Re: Let's Do the CoC Right - Mailing list pgsql-general
| From | Chris Travers |
|---|---|
| Subject | Re: Let's Do the CoC Right |
| Date | |
| Msg-id | CAKt_Zfu1WSQVZRBumFL155OG85LRXnRUZ=Q_3jgYqxKwX-tg-A@mail.gmail.com Whole thread Raw |
| In response to | Re: Let's Do the CoC Right (Gavin Flower <GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz>) |
| Responses |
Re: Let's Do the CoC Right
|
| List | pgsql-general |
I was hoping to let this thread lie. However because I think there is a need for people to sit back and wait for the draft to be circulated, there are a couple more thoughts that are important to add. I am working on one more blog post on the topic but will not further participate in this discussion until the draft is circulated.
There are, however, a few remarks to be made that I hope will help lessen some of the tension within the community over this issue.On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Gavin Flower <GavinFlower@archidevsys.co.nz> wrote:
Core has spoken that they will create one. I them that it will maintain the general political neutrality of the community (and again for the record, I don't see the topless dancer conference issue as one that compromised that political neutrality either). So as far as I am concerned, the question of do we need one is resolved.
I will also say that any hard enforcement policy will quickly become a tool for harassment in itself. That was the point of the hypothetical over dueling email sigs and gay rights.
On 24/01/16 13:48, Regina Obe wrote:This is mostly in response to David's recent comments. I should say David,
you are really beginning to make me feel unsafe.
By unsafe I mean my mental safety of being able to speak truthfully without
fear of being kicked out of a community I love.
I do not think we need a Coc and if we do, it's only to protect me from
people like this Kurtis guy:
https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/690637345972981760
Just for the record, I think core is in a position to determine whether one would be helpful and I am not. LedgerSMB has really been made better by adopting the Ubuntu Code of Conduct (thanks, Josh Drake!), so I am not opposed to having a code of conduct. What I am opposed to is adopting a code of conduct which positions the community as culture war battleground. I think the Contributor's Covenant is more or less intended to do exactly that.
So if we have a Coc, I want all people who are on Core and Coc committee to
be exempt from it. Because if I can't trust them I can't trust anybody in
the PostgreSQL group.
So here are some comments to your comments David:3. If I understand correctly, the impetus for adopting a CoC (which,believe me, I laud in no uncertain terms) was this post by Randi Harper
about her experience reporting abuse to the FreeBSD community:
>
http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/Ideally, by adopting a CoC and an enforcement policy, we can try toprevent bad experiences for people reporting abuse. However, in this
example, the abuse, which came from aFreeBSD committer and was aimed at another, took place on Twitter, not ina FreeBSD forum. However, the rules of the FreeBSD community at that time
did not cover abuse outsidesanctioned community forums. As a result, the FreeBSd core:I brought that up by the way and is what broke my camel's back about simply
ignoring this nonsense and going about my business doing PostGIS and tech
writing.
I personally went and talked to all the people that supposedly harassed
Randi and guess what?
They happened to be very nice people, that seemed emotionally traumatized by
her unjust assaults and her hiding behind (I'M A WOMAN YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME -
trump card).
In search of the truth, I found new friends.
As a maintainer of other open source software I have a different view. Having now read the blog and some other things, I think it is worth saying a few things. This isn't about what a CoC should or should not cover. My comments, as before, are intended to highlight the realities that come with trying to manage a community. I trust the core team to come up with a code of conduct that doesn't make merely expressing a political position elsewhere a possible violation. This has been floated as a need from the beginning and I don't see that going away.
Let's get two things clear from the start:
1. Online harassment is real and damaging, and
2. Any outside authority is in a low-knowledge position regarding what to do about it.
In other words, the software maintainer is not in a position to adjudicate a dispute, particularly when the remedy demanded is to exile a committer. Conduct on lists, IRC channels, etc. where there are witnesses, they are community space, etc. are one thing But going to conduct elsewhere not only feels like overreach but making mistakes is also more costly and there is less we really can do.Add to that the price of possibly implicitly making political viewpoints off-limits for people who are involved in the economic commons creation process and you have a real potential for problems.
So I won't judge either side in the Randi Harper incident (I don't have personal knowledge or the time to read through everything). But I will say that writing to maintainers demanding that someone is kicked off a project for communications outside the project space is not something any sane project maintainer is likely to take seriously, precisely because of the lack of knowledge issue. Randi in her blog post is entirely correct that you can't solve interpersonal disputes the same way you resolve technical problems. I would go further and say that managing community is entirely political.
I don't want to even go into detail about the torture in community and
outside she put this poor guy thru what she put him thru I would expect her
to pay a million dollars in law-suits.
https://twitter.com/siloraptor/status/689969604102328320
As for her, she blocked me because I said after studying the evidence I
found her accusations baseless.Look, I'm not an authority on this stuff, either. But I understand thatrules, such as those in a Code of Conduct, must be explicit and as
unambiguous as language will allow.
Those who claim to be authorities are the most narrow-minded, self-absorbed,
culturally sheltered people I have ever met. They can only think of
unambiguity in their own minds.
Chis Travers has demonstrated, that though he's white, he's been exposed to
so many cultures that he has a sense of how each feels. His experiences make
him an authority.
I guess I had better correct something. i think the concept of authority here is dangerous. Hopefully we come together as a community and treat eachother with humanity, regardless of our political differences, differences in identity, differences in views on hot button issues. Done well, a code of conduct can serve as a reminder of this. That doesn't mean that the differences disappear elsewhere or that they don't cause major clashes elsewhere. But it means that in the community spaces we treat eachother with humanity, and ideally that everyone can then be safe and secure in the economic efforts for the commons we are creating.
George Winkless has faced abuse and bullying. He knows what it is when he
sees it. Forget he's white. His experiences make him an authority.
Josh Drake has to put up with 2 women every day being the only guy in his
immediate family. Ironically he probably has a better perspective on the
"How women feel?" story than I do.
Also keep in mind (my wife is Chinese-Indonesian), one thing I have learned is that women in different cultures feel very differently about things.
If I'm in my husband's family meeting -- "Hmm Regina likes this food, I
wonder if that means all non-Chinese will like this" - curiously enough they
all pass me there - Red-bean porridge dessert, and I remain puzzled why
Chinese hand out desserts that their people don't seem to care for.
Try getting white Americans to eat sea cucumbers (haisom).... haha
if I'm in an all-male group, I'm asked, "You're a woman, do you feel FOSS is
a rape culture. Has someone tried to rape you in conferences? Do you feel
unsafe" And I'll
a) Point them to Josh Drake, cause he's had more experience dealing with
women than I have
b) Also point out that I've lived under the shadow of my older brothers,
following them around, had boy hand-me down toys, had a mother who was
"Daddy's favorite girl".
So essentially I'm a Tom-boy that feels extremely uncomfortable in all
female groups. They look like me, but they are foreign creatures to me. I
feel I understand the "male" psyche better if there is such a thing.
Finally I've suffered a lot of bullying in youth (and I mean real unsafe
kind like running from the bus when being chased by a gang of Italian boys
in an all-italian neighborhoo ready to lynch you kind of bullying) and I bet
most geeks have, so we are all very experienced on the subject and I would
hope wouldn't wish it on anyone else. We don't need a Coc to tell us that.
I also think PostgreSQL community is VERY diverse. So I doubt any Coc is
going to make us more so and probably less so, as the more minority a group,
the more fear they will have tripping over a Coc booby trap.
What a CoC (we use the Ubuntu Code of Conduct) enables me to do in the LedgerSMB community is to approach people who are a little out of line and remind them to behave. If necessary will do it in public but that is rare.
So the point is stop assuming who has experience and who doesn't simply by
how people look.
The irony is that PostgreSQL is so diverse that a Coc leads to nothing but
huge arguments about what's okay in one culture and not another. We can only
go by intent and not what was done. If we can't say that, then a Coc does
us no good. I've already violated all Cocs at least 3 times in this whole
conversation.
If a CoC addresses culture war topics, my view is that it is a bad CoC. Also from the discussions, I feel confident that such will not be a problem here, because I think that almost everyone agrees we don't want a culture war CoC. I would go further and say that I think most people recognize that positioning PostgreSQL as a political battleground over hot-button issues internationally would be the death of the project.
I agree with Regina, especially about the dangers of a CoC, and not needing one.
Thanks,
Regina
You can tell the truth, and offend someone, even if not intentionally - for example: try having a sensible discussion with a Creationist!.
I'm a 'white' Married to a Chinese and lived in several countries (including Sierra Leone), plus been on the Internet since 1991 - but I don't consider myself an authority, but probably had more relevant experience than most. Not had any significant trouble on the Internet, and even the 'worst' (which was exceedingly minor) would not have been addressed by any practical CoC.
I say this as a white American who has lived most of my life in small towns (places disparagingly called redneck country, flyover country, etc).
I think one has to see the current push as an aspect of American culture wars, and the fact that a central part of American white culture is the idea that what is good for Americans is good for everyone else. In other words, one often sees these sorts of issues as culture wars turned global.
I don't think that ideology should be a factor in whether one can participate in economic commons, and I think furthermore going that route would hurt most the least powerful groups. But I think on this I am preaching towards the choir.
Again, I wont respond further on this thread. I hope that the comments above are things that bring us together rather than things we argue about.
Cheers,
Gavin
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Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
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