Thread: Need license clarification on some web graphics

Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Robert Treat
Date:
I've recieved a submission of some postgresql related web graphics that I was
planning to add to the graphics repository.  While I was uploading them the
thought hit me that we might have a problem with some of these. First two
examples of ones that are ok:

http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/2_160x600.gif
http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/14_160x600.gif

both very nice and wonderful, but I am wondering about this one:

http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/15_160x600.gif

It uses the "photo elephant" which I not sure what the license status is. The
relevant link in the archives seems to be
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00290.php
but it is less than definitive since we would not be using these images on the
postgresql website per say, they would be out in the wild (though under a cc
license).  I have about a dozen more of these using the "photo elephant" so
before I put them up, can I get an ok from someone?

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Robert Treat
Date:
On Saturday 11 February 2006 10:50, Robert Treat wrote:
> I've recieved a submission of some postgresql related web graphics that I
> was planning to add to the graphics repository.  While I was uploading them
> the thought hit me that we might have a problem with some of these. First
> two examples of ones that are ok:
>
> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/2_160x600.gif
> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/14_160x600.gif
>
> both very nice and wonderful, but I am wondering about this one:
>
> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/15_160x600.gif
>
> It uses the "photo elephant" which I not sure what the license status is.
> The relevant link in the archives seems to be
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00290.php
> but it is less than definitive since we would not be using these images on
> the postgresql website per say, they would be out in the wild (though under
> a cc license).  I have about a dozen more of these using the "photo
> elephant" so before I put them up, can I get an ok from someone?

So I guess given no response in 48 hours, I should assume that these photos
are legally poisoned?  In that case can we get a new elephant photo that we
can use on the website and in web buttons? Joshua, you mentioned something
way back when about making a replacement pic, how about now?

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
Robert Treat wrote:
> On Saturday 11 February 2006 10:50, Robert Treat wrote:
>
>> I've recieved a submission of some postgresql related web graphics that I
>> was planning to add to the graphics repository.  While I was uploading them
>> the thought hit me that we might have a problem with some of these. First
>> two examples of ones that are ok:
>>
>> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/2_160x600.gif
>> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/14_160x600.gif
>>
>> both very nice and wonderful, but I am wondering about this one:
>>
>> http://xzilla.postgresql.org/layout/images/15_160x600.gif
>>
>> It uses the "photo elephant" which I not sure what the license status is.
>> The relevant link in the archives seems to be
>> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00290.php
>> but it is less than definitive since we would not be using these images on
>> the postgresql website per say, they would be out in the wild (though under
>> a cc license).  I have about a dozen more of these using the "photo
>> elephant" so before I put them up, can I get an ok from someone?
>>
>
> So I guess given no response in 48 hours, I should assume that these photos
> are legally poisoned?  In that case can we get a new elephant photo that we
> can use on the website and in web buttons? Joshua, you mentioned something
> way back when about making a replacement pic, how about now?
>
Are you speaking to this Joshua?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




--
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PLphp, PLperl - http://www.commandprompt.com/


Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Emily Boyd
Date:
Robert Treat wrote:
> It uses the "photo elephant" which I not sure what the license status is. The
> relevant link in the archives seems to be
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00290.php
> but it is less than definitive since we would not be using these images on the
> postgresql website per say, they would be out in the wild (though under a cc
> license).  I have about a dozen more of these using the "photo elephant" so
> before I put them up, can I get an ok from someone?

 From http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00283.php

"The elephant in the announcement box on the front page is a licensed
derivative work of a royalty free image, and Emily Boyd grants the
PostgreSQL Global Development Group the right to use said image on the
postgresql.org website."

"Use by PostgreSQL International sites is possible, but a right to use
must be granted by Emily Boyd for each licensee, as per the terms of the
original license on the image."

I can permit the use of the elephant in specific images (so that it can
be used on PostgreSQL International sites or in advertising), and there
is absolutely no problem with this. However, the elephant can't be
relicensed under a CC license (due to the terms of the original license
on the image).

Regards,
Emily

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Josh Berkus
Date:
Robert,

> So I guess given no response in 48 hours, I should assume that these photos
> are legally poisoned?  In that case can we get a new elephant photo that we
> can use on the website and in web buttons? Joshua, you mentioned something
> way back when about making a replacement pic, how about now?

I think Bruce has some pictures of Elephants.  Bruce?

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Bruce Momjian
Date:
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > So I guess given no response in 48 hours, I should assume that these photos
> > are legally poisoned?  In that case can we get a new elephant photo that we
> > can use on the website and in web buttons? Joshua, you mentioned something
> > way back when about making a replacement pic, how about now?
>
> I think Bruce has some pictures of Elephants.  Bruce?

Uh, what kind of picture do you need?

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
"Joshua D. Drake"
Date:
>> I think Bruce has some pictures of Elephants.  Bruce?
>>
>
> Uh, what kind of picture do you need?
>
If we really need a real elephant... I can go to the zoo ;) Otherwise we
can easily mock up an art based elephant.

Joshua D. Drake



--
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PLphp, PLperl - http://www.commandprompt.com/


Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Emily Boyd
> Sent: 14 February 2006 03:52
> To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Need license clarification on some
> web graphics
>
> I can permit the use of the elephant in specific images (so
> that it can
> be used on PostgreSQL International sites or in advertising),
> and there
> is absolutely no problem with this. However, the elephant can't be
> relicensed under a CC license (due to the terms of the
> original license
> on the image).

Which is great, but as the entire site is and always has been offered
for anyone to use under the BSD licence that simply won't work because
we have no sensible practical way of excluding specific files from the
licence advertised on the project site.

Regards, Dave

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Emily Boyd
Date:
Dave Page wrote:
> Which is great, but as the entire site is and always has been offered
> for anyone to use under the BSD licence that simply won't work because
> we have no sensible practical way of excluding specific files from the
> licence advertised on the project site.

As Tom Lane said when this was first raised over a year ago:

"The BSD license is not antithetical to living beside non-free stuff
(unlike GPL). I agree it would be a good idea to point out somewhere in
the relevant docs that the elephant image isn't BSD'd, just so no one
mistakenly thinks it is."

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00278.php

Omar Kilani also proposed the text to exclude the image from the BSD
license -- I'm not sure if this was ever added to a license file, but
that's where it belongs.

As this was resolved, and the image has been used on the website since
December 2004, I'm not sure why it's necessary to expend resources
debating this issue again.

Anyway, as I said, there is no problem using the image for any
PostgreSQL-related websites or graphics so long as the original license
is adhered to.

Regards,
Emily

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Emily Boyd
> Sent: 14 February 2006 11:57
> To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Need license clarification on some
> web graphics
>
> Dave Page wrote:
> > Which is great, but as the entire site is and always has
> been offered
> > for anyone to use under the BSD licence that simply won't
> work because
> > we have no sensible practical way of excluding specific
> files from the
> > licence advertised on the project site.
>
> As Tom Lane said when this was first raised over a year ago:
>
> "The BSD license is not antithetical to living beside non-free stuff
> (unlike GPL). I agree it would be a good idea to point out
> somewhere in
> the relevant docs that the elephant image isn't BSD'd, just so no one
> mistakenly thinks it is."
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00278.php

Yes, I know what Tom said and don't disagree with him, however he missed
my point. The Gborg site quite clearly states that the entire project is
BSD licenced and to exclude individual files from that licence and
inform the user through a readme somewhere may easily be misconstrued as
misleading and confusing.

Regards, Dave

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Robert Treat
Date:
On Tuesday 14 February 2006 06:57, Emily Boyd wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
> > Which is great, but as the entire site is and always has been offered
> > for anyone to use under the BSD licence that simply won't work because
> > we have no sensible practical way of excluding specific files from the
> > licence advertised on the project site.
>
> As Tom Lane said when this was first raised over a year ago:
>
> "The BSD license is not antithetical to living beside non-free stuff
> (unlike GPL). I agree it would be a good idea to point out somewhere in
> the relevant docs that the elephant image isn't BSD'd, just so no one
> mistakenly thinks it is."
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-12/msg00278.php
>
> Omar Kilani also proposed the text to exclude the image from the BSD
> license -- I'm not sure if this was ever added to a license file, but
> that's where it belongs.
>
> As this was resolved, and the image has been used on the website since
> December 2004, I'm not sure why it's necessary to expend resources
> debating this issue again.
>

It wouldn't be if this were just about us using on the website, but we now
have people re-using the image in material that is not controlled by the
PostgreSQL "web team", which istm is the type of use that we are supposed to
be preventing.

> Anyway, as I said, there is no problem using the image for any
> PostgreSQL-related websites or graphics so long as the original license
> is adhered to.
>

As much as I like that picture, my feeling is it isn't worth it to use the
photo if we can't release it under a creative-commons license. Allowing
people to remix postgresql related content into their own materials has
always been the general policy of the PostgreSQL community, and I see no
benefit from going away from that policy in this case; I know I certainly
don't want to have to be the license police for people far removed from the
project who want to modify these graphics for their own use.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
Tom Lane
Date:
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> As much as I like that picture, my feeling is it isn't worth it to use the
> photo if we can't release it under a creative-commons license.

I'm coming around to this point of view as well.  It can't be that hard
to find an elephant picture that's out of copyright ...

            regards, tom lane

Re: Need license clarification on some web graphics

From
"Dave Page"
Date:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane
> Sent: 14 February 2006 15:15
> To: Robert Treat
> Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Emily Boyd
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Need license clarification on some
> web graphics
>
> Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> > As much as I like that picture, my feeling is it isn't
> worth it to use the
> > photo if we can't release it under a creative-commons license.
>
> I'm coming around to this point of view as well.  It can't be
> that hard
> to find an elephant picture that's out of copyright ...

Come to think of it, the pgAdmin elephant is an original from Andreas
Pflug. It's certainly under Artistic Licence from us, probably BSD if we
ask him nicely (if anyone wants to of course).

http://www.pgadmin.org/

Regards, Dave.