Thread: Automatic language selection
Why does pgadmin have to ask for the language at first start and cannot determine the language from the system locale?
Peter Eisentraut wrote: >Why does pgadmin have to ask for the language at first start and cannot >determine the language from the system locale? > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) > > > I think it's actually good. Not all apps are multi-lingual, and if it didn't mention it, i'd assume it isn't either, at least until i stumbled on something later on. -- Sincerely, Reshat. --- If you see my certificate with this message, you should be able to send me encrypted e-mail. Please consult your e-mail client for details if you would like to do that.
Reshat Sabiq wrote: > > > Peter Eisentraut wrote: > >> Why does pgadmin have to ask for the language at first start and >> cannot determine the language from the system locale? >> >> > I think it's actually good. Not all apps are multi-lingual, and if it > didn't mention it, i'd assume it isn't either, at least until i > stumbled on something later on. > We *could* disable it, but by asking as early as possible the app will come up with the right language immediately. Changing it later in Options will lead to a mixed language until the next restart. Regards, Andreas
Andreas Pflug wrote: > Reshat Sabiq wrote: > >> >> >> Peter Eisentraut wrote: >> >>> Why does pgadmin have to ask for the language at first start and >>> cannot determine the language from the system locale? >>> >>> >> I think it's actually good. Not all apps are multi-lingual, and if it >> didn't mention it, i'd assume it isn't either, at least until i >> stumbled on something later on. >> > We *could* disable it, but by asking as early as possible the app will > come up with the right language immediately. Changing it later in > Options will lead to a mixed language until the next restart. > Forgot to mention: If selecting "Default", the system locale *is* used, as it is to display the language selection box. We had a bug not storing the user's choice for "Default" to configuration which was fixed yesterday. Regards, Andreas
Andreas Pflug wrote: > We *could* disable it, but by asking as early as possible the app > will come up with the right language immediately. Changing it later > in Options will lead to a mixed language until the next restart. My point is that it shouldn't have to ask at all. It should look at the system locale. (This should actually happen automatically if you use gettext.) In my day-to-day work I use dozens of applications, they're (almost) all localized, but not one except pgadmin ever asked me which language I wanted to use, because they know already.
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>Andreas Pflug wrote:
>
>
>To me this is not so much a question of functionality, it's a question
>of user interface design: don't bother the user with unnecessary
>questions. The application works perfectly well with the default
>(system locale) language, and the vast majority of users probably never
>want to change it. It's okay to have a menu entry to change the
>language (although personally I find it unnecessary), but you don't
>need to ask on startup. Imagine if every GUI application you started
>asked for the language the first time. You would never get any work
>done. It's also not helped by the fact that normally Afrikaans is the
>default choice and you need to scroll around to find other popular
>languages. I've seen people look at the pgAdmin language selection
>dialog and most were puzzled or annoyed ("Where is my language?", "Why
>does it have to ask this?", "Why can't pgAdmin work like the other
>apps?").
>
>
User's annoyance is a strong argument. How do the others think about that?
The initial message box is meant as something like installation
postprocessing.
For sure, the option to change language is very necessary. Many people
have different language installations from their native language. Think
of German sysadmins who like to install English OS versions (e.g. me,
esp. Windows, chance for support is much better), but might like to use
a localized tool.
Regards,
Andreas
Regards,
Andreas
Andreas Pflug wrote:
> Forgot to mention:
> If selecting "Default", the system locale *is* used, as it is to
> display the language selection box. We had a bug not storing the
> user's choice for "Default" to configuration which was fixed
> yesterday.
To me this is not so much a question of functionality, it's a question
of user interface design: don't bother the user with unnecessary
questions. The application works perfectly well with the default
(system locale) language, and the vast majority of users probably never
want to change it. It's okay to have a menu entry to change the
language (although personally I find it unnecessary), but you don't
need to ask on startup. Imagine if every GUI application you started
asked for the language the first time. You would never get any work
done. It's also not helped by the fact that normally Afrikaans is the
default choice and you need to scroll around to find other popular
languages. I've seen people look at the pgAdmin language selection
dialog and most were puzzled or annoyed ("Where is my language?", "Why
does it have to ask this?", "Why can't pgAdmin work like the other
apps?").
Although you have a point, i still think asking for a locale provides advantages:<br /> 1. Some system locales might
notbe supported.<br /> 2. Multilingual people might want to choose a locale other than their system locale.<br /> 3.
Someusers don't have admin privileges to change their system locale (schools).<br /> with only a tiny disadvantage:<br
/>1. Users need to click the Enter key to choose the default locale once when they launch it the first time (the
messagethere could make it a little clearer where default is coming from). I think clicking Enter once is not a big
deal.<br/><br /> My 2 cents.<br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Sincerely,
Reshat.
---
If you see my certificate with this message, you should be able to send me encrypted e-mail.
Please consult your e-mail client for details if you would like to do that.</pre><br /><br /> Peter Eisentraut
wrote:<br/><blockquote cite="mid200403261752.03127.peter_e@gmx.net" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Andreas Pflug wrote:
</pre><blockquotetype="cite"><pre wrap="">Forgot to mention:
If selecting "Default", the system locale *is* used, as it is to
display the language selection box. We had a bug not storing the
user's choice for "Default" to configuration which was fixed
yesterday. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
To me this is not so much a question of functionality, it's a question
of user interface design: don't bother the user with unnecessary
questions. The application works perfectly well with the default
(system locale) language, and the vast majority of users probably never
want to change it. It's okay to have a menu entry to change the
language (although personally I find it unnecessary), but you don't
need to ask on startup. Imagine if every GUI application you started
asked for the language the first time. You would never get any work
done. It's also not helped by the fact that normally Afrikaans is the
default choice and you need to scroll around to find other popular
languages. I've seen people look at the pgAdmin language selection
dialog and most were puzzled or annoyed ("Where is my language?", "Why
does it have to ask this?", "Why can't pgAdmin work like the other
apps?").
</pre></blockquote><br />
Also, it could ask for a language selection, providing system locale as
default, and automatically choosing the default if no action is taken
within 10 seconds. I think this is the best approach (how arrogant of me
:)).
--
Sincerely,
Reshat.
---
If you see my certificate with this message, you should be able to send me encrypted e-mail.
Please consult your e-mail client for details if you would like to do that.
Andreas Pflug wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
>> Andreas Pflug wrote:
>>
>>
>> To me this is not so much a question of functionality, it's a
>> question of user interface design: don't bother the user with
>> unnecessary questions. The application works perfectly well with the
>> default (system locale) language, and the vast majority of users
>> probably never want to change it. It's okay to have a menu entry to
>> change the language (although personally I find it unnecessary), but
>> you don't need to ask on startup. Imagine if every GUI application
>> you started asked for the language the first time. You would never
>> get any work done. It's also not helped by the fact that normally
>> Afrikaans is the default choice and you need to scroll around to find
>> other popular languages. I've seen people look at the pgAdmin
>> language selection dialog and most were puzzled or annoyed ("Where is
>> my language?", "Why does it have to ask this?", "Why can't pgAdmin
>> work like the other apps?").
>>
>>
> User's annoyance is a strong argument. How do the others think about
> that?
>
> The initial message box is meant as something like installation
> postprocessing.
> For sure, the option to change language is very necessary. Many people
> have different language installations from their native language.
> Think of German sysadmins who like to install English OS versions
> (e.g. me, esp. Windows, chance for support is much better), but might
> like to use a localized tool.
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
>
>
>
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Peter Eisentraut wrote: >Well, the other tiny disadvantage is that it makes pgAdmin look a bit >foolish. > > > > OK, I give up :-) While the reason to implement that initial language question was just as discussed by Reshat, I now agree that in the vast majority of cases the default system language should be ok for the user. He should be able to locate the options dialog if he likes to change it later. Updated in cvs, backported for 1.0.3, win32 snapshot uploaded. Regards, Andreas
Reshat Sabiq wrote: > Although you have a point, i still think asking for a locale provides > advantages: > 1. Some system locales might not be supported. Unlikely. pgAdmin supports more languages than any other program I know. > 2. Multilingual people might want to choose a locale other than their > system locale. Unlikely. If that were the case, then more programs would offer that functionality. As it stands, pgAdmin is the only one. > 3. Some users don't have admin privileges to change their system > locale (schools). vi .profile > with only a tiny disadvantage: > 1. Users need to click the Enter key to choose the default locale > once when they launch it the first time (the message there could make > it a little clearer where default is coming from). I think clicking > Enter once is not a big deal. Well, the other tiny disadvantage is that it makes pgAdmin look a bit foolish.