Thread: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Dave Page"
Date:
The postgresql.org mail infrastructure is currently deeply intertwined
with the hub.org system. This makes it difficult for the 2 non-hub.org
people who have access to manage the systems, and means that any
problems with hub.org affect us, and any problems caused by us will
affect hub.org customers.

I propose that we build a replacement mail system, tailored to our
needs. This would be built on our existing FreeBSD infrastructure and
would be managed by members of the existing sysadmin team including
myself, Magnus, Stefan and Marc. Further, it has been suggested that
OmniTI may be able to offer assistance.

Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
a project?

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:07:13 +0000
"Dave Page" <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:

> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?
>

+1. I will donate any time required (and hardware if needed).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director |  PostgreSQL political pundit


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?

+1

//Magnus


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
Date:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:07:13 +0000 Dave Page wrote:

> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?

+1 for an own PostgreSQL mail infrastructure.

If you need a helping hand, please let me know.


Kind regards

--             Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Guillaume Lelarge
Date:
Dave Page a écrit :
> [...]
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?
> 

+1 for our own mail infrastructure.


-- 
Guillaume. http://www.postgresqlfr.org http://dalibo.com


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Alvaro Herrera
Date:
Dave Page wrote:

> I propose that we build a replacement mail system, tailored to our
> needs. This would be built on our existing FreeBSD infrastructure and
> would be managed by members of the existing sysadmin team including
> myself, Magnus, Stefan and Marc. Further, it has been suggested that
> OmniTI may be able to offer assistance.
> 
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?

+1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of infrastructure
and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would oppose changing Mj2 for
Mailman, for instance.  (However, whether we use Sendmail or Postfix or
something else entirely I don't care ...)

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:39:34 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> +1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of infrastructure
> and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would oppose changing Mj2
> for Mailman, for instance.  (However, whether we use Sendmail or
> Postfix or something else entirely I don't care ...)

Actually this is a good point. We really should define requirements as
part of this, let's not just do it wholesale. Here are a couple:
* Software must be open source?* Environment must be managed by the community* Attempt to have admins in each of the
followingtimezones  EST  PST  CET  * I believe with those three we have 24x7 coverage* FreeBSD is OS?
 


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake 


- -- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate


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Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Dave Page"
Date:
On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>
>  On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:39:34 -0300
>  Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
>  > +1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of infrastructure
>  > and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would oppose changing Mj2
>  > for Mailman, for instance.  (However, whether we use Sendmail or
>  > Postfix or something else entirely I don't care ...)
>
>  Actually this is a good point. We really should define requirements as
>  part of this, let's not just do it wholesale. Here are a couple:
>
>   * Software must be open source?
>   * Environment must be managed by the community
>   * Attempt to have admins in each of the following timezones
>    EST
>    PST
>    CET
>    * I believe with those three we have 24x7 coverage
>   * FreeBSD is OS?

Please stick to the point of this thread.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
Date:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:48:27 -0700 Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:39:34 -0300
> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>  
> > +1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of infrastructure
> > and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would oppose changing Mj2
> > for Mailman, for instance.  (However, whether we use Sendmail or
> > Postfix or something else entirely I don't care ...)
> 
> Actually this is a good point. We really should define requirements as
> part of this, let's not just do it wholesale.

I'm first for checking, if we find an agreement about either creating a
new mail infrastructure, stabilizing the current situation or (which i
would find pity) doing nothing at all.

The next step, if any, would be to find out, if we need a new domain.
Because in case of a new domain we have a lot more problems to solve
than just the question which software to use.


>  * Environment must be managed by the community

I would say, this question is implicated. If we vote for a new mail
infrastructure, this surely not means to give away this infrastructure
into the hands of another company, or? Or?


>  * Attempt to have admins in each of the following timezones
>    EST
>    PST
>    CET

That's a job for the sysadmin team, not to discuss here. If we need
more helping hands in this team, this can be discussed and solved in
another thread.


>  * FreeBSD is OS?

Same thing -> sysadmin team.


So let's stay on topic. If we have a decision we can create other
mail threads and discuss the details.


Thank you & kind regards

--             Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
> 
> > I propose that we build a replacement mail system, tailored to our
> > needs. This would be built on our existing FreeBSD infrastructure and
> > would be managed by members of the existing sysadmin team including
> > myself, Magnus, Stefan and Marc. Further, it has been suggested that
> > OmniTI may be able to offer assistance.
> > 
> > Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> > a project?
> 
> +1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of infrastructure
> and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would oppose changing Mj2 for
> Mailman, for instance.  (However, whether we use Sendmail or Postfix or
> something else entirely I don't care ...)

Agreed.  I think the proposal is to move the FreeBSD jails in their
entirety to servers that a community team can manage.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Stefan Kaltenbrunner
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> The postgresql.org mail infrastructure is currently deeply intertwined
> with the hub.org system. This makes it difficult for the 2 non-hub.org
> people who have access to manage the systems, and means that any
> problems with hub.org affect us, and any problems caused by us will
> affect hub.org customers.

yeah - I think this fact adds quite some complexity to the whole system 
- and keeping things simple is quite often a really good concept.

> 
> I propose that we build a replacement mail system, tailored to our
> needs. This would be built on our existing FreeBSD infrastructure and
> would be managed by members of the existing sysadmin team including
> myself, Magnus, Stefan and Marc. Further, it has been suggested that
> OmniTI may be able to offer assistance.
> 
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?

well such a project would be a fairly large undertaking and needs to be 
planned properly - but +1 on the idea of decoupling the hub.org 
infrastructure from the postgresql.org on at least a logical (ie 
seperate jails) level.


Stefan


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:53:31 +0000
"Dave Page" <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Joshua D. Drake
> <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >  Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> >  On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:39:34 -0300
> >  Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> >
> >  > +1 to the project -- assuming that it means a change of
> >  > infrastructure and not necessarily of tools.  I, for one, would
> >  > oppose changing Mj2 for Mailman, for instance.  (However,
> >  > whether we use Sendmail or Postfix or something else entirely I
> >  > don't care ...)
> >
> >  Actually this is a good point. We really should define
> > requirements as part of this, let's not just do it wholesale. Here
> > are a couple:
> >
> >   * Software must be open source?
> >   * Environment must be managed by the community
> >   * Attempt to have admins in each of the following timezones
> >    EST
> >    PST
> >    CET
> >    * I believe with those three we have 24x7 coverage
> >   * FreeBSD is OS?
> 
> Please stick to the point of this thread.

Sorry I wasn't trying to diverge.

Joshua D. Drake 


- -- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate


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Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
Date:
Hi,

On Sat, 2008-03-22 at 16:07 +0000, Dave Page wrote:
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?

+1.
--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ , RHCE
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
Please note that as much as Bruce seems to be misguided into thinking this
has something to do with the WWW setup, it isn't ... changes in this
infrastructure will be (and is being) discussed on -core, specifically
between Tom, Dave and myself ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy@hub.org                              MSN . scrappy@hub.org
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Devrim G�ND�Z wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, 2008-03-22 at 16:07 +0000, Dave Page wrote:
>> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
>> a project?
>
> +1.
> --
> Devrim GÜNDÜZ , RHCE
> PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
> Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
> Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>

Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> Please note that as much as Bruce seems to be misguided into thinking this
> has something to do with the WWW setup, it isn't ... changes in this
> infrastructure will be (and is being) discussed on -core, specifically
> between Tom, Dave and myself ...

People ask about all infrastructure issues on this list.  If there is an
email problem, historically we have talked about it here.

Do you want to set this list to moderated like Josh Berkus did with
advocacy?  (That didn't work out to well, as I remember).  You want to
set up a move-the-infrastructure email list?  (That didn't work out well
either.)

"Don't like the message, stop them from communicating."  I thought we
learned from the advocacy debacle.

It is true we are discussing this on core too but shouldn't stop
discussion here.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Dave Page"
Date:
On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> wrote:
>
>  Please note that as much as Bruce seems to be misguided into thinking this
>  has something to do with the WWW setup, it isn't ... changes in this
>  infrastructure will be (and is being) discussed on -core, specifically
>  between Tom, Dave and myself ...

I would argue that it's a sysadmin team issue to resolve (the lead
people in that group being you, me, Stefan and Magnus), however, Bruce
is correct in that the public side of the sysadmin/infrastructure work
does generally end up being discussed on this list.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Dave Page wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> wrote:
>>
>>  Please note that as much as Bruce seems to be misguided into thinking this
>>  has something to do with the WWW setup, it isn't ... changes in this
>>  infrastructure will be (and is being) discussed on -core, specifically
>>  between Tom, Dave and myself ...
>
> I would argue that it's a sysadmin team issue to resolve (the lead
> people in that group being you, me, Stefan and Magnus)

it would be an easy argument to make too ...


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:
Just a short top-post here ... as I mentioned before, Dave/Tom/I have been 
discussing this issue on -core, with it degenerating to 'Dave/I' ... we 
have a plan to move forward on this based on discussions that actually 
happened a couple of weeks ago as a percursor to this ...

Dave/I will be posting a summary of our scheduale/plan to sysadmins later 
this evening, as this is an infrastructure, not WWW, issue ...

Thank you ...


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy@hub.org                              MSN . scrappy@hub.org
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Dave Page wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Please note that as much as Bruce seems to be misguided into thinking 
>>> this
>>>  has something to do with the WWW setup, it isn't ... changes in this
>>>  infrastructure will be (and is being) discussed on -core, specifically
>>>  between Tom, Dave and myself ...
>> 
>> I would argue that it's a sysadmin team issue to resolve (the lead
>> people in that group being you, me, Stefan and Magnus)
>
> it would be an easy argument to make too ...
>
> -- 
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> Just a short top-post here ... as I mentioned before, Dave/Tom/I have 
> been discussing this issue on -core, with it degenerating to 'Dave/I' 
> ... we have a plan to move forward on this based on discussions that 
> actually happened a couple of weeks ago as a percursor to this ...
> 
> Dave/I will be posting a summary of our scheduale/plan to sysadmins 
> later this evening, as this is an infrastructure, not WWW, issue ...
> 
> Thank you ...

Thanks Marc! I appreciate seeing this move forward!

//Magnus


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Magnus Hagander wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> 
>> Just a short top-post here ... as I mentioned before, Dave/Tom/I have been 
>> discussing this issue on -core, with it degenerating to 'Dave/I' ... we 
>> have a plan to move forward on this based on discussions that actually 
>> happened a couple of weeks ago as a percursor to this ...
>> 
>> Dave/I will be posting a summary of our scheduale/plan to sysadmins later 
>> this evening, as this is an infrastructure, not WWW, issue ...
>> 
>> Thank you ...
>
> Thanks Marc! I appreciate seeing this move forward!

NP ... I hadn't even realized that our previous talks on this *had* 
stalled, but I suspect Bruce missed that thread and jump'd in between us 
having an agreed on target, and actually implementing it ...

It happens.


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> > Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> >> 
> >> Just a short top-post here ... as I mentioned before, Dave/Tom/I have been 
> >> discussing this issue on -core, with it degenerating to 'Dave/I' ... we 
> >> have a plan to move forward on this based on discussions that actually 
> >> happened a couple of weeks ago as a percursor to this ...
> >> 
> >> Dave/I will be posting a summary of our scheduale/plan to sysadmins later 
> >> this evening, as this is an infrastructure, not WWW, issue ...
> >> 
> >> Thank you ...
> >
> > Thanks Marc! I appreciate seeing this move forward!
> 
> NP ... I hadn't even realized that our previous talks on this *had* 
> stalled, but I suspect Bruce missed that thread and jump'd in between us 
> having an agreed on target, and actually implementing it ...
> 
> It happens.

Frankly, I don't care what the outcome of this is as long as other
people feel we are moving forward.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
"Marc G. Fournier"
Date:

> Frankly, I don't care what the outcome of this is as long as other 
> people feel we are moving forward.

Well, considering that Magnus was the one (if I recall correctly) was the 
one that was advocating the direction that we had decided to take, and he 
wasn't doing much pushing (which I know he will do if it is taking too 
long), I suspect that you are about the only one feeling impatient with 
how fast this was going ...





Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, I don't care what the outcome of this is as long as other 
> > people feel we are moving forward.
> 
> Well, considering that Magnus was the one (if I recall correctly) was the 
> one that was advocating the direction that we had decided to take, and he 
> wasn't doing much pushing (which I know he will do if it is taking too 
> long), I suspect that you are about the only one feeling impatient with 
> how fast this was going ...

After out outage this week, with few people able to help, many of
us were frustrated.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
David Fetter
Date:
On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 04:07:13PM +0000, Dave Page wrote:
> The postgresql.org mail infrastructure is currently deeply
> intertwined with the hub.org system. This makes it difficult for the
> 2 non-hub.org people who have access to manage the systems, and
> means that any problems with hub.org affect us, and any problems
> caused by us will affect hub.org customers.
> 
> I propose that we build a replacement mail system, tailored to our
> needs. This would be built on our existing FreeBSD infrastructure
> and would be managed by members of the existing sysadmin team
> including myself, Magnus, Stefan and Marc. Further, it has been
> suggested that OmniTI may be able to offer assistance.
> 
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with
> such a project?

+1 for progressing.

Cheers,
David
-- 
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: david.fetter@gmail.com

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
Magnus Hagander
Date:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
>> Frankly, I don't care what the outcome of this is as long as other 
>> people feel we are moving forward.
> 
> Well, considering that Magnus was the one (if I recall correctly) was 
> the one that was advocating the direction that we had decided to take, 
> and he wasn't doing much pushing (which I know he will do if it is 
> taking too long), I suspect that you are about the only one feeling 
> impatient with how fast this was going ...

To be fair, the reason I stopped pushing was that I didn't expect it to 
have any effect. It's not like it's had it before.

But that was for getting it started. once it's started and we're in 
agreement that things should be done, we should be sure to plan it out 
properly before we actually start pulling things apart, of course! Just 
so things don't stall...

//Magnus


Re: postgresql.org mail infrastructure

From
damien clochard
Date:
>
> Can I please get a show of hands for and against progressing with such
> a project?
>

+1


-- 
damien clochard
http://dalibo.org | http://dalibo.com