirty' when I did it ... On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote: > > > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no > > > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ... > > > > all done. > > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org? > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious > link. > > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically? > > Thanks, > Rod > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > > >
http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better? On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > will do it tonight :) > > On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: > > > Rod Taylor <rbt@zort.ca> writes: > > > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org? > > > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious > > > link. > > > > > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically? > > > > I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look > > carefully to find the list I want. > > > > regards, tom lane > > > >
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes: > http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better? Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as developer lists there. Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not difficult. regards, tom lane
Dave, Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication of effort as a waste of time. Dave On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 09:45, Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] > > Sent: 26 June 2002 01:51 > > To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org > > Cc: Rod Taylor > > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf > > > and postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could > > write a lovely > > > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to > > the files. > > > > I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary > > solution to any of > > our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it! > > Just for info, *absolute* number 1 priority for the next major release > of pgAdmin is to take the 5+ years of experience and rewrite the code in > a more platform independent language. > > Regards, Dave. > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly > > >
Josh, 1) There is an open source implementation of java 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better. 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric here. Dave On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:35, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Dave, > > > What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be > > circumvented? > > 1. Java is not Open Source. It's an open standard, but not OS. > > 2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current > Postgres JDBC drivers. I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, here. > > 3. There are compatiblity issues between the various JVMs. We'd have to pick > a particular JVM and stick with it, and get a lot of complaints from users on > other JVMs. I don't know how serious the issues are. > > -- > -Josh Berkus > > ______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________ > Josh Berkus > Complete information technology josh@agliodbs.com > and data management solutions (415) 565-7293 > for law firms, small businesses fax 621-2533 > and non-profit organizations. San Francisco > >
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Dave, > > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java > > Really? I thought Sun had a patent. www.blackdown.org > > > 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots > > of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think > > writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better. > > That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business > accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java. That's awesome, have you looked at compiere? www.sf.net/projects/compiere > > > 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric > > here. > > Cool. As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive. > > BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools? There > seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space. Ya, they're on the list > > -Josh Berkus > >
Josh, What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be circumvented? Dave On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:08, Josh Berkus wrote: > Daves, > > > Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have > > started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication > > of effort as a waste of time. > > Java has its drawbacks, but a JPgAdmin tool would significantly encourage > Postgres-OpenOffice.org integration. > > -- > -Josh Berkus > >
> > Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front > > (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not > > difficult. > > Better? > > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc > > The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work > on again ... I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage. Much better. Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism.
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote: > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes: > > http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better? > > Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with > the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as > developer lists there. > > Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front > (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not > difficult. Better? http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work on again ...
On 26 Jun 2002 14:36:15 EDT, the world broke into rejoicing as Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net> said: > Josh, > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java > 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots > of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think > writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better. > 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric > here. There are "free software" implementations of Java compilers and of Java Virtual Machines. Are there suitable "free software" implementations of _all_ the libraries that you will be needing to construct the admin tool? In particular, can you direct us to a free software implementation of Swing? I doubt that you can, and _that_ is the characteristic problem with Java. The language is "free enough," but the libraries you will want to use aren't... -- (concatenate 'string "chris" "@cbbrowne.com") http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html HAKMEM ITEM 163 (Sussman): To exchange two variables in LISP without using a third variable: (SETQ X (PROG2 0 Y (SETQ Y X)))
On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote: > > > Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front > > > (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not > > > difficult. > > > > Better? > > > > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc > > > > The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work > > on again ... > > I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage. > > Much better. > > Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when > there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism. two different methods of searching ... those pages still need one helluva lot of cleanups though, as I shoudl re-word that 'Search the archives' as something more like 'Alternative methods of searching' or something like that, and point to FTS and Google ...
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Cramer [mailto:Dave@micro-automation.net] > Sent: 27 June 2002 12:12 > To: Dave Page > Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list > > > Dave, > > Thanks for the response. > > On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 15:21, Dave Page wrote: > > > > > > I do, but I've had nothing but bad experiences with Java though I'm > > open to new evidence/persuasion. I do agree that > duplication of effort > > is not a good idea and I'm certainly not against collaborating on a > > new version though I must point out that having written > pgAdmin from > > scratch twice now (three times if you cound my original proof of > > concept) over the last 5-6 years, I have *very* specific > ideas on how > > pgAdmin should work. > > I've heard this "bad experience" thing a few times and I > would like to understand this better. I have been developing > in java for quite some time now, and have no worse, or better > time with it. Most recently, the Cisco Visual Switch manager app that's in the firmware of my 2950-24 switches which won't run on any Linux or Win32 system I've got within 6 feet of me. You'd think they'd get it right. I have often found that applets from various places give exception errors and refuse to run. Others are extremely slow. On the plus side, there is a Java Telnet app that I used to use that was *very* good. > > Let me say now though, even if I do stay with my own > version, if you > > ever need help don't hesitate to ask. > > > Thanks very much for the offer, actually your code is quite helpful. :-) Regards, Dave.
On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > > Dave, > > > > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java > > > > Really? I thought Sun had a patent. > www.blackdown.org I'd rather not call this open source. From the source tree: Copyright 2001 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 901 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto, California 94303, U.S.A. All rights reserved. This product or document is protected by copyright and distributed under licenses restricting its use, copying, distribution, and decompilation. No part of this product or document may be reproduced in any form by any means without prior written authorization of Sun and its licensors, if any. Third-party software, including font technology, is copyrighted and licensed from Sun suppliers. Sun, Sun Microsystems, the Sun Logo, Java, JDK, the Java Coffee Cup logo, JavaBeans, and JDBC are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the U.S. and other countries. All SPARC trademarks are used under license and are trademarks or registered trademarks of SPARC International, Inc. in the U.S. and other countries. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael@Fam-Meskes.De Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
http://www.kaffe.org/ On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Michael Meskes wrote: > On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > > On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > > > > Dave, > > > > > > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java > > > > > > Really? I thought Sun had a patent. > > www.blackdown.org > > I'd rather not call this open source. From the source tree: > > Copyright 2001 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 901 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto, > California 94303, U.S.A. All rights reserved. > > This product or document is protected by copyright and distributed under > licenses restricting its use, copying, distribution, and decompilation. > No part > of this product or document may be reproduced in any form by any means > without > prior written authorization of Sun and its licensors, if any. > Third-party > software, including font technology, is copyrighted and licensed from > Sun > suppliers. > > Sun, Sun Microsystems, the Sun Logo, Java, JDK, the Java Coffee Cup > logo, JavaBeans, > and JDBC > are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the > U.S. > and other countries. > > All SPARC trademarks are used under license and are > trademarks or registered trademarks of SPARC International, Inc. in the > U.S. and other countries. > > Michael > -- > Michael Meskes > Michael@Fam-Meskes.De > Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! > Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > > >