Thread: PostgreSQL <> MySQL: missing the point?
Hi! I sometimes have fun flaming about MySQL vs. PostgreSQL on various Russian-language forums. This is an enlightening experience, 'cause you see what sort of advocacy is really needed and really helps building up your flaming skills, as there are many Russian-speaking developers in MySQL AB now. Thus much praise goes to Ian for compiling his excellent "gotchas" list that can help a lot in flaming. But I see no such use for "the bullet list": I don't see target audience for it. There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution for Everything. The propaganda should obviously be directed to the category 2) and if you look at MySQL's propaganda, it is. The "bullet list" will not help here, as these people do not know SQL and RDBMS theory past MySQL manual and do not want to learn, while they *think* that MySQL satisfies their needs and will satisfy them for some time. Thus what is really needed is *not* technical document, but a healthy dose of FUD / debunking directed at MySQL. Consider "Why not MySQL?" document by OpenACS developers, but newer and better. Some suggestions for such a document: Development strategies: * PgSQL has an open development model and open architecture, while MySQL is developed by MySQL AB only and is closed. Thus there are third-party solutions for PostgreSQL (PostGIS, tsearch, various replication packages), but not for MySQL. * "Premature optimization is a root of much evil" --- an excellent counter-FUD for MySQL's "speed is a priority" * I remember finding an email by Monty on mysql list archive, dated 1998(?) where he promised MySQL 4.0 Really Soon Now Licensing: * MySQL had atleast 2 license changes, PostgreSQL had none. * Various companies that distribute and support PostgreSQL vs. MySQL AB/Nusphere dispute Data integrity: * Ways to lose your data with MySQL --- Ian's gotchas list * If MySQL is so stable, why does it have myisamchk utility and *built-in* REPAIR TABLE command? * InnoDB's hot backup utility is not free: either transactions or "hot" backup. Functionality * OK, bullet list here. Speed: * PostgreSQL's functional and partial indexes: KILLER feature that should be SHOUTED about. * Benchmarking queries vs. benchmarking applications with a s*itload of workarounds MySQL current favourite is eweek's benchmark ( http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1184846,00.asp ) , it should be debunked: * The queries are really simple * The specification was written in a way to work around MySQL's shortcomings * MySQL's performance is great only with "cache", but every other database can have an app-level cache, too. How does it sound?
> * If MySQL is so stable, why does it have myisamchk utility and > *built-in* REPAIR TABLE command? Perhaps this is one of the reasons and it's probably somewhere in the documentation too so it cannot be a bug therefore it must be a feature :) Heikki Tuuri "'nosync' is dangerous. If there is a power outage, or the OS crashes, there is a great chance that your tablespace will be corrupted. MyISAM always runs in the 'nosync' mode, that is, it never calls fsync() to flush the files to disk." http://lists.mysql.com/mysql/148920 Kaarel
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Thus much praise goes to Ian for compiling his excellent "gotchas" list > that can help a lot in flaming. But I see no such use for "the bullet > list": I don't see target audience for it. I disagree. > There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: > 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best > tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) > 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution > for Everything. 3) Programmers (read: not db experts) who started with MySQL by default or by recommendation, but who would be persuaded by an objective, non-FUD comparison to a more capable free RDBMS. This is the category I fell into three years ago. Ian's bullet list would have saved me a lot of research back then. As a side note, I appreciate the PgSQL community's apparent commitment to avoid both FUD and overstatement of PgSQL's capabilities. michael
Hi! Michael Pohl wrote: >>There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: >>1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best >>tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) >>2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution >>for Everything. > > 3) Programmers (read: not db experts) who started with MySQL by default or > by recommendation, but who would be persuaded by an objective, non-FUD > comparison to a more capable free RDBMS. > > This is the category I fell into three years ago. Ian's bullet list would > have saved me a lot of research back then. You've got a point here. But I must admit that I've seen few people falling into this category, much less than 2). Besides, I think this bullet list is a Good Idea, just not stand-alone but inside a propaganda framework. > As a side note, I appreciate the PgSQL community's apparent commitment to > avoid both FUD and overstatement of PgSQL's capabilities. If you look closely at my list, it has no overstatements. It has no false statements either, everything can be backed up by appropriate links. As for the FUD, its main goal is to point some obvious things: 1) MySQL is not exactly Free Software 2) While missing features do get implemented, they may take some time to wait for: http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/msg.php3?msg_id=1061364&list=194 3) Data integrity is good. You can get fired if you f*ck up your data. 4) Speed is important, but in *your* application, not in some suspicious benchmarks (and understand why they are suspicious). 5) You can save your valuable time if you use advanced features instead of work around lack of them. Consider this FUD a "wake up" call for those whose only database-related reading is MySQL manual.
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Michael Pohl wrote: > > > As a side note, I appreciate the PgSQL community's apparent commitment to > > avoid both FUD and overstatement of PgSQL's capabilities. > > If you look closely at my list, it has no overstatements. It has no > false statements either, everything can be backed up by appropriate links. I did not mean to imply that your list contained overstatements. I was making a general statement about the tone I've noticed on the PgSQL mailing lists and web site, vs. what I've noticed in other projects. I apologize for not being clear. michael
Alexey, Ian, > There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: > 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best > tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) > 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution > for Everything. Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: 3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as being one. We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the glitz, and this is a very good start. That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and MySQL's closed development process. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Alexey, Ian,
>
>> There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL:
>> 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best
>> tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc)
>> 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution
>> for Everything.
>
> Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about:
>
> 3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering MySQL
> because MySQL AB has very nice brochures.
>
> This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are frequently in
> a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like Microsoft before them,
> have realized that being *perceived* as an enterprise database is, from a
> sales perspective, almost as good as being one.
>
> We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a handful of
> xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth with big banners and
> uniforms. We need some substance to counter the glitz, and this is a very
> good start.
>
> That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included in the
> paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and MySQL's closed
> development process.
>
Where
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php
fit's perfectly.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
Hello, I would be willing to donate $$$ to the printing of brochures. Specifically brochures that would point out: 1. MySQL's NON ACID compliance 2. PostgreSQL ACID compliance 3. MySQL license issues 4. PostgreSQL NON License issues 5. PostgreSQL long development history 6. Examples of successful PostgreSQL users etc... Sincerely, Joshua Drake Jan Wieck wrote: > > > Josh Berkus wrote: > >> Alexey, Ian, >> >>> There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: >>> 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best >>> tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) >>> 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution >>> for Everything. >> >> >> Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: >> >> 3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering >> MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. >> >> This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are >> frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like >> Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an >> enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as >> being one. >> We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a >> handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth >> with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the >> glitz, and this is a very good start. >> >> That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included >> in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and >> MySQL's closed development process. >> > > Where > > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php > > fit's perfectly. > > > Jan > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
Altho printed would be good for shows and what not ... if someone would even come up with *strong* PDF versions that anyone could download and distribution? Or use as part of proposals to clients / bosses? That would be great also ... On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I would be willing to donate $$$ to the printing of brochures. > Specifically brochures that would point out: > > 1. MySQL's NON ACID compliance > 2. PostgreSQL ACID compliance > 3. MySQL license issues > 4. PostgreSQL NON License issues > 5. PostgreSQL long development history > 6. Examples of successful PostgreSQL users > > etc... > > Sincerely, > > Joshua Drake > > > Jan Wieck wrote: > > > > > > > Josh Berkus wrote: > > > >> Alexey, Ian, > >> > >>> There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: > >>> 1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best > >>> tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) > >>> 2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution > >>> for Everything. > >> > >> > >> Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: > >> > >> 3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering > >> MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. > >> > >> This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are > >> frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like > >> Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an > >> enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as > >> being one. > >> We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a > >> handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth > >> with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the > >> glitz, and this is a very good start. > >> > >> That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included > >> in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and > >> MySQL's closed development process. > >> > > > > Where > > > > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php > > > > fit's perfectly. > > > > > > Jan > > > > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend >
Hello, Heck... I would even be willing to draw up a FLASH presentation. J Marc G. Fournier wrote: >Altho printed would be good for shows and what not ... if someone would >even come up with *strong* PDF versions that anyone could download and >distribution? Or use as part of proposals to clients / bosses? That >would be great also ... > >On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > >>Hello, >> >> I would be willing to donate $$$ to the printing of brochures. >>Specifically brochures that would point out: >> >>1. MySQL's NON ACID compliance >>2. PostgreSQL ACID compliance >>3. MySQL license issues >>4. PostgreSQL NON License issues >>5. PostgreSQL long development history >>6. Examples of successful PostgreSQL users >> >> etc... >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Joshua Drake >> >> >>Jan Wieck wrote: >> >> >> >>>Josh Berkus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Alexey, Ian, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: >>>>>1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best >>>>>tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) >>>>>2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution >>>>>for Everything. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: >>>> >>>>3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering >>>>MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. >>>> >>>>This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are >>>>frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like >>>>Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an >>>>enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as >>>>being one. >>>>We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a >>>>handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth >>>>with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the >>>>glitz, and this is a very good start. >>>> >>>>That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included >>>>in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and >>>>MySQL's closed development process. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Where >>> >>> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php >>> >>>fit's perfectly. >>> >>> >>>Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC >>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. >>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com >>The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. >> >> >> >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend >> >> >> > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
kinda difficult to print, aren't they? :) On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > Heck... I would even be willing to draw up a FLASH presentation. > > J > > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > >Altho printed would be good for shows and what not ... if someone would > >even come up with *strong* PDF versions that anyone could download and > >distribution? Or use as part of proposals to clients / bosses? That > >would be great also ... > > > >On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > > > >>Hello, > >> > >> I would be willing to donate $$$ to the printing of brochures. > >>Specifically brochures that would point out: > >> > >>1. MySQL's NON ACID compliance > >>2. PostgreSQL ACID compliance > >>3. MySQL license issues > >>4. PostgreSQL NON License issues > >>5. PostgreSQL long development history > >>6. Examples of successful PostgreSQL users > >> > >> etc... > >> > >>Sincerely, > >> > >>Joshua Drake > >> > >> > >>Jan Wieck wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Josh Berkus wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Alexey, Ian, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: > >>>>>1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best > >>>>>tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) > >>>>>2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution > >>>>>for Everything. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: > >>>> > >>>>3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering > >>>>MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. > >>>> > >>>>This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are > >>>>frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like > >>>>Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an > >>>>enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as > >>>>being one. > >>>>We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a > >>>>handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth > >>>>with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the > >>>>glitz, and this is a very good start. > >>>> > >>>>That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included > >>>>in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and > >>>>MySQL's closed development process. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Where > >>> > >>> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php > >>> > >>>fit's perfectly. > >>> > >>> > >>>Jan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>-- > >>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > >>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > >>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > >>The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. > >> > >> > >> > >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >>TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend > >> > >> > >> > > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > >TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > > > http://archives.postgresql.org > > > > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. > > >
Hello, We could do that. Sincerely, Joshua Drake Marc G. Fournier wrote: >Altho printed would be good for shows and what not ... if someone would >even come up with *strong* PDF versions that anyone could download and >distribution? Or use as part of proposals to clients / bosses? That >would be great also ... > >On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > >>Hello, >> >> I would be willing to donate $$$ to the printing of brochures. >>Specifically brochures that would point out: >> >>1. MySQL's NON ACID compliance >>2. PostgreSQL ACID compliance >>3. MySQL license issues >>4. PostgreSQL NON License issues >>5. PostgreSQL long development history >>6. Examples of successful PostgreSQL users >> >> etc... >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Joshua Drake >> >> >>Jan Wieck wrote: >> >> >> >>>Josh Berkus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Alexey, Ian, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>There are 2 sorts of people using MySQL: >>>>>1) Those who know several RDBMSs and use it only when it is the best >>>>>tool for the job (read-only web DB, storing logs, etc) >>>>>2) Those who know only MySQL and think that it is the Ultimate Solution >>>>>for Everything. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Actually, for Comdex, I'm concerned about: >>>> >>>>3) Management who know nothing about technology and are considering >>>>MySQL because MySQL AB has very nice brochures. >>>> >>>>This is *very* important becuase no-nothing management types are >>>>frequently in a position to mandate technology choice. MySQL, like >>>>Microsoft before them, have realized that being *perceived* as an >>>>enterprise database is, from a sales perspective, almost as good as >>>>being one. >>>>We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a >>>>handful of xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth >>>>with big banners and uniforms. We need some substance to counter the >>>>glitz, and this is a very good start. >>>> >>>>That being said, I would like to see Alexey's other points included >>>>in the paper. *particularly* the part about license changes and >>>>MySQL's closed development process. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Where >>> >>> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-09/msg01400.php >>> >>>fit's perfectly. >>> >>> >>>Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC >>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. >>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com >>The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. >> >> >> >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend >> >> >> > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
Jan Wieck wrote: > > We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a handful of > > xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth with big banners and > > uniforms. We need some substance to counter the glitz, and this is a very > > good start. Let me add that having a small booth isn't a major problem. I have seen huge MySQL/Oracle booths where no one visited and it looked dead, and I have seen small booths where things were going great. The booth has to have some color to be visible, and you have to have your folks out in front of the booth engaging people. There is nothing worse than having your folks mull around in the back of the booth with nothing going on. Based on my recent travels, there will be lots of activity at your booth. I go to these conferences, and the first hour, I am thinking, "Man, I should be reading email instead of standing around doing nothing", then people find me and I am talking to PostgreSQL users for the rest of the entire day --- it happens every time, so be ready. Make sure to wear name tags so people can indentify you from your emails --- that's how they find you and know who you are so they can go up and talk to you, and it makes their day, and you will get a great lift from the experience. Of course, they aren't really thanking me, but all of you who work on PostgreSQL, and I point that out. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Jan Wieck wrote: > > > We will be at the convention with some card tables, some CDs and a handful of > > > xeroxed brochures. MySQL will have a multi-media booth with big banners and > > > uniforms. We need some substance to counter the glitz, and this is a very > > > good start. > > Let me add that having a small booth isn't a major problem. I have seen > huge MySQL/Oracle booths where no one visited and it looked dead, and I > have seen small booths where things were going great. The booth has to > have some color to be visible, and you have to have your folks out in > front of the booth engaging people. There is nothing worse than having > your folks mull around in the back of the booth with nothing going on. > > Based on my recent travels, there will be lots of activity at your > booth. I go to these conferences, and the first hour, I am thinking, > "Man, I should be reading email instead of standing around doing > nothing", then people find me and I am talking to PostgreSQL users for > the rest of the entire day --- it happens every time, so be ready. Make > sure to wear name tags so people can indentify you from your emails --- > that's how they find you and know who you are so they can go up and talk > to you, and it makes their day, and you will get a great lift from the > experience. Of course, they aren't really thanking me, but all of you > who work on PostgreSQL, and I point that out. I will concur with Bruce on this ... my experience(s) from having booths at several conferences so far has been that the mornings start off 'quiet' but build up quite quickly, and we've always had 'the smallest booth' to keep costs down ... "Size doesn't matter" :)