Thread: Looking for Suggestion on Learning
I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details. I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open source design tool to a simple method to implement the design. I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will appreciate any help. ray
On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote: > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn > how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too > complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details. > > I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open > source design tool to a simple method to implement the design. > > I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will > appreciate any help. > > ray It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had with Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base (http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools, admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is psycopg2. This in turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use Dabo (http://dabodev.com/). Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a 1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work back from there: 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations. Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. -- Adrian Klaver adrian.klaver@gmail.com
On 02/05/11 9:30 AM, ray wrote: > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn > how to use pgsql. I have found some ...... Access really isn't a database, its an application development system that happens to use databases, by default the Jet engine. Postgres would replace Jet, but not Access itself, you'd need some other sort of software for creating forms & reports and such. Do note, you can use Postgres databases with Access, via Postgres ODBC or ADODB connectors.
> On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote: > > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn > > how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too > > complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details. > > > > I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open > > source design tool to a simple method to implement the design. > > > > I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will > > appreciate any help. > > > > ray > > It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had > with > Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base > (http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well > integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools, > admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect > handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text > files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is > psycopg2. This n turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use > Dabo > (http://dabodev.com/). > Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a > 1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work > bck from there: > > 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? > 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? > 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? > 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? > > With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a > bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations. > Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open > Source is about a variety of choices. > > -- > Adrian Klaver > adrian.klaver@gmail.com Adrian, Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding questions you presented: 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP. 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python. 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first. 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO at first. My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big apps, I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the simple. Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle admin/creation with text files run through psql." I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is there a tool for designing a database? Ray
On Saturday 05 February 2011 18:42:09 John R Pierce wrote: > On 02/05/11 9:30 AM, ray wrote: > > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn > > how to use pgsql. I have found some ...... > > Access really isn't a database, its an application development system > that happens to use databases, by default the Jet engine. Postgres > would replace Jet, but not Access itself, you'd need some other sort of > software for creating forms & reports and such. > > Do note, you can use Postgres databases with Access, via Postgres ODBC > or ADODB connectors. Is there an open source product that runs on Linux that does what Access does? Thanks SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
On Saturday, February 05, 2011 6:22:47 pm ray joseph wrote: > > Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding > questions you presented: > > 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP. > 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python. > 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first. > 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO > at first. > > My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I > will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be > a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big > apps, I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the > simple. Since you are working with Python, another suggestion: http://sqlkit.argolinux.org/sqlkit/tour.html# This has only recently shown up and I myself am only at the reading the docs stage, but it looks interesting. > > Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle > admin/creation with text files run through psql." psql is the command line Postgres client. I create my database objects(tables,views,functions) as separate text files in a text editor(Jedit in my case). I can then use psql to read the files and create/drop objects. I can also work inside psql to do database chores. Another option that I failed to mention earlier is pgAdmin3 (http://www.pgadmin.org/). It is a GUI admin tool for Postgres. If you are using the Windows installer it is included. > > I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is > there a tool for designing a database? Pen and paper:) No really that is how I usually start out, sketching out the design on a legal pad. This gets turned into the text files I mentioned above. I have no real experience with using GUI tools for this so I can offer no suggestions. There have been discussions on this topic on the mailing list, so if you search the mailing list archive you will find suggestions. > > Ray -- Adrian Klaver adrian.klaver@gmail.com
Matt,
Thank you for your insightful view. I do not have a design for any of my design opportunities. This is one reason I was looking for a design tool. I have many work processes that are inter related, generated by different groups that must transcribe data from each others artifacts. I do have Visio but I have never used it for this purpose. Since one of my objectives is to learn about db design, maybe I can find some training material using Visio. I wonder if Visio will generate SQL. If I recall, only the enterprise version of Visio produces SQL, so I would like to find a FOS tool for this. A tool and associated tutorial would be great.
BTW, I do use Notepad++. I have used gnome.org/dia, but I find it much weaker than Visio. I did not realize that PHP admin required a web server, but I have recently installed Apache for SVN. I looked at PHP admin even though my preference is Python. I have also looked at Maestro but have had a similar problem with tutorials.
Thank you for the link to the ‘docs’ site. I have been there many times over the past couple of years but now I see it in a new light (I’m slow).
When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the code?
I really appreciate your efforts.
ray
From: urlugal@gmail.com [mailto:urlugal@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 10:19 PM
To: ray joseph
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Looking for Suggestion on Learning
I too am in a similar situation. My company currently uses M$ Access and the solution is no longer viable and needs to be dealt with. Form what I have been reading and learning the last few weeks trying to compare Access and PG is like comparing a go-kart and a race car. They both do the same thing more or less but the race car is capable of much more but also needs more attention. I am assuming that you already have a structural design for your database, tables, keys etc. If not this is a good place to start and is where I am currently at in my project.
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 9:22 PM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote:
> > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
> > how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too
> > complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details.
Use the online documentation at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ for a basic tutorial on how to create tables, queries, and the like. The docs go much further in detail then that but this is a good place to start. It gives real examples of working with tables that are easy to follow and it doesn't require previous knowledge.
> >
> > I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open
> > source design tool to a simple method to implement the design.
What do you mean by a design tool? Are you looking for a program to help you map out the table structure of your db? Are you looking for a GUI to access your db and modify it? I am using Viso to create my maps at work right now but you may want to check out Dia http://projects.gnome.org/dia/, it is a good piece of software but I haven't used it for this purpose yet. When you install PG it comes with the GUI PGAdmin that gives you basic control over some aspects of your db and allows you to implement various things. I am using PHPAdmin myself, as this project is entirely based on the net and I also have a fondness for php. This can be acquired through the stackbuilder app included with the single file installer for PG. It does require you to run a webserver though, so this may not be the route you wish to take. As far as building the db itself I hand code the SQL in notepad++ http://notepad-plus-plus.org/. I am not a big fan of IDE's for small scale or single file projects so this editor is great. It provides a tabbed interface and has syntax highlighting for many of the most common languages and is fairly lightweight.
> >
> > I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will
> > appreciate any help.
Being more specific as to what you are looking to learn may help people to suggest the right guide for you. I have had great luck here in the last few weeks with recommended books and articles.
> >
> > ray
>
> It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had
> with
> Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base
> (http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well
> integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools,
> admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect
> handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text
> files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is> psycopg2. This n turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use
> Dabo > (http://dabodev.com/).
> Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a
> 1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work
> bck from there:
>
> 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on?
> 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with?
> 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web?
> 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps?
>
> With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a
> bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations.
> Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open
> Source is about a variety of choices.
>
> --
> Adrian Klaver
> adrian.klaver@gmail.comAdrian,
Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding
questions you presented:
1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP.
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python.
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first.
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO at
first.
My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I
will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be
a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big apps,
I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the simple.
Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle admin/creationwith text files run through psql."
This is the commandline shell that allows you to interact with the database. It is from here that you are able to create tables, views, and submit queries, among other things. It is akin to the Windows command prompt, although instead of giving commands to windows you are giving them to PG.
I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is
there a tool for designing a database?
Please be specific, do you mean creating a logical design of the structure or do you mean implementing the design such as creating tables and inserting data.
Ray
--
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Matt,
Thank you for your insightful view. I do not have a design for any of my design opportunities. This is one reason I was looking for a design tool. I have many work processes that are inter related, generated by different groups that must transcribe data from each others artifacts. I do have Visio but I have never used it for this purpose. Since one of my objectives is to learn about db design, maybe I can find some training material using Visio. I wonder if Visio will generate SQL. If I recall, only the enterprise version of Visio produces SQL, so I would like to find a FOS tool for this. A tool and associated tutorial would be great.
BTW, I do use Notepad++. I have used gnome.org/dia, but I find it much weaker than Visio. I did not realize that PHP admin required a web server, but I have recently installed Apache for SVN. I looked at PHP admin even though my preference is Python. I have also looked at Maestro but have had a similar problem with tutorials.
Thank you for the link to the ‘docs’ site. I have been there many times over the past couple of years but now I see it in a new light (I’m slow).
When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the code?
I really appreciate your efforts.
ray
From: urlugal@gmail.com [mailto:urlugal@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 10:19 PM
To: ray joseph
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Looking for Suggestion on Learning
I too am in a similar situation. My company currently uses M$ Access and the solution is no longer viable and needs to be dealt with. Form what I have been reading and learning the last few weeks trying to compare Access and PG is like comparing a go-kart and a race car. They both do the same thing more or less but the race car is capable of much more but also needs more attention. I am assuming that you already have a structural design for your database, tables, keys etc. If not this is a good place to start and is where I am currently at in my project.
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 9:22 PM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:30:13 am ray wrote:
> > I have built a few databases with MS Access and I would like to learn
> > how to use pgsql. I have found some examples but they have been too
> > complex to follow or to abstract with no specific details.
Use the online documentation at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ for a basic tutorial on how to create tables, queries, and the like. The docs go much further in detail then that but this is a good place to start. It gives real examples of working with tables that are easy to follow and it doesn't require previous knowledge.
> >
> > I would like to find a simple example that would take me from an open
> > source design tool to a simple method to implement the design.
What do you mean by a design tool? Are you looking for a program to help you map out the table structure of your db? Are you looking for a GUI to access your db and modify it? I am using Viso to create my maps at work right now but you may want to check out Dia http://projects.gnome.org/dia/, it is a good piece of software but I haven't used it for this purpose yet. When you install PG it comes with the GUI PGAdmin that gives you basic control over some aspects of your db and allows you to implement various things. I am using PHPAdmin myself, as this project is entirely based on the net and I also have a fondness for php. This can be acquired through the stackbuilder app included with the single file installer for PG. It does require you to run a webserver though, so this may not be the route you wish to take. As far as building the db itself I hand code the SQL in notepad++ http://notepad-plus-plus.org/. I am not a big fan of IDE's for small scale or single file projects so this editor is great. It provides a tabbed interface and has syntax highlighting for many of the most common languages and is fairly lightweight.
> >
> > I would like to find a simple guide, tutorial or example and will
> > appreciate any help.
Being more specific as to what you are looking to learn may help people to suggest the right guide for you. I have had great luck here in the last few weeks with recommended books and articles.
> >
> > ray
>
> It will be difficult to find a simple drop in replacement for what you had
> with
> Access. The closest thing I can think of is OpenOffice/LibreOffice Base
> (http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Database_1) and that is not as well
> integrated. Most Open Source development tend to use chains of tools,
> admin/creation --> driver/middle layer --> GUI design, with each aspect
> handled by a different program. I tend to handle admin/creation with text
> files run through psql. I work with Python so my database driver is> psycopg2. This n turn gets used by a framework. For desktop apps I use
> Dabo > (http://dabodev.com/).
> Since the final output is determined by mix and match it is hard to find a
> 1-2-3 tutorial. My suggestion is to make a list of your needs and work
> bck from there:
>
> 1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on?
> 2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with?
> 3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web?
> 4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps?
>
> With answers to these questions it would be possible to narrow the field a
> bit. Unfortunately, it is one of those good news/bad news situations.
> Good news, Open Source is about a variety of choices. Bad news, Open
> Source is about a variety of choices.
>
> --
> Adrian Klaver
> adrian.klaver@gmail.comAdrian,
Thank you for the clarifications. I would like to address the guiding
questions you presented:
1) What OS(s) do I want to deploy on? Windows, right now XP.
2) What programming language(s) do I want to work with? Python.
3) Where do I want to deploy, desktop/Web? Desktop at first.
4) What do I want to build, simple SOHO apps .... enterprise apps? SOHO at
first.
My responses represent what I expect a learning path to take. Although I
will probably not be programming for web or enterprise, what I build may be
a prototype for such. I am not looking for the tools to build the big apps,
I just want to learn the basics, or more important right now, the simple.
Please help me understand what you mean by " I tend to handle admin/creationwith text files run through psql."
This is the commandline shell that allows you to interact with the database. It is from here that you are able to create tables, views, and submit queries, among other things. It is akin to the Windows command prompt, although instead of giving commands to windows you are giving them to PG.
I looked at Dabo and it looks like it is for developing applications. Is
there a tool for designing a database?
Please be specific, do you mean creating a logical design of the structure or do you mean implementing the design such as creating tables and inserting data.
Ray
--
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Le dimanche 06 février 2011 à 12:27 -0500, Matt a écrit : > > > On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, ray joseph <ray@aarden.us> wrote: > Matt, > > When you hand code SQL with Notepad++, how do you launch the > code? > > > > There are several ways to launch the code. I use the PHPPGAdmin and > load the file into the GUI and launch it that way. In psql, you type : \i path/to/file/with/sql and it will play your code. There was a recent thread with a question similar to yours, have a look at it : http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/Basic-Tutorials-for-9-0-td3259760.html -- Vincent Veyron http://marica.fr/ Logiciel de gestion des dossiers de contentieux et d'assurance pour le service juridique