Thread: Let's Do the CoC Right

Fellow PostgreSQLers,

I can’t help that there are a whole lot of white guys working on this document, with very little feedback from the
peoplewho it’s likely to benefit (only exception I spotted in a quick scan was Regina; sorry if I missed you). I
suspectthat most of you, like me, have never been the target of the kinds os behaviors we want to forbid. Certainly not
tothe level of many women, transgendered, and people of color I know of personally, in this community and others, who
have.If those people are not speaking up here, I suspect it’s because they don’t expect to be heard. A bunch of white
guyswho run the project have decided what it’s gonna be, and mostly cut things out since these threads started. 

But a *whole* lot of thought has gone into the creation of CoCs by the people who need them, and those who care about
them.They have considered what sorts of things should be covered, what topics specifically addressed, and how to word
themso as to enable the most people possible to feel safe, and to appropriately address issues when they inevitably
arise,so that people continue to feel safe. 

So I’d like to propose that we not try to do this ourselves. Instead, I propose that we take advantage of the ton of
thoughtothers have already put into this, and simply: 

* Follow the example of many other successful communities (Swift, Mono, Rails, and 10,000 others) and adopt the
open-sourceContributor Covenant, unmodified. 

 http://contributor-covenant.org

* Put this document in the root directory of the project as CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md, so that anyone who wants to contribute
can.It should also be listed on the main web site and referenced from appropriate places (such as the mail lists
pages).

* Spell out a policy and procedure for enforcement and include it as a separate document, again in the Git rep and on
thesite. The reporting address should be included in the Covenant. The Covenant web site has links to a number of
existingguides we ought to crib from. 

Best,

David

(Replying to the digest post)

Having watched this discussion from the start, I think the project
would be better off without any CoC.  The list has always been
conducted well and if something isn't broken you shouldn't try to fix
it.

--
Oliver Elphick
Lincolnshire, England

Oliver Elphick wrote:
> (Replying to the digest post)
>
> Having watched this discussion from the start, I think the project
> would be better off without any CoC.  The list has always been
> conducted well and if something isn't broken you shouldn't try to fix
> it.

FWIW, I agree that we don't need a CoC.

However, those of us who have never been attacked/abused would naturally
state that there have never been any attacks/abuses, and I believe
that's false -- in other words I believe some people would consider
themselves to have been attacked/abused, even if some external observers
might not necessarily agree that they were being attacked/abused.

--
Álvaro Herrera                http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

This is mostly in response to David's recent comments.  I should say David,
you are really beginning to make me feel unsafe.
By unsafe I mean my mental safety of being able to speak truthfully without
fear of being kicked out of a community I love.

I do not think we need a Coc and if we do, it's only to protect me from
people like this Kurtis guy:

https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/690637345972981760

So if we have a Coc, I want all people who are on Core and Coc committee  to
be exempt from it.  Because if I can't trust them I can't trust anybody in
the PostgreSQL group.

So here are some comments to your comments David:


> 3. If I understand correctly, the impetus for adopting a CoC (which,
believe me, I laud in no uncertain terms) was this post by Randi Harper
about her experience reporting abuse to the FreeBSD community:

  >
http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/

> Ideally, by adopting a CoC and an enforcement policy, we can try to
prevent bad experiences for people reporting abuse. However, in this
example, the abuse, which came from a
> FreeBSD committer and was aimed at another, took place on Twitter, not in
a FreeBSD forum. However, the rules of the FreeBSD community at that time
did not cover abuse outside
> sanctioned community forums. As a result, the FreeBSd core:

I brought that up by the way and is what broke my camel's back about simply
ignoring this nonsense and going about my business doing PostGIS and tech
writing.
I personally went and talked to all the people that supposedly harassed
Randi and guess what?
They happened to be very nice people, that seemed emotionally traumatized by
her unjust assaults and her hiding behind (I'M A WOMAN YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME -
trump card).
 In search of the truth, I found new friends.

I don't want to even go into detail about the torture in community and
outside she put this poor guy thru what she put him thru I would expect her
to pay a million dollars in law-suits.

https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/689969604102328320

As for her, she blocked me because I said after studying the evidence I
found her accusations baseless.


> Look, I'm not an authority on this stuff, either. But I understand that
rules, such as those in a Code of Conduct, must be explicit and as
unambiguous as language will allow.

Those who claim to be authorities are the most narrow-minded, self-absorbed,
culturally sheltered people I have ever met.  They can only think of
unambiguity in their own minds.

Chis Travers has demonstrated, that though he's white, he's been exposed to
so many cultures that he has a sense of how each feels. His experiences make
him an authority.
George Winkless has faced abuse and bullying.  He knows what it is when he
sees it.  Forget he's white.  His experiences make him an authority.
Josh Drake has to put up with 2 women every day being the only guy in his
immediate family.  Ironically he probably has a better perspective on the
"How women feel?" story than I do.

Now as for me true I'm a mixed race (Half-black, Half-white, woman, and I'm
a dual citizen - Half-Nigerian/ Half American and married to a Chinese man).
I should be the master authority, but guess what, I don't consider myself
one.

If I'm in an all black group I'm asked -- "You're part white, what do you
think white people think about this?" - I say, if you have a group of white
people, they'll all disagree with each other

If I'm in an all white group I'm asked -- "You're black what do black people
think?" - Well Nigerians think very differently than non-Nigerians, and I'm
not usually in an all black group that is not my extended Nigerian family.

If I'm in my husband's family meeting -- "Hmm Regina likes this food, I
wonder if that means all non-Chinese will like this" - curiously enough they
all pass me there - Red-bean porridge dessert, and I remain puzzled why
Chinese hand out desserts that their people don't seem to care for.

if I'm in an all-male group, I'm asked, "You're a woman, do you feel FOSS is
a rape culture.  Has someone tried to rape you in conferences? Do you feel
unsafe"   And I'll

a) Point them to Josh Drake, cause he's had more experience dealing with
women than I have
b) Also point out that I've lived under the shadow of my older brothers,
following them around, had boy hand-me down toys, had a mother who was
"Daddy's favorite girl".
So essentially I'm a Tom-boy that feels extremely uncomfortable in all
female groups.  They look like me, but they are foreign creatures to me.  I
feel I understand the "male" psyche better if there is such a thing.

Finally I've suffered a lot of bullying in youth (and I mean real unsafe
kind like running from the bus when being chased by a gang of Italian boys
in an all-italian neighborhoo ready to lynch you kind of bullying) and I bet
most geeks have, so we are all very experienced on the subject and I would
hope wouldn't wish it on anyone else.  We don't need a Coc to tell us that.
I also think PostgreSQL community is VERY diverse.  So I doubt any Coc is
going to make us more so and probably less so, as the more minority a group,
the more fear they will have tripping over a Coc booby trap.

So the point is stop assuming who has experience and who doesn't simply by
how people look.

The irony is that PostgreSQL is so diverse that a Coc leads to nothing but
huge arguments about what's okay in one culture and not another. We can only
go by intent and not what was done.  If we can't say that, then a Coc does
us no good.  I've already violated all Cocs at least 3 times in this whole
conversation.

Thanks,
Regina

> On 24 Jan 2016, at 1:48, Regina Obe <lr@pcorp.us> wrote:
> So the point is stop assuming who has experience and who doesn't simply by
> how people look.

+1

To expand on that: Don't let your prejudices get the better of you. Assuming that other people are prejudiced about you
isjust another prejudice. 

The people you're communicating with on a mailing list are individuals, not groups, so do not generalise. In most cases
youdo not know enough about them to make such assumptions, and that's assuming they are valid, which they generally are
not(yikes! a generalisation!). 

> The irony is that PostgreSQL is so diverse that a Coc leads to nothing but
> huge arguments about what's okay in one culture and not another. We can only
> go by intent and not what was done.  If we can't say that, then a Coc does
> us no good.  I've already violated all Cocs at least 3 times in this whole
> conversation.
>
> Thanks,
> Regina

What about this for a CoC?:
1. Do not discuss a CoC.

But, this side-thread has been going on long enough I think. Let's wrap this up, shall we?

Regards,

Alban Hertroys
--
If you can't see the forest for the trees,
cut the trees and you'll find there is no forest.

On 24/01/16 13:48, Regina Obe wrote:
> This is mostly in response to David's recent comments.  I should say David,
> you are really beginning to make me feel unsafe.
> By unsafe I mean my mental safety of being able to speak truthfully without
> fear of being kicked out of a community I love.
>
> I do not think we need a Coc and if we do, it's only to protect me from
> people like this Kurtis guy:
>
> https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/690637345972981760
>
> So if we have a Coc, I want all people who are on Core and Coc committee  to
> be exempt from it.  Because if I can't trust them I can't trust anybody in
> the PostgreSQL group.
>
> So here are some comments to your comments David:
>
>
>> 3. If I understand correctly, the impetus for adopting a CoC (which,
> believe me, I laud in no uncertain terms) was this post by Randi Harper
> about her experience reporting abuse to the FreeBSD community:
>
>    >
> http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/
>
>> Ideally, by adopting a CoC and an enforcement policy, we can try to
> prevent bad experiences for people reporting abuse. However, in this
> example, the abuse, which came from a
>> FreeBSD committer and was aimed at another, took place on Twitter, not in
> a FreeBSD forum. However, the rules of the FreeBSD community at that time
> did not cover abuse outside
>> sanctioned community forums. As a result, the FreeBSd core:
> I brought that up by the way and is what broke my camel's back about simply
> ignoring this nonsense and going about my business doing PostGIS and tech
> writing.
> I personally went and talked to all the people that supposedly harassed
> Randi and guess what?
> They happened to be very nice people, that seemed emotionally traumatized by
> her unjust assaults and her hiding behind (I'M A WOMAN YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME -
> trump card).
>   In search of the truth, I found new friends.
>
> I don't want to even go into detail about the torture in community and
> outside she put this poor guy thru what she put him thru I would expect her
> to pay a million dollars in law-suits.
>
> https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/689969604102328320
>
> As for her, she blocked me because I said after studying the evidence I
> found her accusations baseless.
>
>
>> Look, I'm not an authority on this stuff, either. But I understand that
> rules, such as those in a Code of Conduct, must be explicit and as
> unambiguous as language will allow.
>
> Those who claim to be authorities are the most narrow-minded, self-absorbed,
> culturally sheltered people I have ever met.  They can only think of
> unambiguity in their own minds.
>
> Chis Travers has demonstrated, that though he's white, he's been exposed to
> so many cultures that he has a sense of how each feels. His experiences make
> him an authority.
> George Winkless has faced abuse and bullying.  He knows what it is when he
> sees it.  Forget he's white.  His experiences make him an authority.
> Josh Drake has to put up with 2 women every day being the only guy in his
> immediate family.  Ironically he probably has a better perspective on the
> "How women feel?" story than I do.
>
> Now as for me true I'm a mixed race (Half-black, Half-white, woman, and I'm
> a dual citizen - Half-Nigerian/ Half American and married to a Chinese man).
> I should be the master authority, but guess what, I don't consider myself
> one.
>
> If I'm in an all black group I'm asked -- "You're part white, what do you
> think white people think about this?" - I say, if you have a group of white
> people, they'll all disagree with each other
>
> If I'm in an all white group I'm asked -- "You're black what do black people
> think?" - Well Nigerians think very differently than non-Nigerians, and I'm
> not usually in an all black group that is not my extended Nigerian family.
>
> If I'm in my husband's family meeting -- "Hmm Regina likes this food, I
> wonder if that means all non-Chinese will like this" - curiously enough they
> all pass me there - Red-bean porridge dessert, and I remain puzzled why
> Chinese hand out desserts that their people don't seem to care for.
>
> if I'm in an all-male group, I'm asked, "You're a woman, do you feel FOSS is
> a rape culture.  Has someone tried to rape you in conferences? Do you feel
> unsafe"   And I'll
>
> a) Point them to Josh Drake, cause he's had more experience dealing with
> women than I have
> b) Also point out that I've lived under the shadow of my older brothers,
> following them around, had boy hand-me down toys, had a mother who was
> "Daddy's favorite girl".
> So essentially I'm a Tom-boy that feels extremely uncomfortable in all
> female groups.  They look like me, but they are foreign creatures to me.  I
> feel I understand the "male" psyche better if there is such a thing.
>
> Finally I've suffered a lot of bullying in youth (and I mean real unsafe
> kind like running from the bus when being chased by a gang of Italian boys
> in an all-italian neighborhoo ready to lynch you kind of bullying) and I bet
> most geeks have, so we are all very experienced on the subject and I would
> hope wouldn't wish it on anyone else.  We don't need a Coc to tell us that.
> I also think PostgreSQL community is VERY diverse.  So I doubt any Coc is
> going to make us more so and probably less so, as the more minority a group,
> the more fear they will have tripping over a Coc booby trap.
>
> So the point is stop assuming who has experience and who doesn't simply by
> how people look.
>
> The irony is that PostgreSQL is so diverse that a Coc leads to nothing but
> huge arguments about what's okay in one culture and not another. We can only
> go by intent and not what was done.  If we can't say that, then a Coc does
> us no good.  I've already violated all Cocs at least 3 times in this whole
> conversation.
>
> Thanks,
> Regina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I agree with Regina, especially about the dangers of a CoC, and not
needing one.

You can tell the truth, and offend someone, even if not intentionally -
for example: try having a sensible discussion with a Creationist!.

I'm a 'white' Married to a Chinese and lived in several countries
(including Sierra Leone), plus been on the Internet since 1991 - but I
don't consider myself an authority, but probably had more relevant
experience than most.  Not had any significant trouble on the Internet,
and even the 'worst' (which was exceedingly minor) would not have been
addressed by any practical CoC.



Cheers,
Gavin

Chris Travers <chris.travers@gmail.com> writes:
> Core has spoken that they will create one.  I them that it will maintain
> the general political neutrality of the community (and again for the
> record, I don't see the topless dancer conference issue as one that
> compromised that political neutrality either).  So as far as I am
> concerned, the question of do we need one is resolved.

Just to correct the record: core has stated that we will set up an
exploratory committee to investigate this topic.  (I hope to have some
news soon on progress on that, but not just yet.)  There's a fair number
of people who feel we don't need a CoC, and so I don't think we should
prejudge the outcome of the discussion.

In the meantime, it's been made pretty clear that a lot of people didn't
like pgsql-general being overwhelmed by threads on this topic, which it
was for awhile there in January.  Possibly the answer is to create a new
list dedicated to the topic, so that people who aren't interested don't
need to read it.  Again, I'd rather not prejudge how the exploratory
committee will handle this exactly, but I'm sure they will choose some
way of discussing the matter with the larger community.  For now, let's
try not to annoy the pgsql-general readership ...

            regards, tom lane