Thread: Scripts again
Okay, I have the following voting results:
2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me)
1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.)
1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc)
1/2 for leave as is (Thomas)
1 for drop altogether (Marc)
Well, since this is not on the immediate agenda I'll leave it open for a
while, but you see the leading vote getter.
In addition I'll add a configure option --with-pragmatic-scrappy which
will prevent the installation of the scripts altogether.
-Peter
> Okay, I have the following voting results: > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me) > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.) > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc) > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas) > 1 for drop altogether (Marc) I can go for pg_createdb too. > > Well, since this is not on the immediate agenda I'll leave it open for a > while, but you see the leading vote getter. > > In addition I'll add a configure option --with-pragmatic-scrappy which > will prevent the installation of the scripts altogether. I like that. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle maillist@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
On 13-Oct-99 Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Okay, I have the following voting results:
>
> 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me)
> 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.)
Me too ...
Another method is
pgadm createdb ....
> 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc)
> 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas)
> 1 for drop altogether (Marc)
>
> Well, since this is not on the immediate agenda I'll leave it open for a
> while, but you see the leading vote getter.
>
> In addition I'll add a configure option --with-pragmatic-scrappy which
> will prevent the installation of the scripts altogether.
>
> -Peter
>
>
>
> ************
---
Dmitry Samersoff, dms@wplus.net, ICQ:3161705
http://devnull.wplus.net
* There will come soft rains ...
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Okay, I have the following voting results:
> >
> > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me)
> > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.)
> > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc)
> > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas)
> > 1 for drop altogether (Marc)
>
> I can go for pg_createdb too.
>
> >
> > Well, since this is not on the immediate agenda I'll leave it open for a
> > while, but you see the leading vote getter.
> >
> > In addition I'll add a configure option --with-pragmatic-scrappy which
> > will prevent the installation of the scripts altogether.
>
> I like that.
Okay, who invited this guy? :) How about drop'ng them unlessthe configure
with a --with-hand-holding option? or even --disable-sql? :)
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Okay, I have the following voting results: > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me) > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.) > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc) > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas) > 1 for drop altogether (Marc) I vote with Thomas - leave as is. But I don't understand the tallying. Did Thomas shrink so as to only get a halfa vote? :) Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include <std/disclaimers.h> Have you seenhttp://www.pop4.net? Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
On Oct 13, The Hermit Hacker mentioned: > On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > Okay, I have the following voting results: > > > > > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me) > > > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.) > > > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc) > > > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas) > > > 1 for drop altogether (Marc) > > > > I can go for pg_createdb too. > > > > > > > > Well, since this is not on the immediate agenda I'll leave it open for a > > > while, but you see the leading vote getter. > > > > > > In addition I'll add a configure option --with-pragmatic-scrappy which > > > will prevent the installation of the scripts altogether. > > > > I like that. > > Okay, who invited this guy? :) How about drop'ng them unlessthe configure > with a --with-hand-holding option? or even --disable-sql? :) I like that even better. Watch out, it might become a standard option in autoconf soon. -- Peter Eisentraut Sernanders vaeg 10:115 peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
On Oct 13, Vince Vielhaber mentioned: > On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > Okay, I have the following voting results: > > > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me) > > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.) > > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc) > > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas) > > 1 for drop altogether (Marc) > > I vote with Thomas - leave as is. But I don't understand the tallying. > Did Thomas shrink so as to only get a halfa vote? :) He didn't make his opinion exactly clear, except that the underscores are a sign of the coming apocalypse. (If you ask Marc, he can probably give you an alternate theory here...) I suppose that would subtract another half vote from the underscore option. With Bruce's defection and my own change of mind we now stand at 0 pgblah 3 1/2 pg_blah (Bruce, Sergio K, Dmitry S, -1/2 Thomas, myself) 1/2 pgadddb (Marc) 1 1/2 as is (Thomas, Vince) 1 none (Marc) Hmm, I guess that does it. pg_createdb and symlinks for one release with warnings for deprecated forms. Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were working on that anyway, right? -Peter -- Peter Eisentraut Sernanders vaeg 10:115 peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> 0 pgblah
> 3 1/2 pg_blah (Bruce, Sergio K, Dmitry S, -1/2 Thomas, myself)
> 1/2 pgadddb (Marc)
> 1 1/2 as is (Thomas, Vince)
> 1 none (Marc)
>
> Hmm, I guess that does it. pg_createdb and symlinks for one release with
> warnings for deprecated forms.
Make the whole thing configurable and anyone should be happy.
--pg_admin_script_prefix={pg_|pg|*empty*|*whatever_you_prefer*}
--pg_admin_script_install={yes|no}
It's not a joke. Someone might want to have his user account
to have access to his production and test DB at the same
time. So he could setup his PATH to both installations bin
directories and configure the test DB to use a different
default PGPORT and different script prefixes. Then
pg_createdb would contact another postmaster than
devel_createdb would do. Well, the installed binaries like
psql would need some configurable prefix too then.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#========================================= wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck) #
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jan Wieck wrote:
> Make the whole thing configurable and anyone should be happy.
>
> --pg_admin_script_prefix={pg_|pg|*empty*|*whatever_you_prefer*}
> --pg_admin_script_install={yes|no}
Way initially I was suggesting--enable-scripts=old|new|both|none (default new)
but Bruce found *that* too complicated.
I can see your point here, accessing different db installations, but I
think that is a highly specialized case (and you should be using psql
anyway, but that seems to be a culture issue).
But the scripts have no concept of default ports etc., that's in libpq. So
you can use pg_createdb for whatever your default install is, and
pg_createdb -p foo for your alternate installation. Or you could alias
this or something.
(Btw., anyone else think a /etc/services entry is better than a hardwired
default port, at least on the libpq side of things? Of course, I'm not
sure about Windows here.)
>
> It's not a joke. Someone might want to have his user account
> to have access to his production and test DB at the same
> time. So he could setup his PATH to both installations bin
> directories and configure the test DB to use a different
> default PGPORT and different script prefixes. Then
> pg_createdb would contact another postmaster than
> devel_createdb would do. Well, the installed binaries like
> psql would need some configurable prefix too then.
>
>
> Jan
>
--
Peter Eisentraut Sernanders vaeg 10:115
peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala
http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> (Btw., anyone else think a /etc/services entry is better than a hardwired
> default port, at least on the libpq side of things? Of course, I'm not
> sure about Windows here.)
Would require root intervention to install, which is something that we've
always avoided, and discouraged...
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
At 6:17 AM -0700 10/14/99, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > >> (Btw., anyone else think a /etc/services entry is better than a hardwired >> default port, at least on the libpq side of things? Of course, I'm not >> sure about Windows here.) > >Would require root intervention to install, which is something that we've >always avoided, and discouraged... Wouldn't it make it harder to build test installations running on the same machine as a production server? Signature failed Preliminary Design Review. Feasibility of a new signature is currently being evaluated. h.b.hotz@jpl.nasa.gov, or hbhotz@oxy.edu
> > > Okay, I have the following voting results:
> > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me)
> > > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.)
> > > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc)
> > > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas)
> > > 1 for drop altogether (Marc)
> > I vote with Thomas - leave as is. But I don't understand the tallying.
> > Did Thomas shrink so as to only get a halfa vote? :)
> He didn't make his opinion exactly clear, except that the underscores are
> a sign of the coming apocalypse. (If you ask Marc, he can probably give
> you an alternate theory here...)
OK, let me be clear. imho there is no strong consensus on this, which
would lead us toward *leave it as it is*! I'll put Marc (motto: "no
wusses!") on the lunatic fringe for suggesting that we drop all user
conveniences, but istm that we are solving a problem which isn't a
problem. And we are changing the user interface which has been in
place for (at least) the last three years based on no documented name
space conflict and no widely reported problems from users.
I can see how some might want some clearer way to figure out available
postgres command-line commands using ls and grep. If so, prepending
"pg" will help, but forget the underscores and convince more of us
that it is necessary, please. Why should a regular user have to type
the extra two characters anyway? Should we mention in the v7.0 release
notes that we are now "carpal tunnel hostile"??
> Hmm, I guess that does it. pg_createdb and symlinks for one release with
> warnings for deprecated forms.
ack!
> Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make
> mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were
> working on that anyway, right?
sigh. We should get rid of all of the other language interfaces too;
any real programmer can do it with psql and bash. Hmm, maybe even psql
is a luxury ;)
- Thomas
--
Thomas Lockhart lockhart@alumni.caltech.edu
South Pasadena, California
Topic dropped. But users should be made aware that all createdb does is call psql and the create database SQL statement, so they see how it fits together. But I think I have to agree with your general point here. -Peter On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Thomas Lockhart wrote: > > > > Okay, I have the following voting results: > > > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me) > > > > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.) > > > > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc) > > > > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas) > > > > 1 for drop altogether (Marc) > > > I vote with Thomas - leave as is. But I don't understand the tallying. > > > Did Thomas shrink so as to only get a halfa vote? :) > > He didn't make his opinion exactly clear, except that the underscores are > > a sign of the coming apocalypse. (If you ask Marc, he can probably give > > you an alternate theory here...) > > OK, let me be clear. imho there is no strong consensus on this, which > would lead us toward *leave it as it is*! I'll put Marc (motto: "no > wusses!") on the lunatic fringe for suggesting that we drop all user > conveniences, but istm that we are solving a problem which isn't a > problem. And we are changing the user interface which has been in > place for (at least) the last three years based on no documented name > space conflict and no widely reported problems from users. > > I can see how some might want some clearer way to figure out available > postgres command-line commands using ls and grep. If so, prepending > "pg" will help, but forget the underscores and convince more of us > that it is necessary, please. Why should a regular user have to type > the extra two characters anyway? Should we mention in the v7.0 release > notes that we are now "carpal tunnel hostile"?? > > > Hmm, I guess that does it. pg_createdb and symlinks for one release with > > warnings for deprecated forms. > > ack! > > > Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make > > mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were > > working on that anyway, right? > > sigh. We should get rid of all of the other language interfaces too; > any real programmer can do it with psql and bash. Hmm, maybe even psql > is a luxury ;) > > - Thomas > > -- Peter Eisentraut Sernanders vaeg 10:115 peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > Topic dropped. > > But users should be made aware that all createdb does is call psql and the > create database SQL statement, so they see how it fits together. But I > think I have to agree with your general point here. > Maybe it should just echo out the commands given through psql, unless some switch (like -s for silent) is given ? ----------------- Hannu
> > Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make
> > mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were
> > working on that anyway, right?
>
> sigh. We should get rid of all of the other language interfaces too;
> any real programmer can do it with psql and bash. Hmm, maybe even psql
> is a luxury ;)
Real programmers don't use a database at all. If they can,
they even avoid using a filesystem or any other help of an
OS, because they love to know exactly where their data is
left.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#========================================= wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck) #
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Jan Wieck wrote: > > > Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make > > > mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were > > > working on that anyway, right? > > > > sigh. We should get rid of all of the other language interfaces too; > > any real programmer can do it with psql and bash. Hmm, maybe even psql > > is a luxury ;) > > Real programmers don't use a database at all. If they can, > they even avoid using a filesystem or any other help of an > OS, because they love to know exactly where their data is > left. You use an OS? Okay, people, let's cut the crap. It wasn't my idea. Someone asked about it and Bruce said something to the effect that this was something that you wanted to do anyway. So I asked around for a vote and got a result. I couldn't guess that this could cause so much heartbreak with some people. Let's forget about it and let people use whatever tool (with whatever name) they damn well want. -Peter -- Peter Eisentraut Sernanders vaeg 10:115 peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> > > > Okay, I have the following voting results:
> > > > 2 for pgcreatedb, pgdropdb, pgcreateuser, pgdropuser (Bruce, me)
> > > > 1 for pg_createdb, pg_dropdb, etc. (Sergio K.)
> > > > 1/2 for pgadduser, etc., or sth. like that (Marc)
> > > > 1/2 for leave as is (Thomas)
> > > > 1 for drop altogether (Marc)
> > > I vote with Thomas - leave as is. But I don't understand the tallying.
> > > Did Thomas shrink so as to only get a halfa vote? :)
> > He didn't make his opinion exactly clear, except that the underscores are
> > a sign of the coming apocalypse. (If you ask Marc, he can probably give
> > you an alternate theory here...)
>
> OK, let me be clear. imho there is no strong consensus on this, which
> would lead us toward *leave it as it is*! I'll put Marc (motto: "no
> wusses!") on the lunatic fringe for suggesting that we drop all user
> conveniences, but istm that we are solving a problem which isn't a
> problem. And we are changing the user interface which has been in
> place for (at least) the last three years based on no documented name
> space conflict and no widely reported problems from users.
Hear hear!!
> > Perhaps we should really change the installation instructions to not make
> > mention of the scripts, though, to enforce proper learning. But you were
> > working on that anyway, right?
>
> sigh. We should get rid of all of the other language interfaces too;
> any real programmer can do it with psql and bash. Hmm, maybe even psql
> is a luxury ;)
Hrmmmmm...there's a thought, but doesn't that sort of negate your above?
:)
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org